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3D printing cylinder heads ???
Ok this question popped up with some friends while having a couple of cold ones. Instead of tying to find a good head then going though all the porting and machine work why not just get a head 3d printed with all they stuff done to it we want and crave it to have . Now i don't have any experience at all with printing parts. and i did find some Youtube videos of 911 head and a Ls block being printed in 82 hours out of aluminum so i know it can be done. Anyone know much on the topic ???
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
The cost would bowl you over. While possible the reverse engineering time and the time to print with materials would put these heads in the thousands.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
was thinking of mounting a damaged head in a bridge port and mill off 1mm at a time and 3d scan it then load data into a 3d cad .
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
I know only enough to ask if that block and head would last the 82 hours they took to print or were they "prototype models"
I know these days the manufacturers will print parts simply as part of the evolution of the piece or it's relevance to other parts
actual running engine parts from the printer might be .. scarey
even if the printer and the material are all fine I know enough from my father's experience selling non ferrous metals the user can have difficulties their own shop brings to the project
like chrysler's cadmium contaminated water pump bearings in the 50's hemi motors
cadmium dissolves in warm water ... oops
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
2.4L sounds so much cheaper and simpler.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Assuming you are referring to 8v heads, there is an aftermarket company that is currently producing them. I believe someone on here picked up one and it was decent quality.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
I want to do a billet 420A head with k series ports and solid lifter setup. Our intake ports flow decent, but 235cfm exhaust is hurting us. I would be happy even to do solid cast heads, with external cooling.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Would this be more or less time/effort/money than a cnc billet head?
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Nope im game for 8v, 12v, 24 valve as there is just only so many mods as the stock heads can only accommodate
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
It would do 3d casting molds and cast some heads haven't poured molten alu in a long long time in seems to have become a lost art.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
I have been to some presentations of metal 3D printing, the company does make useable parts but they are probably 50x more $$ than a cast product. As for durability airplanes are starting to use 3D printed metal parts, specifically in GE engines, (if I am remembering right) So durability can be there, but probably another decade or 2 before it is cost effective for a hobby job, would be my guess. But it would be awesome to reproduce, the TIII head, custom 8v heads, Hans Herman, and full custom
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
an 8V head with long valves and max wedge sized ports is about ALL we need
that would solve the need for more valves and cams right there
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Could it be done? Sure. It would cost more than just casting a custom head, though. Between the materials, machine time, and post-processing to get a truly functional product would shoot the cost right through the roof.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
if we as a group had the cash to back asking if brodix still have the tooling for those isma heads...we might have our 8V solution
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reaper1
Could it be done? Sure. It would cost more than just casting a custom head, though. Between the materials, machine time, and post-processing to get a truly functional product would shoot the cost right through the roof.
Maybe today, but some time soon it likely will become viable...
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boots
I want to do a billet 420A head with k series ports and solid lifter setup.
THIS!!!!!
man those K series make power with such low boost. like 400whp at ~10psi and other craziness. too bad they are a 94mm bore spacing vs ours at 96 lol.
Brian
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one thinking outside the box. I think it would be simple task for 4 piston to mod there billet head program and change he spacing.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
What do you mean by simple? That's a pretty major change. That's another associated cost. It's not impossible to create a head for these cars but the cost is something that maybe 5% would take advantage of. The number of sales that would result would be a complete waste for any company. R&D is expensive. A charge of $200 an hour is not unheard of.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
When all the drawing, design work, and machine work is completed. And all you have to do is go into program software and change a dimension (bore spacing and stud layout) To me is a lot more simple task than starting from scratch.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boots
When all the drawing, design work, and machine work is completed. And all you have to do is go into program software and change a dimension (bore spacing and stud layout) To me is a lot more simple task than starting from scratch.
It's more than just the combustion chambers and the studs. The cams change, the entire structure actually changes, gaskets, valve cover, etc etc...
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
If it's in cad/drawing already it is way easier to modify than to start from scratch. Yes a custom camshaft would need to be made its not rocket science. You would need cams made any way to work with our cam gears. Again its not rocket science, someone that knows what there doing
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
.....and all of that is in cad.
heads cams, gaskets, manifolds etc.
if someone is willing to spend the coin for a 4piston head anyway (it starts at 6000$) and do a ton of custom fab for a racecar, whats a little bit more lol.
the setup would be to get 4 piston some dodge 2.4 cad stuff and make a hybrid head that bolted on and used SRT cams and followers with the K series ports. it would probably be a one off 15k$ head but man would it perform.
Brian
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aries_Turbo
.....and all of that is in cad.
heads cams, gaskets, manifolds etc.
if someone is willing to spend the coin for a 4piston head anyway (it starts at 6000$) and do a ton of custom fab for a racecar, whats a little bit more lol.
the setup would be to get 4 piston some dodge 2.4 cad stuff and make a hybrid head that bolted on and used SRT cams and followers with the K series ports. it would probably be a one off 15k$ head but man would it perform.
Brian
For all that work, just run a Masi head and be done with it.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
I've talk to pro billet about doing heads, around $3500-$4000 per head min 4. But I want to work with someone in the US. If we go with a billet head, hydraulic lifters are going out the window. There is power to be made with solid lifer design, plus no issues with lifters pumping up.
Masi head?
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
https://all3dp.com/2/how-much-do-3d-...aterials-cost/
$4000-$5000 to print in metal. That does not include the cost to have 3D design made.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boots
I've talk to pro billet about doing heads, around $3500-$4000 per head min 4. But I want to work with someone in the US. If we go with a billet head, hydraulic lifters are going out the window. There is power to be made with solid lifer design, plus no issues with lifters pumping up.
Masi head?
The stock head on the Maserati TC with the 16V engine allegedly flows more than ported TIII heads. It is also cam on bucket, so say goodbye to lifter problems. Need to turn crazy high RPM? OK, that's not a problem either. People shy away from them due to the rarity and high cost to build one up vs. a 2.4 or TIII, but if you really want high performance, then they're where it's at.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Oh ok, I dont want to change bottom ends or auto transmission. I'm happy with 2.4 aluminum long rod setup, just want to get a better port design, no more lifters, and thicker deck to prevent flex.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boots
Oh ok, I dont want to change bottom ends or auto transmission. I'm happy with 2.4 aluminum long rod setup, just want to get a better port design, no more lifters, and thicker deck to prevent flex.
Reverse hybrid...
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
if one wanted to make a billet head I think doing it in layers about 1-2 inches thick to create a stack that then makes up the head .. when stacked might be the "easiest" solution
bottom piece is deck surface , combustion chamber , top side of roof of combustion chamber and the floors of some of the water jacketing
second layer .. more water jacketing and port runners & valve bowls
and so on as you go up
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cordes
The stock head on the Maserati TC with the 16V engine allegedly flows more than ported TIII heads. It is also cam on bucket, so say goodbye to lifter problems. Need to turn crazy high RPM? OK, that's not a problem either. People shy away from them due to the rarity and high cost to build one up vs. a 2.4 or TIII, but if you really want high performance, then they're where it's at.
Parts rarity for a race engine is usually a deal breaker. Any pass could be the last pass for any given component.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
the exuberant prices of those "rare" parts doesn't help
I know I want a 16V CB crank .. but I'm not interested in paying 1000-1200 bucks for a crank no one wants to use
but for 5-6 hun ... it becomes a nice "billet" to start making a "real" crank outta... and I'd rather invest the difference into that huge bill coming from the machine shop than a guy who allows parts no one needs to collect dust
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr. Johny Dodge
the exuberant prices of those "rare" parts doesn't help
I know I want a 16V CB crank .. but I'm not interested in paying 1000-1200 bucks for a crank no one wants to use
but for 5-6 hun ... it becomes a nice "billet" to start making a "real" crank outta... and I'd rather invest the difference into that huge bill coming from the machine shop than a guy who allows parts no one needs to collect dust
But nobody has really found the limit of even the standard cast cranks yet.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
lol,
well .. you work on that and I'll try to not find out what it takes to snap a 16v crank ... doing a few thousand laps .. hopefully
- I do have an acquaintance who could offer some comments on the cast cranks , ncb bottom ends and cracked blocks , if I ever see him again...
I'd like to affect the nature of the way the car drives also as part of the "experiment" as a similar mass revolving around a smaller center should spin up and slow down much differently than the same mass over a larger radius as mass is greater the further it is from center
and I see a lot of places to hack weight off that 16v crank , almost twice as many places in fact and with lighter , stronger rods , 4 bolt caps and a common block it makes some sense to try the "premium version" of the crank too as the double weighted crank is all about reduced stresses and improved stability of the block's mains
anywho sorry for the off topic.. "back to the top.."lol
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
contraption22
Parts rarity for a race engine is usually a deal breaker. Any pass could be the last pass for any given component.
No doubt. I would rather go with a Masi head than a custom made cyl. head for just that reason.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cordes
No doubt. I would rather go with a Masi head than a custom made cyl. head for just that reason.
But with CNC, you can always make another part.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
While I do enjoy this platform the thought of dropping $6k on a cylinder head in a car that's worth half that makes no sense.
At some point it just makes more sense to move to a different platform.
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
contraption22
But with CNC, you can always make another part.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What's the replacement cost and turnaround time?
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Re: 3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
going4speed
While I do enjoy this platform the thought of dropping $6k on a cylinder head in a car that's worth half that makes no sense.
At some point it just makes more sense to move to a different platform.
unless the low cost of the car enables you to spend "the money" elsewhere
we can find good cars and parts cheap - not so if you needed a cuda , challenger or road runner with a worthwhile shell , just to start
I know I can't find anything else <<that good for the same 25hun as <<
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3D printing cylinder heads ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cordes
What's the replacement cost and turnaround time?
Hard to tell as the part is still imaginary. But they aren’t making and new parts for 2.2 masi heads.
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