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Block differences with pictures...
I was moving crap around in the garage tonight (so that I have enough room to get to other crap) and, since they were in the way anyway, decided to pull out an example of each block and take pictures to document what the differences are in the bottom end structure.
Basically, the Tall deck and common block are the same on the bottom end - except that the CB has rod reliefs and the TD does not. This would only (possibly) be a problem if you were to run the thicker turbo rods in the tall deck - but why would you do that? Also, the TD has a mechanical fuel pump drive mount.
You can clearly see the increased thickness of the webbing from the early block to the tall deck, and the TD looks about the same as the CB.
First pic is early block, 2nd and 3rd are TD, 4th and 5th are CB...
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Re: Block differences with pictures...
just wish I could of found a timing belt that would fit a masi setup and a tall deck. mmm long rod 16v.
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Great pictures, but I'm not seeing a huge difference. My eyes are untrained though, so I'm probably not looking for the right things. If I'm to understand this right, you're saying that the first picture is from an ~'83-'87 block, second and third are "tall" meaning 2.5 (right?), and then the '89 and up common block in the last two pictures. What years, models are these blocks from?
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
neonsox
Great pictures, but I'm not seeing a huge difference. My eyes are untrained though, so I'm probably not looking for the right things. If I'm to understand this right, you're saying that the first picture is from an ~'83-'87 block, second and third are "tall" meaning 2.5 (right?), and then the '89 and up common block in the last two pictures. What years, models are these blocks from?
so you have the journal bearings there for the crank, right? focus on the "supports" that the journal bearings sit on. look at the thickness of the TD/CB to that of the early block. there's a lot more material there.
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Yeah, that was the point. There had been some debate about the TD blocks - were they like the early block or like the CB? I think it's clear that the CB was a derivative of the TD. The TD should be just as strong as the CB.
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Re: Block differences with pictures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ShelGame
Yeah, that was the point. There had been some debate about the TD blocks - were they like the early block or like the CB? I think it's clear that the CB was a derivative of the TD. The TD should be just as strong as the CB.
Some would argue stronger. The TD blocks are definitely thicker in the sleeves, and the .470 deck makes for better rod ratio.
Here is another pic of early and CB side by side.
Todd
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
4 l-bodies
Some would argue stronger. The TD blocks are definitely thicker in the sleeves, and the .470 deck makes for better rod ratio.
Here is another pic of early and CB side by side.
Todd
Ahh ok I see it now. Any pics of piston, rod, or crank differences? It looks as though they went back to the drawing board and actually made the design more expensive rather than trimming costs. Ah, the good old days...
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
4 l-bodies
Some would argue stronger. The TD blocks are definitely thicker in the sleeves, and the .470 deck makes for better rod ratio.
Here is another pic of early and CB side by side.
Todd
TD are thicker? Really? Pics? I have 2 TD blocks that I'd like to have bored 0.06" over...
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Looks like a TD would accept 4 bolts main caps as well with some machine work! I may definitely be getting a couple tall decks for a future project myself. There are a couple out in the local yard still complete from VC to oil pan. What kind of power are you running through one right now Rob?
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WickedShelby88
Looks like a TD would accept 4 bolts main caps as well with some machine work! I may definitely be getting a couple tall decks for a future project myself. There are a couple out in the local yard still complete from VC to oil pan. What kind of power are you running through one right now Rob?
Zero. The 2 I have are for a future project. I want to build a 2.5 NA hybrid, or maybe a Lotus, or maybe a 287 8V or maybe even a Masi if I get rich before I finish. I'm not sure yet. I need 250hp NA. So, probably a hybrid as that's the cheapest way to go.
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Sounds promising. From what I've read about early Chrysler development they were going to make an N/A with a 16V head capable of revving easily to 7500rpms in the long rod 2.5 variety. I plan on building a turbo version especially now that I have seen the tall deck block. I would probably end up using custom steel rods myself. Thank you for sharing those pictures as they probably need to in the KC. Definitely is an invaluable resource when we can share information such as this.
Re: Block differences with pictures...
The problem is finding a timing belt for the Masi and a tall deck.
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Doesn't the Masi use regular square tooth 8V cam gears? If you switch them to round tooth, I bet you could find a timing belt that will work. There are many round tooth belts that people have used for the hybrids. The round tooth profile is more common for timing belts anyway.
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Wouldn't be hard to make an adapter to offset the idler or tensioner either if that is an option.
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ShelGame
TD are thicker? Really? Pics? I have 2 TD blocks that I'd like to have bored 0.06" over...
I built a +.050 over 2.2 (2.3 now ha.ha) w/4 bolt main caps. Sonic testing said plenty of meat left. FWD book alludes to the fact they have thicker walls. Probably couldn't have done that on the other blocks. Bring those blocks in and have them sonic checked. that will tell you if you can go +.060.
Todd
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Re: Block differences with pictures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WickedShelby88
Looks like a TD would accept 4 bolts main caps as well with some machine work! I may definitely be getting a couple tall decks for a future project myself. There are a couple out in the local yard still complete from VC to oil pan. What kind of power are you running through one right now Rob?
Here is that +.050 TD. 4 bolt caps!:eyebrows::love:
Todd
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GLHNSLHT2
The problem is finding a timing belt for the Masi and a tall deck.
One of the problems when looking for timing belts is that they are listed by part # as an application, unlike regular v-belts which you can look up by size. No such catalog listing that I am aware of. Lord knows I've looked. Never can seem to find a timing belt listing for a TD 16V Masi.:confused2: Jay and myself both have mentioned building TD long rod Masi motors. Another issue putting them in an L-body is hood clearance. It's tight with a standard height deck. Adding another half inch isn't going to help matters. Might need to lower the motor in the engine bay a bit. That could throw axle geometry off.
Todd
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ShelGame
Doesn't the Masi use regular square tooth 8V cam gears? If you switch them to round tooth, I bet you could find a timing belt that will work. There are many round tooth belts that people have used for the hybrids. The round tooth profile is more common for timing belts anyway.
Yeah Rob the Masi uses a special offset square tooth crank snout gear, and the timing pulleys are cut about .100 thinner on inboard side to clear the head casting. Probably could be done converting, but it would be a challenge finding a belt and would require modifications to all four pulleys.
Besides we just got 25 sets of adj. Masi pulleys made.:nod:
Todd
Re: Block differences with pictures...
Looks like a nice KC article in the making, great info guys :clap: