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Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
I was experiencing electrical issue with my car and decided it isn't worth my time to troubleshoot the 32 year old computers or wiring. Wanting to keep the car, aftermarket ECU is the only option and Megasquirt / Microsqurit sounded good.
Wanting to keep everything simple, I went with batch firing injectors and waste spark ignition system, so the compact\slightly cheaper Microsquirt would work fine for me. I will only need one crank sensor and a 36-1 wheel welded to my crank since factory turbo HEP is not supported and I never like that HEP sensor anyways.
For reference.
Quote:
The LM used a Motorola 6803U4 processor operating at 1 MHz, with 256 bytes of RAM and either two 8K EPROMs or one 16K EPROM.
From 1988–1989, a SMEC (Single Module Engine Controller) was used. This was a complete redesign of the older system, using modern CAD for board design, and higher density SMD components. The processor was a 68HC11 operating at 2 MHz with 256 bytes of RAM and a 32K EPROM. Functionally, the SMEC was the combination of the earlier Logic and Power modules into one unit. Starting in 1990, a more advanced SBEC (Single Board Engine Controller) was used, which integrated the earlier two board computer into a single board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysl...%26_2.5_engine
MicroSquirt uses 16-bit MC9S12C64 at 24 MHz, ROM is 128 kB, and RAM is 4 kB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaSquirt
My Microssquirt input/outputs are the following.
Inputs are:
crank/hall sensor, shielded from the shielding of a coax cable. Thank you A. J. for the tip. (no need for cam sensor)
coolant temperature sensor (Chrysler sensor)
air temperature sensor (open element Chrysler sensor)
throttle position sensor (Stock Chrysler sensor)
ethanol sensor (GM sensor)
o2 sensor (AEM Uego with 5v output)
manifold absolute pressure sensor (GM 3 bar map)
knock sensor - All MS needs a knock sensor controller. I use lilknockmeter by http://www.insaneimportperformance.com/ which can display light, has headphone output, has on/off digital output, as well as analogue output... :yeah!: Dodge 2.2/2.5 are very noise engines. Stock ECU consider .8V is a knock at 2000rpm, while it consider 4V is a knock at 4000RPM. So I need something that can give me an analogue output.
A/C sense wire - wired to the a/c control so microsquirt can raise idle speed if a/c is on.
Outputs are:
idle control, ford PWN idle valve. Edit: Upgraded to Volvo BOSCH valve.
tachometer
two set of Ignition coil (goes to 420a coil)
two set of injectors (75lbs low impedance injectors with a Volvo injector resistor)
a/c cut off relay wire
fan relay wire - works great.
fuel pump relay wire
Boost control is handle by my HDi electronic boost controller, and I am very happy with that.
Added an external voltage regulator, super easy to do.
Megasquirt has more options I'm sure, but I don't need them, why pay for them?
I have almost $1500 into parts plus shipping
Microsquirt + 8 ft harness $369
36-1 wheel $32.00
Weld 36-1 wheel to crank $100
crank sensor $43
QuadSpark $89.00
MAP sensor connector $8.50
MAT sensor connector $10.00
ECT sensor connector $10.00
TPS sensor connector $10.00
420A wires $20
420A coil $20
Wiring Connector packs $30
USB to serial $15
Misc wires $40
Uninsulated crimp $20
Crimp tool $13
Shrink Wrap $10
Misc bolts $15
Relay $15
Fusebox $25
Fuses $5
E85 sensor + connector $80
lilknockmeter $120
Bosch knock sensor + wire connector and stud. $40
Injector resister $30
wire loop $20
On/off Solenoid valve for idle control $30 (upgraded to a FORD PWM idle valve for wider RPM control). Edit: upgraded to Volvo BOSCH valve for more air flow for my a/c control.
3m tape $6
Tuner Studio + Megaviewer $80
etc...
Separating engine harness with body harness.
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe..._185546916.jpg
Test Mounted.
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe..._153220654.jpg
All needed wires labeled.
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe..._175724840.jpg
Made bracket for crank sensor.
http://thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dod...and%20whee.jpg
Welded and ready to be worked on.
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe.../36-1crank.jpg
Painted the crank and reinforced bracket.
http://thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dod..._182613351.jpg
Mounted my 420a coil on my distributor, after taking all the moving parts out of the distributor. The distributor mounted like that is due to lack of space. I'd like to change my oil filter without taking the coil out.
Some people have coil on plug, I have coil on distributor
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe...quirt/coil.jpg
After some long hours, the car started on Microsquirt yesterday. :D
Top right corner is my ethanol sensor.
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe...rt/started.jpg
I still have a lot to do but just hearing it start again was so nice. Now is clean up and tuning time.
http://minimopar.net/ and factory repair manual will be your best friends. Thank you Russ W. Knize for minimopar!
Micrsosquirt Manual http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/...dware-3.4.html
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Cool news!
Glad it is back running.
I must say, i have thought about this too for when we can no longer justify keeping old wiring working.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wheming
I must say, i have thought about this too for when we can no longer justify keeping old wiring working.
My hazard has never worked since I bought the car over 10 years ago. While I was adding fuse boxes for Microsquirt, I figured out why. The wire is corroded at least 10 inch inside the insulation after the fusible link.
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe...t/corroded.jpg
Now my hazard light works perfectly.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Seems like the way to go to me. I'm not super confident in the old harness wires, etc, when they could cause major destruction on a "hopped-up" engine if say an injector driver gets wonky...
Curious as to the tune, is there an easy way to import the spark/fuel tables from one of the existing cals (mopar perf or turbonator)? Having to re-invent the wheel in for the new ECU would be a pain...
Mike
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
I don't know if I could justify a 1k when I can burn chips and datalog for $150 but it would be nice to have some modern tech. I'm assuming you marked the crank pulley so you don't put it on wrong if you ever have to remove it?
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
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Originally Posted by
thedon809
I don't know if I could justify a 1k when I can burn chips and datalog for $150 but it would be nice to have some modern tech. I'm assuming you marked the crank pulley so you don't put it on wrong if you ever have to remove it?
I burnt those chips and used ostrich, made 290WHP with it too. But let me ask you this, when the 32 year old wiring and computers give out and you want to keep the car, what would you do? Put another 30 year old wiring in there? For me, it's either put money in or part it out.
If you open the picture of the painted crank pulley, you'll see a triangle pointing at the crank sensor.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
What's the part number/application for your IAT sensor?
What do you think about the knocksense? I've been thinking about adding that to mine but I don't know if I could put my trust in it. Does it work well enough to rely on or is it more of a worst case scenario warning?
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
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Originally Posted by
lightbulb010
What's the part number/application for your IAT sensor?
What do you think about the knocksense? I've been thinking about adding that to mine but I don't know if I could put my trust in it. Does it work well enough to rely on or is it more of a worst case scenario warning?
I don't remember. You can go get one here. https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...-with-pigtail/
I'm still at only idling the car, can't take it anywhere yet.
Why can't you put your trust in knocksense? You trust your factory knock system, don't you? Knocksense can send signal to the MS as well as flash a LED to let you know knock detected, sounds like a win to me.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tryingbe
I burnt those chips and used ostrich, made 290WHP with it too. But let me ask you this, when the 32 year old wiring and computers give out and you want to keep the car, what would you do? Put another 30 year old wiring in there? For me, it's either put money in or part it out.
If you open the picture of the painted crank pulley, you'll see a triangle pointing at the crank sensor.
Rebuild it most likely. At least when I swapped my Omni to smec I went through every inch of the new harness. It's not too hard to pull the entire harness on these cars. Not like some of the newer cars I've worked on. If I did something like this it would be more for the newer faster computer than the wiring. Oh ok, so if you put the car at #1 TDC the arrow would be pointing at the crank sensor?
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thedon809
Rebuild it most likely. At least when I swapped my Omni to smec I went through every inch of the new harness. It's not too hard to pull the entire harness on these cars. Not like some of the newer cars I've worked on. If I did something like this it would be more for the newer faster computer than the wiring.
I remember spending days to figure out why the alternator wouldn't charge. It turned out to be a pin not making good contact inside the LM plug to the LM, that was the first week of owning the car. Reverse lights not working? Light bulb connector corroded. Hazard lights not working? 12v feed AFTER fusible links corroded, no tear or rip, just corroded. Turning A/C on and made the car goes to 12 A/F at idle, nope tuning it out will make normal idle rich. Car runs perfect one second, and next second it needs a re-scale of injectors to make everything 17% richer? Yeah, thanks, but no thanks, not troubling shooting that. Time for me to move on and leave the 30 year old wiring and computers out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thedon809
Oh ok, so if you put the car at #1 TDC the arrow would be pointing at the crank sensor?
You got it.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zin
Seems like the way to go to me. I'm not super confident in the old harness wires, etc, when they could cause major destruction on a "hopped-up" engine if say an injector driver gets wonky...
Curious as to the tune, is there an easy way to import the spark/fuel tables from one of the existing cals (mopar perf or turbonator)? Having to re-invent the wheel in for the new ECU would be a pain...
Mike
I dunno about tuning the OE tables, but if you can put those tables in excel, you can dump them into Tunerstudio (the tuning software for MegaSquirt)
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
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Originally Posted by
contraption22
I dunno about tuning the OE tables, but if you can put those tables in excel, you can dump them into Tunerstudio (the tuning software for MegaSquirt)
timing you most definitely can.
fuel.... fuel is a little stickier. you could calculate a map of pulsewidths from a solidly tuned cal to get the shape of the VE map. then measure what VE value gets you a given pulsewidth in a low RPM WOT (less dangerous) part of the MS map and convert the pulsewidth map to VE values as a base tune maybe.
fuel is pretty easy on MS though with the autotune part of tunerstudio.
Brian
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
i so want to put a microsquirt on my suzuki GS1100E.
Brian
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Harry - you're way better than me. Cool beans.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
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Originally Posted by
Aries_Turbo
i so want to put a microsquirt on my suzuki GS1100E.
Brian
You have got kids, AND you get to keep your bike?
Geez.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
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Originally Posted by
wheming
You have got kids, AND you get to keep your bike?
Geez.
"You realize that you are arguing against bikes with a dude that grew up on the back of his mom's and dads bikes?" Brian Bucar said to his wife.....
I'm super careful and wear lots of gear. :-)
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tryingbe
I don't remember. You can go get one here.
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...-with-pigtail/
I'm still at only idling the car, can't take it anywhere yet.
Why can't you put your trust in knocksense? You trust your factory knock system, don't you? Knocksense can send signal to the MS as well as flash a LED to let you know knock detected, sounds like a win to me.
It's not that I couldn't put my trust in it, but I wouldn't unless I knew how well it actually works. By that I mean whether or not it's able to be sensitive to slight knock without being falsely triggered by other engine noises. I know a lot of people have used it but there are a lot of factors that come into play for a knock detection system. For example a 2.2l in a cavalier(push-rods) may or may not be able to have as sensitive of a knock detection system as a Chrysler 2.2l could just due to the extra noise I would imagine is transmitted into the block through the valvetrain. Also, Just because they are both 2.2l engines doesn't necessarily mean that the audio frequency that knocking will produce will be the same due to the block being vastly different.
I'm not, by any means, trying to say that knocksense is a bad product or that it's not effective. I just don't have any experience with it or any similar systems and I was wondering what your thoughts are.
You're going to love megasquirt by the way. I love being able to make changes on the fly and the flexibility of the system. Tuning closed-loop idle is a little tedious but once you have it dialed in it never fails.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
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Originally Posted by
lightbulb010
You're going to love megasquirt by the way. I love being able to make changes on the fly and the flexibility of the system. Tuning closed-loop idle is a little tedious but once you have it dialed in it never fails.
I'm not running air conditioning, so it's easier for me, but I have gotten my idle pretty stable just by adjusting timing and fuel. My IAC is blocked off.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Just an FYI, the factory HEP will work with Megasquirt. I know a guy running it on his carbed car.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Force Fed Mopar
Just an FYI, the factory HEP will work with Megasquirt. I know a guy running it on his carbed car.
No, the turbo HEP doesn't work, coding is wrong. The n/a HEP might, but why keep the hep and distributor? It's a perfect time to get rid of them both.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tryingbe
No, the turbo HEP doesn't work, coding is wrong. The n/a HEP might, but why keep the hep and distributor? It's a perfect time to get rid of them both.
Because it doesn't require custom wheels and brackets. I don't see why it can't work, if an NA HEP works. Both are just simple Hall Effect sensors, same as many other sensors. 8v input, sensor ground and signal out.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Force Fed Mopar
Because it doesn't require custom wheels and brackets. I don't see why it can't work, if an NA HEP works. Both are just simple Hall Effect sensors, same as many other sensors. 8v input, sensor ground and signal out.
Quote:
Alert! This wheel decoder has some serious issues if you’re running sequential injection. May also have some issues with wasted spark. Ask James Murray to fix the decoder if you want to use this. Otherwise, I recommend a 36-1 trigger wheel instead. It’s especially bad on the MS3 where he attempted to improve the decoder, but gave up after it got far worse.
You’ve been warned.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160912...egaSquirt.html
I'm happy to get rid of the HEP sensor and plastic welded distributor. No more bad HEP sensor or its wiring.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tryingbe
That makes sense. My friend is running fuel control also using a stock carb HEP, but it's a IDF based TBI system, not sequential.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Force Fed Mopar
That makes sense. My friend is running fuel control also using a stock carb HEP, but it's a IDF based TBI system, not sequential.
Marty's car?
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thedon809
Marty's car?
Yes :nod:
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
contraption22
I'm not running air conditioning, so it's easier for me, but I have gotten my idle pretty stable just by adjusting timing and fuel. My IAC is blocked off.
CL idle definitely isn't 100% necessary. My engine would idle well without it but it would speed up as it got warmer. When it's 20 degrees in the winter, the temperature range is so great that it would be idling at 1200 rpm when warm if I set the throttle stop to a good spot for a cold start. You definitely need to get the spark and fuel tables right with or without CL idle. This is very important. Without them being set up correctly you'll never get closed loop idle to work right. It will hunt. It's not a band aid for a crappy tune by any means just a supplement. It helps to create a section of the spark table just below your idle speed with a couple extra degrees of advance over what your engine needs to idle. I think this is mentioned in the manual somewhere. Driving slowly through parking lots and parking was another area where the idle control helped me. The power steering bogging down the engine was somewhat annoying without the idle control working correctly. Then things like the blower motor and radiator fan all affect idle speed. I also use the idle advance control.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Nice work Harry. Professional looking install!
Is that a pressure transducer on the wastegate actuator line?
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wheming
Nice work Harry. Professional looking install!
Is that a pressure transducer on the wastegate actuator line?
No, boost is controlled by my HDi Electronic boost controller and the MAC solenoid valve.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tryingbe
No, boost is controlled by my HDi Electronic boost controller and the MAC solenoid valve.
Yes, but what is that tee'd into the line that appears to be for the wastegate actuator?
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wheming
Yes, but what is that tee'd into the line that appears to be for the wastegate actuator?
Hobbs pressure switch that activates at 0psi to open the solenoid to allow blowby to go from valve cover to pre-turbo pipe.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
That answers both of the questions I had. Cool setup. Wiring harness looks pretty clean.:thumb:
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
RPM signal got distorted over 2400rpm, a friend suggest to check the air gap between the crank sensor and the wheel, it was between 2-3mm. Adjust it to .5mm and RPM signal is now fine. :)
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
I just did emission and the car runs cleaner than it ever did on stock computer. I will definitely pick up more MPG as I can set cruising at 16:1 vs stock 13.7-14.1:1 ratio. I noticed when I set ignition timing with stock computer and distributor at idle speed, timing always jumps from between 10 BDC to 14BDC, it would NEVER settle at just 12 BDC like the factory manual calls for. With Microsquirt and a 36-1 wheel, ignition timing is bang on EVERY time.
Very happy with result and money well spent.
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
That's awesome:thumb:. I'm not against the stock electronics in any way. I think there are many advantages to using them in modified form(I tried my best with the 3.0l). They are very dated though. It would be awesome if someone could make an updated "stock" computer. The actual software is excellent and very well thought out. It was compromised by the limitations of the hardware though. The adaptives work awesome and with a faster processor and more memory a lot more could be done. All I'm trying to say here is that I understsand why more people haven't gone megasquirt on here and I was conflicted in my decision in doing so.
Can't say anything about emissions as there is no testing done here in WI, but it doesn't surprise me at all that you are getting better results in that regard. Are you using the EGO control feature? It helps a lot with consistency. Especially at idle when you're using low pulsewidths. I noticed a pretty big difference in fuel efficiency. My tune is set up to give me better fuel efficiency in cruise situations but it's aggressive on fuel under harsh driving circumstances. I had an auto when I switched so the MPG difference seemed less to me but it was still significant. I swapped in the 5-speed after I was already running ms2. I could definitely get better gas mileage but I like my balanced tune. I get around 30mpg in a V6 van with an a543. I will only get about 26 if I'm hard on it. That's beyond satisfactory IMO in a 3000~lb vehicle. With the auto I only got about 20-22 with megasquirt and about 18-20 with the stock SMEC and no LC-1 trickery. That's without lockup working driving at 55mph BTW. I could get 27 on the stock computer with the auto if I lowered fuel pressure and tricked the SMEC with the LC-1 (I had at the time) and a manual lockup switch. I have all 6 injectors on the same driver and fuel pressure fixed at 48psi. Mine is a worst case scenario setup and it works. Very well.
It sounds like you're using low impedance injectors. Are you configuring megasquirt for that with the current limiting settings or are you treating them like high impedance injectors?
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lightbulb010
That's awesome:thumb:. I'm not against the stock electronics in any way. I think there are many advantages to using them in modified form(I tried my best with the 3.0l). They are very dated though. It would be awesome if someone could make an updated "stock" computer. The actual software is excellent and very well thought out. It was compromised by the limitations of the hardware though. The adaptives work awesome and with a faster processor and more memory a lot more could be done.
I would agree with stock software is really well written, way ahead of its time. While sounds good in theory, I don't see it ever happening in practice with someone making a updated "stock" computer. There is no market for it.
On top of that, Chrysler's no longer available 2.2/2.5 hall effect pickup sensor, often DOA aftermarket HEP sensor, its 30 year old wiring connector, distributor, plastic welded shutter wheel, single coil setup, are all weak points in my opinion. I was happy to get rid of all of those parts with a crank sensor, a 36-1 wheel, and a 420a coilpack. Did I mention my ignition timing is spot on every time!? Try to get a stock 2.2/2.5 to do just that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lightbulb010
Are you using the EGO control feature?
You mean wideband o2 feedback? Yes, I am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lightbulb010
It sounds like you're using low impedance injectors. Are you configuring megasquirt for that with the current limiting settings or are you treating them like high impedance injectors?
I have inline resistors wired in the injectors, I would assume that is the same as treating them as high impedance injectors?
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tryingbe
With Microsquirt and a 36-1 wheel, ignition timing is bang on EVERY time.
That right there might be worth the price of admission. Nothing will kill any engine faster than bad timing/detonation, and even if all it does is keep you from having to do a head gasket, it's probably worth the $$ to not have to spend the time/frustration.
On a side note, I'm curious how much less expensive Micro is vs. Mega. I know I can just look up the prices, but that never includes all the details, like having a timing wheel made, etc. The point being to help decide if "going big" would be materially more expensive, or worth the extra $$ to allow for expansion into other features in the future...
I'm excited to see how much things improve over factory electronics, I've always thought that they were what was really holding back the potential of our cars...
Mike
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Re: Microsquirt (less expensive/super compact/less feature version of megasquirt)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zin
On a side note, I'm curious how much less expensive Micro is vs. Mega. I know I can just look up the prices, but that never includes all the details, like having a timing wheel made, etc. The point being to help decide if "going big" would be materially more expensive, or worth the extra $$ to allow for expansion into other features in the future...
My Microsquirt total cost and break down is listed in the first page, $1226. Only cost not included is cost of welding the crank sensor bracket. Bracket is made with some 1/4 inch metal welded to a stock bracket that bolts to the alternator bracket and motor mount. Short, strong, and everything.
http://thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dod...and%20whee.jpg
My friend can supply 36-1 wheel ring that will fit a common block crank pulley, you'll just have to weld then together yourself. I started an interest thread, but there doesn't seem to be any interest.
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...est&highlight=