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Thread: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

  1. #1
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    What about rear wheel toe in on Omnis?

    I was invited by a friend to join a group of faster cars that run up Angeles Crest Highway early on Sunday mornings. The group consisted of a Turbo Z, Turbo X19, 350 Camaro, Me, Accord, and 3 Turbo Sonnetts.

    My GLHT has: stock front sway bar, Spiva rear sway bar, boxed rear axle, and poly everywhere except dogbone (got rid of vibes by tossing it). Front wheels are set up with slight toe in and all the negative camber I can get out of the camber bolts - 2 degrees I guess. Rear wheel alignment is stock - no toe in, no camber - the spindles are just bolted up flush to the spindle/axle plate. Stock 15x6 wheels with 205-50-15 Dunlop Direzzas (300 treadwear rating).

    The car does not understeer. It oversteers. An autocross instructor in a "stock" Accord followed me all the way to the top where we stopped for breakfast. When we got out of the cars, he complimented me on the fact that he enjoyed watching my Omni's "perfect slip angles."

    Well, that's fine once the car is "set" and the front wheels are pulling you through but it's a bit spooky on the entries when you're backing the car into corners at 60 - 90 MPH - on a mountain road.

    I'd like to get a bit more understeer. I was told by one of the others to "toe in" the rears and also to put in a little neg camber too.

    Sounds right to me. What does the board think?

    Then, what's the best way to do it? Someone said the dealer has shims. If not, then washers? Shim stock? How thick for starters?
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  2. #2
    Heroes never die, they just reload! Turbo Mopar Staff Frank's Avatar
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    I would try this and test it... Remove the Spiva rear sway bar since you boxed it in already. Then go toe out in the front. This should give you the response you need, but reduce the spooky part of entering the curve.

    I have washers temp installed on the rear of my shadow and they are spooky looking and I only added them for camber reasons. However I think that with modified spring rates and height that camber wont be needed.


    Frank
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  3. #3
    turbo addict
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    Put in a bigger front sway bar. 2 1/4 from Daytona Shelby works but you have to cut both end of the bar by about 1/2 inch.

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    Heroes never die, they just reload! Turbo Mopar Staff Frank's Avatar
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    That could do it, however I think it maybe a bandaid much like using shims in the back. I think the rear is way to stiff. I would try my suggestion first as it is the easiest. If the car tends to scrub speed off too quickly then revert back to current state and try tryingbe's suggestion. Going real stiff without proper trial and error buildup can be very scary on the road.
    Frank Katzenberger
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    91 Daytona Shelby - It is getting there

    87 Shelby CSX #418 - Near stock is a good thing!

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    "... to get the best out of it, you have to go beyond the line. Where bravery becomes insanity. Shall I turn into this hairpin bend at a 100mph? Why not!"



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  5. #5
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    Frank is right, the rear is too stiff. When I want more understeer I just make the Konis as hard as possible and in the front and (which is easier than to loosen the rears) and then start softening as needed until satisfied with the amount of understeer needed.
    Understeer=tight front and loose rear
    Oversteet=tight rear loose front
    Toe and camber will fine tune the coarse settings mentioned above.

    Reinaldo Moloon
    Last edited by Rattlesnake; 03-06-2007 at 02:16 PM.

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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    Speaking of scary, you should see some pictures/video of cars flipping over or biker gets hit on Angeles Crest Highway. Some people drive on it like a race track. It's a two lane road with cliff on both side with lots of blind turns.

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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    Wouldn't a stiffer front bar make it oversteer more?
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    turbo addict Murphy's Avatar
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    I'm not really fimilar with boxing in the rear axle, but I remember someone on TD(Mr Pbody?) U-bolted a piece of angle iron to the rear axle, and it made the car over steer more. The more he tightened up the U bolts, the more the car oversteered. relating this to your setup, boxing in the rear axle may had made the rear axle too rigid.

    I think most of us agree that you need to loosen up the rear some. I think it would be better to go looser on the rear axle,m then to remove your swaybar. Removing the swaybar would be a good fix to see the changes, but for a more permenant setup, i would try a looser axle.

    I am by far not an expert at suspension setups. i'm just throwing my thoughts out onto the paying field
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  9. #9
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Wouldn't a stiffer front bar make it oversteer more?
    Nope, stiffer front makes your understeer more.

    Stiffer rear makes you oversteer.

  10. #10
    Heroes never die, they just reload! Turbo Mopar Staff Frank's Avatar
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I'm not really fimilar with boxing in the rear axle, but I remember someone on TD(Mr Pbody?) U-bolted a piece of angle iron to the rear axle, and it made the car over steer more. The more he tightened up the U bolts, the more the car oversteered. relating this to your setup, boxing in the rear axle may had made the rear axle too rigid.

    I think most of us agree that you need to loosen up the rear some. I think it would be better to go looser on the rear axle,m then to remove your swaybar. Removing the swaybar would be a good fix to see the changes, but for a more permenant setup, i would try a looser axle.

    I am by far not an expert at suspension setups. i'm just throwing my thoughts out onto the paying field

    When I stated to remove the swaybar, I am talking about the aftermarket swaybar he installed. There is still one present in the U channel axle that is now boxed in.
    Frank Katzenberger
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    91 Daytona Shelby - It is getting there

    87 Shelby CSX #418 - Near stock is a good thing!

    94 Bronco 302 XLT - Shorty Headers, 3" exhaust, cold air intake, & Soft top



    "... to get the best out of it, you have to go beyond the line. Where bravery becomes insanity. Shall I turn into this hairpin bend at a 100mph? Why not!"



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  11. #11
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    Thanks guys. Good stuff.

    I had a separate reason to talk to Johnny Spiva last night and, when I asked him about this problem, his thinking was similar to yours. He suggested I go to the JY and cut down a bigger bar out of a K car since the stock L body bar has a smaller OD and a shorter length. His idea was to stiffen the front to match the rear. His thought, if I got it right, was to not reduce the handling capacity by removing the bar or by removing the boxing of the beam axle but to increase the handling capacity by stiffening the front end. He did ask me where my front Konis were set and I had to say "I dunno"

    So, it comes down to what's easier, cheaper, and lighter.

    Think I'll get a JY front sway bar and if that doesn't do it then I'll take the rear bar off (weight) or cut the stitch welds and remove the steel from the bottom of the beam axle. I just hate it when "stock is best."
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  12. #12
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    If you get the bigger bar, you'll have to buy bigger bushings AND grind down some part of the a-arm or else the arm is going to hit the bar.

    Also, make sure you have plenty of blade around when you cut that bar. It's a THICK solid metal. Took like half an hour just to cut one.

  13. #13
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    My theory is that for the most overall cornering force, stiffen whichever end is still gripping (front in this case) until you reach the limits, then back down a bit. Why loosen the rear when the front has more traction to give.

    however this is just a theory and my handling experiments ( all on Ks)dont represent your setup at all.

  14. #14
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    Re: Rear Wheel Toe In and Camber?

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    If you get the bigger bar, you'll have to buy bigger bushings AND grind down some part of the a-arm or else the arm is going to hit the bar.

    Also, make sure you have plenty of blade around when you cut that bar. It's a THICK solid metal. Took like half an hour just to cut one.
    Yes. John Spiva said to freeze my existing polybushings and to then drill them out with a hole saw. I've got enough metal cutting cut off blades.

    Which part of the A-arm do you think will hit the bar?
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

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