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Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
I'm no newb when it comes to these cars, but I have had some real ---- luck with cars lately and I don't even have one anymore. I'm relying on the work/plow truck from my job which really sucks, but at least there is that.
My CSRT got smashed by a drunk/hit-and-run about 2 months ago..
Then my Buick Regal GS died (no spark or fuel apparently)
Now my gold Omni GLH Turbo died on the way to work this morning.
I've pulled the codes and only got a 43 and 55 (/end). Apparently the ignition coil failed. I went to NAPA to get a new one, and it didn't fix it. I found a spare HEP and tried that, but no dice. It had a crack in it, so I went back to NAPA to get a new one. The closest one they could find was in Louisiana (!) and it will take over a week to get here. I would pull the one out of my Shelby Lancer, but with the Masi 16v in it, it would be an absolute nightmare to get that in and out.
So I'm thinking it must have blown a fuse link, but they all look good. *Look* good anyway, I'll have to get my multimeter out to be sure. The only other thing I can think of is a possible ASD relay failure. I think that is hard-wired into the power module though.
Is there anything I'm missing? I hooked up a timing light to the coil wire and don't get any flash with the old or new coil, old or (even older?) HEP.
After all that, I finally gave up and had it towed home (-$80). I had to walk the rest of the way to work in 5' weather. It's been so cold out that working on cars is nearly impossible right now or downright painful. I thought of maybe a timing belt failure, but it sounds like it cranks over normally.....not the electric motor sound when only the bottom end spins.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
check the HEPS with a multi meter? put the original back it, it may have healed by now. fuel pressure?
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raccoon
check the HEPS with a multi meter? put the original back it, it may have healed by now. fuel pressure?
Do you have a procedure for this? I have used both a scope and logic analyzer but I am unsure with a meter.
I assume with a good meter you should see it bounce from zero to 8-9 Volts or so . 5 pulses on each HEP for every 720 degrees of crank rotation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
iTurbo
Is there anything I'm missing?
Code 43 can also be due to blown transistors in your PM that drives the coil.
http://minimopar.net/fault/code43.html
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
two things to check FIRST when log motor fails to start
ground strap from fuel rail to firewall
ground terminal on transmission with dinky little wire - near reverse switch
both result in cranking and cranking with no hope..
little ground wire on the trans burned my backside for a couple of weeks ...once
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr. Johny Dodge
two things to check FIRST when log motor fails to start
ground strap from fuel rail to firewall
ground terminal on transmission with dinky little wire - near reverse switch
both result in cranking and cranking with no hope..
little ground wire on the trans burned my backside for a couple of weeks ...once
Thanks guys, I will check all those. I don't have a scope though. I'm sure I have another power module around here somewheres.
Also, I forgot about that little ground wire with the huge lug (brown/yellow) on the trans bell housing. I think that is the ground for the starter relay though, so I'm not even sure it would crank over. I will definitely check that anyway.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Sorry to hear about your CSRT. :(
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chromguy
Do you have a procedure for this? I have used both a scope and logic analyzer but I am unsure with a meter.
I assume with a good meter you should see it bounce from zero to 8-9 Volts or so . 5 pulses on each HEP for every 720 degrees of crank rotation.
I would compare two parts. hoping for the similar values. might find something open then it would be obvious
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iTurbo
I thought of maybe a timing belt failure, but it sounds like it cranks over normally.....not the electric motor sound when only the bottom end spins.
It could have still jumped a few teeth. In fact, that just happened to one or our local members on his Shelby Lancer. Nothing made sense, everything "worked" but no go. The intermediate shaft had jumped enough teeth to make the distributor rotor line up almost backwards, and the belt looked perfectly fine. He put a new belt on anyways and it runs great now.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
My Omni started right up this morning like nothing was ever wrong! I still only get code 43.
Here is the fault code description from minimopar.net
Synopsis
Description: Ignition coil driver circuit open or shorted.
Power loss light: Off
Limp-in mode: None
Possible Causes
Bad connection or wiring - Check the wiring and connections between the ignition coil and the power module (or SMEC). Clean and regrease any corroded connectors with dielectric grease and repair any shorts.
Ignition coil driver transistor failure - Replace the power module (or SMEC).
Ignition coil failure - Using an ohmmeter, measure the resistance of the primary ignition coil between the two small stud on the top of the coil. It should measure about 0 ohms.
Diagnostic Method
Trigger Parameters
- Near 0V or near 12V not detected when the coil is turned on or off, respectively
Results If Component Fails
Fault code 43 is stored and the engine will stall.
I haven't touched it since replacing the ignition coil and trying another used HEP. Right now it has the new coil from NAPA and the same HEP the car was using before. I would think if the HEP was at fault, I would get a code 11 but I haven't seen that. I have a new one on the way from NAPA so at least I'll have a spare soon. I'm thinking this looks more like an intermittent connection in the wire harness. Hopefully with it running I can wiggle/move the harness and find it that way.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
You'll only get a code 11 if the computer has never seen a HEP signal.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cordes
You'll only get a code 11 if the computer has never seen a HEP signal.
Ah, I did not realize that! I will try disconnecting the battery for a while if/when it acts up and see if the code 11 sets then.
I don't dare drive it away from my house until I at least have a new HEP here.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
I tried another test just now. I went out to my Omni, and sure enough it won't start again. I haven't done anything to it since it started this morning and was idling fine....
Since it didn't start, I disconnected the battery for a while. I went back out to the car and reconnected it. It still wouldn't start. *Now* I get 12-43-55 for codes. The 12 is new since I disconnected the battery for a bit. Still no code 11 (HEP signal). And the 43 came back right away (still no start).
This is looking like the HEP is OK, but there is a problem in the ignition coil driver circuit or Z1 feed that feeds power to the ignition coil/injectors/O2 heater/fuel pump. Next I'm going to hook up a fuel pressure gauge and see if I even have fuel pressure to rule out the Z1 feed. (green/black wire).
EDIT: Plenty of fuel pressure while cranking and still no-start. 55-60 psi. I had to remove the schrader valve core on the fuel rail to hook up my gauge, so the fuel pump is most definitely getting power. Aside from trying another PM, tracing the ignition coil driver circuit (- side of ignition coil), I'm thinking of making a jumper wire to connect it directly to the PM's ignition coil driver output pin to see if that will wake it up.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
I swapped out the power module with a spare I had and it fires right up now.
Still a little nervous about driving it until I have a new HEP on hand, but it looks like that was it. First power module failure I've ever had. Chromguy wins!
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
I was thinking it might not hurt to pull the top half of the timing cover, bump the motor around and check for a "bald" spot on the belt
I really doubt it slipped until it started again , but..
power module
lol
I dropped the hood shut on my 86 daytona one night
fortunately I simply turned around and sat at the desk I had right in front of the car
about 30 seconds later I smell electrical fire smoke
...POURING out from behind the headlights
yep
something flaked out in my power module right then and there
just glad I didn't turn and go in the house (attached)
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iTurbo
Still a little nervous about driving it until I have a new HEP on hand
I would recommend you install the new HEP just to be sure it works as there is lots of aftermarket crap out there
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chromguy
I would recommend you install the new HEP just to be sure it works as there is lots of aftermarket crap out there
Definitely. I wish I could get a new Mopar one, but I think they are all aftermarket these days. I don't want to chance it until I least have a phillips screwdriver and a good spare HEP in the glovebox.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
man, you guys and I couldn't be more opposite when it comes to the oem heps
I HATE them
original source of the entire hep issue is the hard coating on the wires
I've used the SAME aftermarket hep in every car (4 now) since I pinched it used at the wreckers and stuck it in my pocket in ... 1995...
hell it's in my charger right now as it wouldn't start when I bought it 3 years ago
because of the o-e hep
came from canadian tire new
hell I've always tossed the o-e ones because I know they're gonna fail
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
I wouldn't doubt that the Mopar unit being superior is no longer the case or maybe never was. I bought a new HEP from Rock Auto for my old black GLH Turbo. It uses an '85 unit, and it was the only place I could even find it! If I remember right, it was an Airtex/Wells unit and it has been fine for years.
Also, I just noticed that Rock Auto caries A-1 Cardone '86-up reman distributors that *include* the turbo HEP for a whole $18.59, no core required. I picked up that and a United Motor Products "tune-up kit" that includes a cap/rotor/wires and now I'll have a complete spare distributor for less than $40.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
I've only had 2-3 HEPS actually fail on me in the entire time I've owned TMs. That's closing in on two decades now. At the same time, it was just recently that someone posted up a file showing an oscilloscope reading which showed that an aftermarket unit did indeed put out a different pattern than a stock one. I've used both with excellent results.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iTurbo
I wouldn't doubt that the Mopar unit being superior is no longer the case or maybe never was. I bought a new HEP from Rock Auto for my old black GLH Turbo. It uses an '85 unit, and it was the only place I could even find it! If I remember right, it was an Airtex/Wells unit and it has been fine for years.
Also, I just noticed that Rock Auto caries A-1 Cardone '86-up reman distributors that *include* the turbo HEP for a whole $18.59, no core required. I picked up that and a United Motor Products "tune-up kit" that includes a cap/rotor/wires and now I'll have a complete spare distributor for less than $40.
Jeremy, Be careful using Cardone reman'ed stuff. I've seen some awfully shady parts come from Cardone. So bad if fact, in one case the reman'ed replacement part was WAY worse than the part I was taking off! For spare parts, I guess but beware. I would love to take apart that distributor (removing shaft etc.) and see what It looks like.
Todd
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cordes
it was just recently that someone posted up a file showing an oscilloscope reading which showed that an aftermarket unit did indeed put out a different pattern than a stock one..
That someone was me!! I used a logic analyzer to produce the data.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
4 l-bodies
Jeremy, Be careful using Cardone reman'ed stuff. I've seen some awfully shady parts come from Cardone. So bad if fact, in one case the reman'ed replacement part was WAY worse than the part I was taking off! For spare parts, I guess but beware. I would love to take apart that distributor (removing shaft etc.) and see what It looks like.
Todd
I've gotten A-1 Cardone reman rack & pinions from Rock Auto before (my SL and R/T) and no problems so far here. Remans are a bit of a crap shoot though. Even if the distributor itself isn't good, if I get a good HEP out of it for $18 I'll be happy. I have a few good '86-up bare distributors anyway.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Since we're talking failed HEP's here, I had a new one on me last weekend. I've been chasing multiple issues on my freshly built 2.5 in Woody the turbo Mini, too much to go into here but it's been frustrating the F outta me:mad: Last weekend I made more changes cam out *again, etc,etc but when I fired it again it was better but still rough. Fortunately it was getting dark, dark enough to see sparks dancing back and forth between the two HEP wires!:confused: I pulled it out and inspected it, didn't see any breaks in the insulation but they were a little damaged where the dist cap seats. Swapped out for a spare J yard and bingo! roughness and stumbling is gone! Thru that other one in the trash so it doesn't end up getting used again:amen:
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
2.216VTurbo
I pulled it out and inspected it, didn't see any breaks in the insulation but they were a little damaged where the dist cap seats
I have fixed a few "BAD" ones by cutting out the section where the dist cap seals. Resolder and away they go. I believe the reason they break is the lack of strain relief.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
My gold Omni has been great in the last few days with just the power module replacement. It's still using the HEP that came in the car when I bought it, and actually it still has the same Mopar coil too, which might be original for all I know (90k miles).
I did have an early ('85) HEP that 'worked' once, but it made a scraping sound inside the distributor cap. Apparently it was a manufacturing defect and the shutter wheel was physically contacting the hall effect magnets. It has been fine with a cheap replacement from Rock Auto. :shrug:
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iTurbo
. It's still using the HEP that came in the car when I bought it, and actually it still has the same Mopar coil too,
I am the only owner of my 87 DD, it is still running the original HEP, coil with wire/distro cap a rotor. The only electrical issue was a faulty Air charge sensor 25 years ago.
Last year I changed the timing belt just because I thought I should. My wife's Toyota truck 2005 appears to be just as reliable.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Well I spoke too soon. The Omni was fine after the power module replacement for about a week. It died while I was on the way to a job site today, but thankfully it died on our property so it's not like it has to be towed asap like before. Same situation; the only code 43 (ignition coil) came back, and it cranks over fine and has fuel pressure. I can't believe I had two PM fails in a week.
It is supposed to get down to -20F this weekend, so it will be next week before I touch it. My parts showed up from Rock Auto though, so I now have two new HEPs, a complete distributor with wires, and a new ignition coil. I also have another spare PM to try.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
icy map sensor or vac system ???
a buddy had a shelby charger in the way back that sprayed salt water through a small hole right beside the bottom of the LM
fubar'd the inside of the screw on map sensor
swapped (and bagged) and good to go
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
I'll look into that too. It is fairly high and dry here, but brutally cold lately.
One thing that has happened in the last week, is that the charging voltage has dipped and I get belt screech. I've also had some fuel leakage out of some hoses that I need to address. It's crazy what the cold will do to rubber and then all sorts of crap happens.
Anyway, about the charging voltage dipping....could that be 'hard' on a PM and the ignition coil driver (transistors)? I'm thinking possibly because I know some things, like light bulb filaments will fail prematurely if not driven at proper voltage. Just a hunch I guess.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iTurbo
Anyway, about the charging voltage dipping....could that be 'hard' on a PM and the ignition coil driver (transistors)? I'm thinking possibly because I know some things, like light bulb filaments will fail prematurely if not driven at proper voltage. Just a hunch I guess.
Transistors will be fine with lower voltages as they are designed to function this way. They do have voltages maximums but it is unlikely your voltage reg can run that high. 35-50V are typically voltage max.
How are you with electronics? I do have partial schematics for the PM that may be helpful in checking the PM.
Could we be having a bad connection at a connector perhaps? Could 30 years of corrosion causing an issue ?
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
It’s probably a connector issue. My car had issues until I pulled the PM connectors and carefully bent all the terminals back in so they would make a better connection at the module. Clean them up, bend the terminals back, apply fresh dielectric grease.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
re the barrel style terminal in the plugs
DON'T stick anything into them thinking your gonna scrape the crud out
there is a tang inside the barrel that actually makes contact with the pin on the PM/SMEC etc
I had a buddy do this with my torch tip cleaner tool one night
yes we spent the rest of the evening searching another set of connectors outta my basement and splicing them on ...
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Aries_Turbo suggested using Deoxit D5 (an high end audio contact cleaner) . I bought a can sitting on the shelf ready for action.
https://caig.com/
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chromguy
Transistors will be fine with lower voltages as they are designed to function this way. They do have voltages maximums but it is unlikely your voltage reg can run that high. 35-50V are typically voltage max.
How are you with electronics? I do have partial schematics for the PM that may be helpful in checking the PM.
Could we be having a bad connection at a connector perhaps? Could 30 years of corrosion causing an issue ?
I am also thinking it must be a connector issue, probably the 10-way right on the PM. Unfortunately the barrel pins inside aren't removable, so hopefully I can make it right without having to chop/splice on a whole good connector. I know the ignition coil driver is position #1 on that plug and the black/yellow wire.
I am not very good with electronics...but I do know my way around the wire harnesses pretty well. I would certainly try to open the PM and find the transistors that drive the coil and test them with a multimeter. Are they buried under thick potting compound? It would be nice to know for sure before I throw them out.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
how did the ground check go? a set of booster cables can add some grounds in a second.
I had a bad asd relay once, it was mounted upside down and condensation caused it to fail. I chased that relay problem for months. had the whole harness cut open looking for a short. just another thing.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raccoon
how did the ground check go? a set of booster cables can add some grounds in a second.
I had a bad asd relay once, it was mounted upside down and condensation caused it to fail. I chased that relay problem for months. had the whole harness cut open looking for a short. just another thing.
I haven't been able to try yet. It's been waaaay below zero this whole weekend and the car is still stalled out near my work place. -17'F when I got up this morning! I can't wait for spring to arrive because I will be doing a whole lot of maintenance and updates to the car.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iTurbo
...but I do know my way around the wire harnesses pretty well. I would certainly try to open the PM and find the transistors that drive the coil and test them with a multimeter. Are they buried under thick potting compound? It would be nice to know for sure before I throw them out.
The good news, its functionality can be troubleshooted without opening it up! When you are ready, LMK and I can help you. I also have a few on the shelf that I can test. I believe they are potted but I only have mine opened to see if they were similar to the power board inside the SMEC. I will check after lunch as I am replacing a rotor on the Sundance.
Partial schematics
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...lBxek1ReXRiVVU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...Gc1ZFF4S051eDQ
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
Clean out all the old dielectric grease. Grab a small pointy pick and a magnifying glass. Look inside the PM terminals on the harness connector. You’ll see the metal tangs that need to stick out to make contact with the male side on the PM. Carefully use the pick to bend them back outward so they make good contact again. Apply dielectric grease on the OUTSIDE/around the connector. Remember, the grease only keeps water out. Applying it to the terminals can cause the pin to make poor contact again. Liquids/solids don’t compress. Grease on the terminal will actually push the tang and bend it back the wrong way. People use dielectric grease too liberally thinking it will help the connection. There is a product called stabilant 22a. It is a liquid you apply to terminals and it actually helps make electrical contact when dry. Very $$$$ but I’ve used it many times with good results.
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Re: Omni GLH Turbo suddenly dead
if you need to replace a barrel connector it can be done
another connector pigtail with wires has to be sacrificed though
hack a connector and wire free of the part source connector
clip the wire off the location where the terminal needs replaced
cut it flush with the connector body
now slowly drill out the wire and barrel connector
slide the new terminal in from the PM/smec side with a little dab of silicone and splice it back to the wire you cut
go slow
use a drill bit notably smaller than the hole for the wire and terminal
better to work it lose because it got warm from the friction of the bit...
success rate goes up splicing on only one needed terminal
adding another entire connector opens the opportunity for another .. or two . four bad connections you just installed
especially with 30 odd year old connectors