TIII Tuning: Is Megasquirt Worth It?

I am wanting to get a better tuning option for my 91 spirit r/t. Although I blew away a new 5.0 a few months ago :), my tune could definitely be better. I have ran a fwd performance stage 4 cal before and am now running a Paul V cal. Neither of them have been perfect although the fwd cal ran better at wot. I know boostbutton does flashable cals for tIII's now. I've read the long thread by DoubleD about his experience. My problem is I don't understand all that about tuning my own cals and it seems really complicated to me. Also, I don't know if my tuner would be able to us the mptune software or whatever it is to tune my car. Of course the route of going with a flashable socketed cal would be cheaper than going with megasquirt. I talked to my dyno tuner, Nigel, from Brutal Speed and tuning her in NC and asked him about it and he said he had worked with Megasquirt and was well versed in using it. He's is a very good tuner and the best as far as I can tell on the srt forums for the Nsrt4's and did a good job tuning my wife's PT Cruiser. I know the new megasquirt is suppose to be able to use many of our stock sensors. It can have a 4bar map I was told. I want my car to be rock solid on the fuel ratio. Stoich for idle, cruise and smooth deliver of 11-11.5 all throttle inputs whether part or wot when rpm and boost above 5 or so or whatever is correct on that, warrant it. My car currently has +40's and gt30 turbo running around 25psi boost with alky injection starting around 8psi. Rei, aka "Rattlesnake" on the forum, works on my car and has always done a good job. He likes the idea of megasquirt. Of course its up to me.

So, before I invest a hard earned $800 on Megasquirt and needed sensors, I guess my questions are:

Is it worth it using the new Megasquirt to have a smarter computer controlling the car versus the 91 SBEC?
Other than I know my tuner already is familiar with megasquirt, what other benefits would it have over other tuning options?
I know all setups are different but who has had any experience running the new megasquirt on our cars?

Sorry that I'm the first reply lol. There was a guy here on the forums named Unaclocker who did a very good job in pioneering the use of megasquirt on the 2.2s and 2.5s. He's since left the forums but his website "neonsquirt" is still up and has some good information. I just started building my MS2 V3.0 for my Omni. End goal is somewhere near 500whp with E85, Holset, BMFi, and the 4bar MAP I got with the kit. PM me and I can get you his name on Facebook, maybe you can get more info from him there. I will probably start a new write up on my progress with the megasquirt swap here soon

Learning how to tune with MPtuner is going to be a lot easier than installing Megasquirt.

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Originally Posted by tryingbe

Learning how to tune with MPtuner is going to be a lot easier than installing Megasquirt.

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But once you learn MP tune, you can tune Turbo Dodges. When you learn Megasquirt, you can tune anything.

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Originally Posted by contraption22

But once you learn MP tune, you can tune Turbo Dodges. When you learn Megasquirt, you can tune anything.

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Basic tuning essentially is watch for a/f ratio, watch knocks, adjust for more fuel, less fuel, more timing, less timing, etc. If you can learn to those basic steps in one software, you can learn to do it in another. But there are some people will never learn how to tune no matter how hard they try, it's just not their thing.

I have a Megasquirt 2 setup with a crank trigger for sale for $400 if you're interested. Came off a 91 Spirit RT I'm parting out, supposed to have a running base tune on it for a 2.5 stroker TIII. I'm not running it because I'm used to using MP Tune and know nothing about MS.

tuning is tuning regardless of the interface.

there is a learning curve.

megasquirt is sometimes easier because of the organization of the documentation and the sheer amount of people all over the world using it and tuning with it.

people tuning/explaining/working with our ECU's? Tens of people....

Megasquirt is a capable system but has a few caveats when used on our cars.

knock detection. MS3 is really the only system that has as concise of knock detection as our stock ecu. from what i remember (and its been a while) the MS2 requires an external box to detect knock and its only reading from the system every 25ms and there really isnt any external box to interface to the MS2 that is compatible with our motors. ours is reading every ignition event and 'stores' the knock signal till it can be read so an event isnt missed and it retards timing per cyl.

if you go MS2 or MS3, youll want to create a manual listening device (like DJ, Turboshad made....its in his shadow build thread) as you adjust ignition advance to make a safe map. MS3 however, once tuned, is better than our stock system.

I tried to make an external box that wouldnt miss signals and could interface to a MS2 (and output a pulse long enough so the MS would always see it) but im super bad at programming so i was relying on others (Risen on here) to do the program.... and program he did http://github.com/keith-daigle/avr-tpic8101-420a but he got busy and i got busy and we never finished or fully tested the system. i had it running on my neon for a while but didnt have an oscilloscope to test and make sure it was accurate.

if anyone is good at atmel/arduino programming or porting this to run on something faster lemme know. i dont have my neon anymore but i do have my reliant and there is a distributor style interface scheme programmed in and i have an oscilloscope too. ultimately to work on a TIII youd need to run a crank and cam trigger and program those into the knock system.... and run a faster processor than the atmega368 we were running.

Brian

Wiring is the first struggle. Then idle control is the next. Lots of people give up idle control with megasquirt.
The problem with Megasquirt is that the most knowledgeable users have little interest in racing or actually using the device. They want to tinker with it. They love screwing around with it all day long. You might not. I recently complained about the boost control scheme on facebook and the response was basically "we like it complicated and semi useless"
Spend a little bit more and you can get very straightforward system that is only meant to function properly. Add up the $ of an MSpro vs ProEFI (not purchased at retail, nobody should pay retail for those, you have to haggle over phone) and it gets interesting. No need for an external wideband controller from sketchy companies is my #1 issue. DIY needs to stop playing with Innovate and make their product a full solution. They need simple boost control, not duty cycles and other settings that allow you to use any sensor poorly. All to save 50 bucks on a Mac valve they make boost control something that will waste days of your life setting up. Guess and check boost control. :yuck:
Now, if you look at the basement products, MegaSquirt is a lot cheaper.
I am still not sure if I want to go MS3 type stuff or give up for something functional and pricey. I have to do it for at least 2 cars so I want everything to be similar. 2 learning curves is too much. Glad I am too busy to decide.
The reason nobody out there wants to tune a Megasquirt car is because of all the OEM sensors people try to use or different schemes available. Tuners have to figure out what is different with your setup instead of thinking "its just another proefi, aem, etc". They just don't want to do it.

Megasquirt is very easy to do a simple setup on. My MS2 fired up first attempt. Sadly it never seems to get much better. MS1 and MS2 are dead products, remember that.

As long as you can explain the software to the tuner you would probably have better results with the same effort. The money spend working on the car or fixing tuning issues is money you could have invested in better parts or a superior ECU.

Coolest feature is the Android applications that allow me to tune the car with my phone or any bluetooth capable tablet. Higher class ecu's prevent you from having easy access to your ECU. One way they extort you for easy $.

I have MS3 v3.57 w/MS3X on my SRT4 van. You have a guy to tune your MS but who's going to install and wire it? It took me 16 hours to separate the factory body and computer harnesses and then wire in the new harness. Also your probably going to be closer to $1200 if you include the expansion card like I did (for sequential fuel injection and waste spark), two wiring harnesses, 4 bar map sensor, knock controller, ignition module, peak and hold driver (if you run low impedance injectors), and connector kit.

My MS install starts at post 506. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...n-build/page26

Tuning is more difficult than installation. If you cant handle the wiring aspect you don't need to be tuning just yet.

MSI and MSII are obsolete discontinued products- there is no more active support for either of those systems from bowling and grippo, firmware upgrades are user created on those at this point.

With tuners not wanting to tune MS cars- that has to do with brand loyalty more than anything. If you are a a Ford tech you really dont want to get stuck trying to do a complex driveability diagnosis on a Toyota. Yeah you can probably do it, but why the hell would you want to? you would either lose money on it or have to massively overcharge the customer.

If you dont like the innovate wb, then use something else you like better? DIY is not the maker of MS- they are just a reseller, there is no reason to use the innovate wb if you dislike it. i had used a JAW wideband previously and it worked pretty well.

idle control and boost control are definately better on MSIII vs I or II

Thanks guys for the Info, I went with the ms3 but now I'm doing a shortblock rebuild since a rod went through my block. The ms3 was running great. The rod just gave out when driving easy. It was stock without ARP bolts I believe. This time all forged with h beams. I'm also removing the +40s and installing 72# injectors.

Glad to hear it is going back together!

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Originally Posted by tazaroo

Thanks guys for the Info, I went with the ms3 but now I'm doing a shortblock rebuild since a rod went through my block. The ms3 was running great. The rod just gave out when driving easy. It was stock without ARP bolts I believe. This time all forged with h beams. I'm also removing the +40s and installing 72# injectors.

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Was budget a factor in choosing MS3 over MS3-pro? Has anyone applied MS3-Pro to one of our engines?