Starts then dies

[midohiomoparsource]

I have just bought a 1989 Daytona ES with a 2.5 NA and auto for a work car and here is what it is doing;

Will start but die right away, won't idle at all. We changed the HEP and nothing changed. We unhooked the fuel line at the injector and we have fuel coming while it is turning over. We can pour fuel into the throttle body and it will run until you take it away. Something is making the fuel pump stop working. I suspect the ECM but would like some input.

When the key is turned on, you can hear the pump run so I know it at least builds pressure. It will start but will die immediately unless pouring fuel into it.

Please give me ideas as my 4x4 V8 Dakota is killing me in gas, especially if it goes up over $3.00/gal again.

Matt

[Tony Hanna]

I have just bought a 1989 Daytona ES with a 2.5 NA and auto for a work car and here is what it is doing;

Will start but die right away, won't idle at all. We changed the HEP and nothing changed. We unhooked the fuel line at the injector and we have fuel coming while it is turning over. We can pour fuel into the throttle body and it will run until you take it away. Something is making the fuel pump stop working. I suspect the ECM but would like some input.

When the key is turned on, you can hear the pump run so I know it at least builds pressure. It will start but will die immediately unless pouring fuel into it.

Please give me ideas as my 4x4 V8 Dakota is killing me in gas, especially if it goes up over $3.00/gal again.

Matt

I think the first thing I'd do is locate the fuel pump relay, remove it, and jumper the wires. Should be the two that are heavier gauge than the others. This should have your fuel pump running all the time (even with the key off) and allow you to track the source of the problem. I used this method recently along with the "wiggle test" to track an intermittant fuel pump issue to the plug at the tank. Maybe it'll work for you.

[midohiomoparsource]

I changed what I think is the fuel pump relay, it is the one with grey plug and it would run but had bad miss and idle up/down but would stay running. I then changed the ECM and it ran super. Drove it around town for a bit and it would run great. Every once in awhile it would just die, and sometimes the idle would surge, but I was thinking it had old gas and I was going to take it tonight and put fresh gas in it with some cleaner and drive it around for awhile. BUT, tonight it is back to doing the same thing. Start/die. Can't keep it running.

Please any more info. would be great as gas mileage of 14 mpg with my truck and driving 120 miles to work/back isn't cheap and it is breaking us.

Thanks,
Matt

[Tony Hanna]

I changed what I think is the fuel pump relay, it is the one with grey plug and it would run but had bad miss and idle up/down but would stay running. I then changed the ECM and it ran super. Drove it around town for a bit and it would run great. Every once in awhile it would just die, and sometimes the idle would surge, but I was thinking it had old gas and I was going to take it tonight and put fresh gas in it with some cleaner and drive it around for awhile. BUT, tonight it is back to doing the same thing. Start/die. Can't keep it running.

Please any more info. would be great as gas mileage of 14 mpg with my truck and driving 120 miles to work/back isn't cheap and it is breaking us.

Thanks,
Matt

Hmm. Have you checked all the grounds? Maybe you've got a loose one that's making contact good enough to start it and then losing connection from the vibration once the engine is running. I know the ground at the fuel rail can do that on a turbo car, maybe there's one on a TBI that will do the same thing.
Also, any codes? I'm curious to see if the ECM has anything to say about what's going on.

[raccoon]

check the map sensor and wiring.

[midohiomoparsource]

The only code is 23. Which says it is the TBI temp sensor voltage to high or low.

I will check it over again tomorrow, going to have dinner and watch movies with family tonight since we don't get to do that very often.

Matt

[nomadman2001]

Check the ASD relay. I had the same trouble and it was the ASD relay - swapped it out and never had a problem since.

[shelby zed]

have you changed the fuel filter recently?

[Tony Hanna]

The only code is 23. Which says it is the TBI temp sensor voltage to high or low.

I will check it over again tomorrow, going to have dinner and watch movies with family tonight since we don't get to do that very often.

Matt

I'm pretty sure the turbo cars can calculate air temp based on coolant temp if the air temp sensor fails. I'd have to assume the tbi cars are the same way so I seriously doubt that's playing any major role.
I'm still leaning toward an intermittant connection somewhere. Go ahead and try jumpering your fuel pump relay like I mentioned earlier. If that gets it running, then at least it'll narrow down where you need to look.

[Marshallone]

You have corrosion in the injector harness. There are a couple of connectors in that harness take them apart and clean them.

[looneytuner]

I just solved a no start by cleaning the ais. Just pull it and bathe/spray in tb cleaner. Mine was seized and wouldn't start cold. You should be able to push the plunger in with a small phillips. It has a strong spring to close it when you push it in.
My trouble started when I pulled the temp sensor to set the timing. It moved it's last time till a little while ago.
Now that I know what it was, I think you could check by someone using their finger over that opening in the tb like a choke. If it runs a little longer, you know what it is.

[midohiomoparsource]

Ok, I have been out in the cold messing with this thing. I found the fuel pump relay and it has the following wires going into it: RED, Dark green w/black stripe, dark blue w/white stripe and dark blue w/yellow stripe.
Now, the red is constant hot, even with key off. The green is hot with key on only and the two blue ones are not hot at all no matter what.
I can (with relay attached) start the car but it dies immediately still. I can unhook the relay and jump the red wire to the green one, and the test light is lit up once I make the connection, but no pump running.

Aside from the above, I have changed all the relays and ECM with used ones and the car did run. Ran enough that I drove it around town the other day and thought all was good. Yesterday I tried it again, and right back to the start/die problem again. Today I did all the wire checks above and also changed the coil and still nothing.

Something is telling the fuel pump to turn off or not making it stay running. So, I have narrowed it down to either a wiring issue, or the fuel pump itself.

If I can't figure it out, I will strip and junk the car as it is too cold to be messing with it and I don't have patience when it comes to this stuff. It would be a shame as the car is in pretty nice condition with only small amount of rust and the motor runs awesome when I had it running the other day,but I need a car I can get into and go with NOW.

Any other suggestions??

Matt

[Tony Hanna]

Ok, I have been out in the cold messing with this thing. I found the fuel pump relay and it has the following wires going into it: RED, Dark green w/black stripe, dark blue w/white stripe and dark blue w/yellow stripe.
Now, the red is constant hot, even with key off. The green is hot with key on only and the two blue ones are not hot at all no matter what.
I can (with relay attached) start the car but it dies immediately still. I can unhook the relay and jump the red wire to the green one, and the test light is lit up once I make the connection, but no pump running.

Aside from the above, I have changed all the relays and ECM with used ones and the car did run. Ran enough that I drove it around town the other day and thought all was good. Yesterday I tried it again, and right back to the start/die problem again. Today I did all the wire checks above and also changed the coil and still nothing.

Something is telling the fuel pump to turn off or not making it stay running. So, I have narrowed it down to either a wiring issue, or the fuel pump itself.

If I can't figure it out, I will strip and junk the car as it is too cold to be messing with it and I don't have patience when it comes to this stuff. It would be a shame as the car is in pretty nice condition with only small amount of rust and the motor runs awesome when I had it running the other day,but I need a car I can get into and go with NOW.

Any other suggestions??

Matt

Ok, I just went out and brushed the snow off the Sundance to confirm. The green/black stripe and red are the two you want to jumper. With these two jumpered, the fuel pump in my car would run even with the key off.
If your fuel pump won't run like that, then the problem lies somewhere between the fuel pump relay and the pump. If the pump does run with the wires jumpered, then the problem is somewhere between the relay and the computer.

[midohiomoparsource]

Tried to jump the wires again, and nothing. The pump wont even turn on.
Plugged the relay back in, and it will start/die but when it dies, I can hear the pump running still or at least like it would if you turn the key back on.

It has me stumped and the wires are going to be a pita to trace as we all know how that works lol.

Thinking I might just junk it.

Matt

[Tony Hanna]

Just to clarify, the relay I've been calling the fuel pump relay is actually the ASD relay. The only difference I can see between the ASD relay and a normal fuel pump relay is that it is also responsible for power to the coil.

Here's a pretty good wiring diagram that shows how it all ties in.
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBr...3d8008ddba.jsp
The '89 engine control schematic is a little past 1/2 way down the page.

[midohiomoparsource]

I have a factory service manual, but the thing is, it didn't show where the red wire came from, but guess that doesn't matter. The realy I changed came from an 89 Spirit in the junk yard I deal with alot, so condition is unknown for certain, but I can't see two being bad. I am going to go out and steal it from the TII GTC I have that I know runs and see what happens.

That page you sent is good to have, I saved it in my favorites.

Matt

[Tony Hanna]

Tried to jump the wires again, and nothing. The pump wont even turn on.
Plugged the relay back in, and it will start/die but when it dies, I can hear the pump running still or at least like it would if you turn the key back on.

It has me stumped and the wires are going to be a pita to trace as we all know how that works lol.

Thinking I might just junk it.

Matt

That really sounds like an intermittant connection somewhere between the relay and pump or possibly the pump itself on it's way out. With those two wires jumpered, the pump should be running constantly. Try throwing your jumper wire back on and then wiggle the wires/plug at the fuel pump. Also, you might unplug the pump and throw a volt meter or test light on the pump plug (with the jumper wire in place) to see if you have power and ground. If you do have power and ground, try plugging in a spare pump and see if it spins up.

[midohiomoparsource]

I traced the green/black wire back to the firewall and put a test light on it, turned the key on and it lit up while pump primed. I started the car, the light stayed on and when car died, it died as well until the pump reprimed and then it lit back up again. I also changed the ASD relay for the 3rd time from the GTC and nothing changed.

Where does this green/black wire go? Does it go all the way to the pump?

Matt

[Tony Hanna]

I have a factory service manual, but the thing is, it didn't show where the red wire came from, but guess that doesn't matter. The realy I changed came from an 89 Spirit in the junk yard I deal with alot, so condition is unknown for certain, but I can't see two being bad. I am going to go out and steal it from the TII GTC I have that I know runs and see what happens.

That page you sent is good to have, I saved it in my favorites.

Matt

Looks like to me that the red wire comes off of the heavy gauge black wire that runs to the batt. terminal. It looks like it passes through a couple fuse links along the way too. That might be something to check as well. You might have a fuse link that's bad but still making an intermittant connection.

I really enjoy troubleshooting stuff like this. If I had the money to spare for gas, I'd take a road trip up there and give you a hand with it.

[Tony Hanna]

I traced the green/black wire back to the firewall and put a test light on it, turned the key on and it lit up while pump primed. I started the car, the light stayed on and when car died, it died as well until the pump reprimed and then it lit back up again. I also changed the ASD relay for the 3rd time from the GTC and nothing changed.

Where does this green/black wire go? Does it go all the way to the pump?

Matt

It looks like it splits coming out of the relay, and goes to the fuel pump, ignition coil, and the heater for the o2 sensor.