My Lonewolf performance experience LWP

[1FastCSX289]

I know this long, but I want to account for as many details as I can and be fair to myself and Wallace. I am trying my best to write this from an unbiased point of view. My intention is not to create waves, but to give an honest accounting of the events that have transpired over the past few months.

I began searching for someone to port the cylinder head for my CSX back in November. I talked to a few guys and then decided to go with Wallace at LWP because he had some seriously impressive numbers. I wasnt looking to spend a huge amount but I had a decent chunk to plop down. Due to my budget constraints I decided to go with a large port, stock valve 782 head. Wallace told me via PM that he had just done one and got 191 (at .400" intake) and low 160's (at .400 ex.). He quoted a price of 800 plus a core and shipping. So, I sent him my core.

He was finished with the job in early January and told me that he was able to get 192/176 (@ .500" lift). He also ran into some trouble with the valve job disrupting the flow numbers, but in order to get the flow back he had all new valves and seats installed at no charge. I was really happy! I promptly paid the bill on January 9th.

The head came with a flow sheet. LWP's numbers on the flow sheet given to me with the head are as follows:

Intake
.100 - 64.3
.200 - 121.7
.300 - 167.2
.400 - 186.6
.500 - 192.2

Ex
.100 - 55.3
.200 - 98.7
.300 - 129.5
.400 - 156.7
.500 - 176.2


When I received the head I took it out and looked it over quickly noticing the nice polish on combustion chambers and epoxy on two intake ports. I put it back in the box and it sat until my cometic head gasket arrived from Cindy a week or two later. I took it out and was getting ready to install it when I began to take a little closer look. I ran my fingers down the short side radius of an exhaust port and noticed a large gouge. I popped a valve and noticed that their were pretty big gouges from the cutting tool along the back side of the bowl. I thought it was strange that it wasnt ground smooth and polished. But, I dont claim to be an expert in anything of this nature so I sent the head over to my machinist to have a look. I told him I would like it flowed. So, I left the head with him to have it flowed. A few days later my machinist's father passed away and he wasnt able to get to the head for another two weeks or so.

This brings us up to last week. I received a phone call from my machinist and he said there was a large descrepancy between the LWP numbers and the numbers from his bench. I told him that I wanted him to flow it in front of me. So, I went over to the shop and he did. While I was at his shop, he further commented that he was appalled at the work that was done on the head, especially the exhaust ports. The numbers he got from his Superflow 600 (converted to28") were as follows:

Intake
.100 - 50.6
.200 - 101.1
.300 - 137.3
.400 - 159.6
.500 - 168.9

Ex.
.100 - 47.5
.200 - 79.3
.300 - 97.4
.400 - 110.0
.500 - 122.0


Of course, I called Wallace. We discussed the issue for a while on the phone. We also exchanged numerous PM's. He explained to me that the gouges were low pressure dibits and the ones in the bowl were special channels. He also explained to me that my machinist's bench was most likely in error.

I told him that I wouldn't feel comfortable sending the head unless he was able to give me refund. Wallace agreed to grant a refund of the amount that I paid him (800 dollars) if I sent him the head.

I would also like to ask Wallace to consider reimbursing me for the core, shipping, and flow bench time should the head be evaluated as inconsistant with the flow sheet he provided. This totals 250 dollars.

[2.216VTurbo]

Interesting. Flow numbers from bench to becnch can vary considerably, in fact, the intake numbers at roughly 10%-12% could be in the ballpark. However the exhaust numbers couldn't possibly account for the variation between benches. Somebody is getting creative with their numbers. Having said that, I think it's resonable that he refunded you your machining and labor costs, whether or not a vendor is responsible for another vendor's costs to 'double check' some specs, that's a tough call...

Did you ask for or did LWP state that the intake runners would have material added via welding (or the less labor intensive/expensive) epoxy filling? If not, is this a 'oops' fix, is it in each runner or just a couple?

Sounds like you are back where you started with the head, wish I still had time to do portwork for club members... With Wifey/kids/job etc these days, I can barely keep up with my own projects. The new Masi head for the Rampage will take me about 40+ hours of porting to get it where I want it That's roughly half of how long it took my first one

Excuse the typos, been drinking all night with a couple clients at a resort in Tucson...

[1FastCSX289]

Stock 782 numbers on my machinist's bench are as follows:

Intake
.100 - 45.5
.200 - 86.5
.300 - 116.5
.400 - 135.25
.500 - 143.4

Exhaust
.100 - 39.6
.200 - 72.61
.300 - 90.63
.400 - 99.8
.500 - 108.2

These numbers seem to indicate a 17% increase in intake flow and 12% increase in exhaust flow. I also had my machinist machine a bore size of 3.44 for his machine because the closest he had was 3.375. For the record the difference was neglegeable.

The g-head that I sold in order to purchase this head was flowed on the same bench with the 3.375 sleeve. It flowed 181/131 @.500" So, actually, it appears to me that im further behind.

[1FastCSX289]

Head has been shipped back USPS. Tracking number: 0306 2400 0000 6835 0612

[Directconnection]

Interesting. Flow numbers from bench to becnch can vary considerably, in fact, the intake numbers at roughly 10%-12% could be in the ballpark.

I'll copy a post of mine here from TD:

I think people are not fully understanding what's happening with this LW head:


***There was a true A/B test performed on the same SF-600 bench***

Test A was a stock swirl head @ 144/108
Test B was the LW head @ 168/122

168/122 is a far cry from 192/176 as advertised.


144/108 is right on par with what I have seen with stock swirl heads on my bench, and the two others I used in the past (which are documented)

[glhs727]

well, just like dynos, flowbenches seem to vary because here is numbers of what a stock swirl head flow according to:
Gary Donovan's site: Swirl SOHC 156 cfm 135 cfm 500"
Todd Nelson's numbers: Stock Swirl 157 127
which are larger than Steve's numbers posted.

Even stocks heads flowed can have varying numbers from head to head, and even flow benches can vary from bench to bench, and flowbench operators can vary, as do their methods, and calibration techniques. Sean's head was not flowed by Sean before it was ported, so the degree % gain is unknown. In addition, the BEFORE port and after porting numbers of HIS head were NOT done by the same guy and the same flow bench.
Personally, I think it was in poor taste that the poster started the thread without giving LWP the opportunity to review the numbers or rectify the situation and even poorer taste for a mod to come on here and stir the pot as Steve pretty much does on almost every vendor related thread, and a lot of threads in general.

Later,
Cindy

[GLHSKEN]

No Steve does not. He lives his worlds building high performance engines for a living. I would with-hold judgement...

You do not know the circumstances.. LWP WAS given all the #'s ahead of the thread being started. They agreed to the starting of this thread.

[1FastCSX289]

well, just like dynos, flowbenches seem to vary because here is numbers of what a stock swirl head flow according to:
Gary Donovan's site: Swirl SOHC 156 cfm 135 cfm 500"
Todd Nelson's numbers: Stock Swirl 157 127
which are larger than Steve's numbers posted.

Even stocks heads flowed can have varying numbers from head to head, and even flow benches can vary from bench to bench, and flowbench operators can vary, as do their methods, and calibration techniques. Sean's head was not flowed by Sean before it was ported, so the degree % gain is unknown. In addition, the BEFORE port and after porting numbers of HIS head were NOT done by the same guy and the same flow bench.
Personally, I think it was in poor taste that the poster started the thread without giving LWP the opportunity to review the numbers or rectify the situation and even poorer taste for a mod to come on here and stir the pot as Steve pretty much does on almost every vendor related thread, and a lot of threads in general.

Later,
Cindy

Cindy, thanks for your opinion. Even though flow benches can vary, I think we can all agree that something went wrong here as we're not talking about a 10cfm variance. Were talking about 50 cfm plus. Regardless, I appreciate the different points of view along the spectrum. Thanks for sharing.

I would agree that that this thread be in poor taste had I accused Wallace of doing anything maliciously. My goal is not to trash Wallace but to make a public accounting for these events. That way, we're all on the same page. No accusations. Only facts here. Im sure Wallace has a perfectly reasonable explanation for all this and it shows by his willingness to refund some of my money up front.

He should have the head tuesday. And perhaps the independent flow test that you suggested to me on the phone might be the best thing in this case?

Thanks for that suggestion.

[glhs727]

Cindy, thanks for your opinion.....

I would agree that that this thread be in poor taste had I accused Wallace of doing anything maliciously. My goal is not to trash Wallace but to make a public accounting for these events. That way, we're all on the same page. No accusations. Only facts here. Im sure Wallace has a perfectly reasonable explanation for all this and it shows by his willingness to refund some of my money up front.

Well, you come out and say Wallace said this....and I had someone do a test and it said that...... sure sounds like an accusation to me, but hey, maybe I just read it wrong.

No Steve does not. He lives his worlds building high performance engines for a living. I would with-hold judgement...

You do not know the circumstances.. LWP WAS given all the #'s ahead of the thread being started. They agreed to the starting of this thread.

I do know the circumstances!! and I am withholding judgement which is more than I can say for some folks.
later,
Cindy

[Frank]

I think that people need to be calm and stick to the facts and let this play out with the partys that are involved with this.

[1FastCSX289]

Well, you come out and say Wallace said this....and I had someone do a test and it said that...... sure sounds like an accusation to me, but hey, maybe I just read it wrong.

Cindy, it sounds like youre drawing certain conclusions from the facts that were presented. I am still under the assumption that there may be a reasonable excuse for the descrepancies. Has it crossed my mind that Wallace intentionally cheated me? Sure. I have to be honest. But, there are other explanations too. Maybe Wallace had a leak in the bench that he was unaware of? People make mistakes. Perhaps a post like this will help him to be able to take care of an issue like that before it happens to someone else. No disrespect intended.......Youve got to take it easy on the guy and NOT jump to conclusions....you know what im saying?

Again, the FACT that Wallace is willing to take care of the situation tells me he is willing to do the right thing.

[turbovanman²]

Wow, calmy and nicely put. I need to take lessons, lol!

[Directconnection]

Cindy, you cannot deny an A/B comparison. All I am doing is pointing out the facts that Sean presented in his thread without bashing Wallace. Facts do not lie and Sean posted factual information.

People can say flowbenches vary, operator error, different bore, etc... but you cannot ignore an A/B comparison. No, the head was not flowed prior to LW porting, but out of several stock swirls and, they all flow roughly 139-143 cfm for me (G heads didn't vary more than 3 cfm either). Never will one flow 130 and another 157. Never... Seen this even with severe core shifted 782s. They are such a low flowing head that the % translates into a very low cfm variance.

You know what? Even if they re-did the test with the LW head and a stock head both with the spark plugs out, a bore adapter in the headstand of 6 feet, a radiused inlet guide made out of a tuba.... they still will flow the same difference between the two, which was a 14% intake gain, and an 11% gain and not a 26% intake and 39% exhaust as advertised. As 5digits used to say... "factual information"

Now, as it may appear to you... just because me and Wallace have had heated debates does not mean I am trying to bring him down or see him close up shop out of this. He offers some very good products and is an asset to the community along with the few others that do this. Andre is a very good guy with very good skills.

If this were a FM head, a TU, or any other, I would point out the facts just like I have. All I am doing is backing up the "flowbenches vary" type of statements while not attacking LW.

[1FastCSX289]

Just an update from the USPS website:

Label/Receipt Number: 0306 2400 0000 6835 0612
Status: Notice Left

We attempted to deliver your item at 1:17 PM on March 5, 2007 in SALINA, KS 67401 and a notice was left. It can be redelivered or picked up at the Post Office. If the item is unclaimed, it will be returned to the sender. Information, if available, is updated every evening. Please check again later.

Must have missed you Wallace, let me know when you go pick it up. Thanks.

[1FastCSX289]

Update. Wallace received the head yesterday. He is currently denying the refund because he didnt like the way that the box was packaged. He is going to take it over to his engine builder and have the head pressure tested because he thinks it may have internal cracks.

In regard to the packaging, when I received the head, it was shipped in a blue, plastic tote with pillows on the bottom, styrofoam household insulation on the sides to keep it from sliding, and a pillow on the top. It was zip tied shut. I thought it was a nice packing job and didnt even think of pressure testing the head when I got it.

When I sent it back, I used the same packaging materials except for the styrofoam insulation on the sides. I substituted with card-board instead. Same plastic tote, same pillows, zip tied shut, etc. I had the Post Office add the "FRAGILE" stamp to the top so that drivers would know to treat it with care.

Unfortunately, due to Wallace's busy schedule, we wont have any word on the head until Wednesday of next week and I will have to wait without a head and the 800 (which would allow me to have another head ported). Im sure his engine builder will contact me in regards to any cracks in my head so we can file a loss with the United States Postal Service.

[MOPAR2YA]

Ive been quiet until I had the head so I can check it out. I posted a picture as to the condition of the tote on TD.com when I received it, there was ZERO padding on the bottom it was just tossed in there, with some padding on top and a piss poor attempt of padding on the side. When you see it you will understand my abundance of caution. Sean has been misrepresenting and leaving alot of facts out here. I will post the facts as I have them, good bad or indifferent.

[1FastCSX289]

Thanks for your response Wallace. I feel better now that you have acknowledged my post publicly. When I initially asked you to respond to the thread (before I even posted), I wasnt asking you to respond to the facts that I presented. How could I ask for that without giving you the chance to review your work again? SO, if thats what you thought, I can understand your frustration. I WAS asking that you just acknowledge my complaint publicly so that I could feel good about shipping the head back to you.

Wallace, THANK YOU for posting the pic of that tote. I wish you told me there was external damage to the box. This is NEWS to me. I would like to assure you that I DID put packaging material under that head before it went off. And it was marked "INSURED" and "FRAGILE". The post office was aware of the packaging prior to shipment as well. Maybe something happened though? Im sure in the end, it will test fine. As testified to in this thread, those things can take a substantial amount of abuse......it is a big block of metal. And no, it wasnt my friends who packed it.......it was me.

I would like to add that I take some offense to the claim that I just "tossed" the head into the box and that I didnt put any padding under the head. I am also a little offended that you claim that I am misrepresenting facts.

So, before we proceed, lets establish what a fact is. You see, you CAN claim what YOU SEE as a fact. But, when you interpret my actions BASED upon what you see, you can no longer say that it is a fact. Kind of like you did in the example above. You cant say that I "tossed" the head in the box and made a piss poor attempt at putting packaging on the sides and the top. Im mean, you CAN say it, but you can't claim it as FACT because YOU werent there. Only me and the post office lady. Im gonna ask that you try and understand this concept before we proceed. If you look back over my posts, I really tried to stick to this rule. I made no interpretations of the facts because thats called opinion and I would like to leave my opinion out of this. And I will, as long as you can do the same. That way, it remains nice and civil. You know what im saying, Wallace?

Anyways, its too bad you cant drop the head off to the machine shop that I arranged for us. They are only about 4 miles from you and I will pick up the bill if it fails. They can also do the job on Monday so we would know sooner. But, I can understand why you want to use your guy.

Peace.

[1FastCSX289]

A little follow up from my previous post ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Let me give you an example here of what happens when one tries to interpret the facts.

because there was NO padding on the bottom of the head. It was just set in there.

it was just tossed in there, with some padding on top and a piss poor attempt of padding on the side. Sean has been misrepresenting and leaving alot of facts out here. I will post the facts as I have them, good bad or indifferent.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yWK2LTavFGQ

So, you see if you stick to the facts than we can avoid saying things that are untrue and offending one another.

The good news is that we have video record of quality packaging. And, I am sure you made the Post Office on your end record the fact that the package was broken when you picked it up. This way, if there is an issue we can can visit the post office to be reimbursed for the core (which isnt much anyways).

[stampederunner]

Well I would say the head had more than sufficent padding.

[MOPAR2YA]

Although this issue is resolved, heres how it ended up when I received it.

This is the final post on this issue.