The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

I always knew HEP and distributor is not accurate because whenever I use a timing gun to set base timing, the timing mark always jumps between 10 to 14 and never settle on 12.

Now with MS, timing mark is where ever I set it in the software, every time.

After my last dyno, I found I am able to run more ignition timing while boosting on E54 (MS tune) than E85 (LM tune)! Here are the timing tables for both tune.

E85 tune on LM with Turbonator, HEP and distributor. We added timing until no more power gain and power started to drop, then we back off couple of degree.

http://thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dod...0whptiming.jpg


E54 tune on Microsquirt with 36-1 wheel welded on the crank pulley. Same tuners on the same dyno.

http://thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dod.../e54350whp.jpg


What does it all mean?

With MS, I'm making about the roughly 250 WHP at 12.5PSI, it took 15.5PSI on LM to get the same power.

So, if you're looking for low boost and high HP, I'd say go aftermarket ECU and get rid of the HEP and distributor.

If that's the only change you made, then that is a huge difference indeed. Thanks for that into. It's something to consider given that some aftermarket systems really aren't that expensive for what you get. I'll be sticking with the stock electronics, but it is something to think about for sure.

He changed turbos also, but both are T04 cold sides, just in different trims.

I think you would find the timing inaccuracy is not the distributor and hep but rather the rubber belt driving the whole works

ms is probably less to do with it than your crank trigger system

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Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar

He changed turbos also, but both are T04 cold sides, just in different trims.

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I had a more efficient T04E-50 trim compressor wheel with a bigger T04E housing and now I have a less efficient T04B-V trim compressor wheel and smaller T04B housing. So if anything, I should lose HP going form 50 trim to V trim, but that's not what happened.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge

I think you would find the timing inaccuracy is not the distributor and hep but rather the rubber belt driving the whole works

ms is probably less to do with it than your crank trigger system

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Probably, but since the 8 valve's LM/SMEC/SBEC is tie together with HEP sensor, 30 year old HEP wiring, timing belt flex, i-shaft, distributor, plastic weld, and etc, timing inaccuracy would remain as long as you keep using 8 valve's LM/SMEC/SBEC.

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Originally Posted by tryingbe

Probably, but since the 8 valve's LM/SMEC/SBEC is tie together with HEP sensor, 30 year old HEP wiring, timing belt flex, i-shaft, distributor, plastic weld, and etc, timing inaccuracy would remain as long as you keep using 8 valve's LM/SMEC/SBEC.

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And all those inaccurate variations/tolerances get compounded at times, belt lash, gear lash, etc.
I'm sure that is a big reason the stock timing check has the reading bouncing all around.
It would be nice to remove that variable without having to go full standalone electronics.

lol due to the timing wandering around I've never actually used a timing light on a TM/TD in all these years as it's basically useless
my azz tells me more about the timing than a timing light ever could & always has done

As Rob Llyod has tried to explain over and over, that timing check/adjustment procedure is just setting the timing reference.
So it is important to try and get it close.
With the ability to change timing maps with flashable ecu's and MPTune, the reference might become less important that what the end result actual timing ends up being. But, the way to do it right is still to have the reference right so the actual numbers are meaningful.

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Originally Posted by wheming

And all those inaccurate variations/tolerances get compounded at times, belt lash, gear lash, etc.
I'm sure that is a big reason the stock timing check has the reading bouncing all around.
It would be nice to remove that variable without having to go full standalone electronics.

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On the geek thread, I suggested we use sensors such as crank and cam and translate i.e. convert to HEP language. This may enable us to use the stock electronic but with superior crank and cam position. This could help keep the cost down for us big spenders

yep but ten min on a quoit road with a distributor wrench will, get base timing set way way better than a timing light ever could
in a really light car like a L body you would be surprised how little distributor movement can actually be felt

timing light tells you what the timing is
service manual tells you what the engineers set it to usually
the car tells you what it wants

always listen to the car - it's the only one that ACTUALLY knows

on using crank & cam sensors , going distributorless , r/t motors and I shaft -oil pump failures ..
I think one of the big reasons the R/T's have the oil pump drive failures is the distributor delation

I've personally seen what bad gear engagement with an oil pump drive can do / cause , be caused by in other motors and it really fubar's the engine
to long an oil pump or dist shaft and kiss the pump good bye with the motor
so with the dist drive lug , shaft , housing and most importantly the distributor clamp holding the housing down on the block .. WHAT's keeping the oil pump drive gear from climbing and dropping off the gear driving it ???
NOTHING .. now
like runing a hand file over each gear tooth and wondering why they keep wearing away ...

Why couldn't you leave the distributor in if using a cam sensor on the head and crank sensor off the crank pulley?

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Originally Posted by thedon809

Why couldn't you leave the distributor in if using a cam sensor on the head and crank sensor off the crank pulley?

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Yes you could this would only replace the HEP function.

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Originally Posted by chromguy

Yes you could this would only replace the HEP function.

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Exactly. If someone's that worried I would just remove the cap and rotor and Fab a little flat plate to cover it. Could probably mount the coil pack to it as well.

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Originally Posted by thedon809

Exactly. If someone's that worried I would just remove the cap and rotor and Fab a little flat plate to cover it. Could probably mount the coil pack to it as well.

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Already done.

http://thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dod...quirt/coil.jpg

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Originally Posted by tryingbe

Already done.

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Perfect timing for the picture!

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Originally Posted by chromguy

Perfect timing for the picture!

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Now YOU made the pun! ;)

to use the crank sensor and cam sensor then use the distributor to actually deliver the spark energy from the coil to the plugs .. total waste of time

sure the sensors would give you great accuracy in signal timing to the ecu .. but to still use the bounc-ie jounc-ie belt/i-shaft/pump/dist drive , you still haven't improved actual spark timing accuracy to the cylinders
(IF by keeping the dist the intent was to still use the cap/rotor and wires)

Umm.. rethink that a moment.. the rotor and cap is a rotary switch essentially. It does not affect timing more than a few picoseconds as long as the rotor is pointed at the terminal within several degrees. However, the reason for getting rid of the cap and rotor would be higher spark energy and I don't think that waste spark setup will deliver as much as individual coil on plug setup.. if you're going to go all out, why not go all the way out? Plus that eliminates all plug wires except the coil boot. Just my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by A_ Kelley

Umm.. rethink that a moment.. the rotor and cap is a rotary switch essentially. It does not affect timing more than a few picoseconds as long as the rotor is pointed at the terminal within several degrees. However, the reason for getting rid of the cap and rotor would be higher spark energy and I don't think that waste spark setup will deliver as much as individual coil on plug setup.. if you're going to go all out, why not go all the way out? Plus that eliminates all plug wires except the coil boot. Just my thoughts.

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You would have to Fab up a mount for a COP setup.