Compressor map?

[shadow88]

Does anyone have a compressor map for a dead stock t2 garrett? I'm curious if I'm pushing too hard on this poor old thing. Thanks-jaim

[mw6886]

Eh, you should be able to do 20-22psi with out any problems.
Age is definitely a factor - only when maintenance is in question.

[cordes]

Eh, you should be able to do 20-22psi with out any problems.
Age is definitely a factor - only when maintenance is in question.


+1. I ran a T2 on my shadow at 22PSI for an entire summer before it gave up the ghost. It was mystery turbo to me, as the guy who sold the car to me got it off someone else, who pulled it from the yard....

If the turbo does not have an inordnant amount of shaft play, I would run it at 22PSI again. I am pretty happy with the use I got out of my 15+ year old, 3+ owner turbo.


ETA: Check out Frank's site. He has any comp map you could want on there.

[Mario]

http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/Fig3.gif

[Dave]

There we go. Now can someone please go on to tell us how to read one!!

[Frank]

Well what do you want to know? :D

[89DaytonaTII]

1. add a 0 to the numbers on the x axis for rough hp numbers.

2. [14.7 + (desired boost level)] divided by 14.7. To turn psi into a bar reading which will correlate to the y axis.

ex/ 14.7 + 20(psi) = 34.7 / 14.7 = 2.36 bar

then just imagine some lines on the graph to see where you end up.

So then here's a car making roughly 225hp running 20psi.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/boostedshelby/Fig3.gif

Simple enough

[Frank]

Well that is not nearly that accurate. Try my turbo calculator here: http://www.squirrelpf.com/site/index.php?page=Turbo+Sizing
Pretty accurate... I am currently working on a web based version.

Frank

[89DaytonaTII]

your right, but it's quick and gives you the right idea.

[altered7151]

Frank, I haven't dug too deep on your numbers yet, but what are your VE numbers based off of? Would it be safe to use that on a mildly ported top end?

[Frank]

Well the VE's arent that big of a deal. Unless you are using 60's heads, you will be safe with those number for any modern day car and even most cleaned up 8v TM cars. Whatever you assume between 80% to 92%, you should be good. Its leaps and bounds better then assuming 100%.


Frank

[shadow88]

Thanks for the inputs. I'm planning a new intake and tbi style exhaust manifold. The intake is nearly done in steel, it'll be made again in aluminum, tig welded up and installed. I'm figuring the edge of the 70% ring is still ok? Nothing to be worried about yet? I'm hoping to be in the 260hp 320 lb/ft range
Maybe more, maybe less, I have no idea. Should be well into the 13's this year. (God willing), thanks again.

[Dave]

So what you're saying is it's impossible to make 300hp off a Garrett, as that's off the chart?

I did my reading at 18psi, which gave me a bar reading of 2.22 at 300hp is clear off the chart, on top of that being OVER 153,000 RPMs, which is overspooling the turbo.

Of course the HP number on the compressor maps just show us how HARD we're working the turbo to produce those numbers, there are no variable as in timing, intercooler, or exhaust?

[GLHSKEN]

It's not an exact science. 'Tona TII's method is a breat way to get an idea without a calculator handy. I always read them that way for a rough estimate.

Are you really surprised at the stocker OFF the map at 300?? It's been bantied back and forth in the forums for years about just how much we overspin the stockers...

[Frank]

Dont get me wrong, you can go off the map.... its just the amount of heat produced into the air temp makes you wonder why people have issues and reliability problems.


Frank

[shadow88]

Ok Frank, thanks. Reliability has been my weak point for some time. Perhaps this new setup will produce more than 260 h.p. It may be time to look into a super 60 or hybrid turbo. Does anybody have maps for them?

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT30/GT3071R_700382_3.htm

this is for a gt3071r. This may be closer to what I'm after. Any ideas?

[Dave]

Ok Frank, thanks. Reliability has been my weak point for some time. Perhaps this new setup will produce more than 260 h.p. It may be time to look into a super 60 or hybrid turbo. Does anybody have maps for them?

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT30/GT3071R_700382_3.htm

this is for a gt3071r. This may be closer to what I'm after. Any ideas?
Wow that turbo looks about perfect for the majority of our setups... at 18psi pushing 300hp it's almost in the middle... whoooo.

[Dave]

Dont get me wrong, you can go off the map.... its just the amount of heat produced into the air temp makes you wonder why people have issues and reliability problems.


Frank

Frank I have a Mishimoto intercooler which are practically rated better than a Spearco, I know I wont worry THAT much about intake temps. But that's really overworking the turbo.

So with that said I know I should upgrade to something like a S60 (I checked out its map at Turbonetics), but I dont want to wait an hour for it to spool up. So that leads me to a T3/T4, but I dont have any maps on those, does anybody have any?? Im also looking for a map for a Mitsu.

[Frank]

If you have excel, then I have all the compressor maps you could ever want.
http://www.squirrelpf.com/site/index.php?page=Turbo+Sizing

A super60 spools very fast. A t3/t4 has more lag. What kind of power and what size motor and what kind of chassis. All of these makes a difference in the turbo lag...

As for the Mishimoto intercooler, you get what you pay for. I have seen no conclusive evidence on their cooling and efficency that Spearco and Treadstone and Precision Turbo have. Those brands have proven themselves in both cooling and good durable, reliable intercooler. The Mishimoto may have good properties, but they have not proven their reliability, etc.


Frank

[Dave]

Wait why would a Super 60 spool up faster? The only difference between a S60 and a Garrett is the exhaust housing... I THOUGHT they took the Garrett and slapped on a larger exhaust wheel and housing? Which in physics would make the compressor wheel spin at a slower speed including a slower boost response.

Again, I THOUGHT the T3/T4 is a hybrid, which meant they take a Garrett platform and install a larger compressor wheel and housing??

Also I'm sketchy on everything on your turbo calculator... can you PM me what exactly everything is?

[Mario]

Wait why would a Super 60 spool up faster? The only difference between a S60 and a Garrett is the exhaust housing... I THOUGHT they took the Garrett and slapped on a larger exhaust wheel and housing? Which in physics would make the compressor wheel spin at a slower speed including a slower boost response.

Again, I THOUGHT the T3/T4 is a hybrid, which meant they take a Garrett platform and install a larger compressor wheel and housing??

Also I'm sketchy on everything on your turbo calculator... can you PM me what exactly everything is?

I believe Frank was comparing the spool up of a Super 60 Turbo to a T04E/T03 Hybrid.

When you say Garrett, the brand, I'm assuming you mean the stock Garrett which came on the Turbo 2 engines, correct? That Turbo is a T03 Turbo. It has a .42 A/R compressor housing with a 50 trim wheel and a .48 A/R Turbine housing with a standard 48 mm turbine wheel or Stage 1 wheel.

The Super 60 Turbo is produced by Turbonetics (Maybe Garrett Makes one too). The Super 60 Turbo which Mopar originally sold, came with a .63 A/R Exhaust housing and a standard 48 mm turbine wheel or Stage 1 Wheel. The Compressor side was the same, except for the compressor housing is machined for the larger "Super 60" wheel.

A T3/T4 Hybrid is a turbo with either a T04E or T04B Compressor housing and wheel, mated to a T03 Turbine Housing and wheel.

[Dave]

Okay I thought the T3/T4 and Super 60s were all just modified T03 Chrysler Garretts.

Why would they add a larger turbine housing? That makes no sense, other than a harder pull up top, which I think would be good for a high revving engine, we only have 6k revs at most with the 8valves.

One last thing (sorry Im trying to learn the details of turbos themselves) what does the trim mean? I got the A/R housing, just the distance from the centerpoint of the wheel to the largest centerpoint of the housing, yah?

Okay thanks.

[cordes]

Wait why would a Super 60 spool up faster? The only difference between a S60 and a Garrett is the exhaust housing... I THOUGHT they took the Garrett and slapped on a larger exhaust wheel and housing? Which in physics would make the compressor wheel spin at a slower speed including a slower boost response.

Again, I THOUGHT the T3/T4 is a hybrid, which meant they take a Garrett platform and install a larger compressor wheel and housing??

Also I'm sketchy on everything on your turbo calculator... can you PM me what exactly everything is?

A S60 is going to spool faster due to the fact that it has a stage I turbine wheel, and a smaller compressor wheel. A well matched hybrid turbo would have a stage II or III turbine wheel which is larger, and it would have a larger T4 family compressor wheel.


ETA: mario beat me to it, but the trim is the compressor inducer dia devided by the exducer dia.

[glhs875]

My opinion is, if it is higher HP than starting at say 230 that your after, than a person needs to take the stock T3 turbo and hit a road sign with it! The stock Garrett has alot easier time of making torque in the midrange rpm level (2500 to around 4800rpm) than it has making HP on our engines. Trying to feed high HP with the stock turbo ends up with the HP to boost ratio taking a nose dive as boost levels are increased due to efficiency problems.

[Dave]

So would a Super 60 be good for around 300-325HP???

Also, how is it that the Super 60 spools up faster than a Garrett if the exhaust housing's AR is .15 larger than the T03's? I understand the compressor housing is machined for the larger wheel, but I dont see how it could physically spool up any quicker.

[cordes]

So would a Super 60 be good for around 300-325HP???

Also, how is it that the Super 60 spools up faster than a Garrett if the exhaust housing's AR is .15 larger than the T03's? I understand the compressor housing is machined for the larger wheel, but I dont see how it could physically spool up any quicker.


OK, just to clear up some of your misconceptions...

A T3/T4 hybrid, T3, S60, TII, and T4, are all Garrett turbos.

The S60 and TII are T3 family turbos, which are smaller than the T4 family.

When Frank mentioned earlier that a S60 would spool up faster he was implying that it would spool faster than a well thought out hybrid.

The S60 uses a stage I turbine wheel and has a smaller compressor wheel than a 50 trim T4 wheel for example. Thus, it will spool faster due to less rotational mass, and the smaller dia of the wheels than the T4 50 trim which would probably be mated to a stage II, or III turbine wheel.

[Frank]

That is indeed what I meant and its a little more to it then just that a smaller turbine. A larger compressor doesnt mean it will flow more down low. There are operational areas. Going with a larger compressor with the turbines identical typically means more lag... how much? Well dyno would be more specific. Typically you dont have to go that far because you have so many real life examples and people who understand turbos very well.


But to be more specific, yes the Super60 will get you that hp goal.


Frank

[Dave]

Alright, thanks guys... Im on the hunt for a Super 60 now... there's no way I'm using this Garrett, Ill probally end up snapping the shaft towards the end of the season anyways.

[Frank]

Your best bet is to get a Super60 from TU. They have awesome warrenties and plus you can get it with a 3" swingvalve... instant spool!


Frank

[8valves]

As for the Mishimoto intercooler, you get what you pay for. I have seen no conclusive evidence on their cooling and efficency that Spearco and Treadstone and Precision Turbo have. Those brands have proven themselves in both cooling and good durable, reliable intercooler. The Mishimoto may have good properties, but they have not proven their reliability, etc.


Frank


Thank you. I keep holding back from raining on people's parades that although they may be better than a stock cooler... the nice units are pricey for a reason.

Aaron Miller

[Dave]

When they can be mass-produced I think otherwise... hmm Im gonna be doing some testing and we will find out!

[Frank]

Is not Spearco and Treadstone mass produced? They are the best and most popular on the market. I am not saying, dont try it, but the argument is not acccurate.

[Dave]

Well look at the design physically... bar and plate, great welds on the tanks, good flowing end-tanks, and the core looks pretty solid and looks like it will cool and flow very well...

Just take a close look at it and it's nearly convincing that it's a good cooler. All Im saying is Im going to be hooking up some Temperature probes before and after the cooler, and also be taking a look at the boost readings at the turbo and at the manifold.

We shall see in 2 months.

[Dave]

What can you guys tell me about the stages in a wheel? Is it just how the compressor wheel is cut to flow more air?

Im looking at a S60 50 trim, with a .63 turbine, and a S3 wheel.

[Frank]

Thats exactly what it means. However a S60 is not a 50trim. I wouldnt go S3... S2 is prefered.


Frank

[Ondonti]

I dont think you can compare a mishomoto endtank to a good verticle treadstone intercooler endtank. .

[Dave]

I dont think you can compare a mishomoto endtank to a good verticle treadstone intercooler endtank. .

:blah: We'll see.

Anyways should I move on this turbo? It's only $400.

[Mario]

:blah: We'll see.

Anyways should I move on this turbo? It's only $400.

There's no such thing as a S60 50 Trim Turbo!!!!

[Dave]

There's no such thing as a S60 50 Trim Turbo!!!!

Geez, sorry woman! :eyebrows:

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110722

Looks like it's an enforcer 3 turbo, not a S60. My mistake. Still quit hatin' on my intercooler... it's pretty. :o