86' GLH-S - hard to start, rough idle when cold, low oil pressure when warm, and gas

Hey Guys,

I have been trying to find a good mechanic in my area (anywhere in socal if you have recommendations) to no avail so it looks like I have to tackle this myself. Here are my three problems

1. The car is hard to start - It takes 30-45s of cranking and lots of pumping the gas pedal to get the car to start at all. It seems like this could be an injector issue from my googling, but I want to get opinions based on everything that is happening.
2. Rough idle when cold - Once the car does start I have a super lumpy idle until it warms up and have to realy give the engine some beans to not stall when pulling away. Once the engine is warm the idle is nice and smooth, but it is still almost impossible to pull away without a decent bit of throttle regardless of how well I feather the clutch (and I DD a 45 hp beetle so I know damn well how to feather a clutch on a no torque car)
3. Once the engine is warm my oil pressure falls down to 1/4 the way up the gauge from the bottom and stays pegged right there. Im assuming that is lower than it should be but I honestly have no idea since I have 0 experience with these engines
4. When I do give it the beans once it is all nice and warm I have a little bit of a gas smell.

Where would you guys even recommend I start? The car did just sit on a dealer lot not moving or starting for moths, but the records show it has at least had a full flush of all of its fluids less than a hundred miles ago (though the oil doesnt look super clean tbf). Do I start at the basics and do a full general tuneup? Anything to watch out for specifically? I had honestly not planned to work on this car myself, but given the 0 luck I have had finding mechanics that will even take it in my area it looks like I'm going to have to.


Thanks in advance,
-esk

Pull the codes. Check the plugs. Report back on those and that will tell a lot of the tale. Smell the oil too. Does it look OK and smell like oil rather than gas?

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Originally Posted by cordes

Pull the codes. Check the plugs. Report back on those and that will tell a lot of the tale. Smell the oil too. Does it look OK and smell like oil rather than gas?

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http://minimopar.net/fault/index.html

Did you check that ignition timing yet Joe? I looked at this car at last weeks SoCal Applebees meet and its a well taken care of 86S-but needs TLC. The distributor was 30 degrees off, could be I Shaft outta position but needs investigating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2.216VTurbo

Did you check that ignition timing yet Joe? I looked at this car at last weeks SoCal Applebees meet and its a well taken care of 86S-but needs TLC. The distributor was 30 degrees off, could be I Shaft outta position but needs investigating.

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Im actualy doing it right now. I cant see the timing mark at all though (kinda suprised the engine seems to run well when warm if the timing is [i]that/i] out). Anyone mind verifying it at least looks like im doing everything right?

https://youtu.be/4NeIGk5mXgg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cordes

Pull the codes. Check the plugs. Report back on those and that will tell a lot of the tale. Smell the oil too. Does it look OK and smell like oil rather than gas?

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Only code that came up was 15 (slow idle). The oil does smell fairly like gas. A compression test was done about a month ago before I bought it and everything came back fine, but I'll test it again myself. Unfortunately that cant happen today as I dont have a comrpession tester.

Looks like you're doing it right in regards to the timing. I adjust it by tapping the dist with a 1/2" drive wrench. Clockwise to retard, counter clockwise to advance. It is entirely possible that you're just out of the window on the high side.

Gas in the oil isn't good. Did the plugs look OK?

Your code 15 is most likely the SDS.

http://minimopar.net/fault/code15.html

I havent pulled the plugs yet. Most of my tools are burried right now so I probabaly wont get the chance to for a few days here still.

So it is entirely possible to be too advanced and be outside the window?

EDIT: Where is the bolt to loosen the distributor? I cant seem to find it.

EDIT2: I found the bolt. New problem though; I cant get a tool on it. Also, It turns out the distributor is already loose, so the timing being way out makes a lot more sense now (than someone setting it there). Any advice on how to get a tool on that bolt to tighten it back down once I get the timing readjusted?

Ok, so I figured out how I can tighten it down (with the engine off, I have just barely enough room to go between fan blades with a 1/2" wrench and just have to be careful not to burn myself). I set timing at 12 deg (BTDC?), turned off the car, tightened the distributor, and then reconfirmed it was still 12 deg once it warmed up again. This seems to have fixed my issue of having to pump pump the gas 10-15 times as it cranks to start. Seems to start real nicely now, but I still want to make sure I get this car to a good base line so I will check my fuel pressure, MAP, and coolant temp next.

EDIT: My timing is at 12 deg, but this is how my distributor is situated. I was told that the distributor drive (?) may be off by a tooth. Does it still look like thats the case with timing set right? I have no frame of refrence for how they normally face.

https://i.imgur.com/pcTCdHC.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eskamobob1

Ok, so I figured out how I can tighten it down (with the engine off, I have just barely enough room to go between fan blades with a 1/2" wrench and just have to be careful not to burn myself). I set timing at 12 deg (BTDC?), turned off the car, tightened the distributor, and then reconfirmed it was still 12 deg once it warmed up again. This seems to have fixed my issue of having to pump pump the gas 10-15 times as it cranks to start. Seems to start real nicely now, but I still want to make sure I get this car to a good base line so I will check my fuel pressure, MAP, and coolant temp next.

EDIT: My timing is at 12 deg, but this is how my distributor is situated. I was told that the distributor drive (?) may be off by a tooth. Does it still look like thats the case with timing set right? I have no frame of refrence for how they normally face.

https://i.imgur.com/pcTCdHC.jpg

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The timing can certainly be out of the window. That's not uncommon for me when I'm installing a new timing belt.

The 13mm bolt which holds down the dist can be tightened by a normal wrench if you can get in there, but I usually like a stubby wrench for the longer swing it provides.

Your intermediate shaft gear is definitely not "lined up right". However, that will have no bearing on your performance. AJ will rib you about the dist position, but that's the worst you'll see from it.

If you really want to confirm your cam timing, rotate the engine until the engine is at TDC. That will make the hash on the flywheel sit at the 0* mark in the timing window. On most flywheels there is a dimple in the hash for TDC, and not one for the hash which indicates BDC. You can check that easily enough with a screwdriver in the #1 spark plug hole. Anyway, when the crank is at TDC, use a mirror and a light to ensure that the two arrows on the cam sprocket are lined up with the seam in the cam cap and that the little hole in the cam sprocket is facing up. If that checks out, your cam timing is great.

http://minimopar.net/images/timing-cam-pg.gif

Image taken from the excellent Minimopar.net page about changing a timing belt.

http://minimopar.net/enginetiming.html

- - - Updated - - -

ETA: It sounds like a hack way to do things, but adjusting the ignition timing by knocking the flat on the dist with a 1/2" ratchet to rotate it is the way to go. You get very little movements which are predictable, and you don't burn yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cordes

The timing can certainly be out of the window. That's not uncommon for me when I'm installing a new timing belt.

The 13mm bolt which holds down the dist can be tightened by a normal wrench if you can get in there, but I usually like a stubby wrench for the longer swing it provides.

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I had just assumed this car used all imperial fasteners. Is it metric? Would be kinda nice considering all of my specialty wrenches and tools are metric. Also, good to know on the timing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cordes

Your intermediate shaft gear is definitely not "lined up right". However, that will have no bearing on your performance. AJ will rib you about the dist position, but that's the worst you'll see from it.

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Lol, fair. That will go way down the fix-it-list then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cordes

If you really want to confirm your cam timing, rotate the engine until the engine is at TDC. That will make the hash on the flywheel sit at the 0* mark in the timing window. On most flywheels there is a dimple in the hash for TDC, and not one for the hash which indicates BDC. You can check that easily enough with a screwdriver in the #1 spark plug hole. Anyway, when the crank is at TDC, use a mirror and a light to ensure that the two arrows on the cam sprocket are lined up with the seam in the cam cap and that the little hole in the cam sprocket is facing up. If that checks out, your cam timing is great.

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That was a far simpler way to see it explained than I have seen before. I'll do that when I check my pugs next week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cordes

ETA: It sounds like a hack way to do things, but adjusting the ignition timing by knocking the flat on the dist with a 1/2" ratchet to rotate it is the way to go. You get very little movements which are predictable, and you don't burn yourself.

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Lol. I used breaker car with a rubber handle and tapped the head of it with my little rubber mallet. Nice and easy to adjust 1 deg at a time once I figured out which way it needed to go.

Welcome!!

Kockeyed distributor can affect knock detection if #1 wire isn't in #1 position on dist cap.

The spark knock detection (pinging) system is critical if you're running into higher boost.

There are more dud T-M mechanics than there are dud T-M cars!!

Your'e in the right place for assistance.

Thanks
Randy

PS: Pumping the gas pedal does nothing to help starting.

If it's slow to start, cycle the key on/off a couple of times before starting.

This energizes the fuel pump for a second or 2 and builds pressure.

I do this on all my old timers without even thinking any more.

These cars are a combination of English and metric. Most everything is metric on them, but the body bolts that hold the brake lines, the brake line fittings, and some of the interior bolts are English. For 99% of the stuff you'll do on the car, you'll use metric stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GLHS60

Welcome!!

Kockeyed distributor can affect knock detection if #1 wire isn't in #1 position on dist cap.

The spark knock detection (pinging) system is critical if you're running into higher boost.

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I dont honestly understand what you mean by this. Will the car run with 2 spark plug wires switched? If not, how is the #1 wire in the wrong place?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GLHS60

There are more dud T-M mechanics than there are dud T-M cars!!

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Lol, yah. Lots of guys say they will do it, but I havent been able to find anyone at all that actualy has a decent amount of experience with these cars. If I'm being completely honest, I would still rather pay someone to work on this car (I just have no time recently), but that doesnt seem to be an option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GLHS60

PS: Pumping the gas pedal does nothing to help starting.

If it's slow to start, cycle the key on/off a couple of times before starting.

This energizes the fuel pump for a second or 2 and builds pressure.

I do this on all my old timers without even thinking any more.

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I tried cranking for 40s with the throttle closed, priming the pump with on/offs, and 40s of cranking with the throttle open (all things I have had to do on other cars that were tough to start). The only thing that let the car start was pumping the gas pedal (and that basically just let the car catch a stumble and take off).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cordes

These cars are a combination of English and metric. Most everything is metric on them, but the body bolts that hold the brake lines, the brake line fittings, and some of the interior bolts are English. For 99% of the stuff you'll do on the car, you'll use metric stuff.

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Good to know. If I had realized it was a 13mm I 100% have an offset wrench that would have fit....

Not 2 wires out of place but all wires moved, in order, one way or the other.

The caps normally have numbered terminals s # 1 wire in terminal #1 etc.

Let us know if your cap is numbered and #1 in #1 but don't change anything.

As my pal AJ correctly mentioned, your distributor isn't oriented properly.

The flat side should be parallel with the Engine.>-----------------------<

Someone no doubt haphazardly changed the timing belt in the past.

Most Engines wouldn't be a problem but with our Turbo Engines it matters.

Spark knock, or detonation is our sworn enemy, can crack a piston instantly.

Our ingenious knock system relies on specific orientation to function properly.

We have 4 cylinders but one knock sensor to monitor individual cylinders.

#3 is tends to detonate first, most scanners can show individual cyl knock.



We need 55 PSI of fuel pressure to start, less to idle-run more under boost.

Often we find proper fuel pressure bleeds off when the Engine is not running.

Some bleed off faster than others, some overnight, some an hour or minute.

For safety reasons, the pump doesn't activate unless the Engine is running.

Otherwise the fuel pump only works for a second when ignition is turned on.

Listen for the fuel pump to buzz when you turn the ignition on, then it stops.

Ignition on again, buzzzzz then stops.

It can take a few buzzs to prime the system to 55 PSI.

If you only get 1 or 2 buzzes then none, crank the Engine momentarily.

This activates another buzz cycle.

Pumping doesn't help but continual cranking can eventually build pressure.

A carb. car can require pumping before cranking but that's another story.

No point wearing out your battery/starter when there is a technique to learn.

Once you have pressure, holding the pedal down a tiny amount can help .

Shes not a fussy girl once you learn how to tickle her just right.

It can take some patience learning her ways, not just cash.

A new pump can often cure the pressure bleed down issue.

An otherwise good pump can have the bleed down issue.

Spending $$$ isn't the main cure in many cases.

One can spend plenty finding the rare, non dud, T-M mechanic.

Try not to do more than 1 thing at a time and evaluate.

Many have changed plugs, wires and cap, never to run again.

I've been running T-D's for 35 yrs, still learning and sharing.

I had a Lamborghini Silhouette when I bought my new 1986 Omni Turbo.

The Omni Turbo is still in my home shop garage!!

The Silhouette made me the down payment.

I've had more cars than I can remember.

The Omni is still my all time favorite.

Best of luck!!

Thanks
Randy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eskamobob1

I dont honestly understand what you mean by this. Will the car run with 2 spark plug wires switched? If not, how is the #1 wire in the wrong place?



Lol, yah. Lots of guys say they will do it, but I havent been able to find anyone at all that actualy has a decent amount of experience with these cars. If I'm being completely honest, I would still rather pay someone to work on this car (I just have no time recently), but that doesnt seem to be an option.



I tried cranking for 40s with the throttle closed, priming the pump with on/offs, and 40s of cranking with the throttle open (all things I have had to do on other cars that were tough to start). The only thing that let the car start was pumping the gas pedal (and that basically just let the car catch a stumble and take off).



Good to know. If I had realized it was a 13mm I 100% have an offset wrench that would have fit....

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Randy, the only thing I disagree with is the orientation of the intermediate shaft. It shouldn't effect anything but how far you have to rotate the distributor to set the timing properly. If it's out far enough, I think the dist can't rotate with the flat side toward the block, but other than that physical limitation, it should be fine.

As long as # 1 plug wire is in # 1 cap terminal everything will be OK.

It will look off but the knock system will still function properly.

Thanks
Randy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GLHS60

As long as # 1 plug wire is in # 1 cap terminal everything will be OK.

It will look off but the knock system will still function properly.

Thanks
Randy

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I agree 100%. Perhaps I was misunderstanding what you were saying earlier. Sorry if there was any confusion.

No problem old buddy!!!

I probably wasn't explaining it right.

I'm certainly not getting any younger, you??

Thanks
Randy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GLHS60

No problem old buddy!!!

I probably wasn't explaining it right.

I'm certainly not getting any younger, you??

Thanks
Randy

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I'm only young at heart.

Thank you for the clarification on that one guys. I was going to be shocked as hell if the intermediate shift position actual mattered (assuming it was corrected for at the distributor) for knock detection, but not like I exactly know enough about these engines to argue