I run an 86 GLHT radiator in my Shelby Z. As you may know, the L-body radiators have an extra nipple on the driver's side in lieu of a nipple on the water pump housing. Currently I have a rubber cap over the nipple. Would this be a good source of coolant for the cylinder head mod?
It could work. I would definently monitor your coolant temps after the install. The reason for this is that you would be bypassing the thermostat. You may wind up with a cold spot depending on the way the fluid would move about in the system. I would say build it... if you have adverse effects, tap the water pump.
Frank
Frank Katzenberger
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91 Daytona Shelby - It is getting there
87 Shelby CSX #418 - Near stock is a good thing!
94 Bronco 302 XLT - Shorty Headers, 3" exhaust, cold air intake, & Soft top
"... to get the best out of it, you have to go beyond the line. Where bravery becomes insanity. Shall I turn into this hairpin bend at a 100mph? Why not!"
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Hmmm, good point, didn't think of that. I do have a temperature gauge, just haven't installed it yet. The sensor for it however is in the top of the thermostat box.
What direction does the coolant flow in these cars anyway?
the coolant flows from the block to the head.
SDAC member "It's not the ride, it's the rider."
correct. the main reason for tapping off of the water pump into the side of the head is that the positive pressure will create some circulation. Then when the thermostat opens up, you get full circulation/disipation of coolant out of the head.
With your idea, it would help to keep from having a hot spot in the head, however it would constantly be flowing out of the head into the radiator even with the thermostat closed. Could it work? Sure... how well? Dunno. You may even need to try different restictors in the line to keep it from flowing to quickly and causing the engine to run cooler then anticipated.
Frank
Squirrel Performance - Home of the best turbo calc!!!
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91 Daytona Shelby - It is getting there
87 Shelby CSX #418 - Near stock is a good thing!
94 Bronco 302 XLT - Shorty Headers, 3" exhaust, cold air intake, & Soft top
"... to get the best out of it, you have to go beyond the line. Where bravery becomes insanity. Shall I turn into this hairpin bend at a 100mph? Why not!"
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How about this: Perhaps another option could be to run the heater hoses to the nipple on the radiator like an L-body, and then run from the nipple on the water pump to the head, I'm guessing with a restrictor to cut down the volume.
I'm really just going over ideas at the moment, I probably won't be doing any engine work for at least several more months until I finish the body work.
For the work, I would just do the common mod of running from water pump to the side of the head. Its a sure thing and takes the same about of time IMHO.
Frank
Squirrel Performance - Home of the best turbo calc!!!
http://www.squirrelpf.com
91 Daytona Shelby - It is getting there
87 Shelby CSX #418 - Near stock is a good thing!
94 Bronco 302 XLT - Shorty Headers, 3" exhaust, cold air intake, & Soft top
"... to get the best out of it, you have to go beyond the line. Where bravery becomes insanity. Shall I turn into this hairpin bend at a 100mph? Why not!"
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When I did the mod I screwed up and drilled into the inlet side of the pump housing. Still seems to work fine. The flow to #4 is reversed but it's still moving.
Originally Posted by John B
When I did the mod I screwed up and drilled into the inlet side of the pump housing. Still seems to work fine. The flow to #4 is reversed but it's still moving.
It will be interesting to see what comes of your method.
Has anyone else done it this way?
It seems to work fine; even though it's returning heated coolant back to the pump bypassing the radiator it's still runs as cool as before. At first I used a restrictor in the 3/8" line to slow the flow but took it out recently and noticed no change in engine temp. It eliminates the stagnation at #4 for sure. I doubt that many others have done this-most TDers are less bewildered than I am...
dumb --- question.... what about running a line from the side of the head to the hex nut on top of the thermostat? or T in with the turbo???
If you mean a T in from the coolant line that runs from the turbo to the T-stat box, then that coolant would have just been heated by the turbo - likely the hottest coolant anywhere in the system. As for a short line from the air evac hex/allen head on the topp of the T-stat - OK to relieve the dead spot behind #4 but will not deliver the much cooler coolant provided by a take off tap at the high side of the water pump.
well you still have stagnation until the thermostat opens.
frank
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91 Daytona Shelby - It is getting there
87 Shelby CSX #418 - Near stock is a good thing!
94 Bronco 302 XLT - Shorty Headers, 3" exhaust, cold air intake, & Soft top
"... to get the best out of it, you have to go beyond the line. Where bravery becomes insanity. Shall I turn into this hairpin bend at a 100mph? Why not!"
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Tried this a couple years ago. Engine would never reach180*, even on a 95* day.
OK but is there any real heat before the T stat opens? If we are talking about a possible drag racing scenario where heat builds to the point of damage to #4 piston before the T stat can open, then leave the T stat out.
I disagree. Correct me if I am missing something but:
The engine is actually setup that way stock... The stock tube that goes out of the waterbox to the heater core is before the thermostat!
It then goes through the heater core switch and then to the suction side of the water pump either on the pump its self, the outlet of the rad, or even a tee into the bottom rad line on some cars. That means that it is always sucking some of the coolant out of the waterbox without going through the thermostat.
I don't see how it is any different to plug the tube from the waterbox and run the line from the side of the head instead. Other than the fact that you are solving the #4 stagnation problem rather than taking the water from the waterbox.
-Rich
Apples and oranges here...
On OUR cars, the heater core is not removing enough heat to worry about because it is indeed going from head back to inlet of the pump. Not that big of heat loss. All of it is staying before the thermostat. To dump fluid into the nice and large radiator could upset the balance of heat in the engine. Too cold and you have bad gas mileage and increase wear internally.
Frank
Squirrel Performance - Home of the best turbo calc!!!
http://www.squirrelpf.com
91 Daytona Shelby - It is getting there
87 Shelby CSX #418 - Near stock is a good thing!
94 Bronco 302 XLT - Shorty Headers, 3" exhaust, cold air intake, & Soft top
"... to get the best out of it, you have to go beyond the line. Where bravery becomes insanity. Shall I turn into this hairpin bend at a 100mph? Why not!"
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I would agree if the nipple was on the inlet side of the rad but it isn't. That nipple is on the outlet side and goes directly to the water pump.
It is the same thing as having it on the suction side of the water pump like it is with the stock heater core setup.
One thing to note is that it is a terrible source for coolant to the head... It is a destination for coolant from the head because the nipple will actually suck water from the head bypassing the radiator.
-Rich
I found something interesting in the junkyard today on the number 4 cooling mod!
VW apparently was more worried about this problem on their 1.8l engine than ChryCo was because they actually did a #4 cooling mod!
Their 1.8/2.0 head actually is layed out much like the 2.2 (the 1.8 and 2.0VW engines share the same block with the 1.7 but Chryco made their own 1.7l head rather than using VWs)
Here is the head showing the similarity in location of the water outlet:
The forward connection goes to the radiator and the side goes back to the water pump pressure side. Note that the thermostat is actually in the water pump's radiator return line.
The interesting thing is that it also has a freeze plug in the side but is tapped for two holes so you can put one of these on it:
The VW part number is: 026-121-145 in case it is hard to read. It is for a 3/4" line rather than 5/8 but that isn't a big deal. The common block water pump has a 3/4" inlet on it anyway so we are used to dealing with this and already know what to order or use when we have 5/8" hose with a 3/4" connection...
The oring means all we have to do is drill and tap two little holes in the side of our head for 10mm headed bolts. Or even some 1/4" bolts if you happen to have that tap handy!
The line then simply goes through the heater core and back to the water pump post thermostat (no thermostat control, no passing through the radiator, no collecting $200).
The bigger thing is that this shows that VW felt that the proper way to do the number four cooling mod was to simply return the water to the suction side of the pump. I have felt this all along and feel that we should plug the old heater core feed line and feed the heater core from a #4 mod. If it makes you feel better you can tee it with the #4 mod and feed the water to the heater core but either way the heater core normally takes water from the engine and returns it to the water pump without going through the thermostat or the radiator.
The one thing I haven't wrapped my head around is that VW actually sends a 3/4" line back from the pressure side of the water pump to the #3/#4 cooling outlet... I have to think about this a bit more but I believe it isn't a major difference... The coolant will not pass through the radiator when the stat is closed because the outlet of the rad will be plugged. that means the water will go through the engine both through 1-2-3 as normal and through the 3-4 outlet and back out the #4. Most of the flow should however go through the entire engine.
When it is open the pressure side line will force water to return directly through the radiator for a second pass along with the normal water from #3/#4 and some percentage of water will go directly from the #4 to the suction side of the water pump to circulate again. Hose sizes play a big part here and I haven't done the math or thought about the radiator as a restriction....
In my setup the water will go through the entire engine when the stat is closed but not the radiator. When the stat opens it will go mostly through the radiator but some percentage will go directly from the added #4 outlet to water pump and circulate again..
I believe the only difference is that more water flows accross the #4 with the pressure side connection to the #3/#4 in/outlet. But either way more flow gets out of the #4 even without it.
If you pick up one of these you will be amazed at how nicely it fits on the 2.2 8V head. It looks like it was made to be there and Chryco just forgot to drill and tap the holes for it....
-Rich
That is very cool. No pun intended. THanks for the tip.
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