Main Bearing Change HELP!!

[Lee'sdaytona]

Hey everyone. Ok, during my 5-spd trans swap in the caravan, I figured I would attempt to bring the low oil pressure up by replacing the main bearings (replaced the rod bearings last year). I read the main bearing change proceedure and I bought new rear and front main seals. I am concerned first of all about this cotter key to push the upper main bearing out. Can that score the block? I'm working with an '89 2.5 CB Turbo with the Counter balanced shafts. I read the factory service manual on removing them, and its a ton of work: Removing the timing belt, sprocket, chain, intermediate shaft sprocket... and other seals which I didn't buy. Is there an easy way to remove the CB shaft, so I can do the main bearing change? I want to reinstall them too because I read how bad the vibration/noise is in a minivan...especially since I have Poly engine mounts. Any advice truely appreciated. I'm feeling good about the transmission swap and confident. BUT, I am worried about this bearing change, and I need to do it, because I've been running the van for a year now when the oil pressure at 3,000RPM is like 25psi....hot Idle is 10psi. Are there bearings in the CB shaft assembly that I should be replacing? Can I get those locally at autostoned or something?
Thanks,
Lee

[turbovanman²]

Your oil pressure is fine, its a bit low but in spec.

In a nutshell-

Drain oil and remove oil filter.
I would loosen or remove the timing belt using my method of just undoing the cam sprocket and sliding the gear off.
Remove oil pan and oil pump-reduces oil dripping in your face.
Set engine at TDC, remove the front cover from the BS's and note marks, clean off chain with brake cleaner and make some of your own. Loosen off adjuster and remove the 13mm nut on the gear, slide off, leave chain dangling.
Clean off BS's bolts with brake cleaner and use a nice, tight 6 point socket. Make sure your on square and use a breaker bar. Remove bolts and remove BS assembly-ITS HEAVY.
Now remove main bearing caps except #5 as its hidden by the rear main seal retainer.
To get out the upper bearing shells, use a thin screwdriver and tap them out, tang out first. To help you can use a prybar and carefully pry the crank away from the block. When you get them started, you can use an awl or sharp screwdriver to finish pulling the bearing shells out-you don't care if you damage the shells, just don't scratch the crank.
Get the new bearings, wipe clean, put some assembly lube on the crank side and slide into place-again, you might have to pry the crank down a bit, then finish tap the shells into place.
Install the shells on the caps, lay some plastiguage on and reinstall, torque and remove. Measure the plastiguage, if good, clean and lube shells EXCEPT #3-the thrust one. Reinstall the others. Now lube and install #3 but tighten snugly, pry the crank backwards then forwards-this sets the thrust bearing so there aligned. Tighten cap to spec.
Reinstall the BS's, chain, cover, oil pump-maybe a new one? oil pan, timing belt and refill with oil. Take out the spark plugs, disconnect the hep and crank over until you have oil pressure.

Have a beer or 3 and relax,

[Lee'sdaytona]

First of all, Thank you Simon for doing the long type-up. Somehow I knew you would come through for me!

Your oil pressure is fine, its a bit low but in spec.

Now ya tell me It was actually more like 21 at 3,000 but I started using a thicker oil...I think 10W40, your suggestion, to bring up the pressure a bit. I'm not sure I can trust my autometer sport comp oil gauge though. It doesn't go to zero anymore when I shut the car off. It sits around 10psi. Also at idle, it says maybe 10-15 psi, but the check gauges light comes on, when I get to idle speed while hot.

In a nutshell-

Drain oil and remove oil filter.
I would loosen or remove the timing belt using my method of just undoing the cam sprocket and sliding the gear off.
Remove oil pan and oil pump-reduces oil dripping in your face.
Set engine at TDC, remove the front cover from the BS's and note marks, clean off chain with brake cleaner and make some of your own. Loosen off adjuster and remove the 13mm nut on the gear, slide off, leave chain dangling.
Clean off BS's bolts with brake cleaner and use a nice, tight 6 point socket. Make sure your on square and use a breaker bar. Remove bolts and remove BS assembly-ITS HEAVY.
Now remove main bearing caps except #5 as its hidden by the rear main seal retainer.
To get out the upper bearing shells, use a thin screwdriver and tap them out, tang out first. To help you can use a prybar and carefully pry the crank away from the block. When you get them started, you can use an awl or sharp screwdriver to finish pulling the bearing shells out-you don't care if you damage the shells, just don't scratch the crank.
Get the new bearings, wipe clean, put some assembly lube on the crank side and slide into place-again, you might have to pry the crank down a bit, then finish tap the shells into place.

I think I'm good up to this point:

Install the shells on the caps, lay some plastiguage on and reinstall,
torque and remove.
Measure the plastiguage, if good, clean and lube shells

I've never used plastiguage. Is that a regular auto parts buy?
I've taken my chances in the past just swapping new rod bearings in. Might as well learn how to do it right this time. Mind sharing how they are used and where I can buy them?

EXCEPT #3-the thrust one. Reinstall the others. Now lube and install #3 but tighten snugly, pry the crank backwards then forwards-this sets the thrust bearing so there aligned. Tighten cap to spec.
Reinstall the BS's, chain, cover, oil pump-maybe a new one? oil pan, timing belt and refill with oil. Take out the spark plugs, disconnect the hep and crank over until you have oil pressure.
Have a beer or 3 and relax,

I think I'll understand this more once I tear into it and see what I'm working with.
thanks again!
-Lee

[turbovanman²]

Plastiguage is a thin string of plastic, you buy it when you get the bearings, you want the green stuff.

You open the packet, inside is a long thin piece of plastic string, you break a small piece off, aprox 1/2-3/4 of an inch and lay it across the main bearing cap, now carefully put the cap on and tighten. DO NOT move the crank. Now loosen and remove the cap, it is now squished based on how much or little clearance there is. Theres a guage on the package, you are aiming for .0015 to .003"

[Lee'sdaytona]

Well I dove back into the project this morning, starting with a trip to autostoned. Every time I go there, I swear I'll never waste my time there again. They are closer to me than advance. Guess where I ended up? Yaa. Walked out of Autostoned, got everything I needed at advance. (Plastigauge, brakekleen, C/V boot pliers)
OK Pulled the CB shaft thing, which was much easier, thanks to you, Simon, than the FSM made it look. Still not sure why anything with the timeing belt had to be removed. Anyway, Pulled all caps but #5. My trans is out, and I plan to replace the rear main seal. Should I replace bearings 1-4, tighten caps, than remove and replace #5? the FSM shows some special cone shaped tool to install the Rear Main seal...is that necessary? If I have to use this paper gasket that came with the rear main seal (not sure if its for the front, which I don't plan to touch, or the seal retainer in the back), What gasket maker should I use? RTV black? Grey? FSM says something that is anareobic curing...not sure which would work.
Are there any tips on that #3 bearing, as far as alignment so I don't score the shaft or the block while turning the crank to get it aligned?
thanks,
Lee

[turbovanman²]

Well, you take off the timing belt to remove the pressure on the crankshaft, this makes it easier to get the upper bearing shells out as the crank isn't being pulled upwards now. You can try using my pry method and if that doestn' work, remove the timing belt.

If your removing the rear main seal retainer then remove ALL main bearing caps, this will make it easier to get out the upper shells.

There is a special tool but you don't need it. With the rear retainer out, a block of wood is your special tool. Clean it with brake cleaner and put some red ANEROBIC sealer on the outside of the seal, now you can put it in place, use the wood and a hammer and hammer it flush. Put a thin coat of oil on the lip. Clean the block and retainer mounting surfaces and again, use Anerobic sealer on one surface, carefully wiggle the seal over the crank, use a small skinny screwdriver to carefully massage the seal lip over the crank edge, if you don't do this, you'll fold over the seal lip and it will leak badly.

If your replacing the front crank seal, then the timing belt has to come off, if your not, then see above.

Installing the front seal is the same, remove crank gear, pry out the seal, clean bore with brake cleaner, sealer on the outer seal, then use a small pick/screwdriver to lift the seal lip over the crank, this one is tougher.

[Lee'sdaytona]

Thank you for the seal advice. Makes life easier when you know what your doing
I had luck replacing all the bearings accept #3. How should I get this guy out? I tried to use a crow bar to pry the crank down, but I was too concerned I would slip (with the oiled castings) and run my hand into something in that block quite painful. I was able to move that upper shell in #3 about 1/8", lock end out first. I haven't tried turning the crank. As of now, #1 has been plastigauged, and its .001 I reinstalled and torqued the #1 cap. The others, accept for three have plastigauge in them waiting for me to remove the cap and test the clearance. Again, thank you for all the advice and help. As for the original bearing condition, They have some scratches in them, but not bad enough to show copper. BUT, they all have these pitted marks, consistant with fine pieces of piston, which would've been from the piston meltdown before I bought the van last year. Maybe that is good cause for low oil pressure? Should I replace the bearings in the CB shafts too while its all apart, as maybe this is part of the problem?
thanks,
Lee

[turbovanman²]

Again, make sure you have all the main caps off when removing the upper shells,

#3 takes a little more effort to move due to the sides but a long screw driver and a hammer will do the job, just tap it as far up as you can, then a prybar will do the rest.

I don't believe you can get BS bearings, I think there part of the casting, like the cam bearings.

Scoring can lower pressure, the pitting is usually normal, from age, coolant, lack of oil changes etc.

Maybe throw a new oil pump in there if you haven't done so before.

[Lee'sdaytona]

Maybe throw a new oil pump in there if you haven't done so before.

OO yeah, you mentioned that before and I forgot to respond. Last year, during the rebuild...well...new piston, rod bearings, HG, Rings...I took the fairly new, low miles oil pump from my Daytona and installed it in the van, and also purchased a new 2.5 pick up. So I think I'm ok in that department. Anyone else have problems with their autometer oil pressure gauge? Not sure to trust mine. Between that gauge showing low pressure at high RPM, and good pressure at idle, while at the same time, the stock pressure sensor throws the check gauges light on at idle....I know the stock gauge is no good, but is that light worth anything?
-Lee

[turbovanman²]

OO yeah, you mentioned that before and I forgot to respond. Last year, during the rebuild...well...new piston, rod bearings, HG, Rings...I took the fairly new, low miles oil pump from my Daytona and installed it in the van, and also purchased a new 2.5 pick up. So I think I'm ok in that department. Anyone else have problems with their autometer oil pressure gauge? Not sure to trust mine. Between that gauge showing low pressure at high RPM, and good pressure at idle, while at the same time, the stock pressure sensor throws the check gauges light on at idle....I know the stock gauge is no good, but is that light worth anything?
-Lee

Well the light comes on at 4 or 6 psi, can't remember. I would say the Autometer is ok and your stock sending unit is junk, causing the light to come on.

[Lee'sdaytona]

Ok Simon, I went back at it today. I took off all the main caps and pried the hell out of that crank and only felt the entire block moving down in the mounts. I got a thinner screwdriver, but only managed to tap the screwdriver between the bearing and the crank. I tried to turn the crank with a 15mm socket on the end there, in the direction the bearing needs to come out. The crankshaft is very hard to turn, I guess because there are no bearing caps on. That moved the bearing down about 3/16". I'm guessing since the idler pully is still installed with belts and all, it won't let me pry the crank down. Should I install all the caps accept for 3, and then crank the shaft so the bearing falls out?
thanks,
Lee

[turbovanman²]

You don't NEED to turn the crank. Tap up the main bearing shell as far as you can using a long skinny screwdriver. Use a pry bar or some type of pointy awl to now grab the bearing thats sticking out and gently move it down and out. When you pry the crank down, your talking mm, you will barely notice it move and you only do this when trying to get the front bearing shells out, IE 1 and 2.

[Lee'sdaytona]

I've tried using my awl. I sharpened it up and everything. Worked perfect for all the other bearings accept 3. It just slips right off the bearing
-Lee

[Lee'sdaytona]

I'm almost at my witt's end here. I've ruined the bearing to the point it HAS to come out for a new one, and I can't just run the one thats in there now. My flat blade screwdriver has driven the bearing as far up as possible. I've used a sharp awl and sharp cold chisel from the lock side to try to pry it out, with no luck at all. This thing won't budge. I'm thinking it may be best to install the other bearing caps, and try to turn the crank, maybe even make that tool out of a cotter pin, shaped into a T for the oil hole to push out the bearing, like it says to do in the write-up. I think by tapping with a screwdriver, I may have mushroomed over parts of the old bearing, making it even harder to remove!

[turbovanman²]

Try wiggling the crank down while you pry on the bearing. I've done lots like this, it will come out, just have alittle patience,

[puppet]

For crying out loud ... you've got the tranny out(?) ... you're gonna replace the front and rear seals ... then just drop the crank out. End of problem. No need to pound the ---- out of the bearings or pry the crank around them.

[Directconnection]

For crying out loud ... you've got the tranny out(?) ... you're gonna replace the front and rear seals ... then just drop the crank out. End of problem. No need to pound the ---- out of the bearings or pry the crank around them.

If this is true, take the crank out. Your 90% there. You've probably nicked the crank as well. The slightest nick will gouge the crank as soon as it turns over.

Take out the crank and do it right.

To take out the bearing, don't pry it out. Take your screwdriver and put the tip of it on the edge of the bearing that has the tab. Lightly press or tap that area and the bearing will spin out of location for you.

[Lee'sdaytona]

OK. What needs to be done to drop the crank? I don't want to disconnect the rod caps, if I can avoid it, and I dont' want to pull the pistons out and "unseat" the rings. So far, I still have the idler pully and belts installed, and the chain is hanging down from the CB shaft setup. I guess I would just have to pull the crank down just enough to get the bearing out? All I've done thus far, is use a screwdriver to push the bearing out, lock side first, and moved the crank just a bit, which actually pushed the bearing down a little. I sure hope I didn't mess anything up besides the bearing
-Lee

[Lee'sdaytona]

PS:
Trans is out, I have a rear main seal kit which I think has a front main paper gasket included. Otherwise, I was only going to replace the rear main seal.
-Lee

[puppet]

I'd bite the bullet and remove the rod caps ... <---- 10 minutes work out and in.
I've never tried this myself but I suppose a guy could rig a hanger using the oil pan bolts to support the crank if he wanted to try and get away from removing the rod caps.

Either way the front seal retainer needs to come off. You can't tip the crank down at the rear in the block and don't even think about doing it with the rods still attached.

Why didn't you try to spin the bearings out with that key (homemade pin) in the crank oil holes? EdIT ... NM, I see, you were worried about scoring the block. That shouldn't be an issue with a pry bar, screwdriver and hammer. Good call.