New custom cams!

[turbovanman²]

I am thinking of getting into new custom roller 8V cams, I will fully dyno these and will be fully tested before being sold. They will be new technology so they will be alot better than whats offered. I will probably only offer 2-3 cams as the cost to make these will cost me a bit and for the dyno time. Just need to know if anyone's interested so I can decide on this venture. Neon headed 2.5's might be in the future also. Cost will be close to the current offerings or a tad more due to the fact were using NEW blanks, this also means no more shims and you can run the PT lifters. I will probably need around 20-30 interested partys to break even. Time frame, this year sometime, as need to get the IC in and scrounge/save up money to buy the cams and test them.

Ok, done some more thinking so this is what I will consider unless you guys give me different feedback.

Type 1-stock lift and modified duration etc for stock type motors with stock heads, intakes and ex manifolds.

Type 2-modified engines, headers, ported heads etc

Type 3-all out racing with some street driving?

Thanks.

[cordes]

I am always interested in new items with dyno proven power gains.

[ShelGame]

If you make a cam with stock lift (rules to follow :) ), but better than the TBI cam for boost up to 18psi, I'd be interested. I'm basically stuck with the stock T1 cam or the TBI roller.

[turbovanman²]

If you make a cam with stock lift (rules to follow :) ), but better than the TBI cam for boost up to 18psi, I'd be interested. I'm basically stuck with the stock T1 cam or the TBI roller.


Hmmmmmmmm, interesting, so stock lift either turbo or TBI and duration, overlap, and the other stuff is up for grab?

[The S is Silent]

I'll take one. What would the disadvantage be of increasing lift a bit? I want something that takes full advantage of the menegon head and hybrid turbo.

[ShelGame]

Hmmmmmmmm, interesting, so stock lift either turbo or TBI and duration, overlap, and the other stuff is up for grab?

Yep. For NHRA/IHRA stock class, the cams must be stock lift (0.445" max lift, is what they use). But duration and overlap are open. They used to require stock duration, but they dropped that rule once they realized it was impossible (or at least cost-prohibitive) to police at trackside tech inpection.

[ShelGame]

I'll take one. What would the disadvantage be of increasing lift a bit? I want something that takes full advantage of the menegon head and hybrid turbo.

None - for you guys who only run on the street or bracket race. More lift is definitely better - especially if you have a ported head.

The disadvantage for me would be the ability to legally run in NHRA/IHRA class races. But then, I can't use a ported head either...

[8valves]

I'd like to see a bad-boy balls to the wall 8V cam. The S3 works well, but I'm sure someone could up the ante and have one with even better specs now. What to go with, that's not a question for me!

If you need a "lots of mods" car to test it on, well, I think I know of someone who could change one out real quick and let you know how it runs :thumb:

Aaron Miller

[powermaxx]

I'm looking for one right now! And I can test it at "High Altitude" for comparisons.:thumb:

[GLHSKEN]

I'd be in

[Garret]

I'd be interested in one for the Van, approximate cost? just a ballpark not a "This is what going to be set in stone"

[glhs875]

I'd be very interested, but unless a cam is done similar to the Taft S3 specs, maybe even a little more duration with lift over .500", BUT with a WIDER lobe separation angle in the 118deg to 120deg range to cut down on the overlap. If not than I'll probably keep using the S3 until I think something better has come along.

[turbovanman²]

I'd be interested in one for the Van, approximate cost? just a ballpark not a "This is what going to be set in stone"

Read much, lol! :p

They will be the same, slightly more or slightly less than the current offerings. Depends if I can get someone on board to help with costs. Chris at TU has offered dyno time so thats a start.


I have to add, this may take awhile as I am footing the bill out of my own pocket and money is VERY tight right now. And, it all depends on what kind of response I get here, don't want to invest alot of money to have 5 buyers.

[glhs875]

Read much, lol! :p

They will be the same, slightly more or slightly less than the current offerings. Depends if I can get someone on board to help with costs. Chris at TU has offered dyno time so thats a start.


I have to add, this may take awhile as I am footing the bill out of my own pocket and money is VERY tight right now. And, it all depends on what kind of response I get here, don't want to invest alot of money to have 5 buyers.

I would consider donating some. If I could at be let in on the info from the different grinds to see what's actually going on from the datalogs. And maybe get a little break in the price on a finished product. Done right, I think that could be very educational, and rewarding. I have been playing with different cam grinds on these cars since 1986, and have learned alot, but still I'm always open for new ideas.

[turbovanman²]

I would consider donating some. If I could at be let in on the info from the different grinds to see what's actually going on from the datalogs. And maybe get a little break in the price on a finished product. Done right, I think that could be very educational, and rewarding. I have been playing with different cam grinds on these cars since 1986, and have learned alot, but still I'm always open for new ideas.


Ok, I will keep all of this in mind, thanks guys, starting to look promising, :thumb:

[Austrian Dodge]

I'd be in! at least one of the european-connection has to have a freaking ride LOL

[Frank]

Sounds like there needs to be a few options for cams.... all of them being highpro.

A 2.2L and a 2.5L cam with set durations and lobe seperations. The variences will come into lift height based on normal lifters and lift, pt cruiser lifters with normal lift... probably the same as normal lifters with extra lift, then pt cruiser lifters with extra lift.


Frank

[glhs875]

Sounds like there needs to be a few options for cams.... all of them being highpro.

A 2.2L and a 2.5L cam with set durations and lobe seperations. The variences will come into lift height based on normal lifters and lift, pt cruiser lifters with normal lift... probably the same as normal lifters with extra lift, then pt cruiser lifters with extra lift.


Frank

That's definitely something to look at. But eventually Iam going with the fully adj. solid lifters that are avail for the PT., Neon, etc. But I will be using them on an 8V to start with.

[Frank]

Just becareful... use them on a crappy head. There have been reports of cracking the journals that hold the lifter on our 8v.


Frank

[glhs875]

Just becareful... use them on a crappy head. There have been reports of cracking the journals that hold the lifter on our 8v.


Frank

I'll keep that in mind! Thanks!

[Murphy]

I am interestedin a stage 2 cam..my 88TBI should last me awhile

looks like there is goin to be enough interest for this!

[John B]

Is it possible to have more than stock lift with those cam blanks? I'm wanting more lift without a lot of duration.

[John B]

A roller with the Super 60 specs would be great! Especially if we could find rockers with wider rollers that could be adapted.

[Frank]

I would think the turbo buick specs on their cams would be more ideal.


Frank

[turbovanman²]

A roller with the Super 60 specs would be great! Especially if we could find rockers with wider rollers that could be adapted.

Thats the Taft S2, :thumb:

I will look at all options posted, keep them coming, :amen:

[burnfaster]

How about something for a heavy car (89 TC) , 330-350 hp-ish , 4000 stall A-413 w/a 3.02 FD ? Daily driver too ... I'm about $600 into cams I don't like and just put the stock roller back in , so what the hell ? :thumb: Do you take low mileage slider trade-ins ? :D

[My96z]

Yea a grind for heavy cars like our vans! Hell how about a "Van grind" lol

It would be cool if we get people interested to donate like $20 each to the cost, and like was mentioned earlier, we would be completly informed of testing, and get a discount on the final product. If we got $20 from say 30 people, that would help big time with your R&D costs. I wouldnt mind chipping in.


Jeff

[Garret]

2x for me

[GLHSKEN]

^^^ +1...

I want a "big" lift cam... With the recent addition to the fleet.. My first GLHS will become a primarilly strip/street car..

[8valves]

^^^ +1...

I want a "big" lift cam... With the recent addition to the fleet.. My first GLHS will become a primarilly strip/street car..

Hehehe, I see where this is going. :D

Aaron Miller

[turbovanman²]

^^^ +1...

I want a "big" lift cam... With the recent addition to the fleet.. My first GLHS will become a primarilly strip/street car..

Hmmmmmmmm, no big lift cams for you, :eyebrows:

Ok, so guess so far, looking at a stock type cam and a big as-s cam, :amen:

Trust me guys, I will get a heavy van/car cam, hence one reason I am looking into this, hint, hint, hehehehe :thumb:

[GLHSKEN]

Hehehe, I see where this is going. :D

Aaron Miller

HEHEHE... top end bro. Have menegon head will travel...

[8valves]

HEHEHE... top end bro. Have menegon head will travel...

You wait till you see how my new head does, I'm hoping it sturs the pot a little bit with common porting techniques.

But yes, a high duration, high lift, but with milder overlap type combo. Basically (for anyone out there who considers themselves a cam specs guru) something that is nearly all out race... for those of us that drive our all out race cars every day. :o

Aaron Miller

[mech1nxh]

Hmmmmmmmm, no big lift cams for you, :eyebrows:

Ok, so guess so far, looking at a stock type cam and a big as-s cam, :amen:

Trust me guys, I will get a heavy van/car cam, hence one reason I am looking into this, hint, hint, hehehehe :thumb:

I would be very interested in 16v cams, please keep me abreast of those plans,
THANK YOU

[87glhs232]

I'd be in for a type 2. Though if possible I would like to know what you settle on for lift, duration and separation before hand. :thumb:
If you can give me those #'s and I like them, I'll pay up front...even if a have to wait the rest of the year.

[8valves]

I would be very interested in 16v cams, please keep me abreast of those plans,
THANK YOU

16V cams should already be readily available. There should be lots of companies out there with turbo acceptable grinds for neon headed motors. I could be wrong though I guess.

Aaron Miller

[turbovanman²]

16V cams should already be readily available. There should be lots of companies out there with turbo acceptable grinds for neon headed motors. I could be wrong though I guess.

Aaron Miller


I don't think theres any Hybrid cams available yet. I was going to do a Neon head on my 2.5L but I just found a sh#t load of TIII parts for mega cheap so I am going TIII now. I also found a buyer for my 8V stuff, hehehe. Don't worry, cams will be sorted out before I go 16 valve, :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

I am currently shopping for a new cam.

[John B]

Thats the Taft S2

Yeah, sort of but the S-2 doesn't have the .499" lift, probably because there wasn't enough meat for it on a regrind. If the timing could be duplicated on a new blank I think we'd have something.

[John B]

Trust me guys, I will get a heavy van/car cam, hence one reason I am looking into this, hint, hint, hehehehe :thumb:
Count me in! My 'vert is probably nearly as heavy as your van.:o

[John B]

I would think the turbo buick specs on their cams would be more ideal.


Frank Does the Buick have tiny exhaust valves too?

[mech1nxh]

16V cams should already be readily available. There should be lots of companies out there with turbo acceptable grinds for neon headed motors. I could be wrong though I guess.

Aaron Miller

you are correct, I have researched a few, but they are not suited for the
project I am building.....and more importantly, they are not Simons!!!
(shameless plug...LOL)

[glhs875]

The diameter of the valves determines what max lift should be. And it takes around 270deg. total duration (218deg to 224deg @ .050 lift) for an engine to be able to achieve its maximum torque potential, with any more duration after that point not making any more torque, but with the power range shifting to the right.

[John B]

The diameter of the valves determines what max lift should be. And it takes around 270deg. total duration (218deg to 224deg @ .050 lift) for an engine to be able to achieve its maximum torque potential, with any more duration after that point not making any more torque, but with the power range shifting to the right. That's one of the most interesting bits of info I've read yet! Where did you learn that? What should the max lift of a 39mm valve be?

[Garret]

HKS turbo cams are 272 degrees ;)

[Frank]

That's one of the most interesting bits of info I've read yet! Where did you learn that? What should the max lift of a 39mm valve be?

0.38" of lift. That is how much surface area of opening between the seat and the valve is required for it to match the surface area of the port/valve.


Frank

[John B]

OK, so obviously I'm wondering why the stock cam is .430" and why flow bench readings keep increasing with additional lift up to .500" and beyond. What am I failing to comprehend here? It must be that the total area is not the only determinant and that the lift has to be greater than the supposed ideal because the flow has to make a sharp bend getting around the valve and into the chamber. Also a third or half of the valve is shrouded by the chamber wall. A lift of .500" seems to be good for our valves, but a cam grind with that much lift is hard to achieve without more duration than I would like. We really need wider rollers so that we can have faster open and closing rates. I wonder if it would be useful to contact the manufacturers of our rockers to see if they would do a limited run of wider roller rockers? Dreams, dreams...

[Frank]

You have a good point John. However there is lot more too it. Flow number may go up with higher lift, however this is where dyno testing is needed. Too high of lift could have adverse effects on chamber mixing, etc.


Frank

[glhs875]

0.38" of lift. That is how much surface area of opening between the seat and the valve is required for it to match the surface area of the port/valve.


Frank

Well at .38" of lift, a 39mm or 1.54" valve by theory you would need .584" lift for max flow. The info I have found is .25". That would make a 39mm valve need .384" lift in a perfect world. And yes valve shrounding does effect flow and change this theory. So I agree, it is best to flow test a head to find the max flow at whatever lift, and then choose a cam based on those findings.

[glhs875]

That's one of the most interesting bits of info I've read yet! Where did you learn that? What should the max lift of a 39mm valve be?

I've always read about, researched on, and done testing myself with camshafts. Iam fascinated with the valve train in general. Beacause in my opinion, along with the cyl. head, the valvetrain is among the biggest limiting factors towards high HP>

[GLHS0658]

Simon, Do you have a cam grinder/machine shop that you are using?
If not, Frank and I know one.

Mike

[turbovanman²]

Simon, Do you have a cam grinder/machine shop that you are using?
If not, Frank and I know one.

Mike

Yes, I have access, thats why I am doing this, otherwise, I couldn't, lol! :thumb:

[85glht]

Count me in for the hi-perf. one. :thumb:

[Austrian Dodge]

nearly all out race cam for a heavy car! :eyebrows:

[mrboost]

Hey Simon,

Not sure what you and Chris talked about, but for the 2.5L race cam, I have a good test vehicle and a couple other cams I could test and compare to, to dial yours in so you know you have a power advantage. I'd test them on the dyno and bring the A/F and as many other factors as I can to the same so that we'd know the cam was making the power, and give you info on how much and in what range it's performing in. I'm not afraid to let my 2.5L rip, so if you can come up with something that works, I'll beat the snot out of my car to prove it for ya!!


Read much, lol! :p

They will be the same, slightly more or slightly less than the current offerings. Depends if I can get someone on board to help with costs. Chris at TU has offered dyno time so thats a start.


I have to add, this may take awhile as I am footing the bill out of my own pocket and money is VERY tight right now. And, it all depends on what kind of response I get here, don't want to invest alot of money to have 5 buyers.

[turbovanman²]

No problem Paul, I can do my own testing and send you it after I am done for comparisons. Just skittish right now after seeing that thread on TD about copying and SMP's reason for not coming out with cams. This may come off as a threat but If I do make these and I find anyone who has copied them, I will track them down. I honestly hope that doesn't happen as no one has copied the TAFT cams and they have been out for years. :thumb:

[8valves]

Hey Simon,

Not sure what you and Chris talked about, but for the 2.5L race cam, I have a good test vehicle and a couple other cams I could test and compare to, to dial yours in so you know you have a power advantage. I'd test them on the dyno and bring the A/F and as many other factors as I can to the same so that we'd know the cam was making the power, and give you info on how much and in what range it's performing in. I'm not afraid to let my 2.5L rip, so if you can come up with something that works, I'll beat the snot out of my car to prove it for ya!!

And I've got the 2.2 side covered, and we're both local to each other! Plus, Paul needs me around to attract the younger crowd of gals our way at the "after the dyno parT" that we didn't get to do last time. :thumb:

Aaron Miller

[cordes]

And I've got the 2.2 side covered, and we're both local to each other! Plus, Paul needs me around to attract the younger crowd of gals our way at the "after the dyno parT" that we didn't get to do last time. :thumb:

Aaron Miller

I would like to invite myself to this dyno flogging session, that I might look on in awe.:thumb:

[mrboost]

I understand about being skittish, but at least with cams it's a little more difficult to copy.

I don't know what you have intended, but if you were going to have a few different prototype grinds before a final product, I was thinking it would be benificial to have me test them (and I'm speaking only of the 2.5L race cam) so that not only would you have the dyno numbers, but the calibrations would be dialed to achieve the same A/F ratio for all cams tested and the one moving the most air would come out in the wash for sure telling you which is better to go forward with, and giving the closest HP comparisons between cams, because fuel mixture wouldn't be skewing the results, boost would of course be held constant, and all cams would be tested straight up.


Of course, if you don't want to have me test them then no hard feelings at all, I was jumping on this because I was going to run some cam testing for my car this spring just to see which is the best out of what I have (same car, same day, same boost) and it would be cool to have a new player in the arena!


No problem Paul, I can do my own testing and send you it after I am done for comparisons. Just skittish right now after seeing that thread on TD about copying and SMP's reason for not coming out with cams. This may come off as a threat but If I do make these and I find anyone who has copied them, I will track them down. I honestly hope that doesn't happen as no one has copied the TAFT cams and they have been out for years. :thumb:

[Frank]

I think Paul has an invaluable offer. Gives definitive results. If you need some backing for immediate pursuing, I could possibly help out.


Frank

[turbovanman²]

I think Paul has an invaluable offer. Gives definitive results. If you need some backing for immediate pursuing, I could possibly help out.


Frank

Thanks Frank, let me talk it over with the cam dude and see what he wants up front, I talked briefly with him and he's crunching some numbers. I was going to borrow some money from my gf.

I will glady take Paul's offer, I already said yes, lol! :D

But I also want to test them on my van aswell, as I drive it everyday.

[Frank]

Cool. Some cam profiles could have adverse effects on idling unless they are accounted for.


Frank

[turboaddict]

id like something like type 2 increased lift good idle and flexibility to run 14psi on the street and 22 on the track.

[Putter]

A cam that doesn't sacrafice the torque peak in a quest for more HP, something in the 3600rpm on up area.

[8valves]

Cool. Some cam profiles could have adverse effects on idling unless they are accounted for.


Frank

Oh come on now, half the fun of having a cam is the intimidation factor! Seriously though, I love nearly nothing more than a lumpy idle. I actually get dissapointed when people come up with ways of covering up cams bad idle attributes... just so long as it doesn't stall I'm happy!

PS- about the peak torque deal just as an FYI- even on the S3 cam my peak torque comes in at 4300 rpms, and I don't have full boost until 4100.

Aaron Miller

[John B]

Paul needs me around to attract the younger crowd of gals our way at the "after the dyno parT" that we didn't get to do last time. :thumb:

Aaron Miller Woaah! There's more to this TD thing than I realized! How come all I get is busted knuckles and oil puddles?:p

[mrboost]

OK then, next cal you get, all the cam compensation at idle will be gone!!! Muhahah!!!!!:lol:


Oh come on now, half the fun of having a cam is the intimidation factor! Seriously though, I love nearly nothing more than a lumpy idle. I actually get dissapointed when people come up with ways of covering up cams bad idle attributes... just so long as it doesn't stall I'm happy!

PS- about the peak torque deal just as an FYI- even on the S3 cam my peak torque comes in at 4300 rpms, and I don't have full boost until 4100.

Aaron Miller

[Mr overkill]

Im in for a cam

[shelbyluvv]

gotta watch the vacume with custom grinds. I have seen some MP cams only give like 12-14 pounds of vac at idle. again this is where the dyno tuning will help

[crazy1eye]

I too am in.

I've tried the S2, '88tbi, S60 & the '89 turbo. Now I want to try the S3, anyone have one for sale?

@ 21psi & pump gas, the S2 gave the most horsepower & the S60 the most torque & the others were close enough to ? the $ spent on S2 & S60.

[John B]

I need an S-1 but with .500" lift.:thumb:

[sdac guy]

It's tough to get a 4 cyl to really idle so that it is impressive (to a bystander). However 2 examples come to mind.

First, when I had the "314" MP turbo cam in my Omni (long before S60 was brought out) the whole car shook at idle. That was impressive when behind the wheel (or leaning on the car), but it didn't sound rough at all listening to it. That cam didn't come on at all until about 3400 rpm and I only had 8" of vacuum at idle. At the time we still had idle emissions testing in Michigan and I had to go back to the stock cam in order to pass emissions (low vac at idle = very rich = mucho unburned hydrocarbons).

Then there is Joe Lococo's 87 GLHS. It has an Ed Peters built bored 2.5 which comes out to about 2.7L. It runs stock S60 cal and has an idle that anyone that passes the car does a double take when they hear it. The cam lope sounds like a blown big V8, but only on a smaller scale. Idle slow, and pull up, slow, pull up, slow, pull up ... It is by far the meanest sounding 4 cylinder at idle I have ever heard. And out of the 13 SDAC conventions I've been to, that is the only car I've ever heard idle like that. VERY impressive, but it was not something planned. Ed Peters said at the time that it was just the reaction of the S60 cal to the large displacement. But it sure sounded cool. :thumb:

Barry

[8valves]

It's tough to get a 4 cyl to really idle so that it is impressive (to a bystander). However 2 examples come to mind.

First, when I had the "314" MP turbo cam in my Omni (long before S60 was brought out) the whole car shook at idle. That was impressive when behind the wheel (or leaning on the car), but it didn't sound rough at all listening to it. That cam didn't come on at all until about 3400 rpm and I only had 8" of vacuum at idle. At the time we still had idle emissions testing in Michigan and I had to go back to the stock cam in order to pass emissions (low vac at idle = very rich = mucho unburned hydrocarbons).

Then there is Joe Lococo's 87 GLHS. It has an Ed Peters built bored 2.5 which comes out to about 2.7L. It runs stock S60 cal and has an idle that anyone that passes the car does a double take when they hear it. The cam lope sounds like a blown big V8, but only on a smaller scale. Idle slow, and pull up, slow, pull up, slow, pull up ... It is by far the meanest sounding 4 cylinder at idle I have ever heard. And out of the 13 SDAC conventions I've been to, that is the only car I've ever heard idle like that. VERY impressive, but it was not something planned. Ed Peters said at the time that it was just the reaction of the S60 cal to the large displacement. But it sure sounded cool. :thumb:

Barry

I'll have to get you some video clips of our Talon or our friend PJ's Eclipse, they both have quite the idle characteristicts. We have to idle the Talon at 1100 rpms to keep it going and get 12" of vacuum. You can hear the pulsations in the exhaust note until it gets up to about 3500 rpms when it finally starts to clear up. :D

Aaron Miller

EDIT: Better yet, I'll just get him to come to an SDAC meeting, since I've been a member for over a year and still never been in town to be at a meeting!

ALSO: With the TAFT S3 and Paul's compensation idle tuning I get on average 12-13" of vacuum at idle. Then again, I have no ill effects from this either.

[turbovanman²]

Tried the S1 last night, going try the S2 and S3 soon for comparisons.

[8valves]

I'll go ahead and guess that you're going to hate the S3 in your van. It will be an absolute dog due to the severe loss of sub-3500 rpm power.

Aaron Miller

[turbovanman²]

I'll go ahead and guess that you're going to hate the S3 in your van. It will be an absolute dog due to the severe loss of sub-3500 rpm power.

Aaron Miller

Guess we'll find out, :thumb:

[glhs875]

I'll go ahead and guess that you're going to hate the S3 in your van. It will be an absolute dog due to the severe loss of sub-3500 rpm power.

Aaron Miller

He said in another thread that the S1 was dying at 5000rpm. He also said that he was running the stock cam with the RP adj. sprocket at full advance, and had the S1 straight up. If he has the same RP sprocket I have, it has a + or - 12 deg range. For a stock cam to perform at the +12 deg setting, I'm thinking the stock cam must of been retarded a tooth on the belt, then with 12 deg advance from the pulley, would make the cam actually 3 deg retarded.

[8valves]

He said in another thread that the S1 was dying at 5000rpm. He also said that he was running the stock cam with the RP adj. sprocket at full advance, and had the S1 straight up. If he has the same RP sprocket I have, it has a + or - 12 deg range. For a stock cam to perform at the +12 deg setting, I'm thinking the stock cam must of been retarded a tooth on the belt, then with 12 deg advance from the pulley, would make the cam actually 3 deg retarded.

That makes sense, but I think Simon would've caught on/checked his cam timing back when he was having these spool issues.

A cool trick that I just learned from Paul V of TU, although everyone else might know this already... use a timing light and when timing is set go to the cam sprocket and hit the light on it... the markings of the adjustable sprocket should be right in place (how you would set your cam timing normally) as the light hits off of the #1 wire.

I just learned this, not sure if everyone else has known this for a long time though. :o

I know that on my S60 or S2 cam that it would start to fall off seat of the pants after getting anywhere above 5* advanced. I keep the S3 at 5& adv, but you say yours seems to like it retarded, Kevin likes his at 7* adv.... I wonder if someone actually degreed one in at centerline how it would do!

Aaron Miller

[sdac guy]

The same technique can be used on a stock sprocket to check if the cam is installed a tooth off. Set timing to 0 degrees either by turning distributor, or if your timing light is the kind that allows that adjustment, then shoot the light into the hole in the cam belt cover. If the cam is installed correctly, and the timing is set to 0, then the top hole in the cam sprocket should be centered in the hole in the cam belt cover. If it is off to one side of the hole, then it the cam is installed a tooth off.

Barry

[turbovanman²]

Hahahaha, I posted that technique last year or 2004, :eyebrows:

I have an adjustable timing light so it was easy to figure out.

My stocker was installed straightup then ADVANCED, NOT RETARDED to get my turbo to spool. Could be the stock grind is off??????

[8valves]

Hahahaha, I posted that technique last year or 2004, :eyebrows:

I have an adjustable timing light so it was easy to figure out.

My stocker was installed straightup then ADVANCED, NOT RETARDED to get my turbo to spool. Could be the stock grind is off??????

Okay okay, so I learned an old trick like I thought! Haha. Good technique none the less.

I would doubt that the stock grind is a magical "off" cam. The whole advanced thing does durprise me, but it could be that it increases EGTs to help it spool. Beyond that as well, what do you consider "couldn't get it to spool?" A 2.5 w/ a stgIII turbine shouldn't really be all that laggy. Here's the kicker to your intercooler fiasco... does it spool better now with no IC on it? And is it a drastic difference? Where is your base ignition set at? If I put my base timing down at like 7* (don't ask, complicated situation!) then my previous full boost at 4100 and pull like crazy turbo turned into full boost at 3000 rpms and go absolutely nowhere!

This is getting away from the original topic I guess, but anywho.

Aaron Miller

[glhs875]

I know that on my S60 or S2 cam that it would start to fall off seat of the pants after getting anywhere above 5* advanced. I keep the S3 at 5& adv, but you say yours seems to like it retarded, Kevin likes his at 7* adv.... I wonder if someone actually degreed one in at centerline how it would do!

Aaron Miller[/QUOTE]

I think Kevin ran his @ 5 deg advance as well. I tried both 2 & 4 deg advanced, straight up, and both 2 & 4 deg retarded. I left it at 4 deg retarded. On thing on my combo is once my boost hits, the engine goes to 5000rpm and stays there, until enough speed is made to make the R's rise some more. But even @ 4 deg retarded, I can start off in 2nd gear (MVB) in the auto trans. w/ 2.78 final drive, and still immediately blow the tires away, with as little as a few psi of boost built up.

[turbovanman²]

Okay okay, so I learned an old trick like I thought! Haha. Good technique none the less.

I would doubt that the stock grind is a magical "off" cam. The whole advanced thing does durprise me, but it could be that it increases EGTs to help it spool. Beyond that as well, what do you consider "couldn't get it to spool?" A 2.5 w/ a stgIII turbine shouldn't really be all that laggy. Here's the kicker to your intercooler fiasco... does it spool better now with no IC on it? And is it a drastic difference? Where is your base ignition set at? If I put my base timing down at like 7* (don't ask, complicated situation!) then my previous full boost at 4100 and pull like crazy turbo turned into full boost at 3000 rpms and go absolutely nowhere!

This is getting away from the original topic I guess, but anywho.

Aaron Miller

Well, hmmmmmmmm. My base was at 12 but now its at 10 as it pings a bit on 89. Laggy is in around town, was an absolute dog, it was awful and not fun to drive. With it advanced, its awesome, its a hoot around town. Going to play with the S1 tonight.

As for the intercooler, to hard to bypass it so haven't. Should be putting my larger one in soon, probably the next 2-3 weeks.

[8valves]

I know that on my S60 or S2 cam that it would start to fall off seat of the pants after getting anywhere above 5* advanced. I keep the S3 at 5& adv, but you say yours seems to like it retarded, Kevin likes his at 7* adv.... I wonder if someone actually degreed one in at centerline how it would do!

Aaron Miller


I think Kevin ran his @ 5 deg advance as well. I tried both 2 & 4 deg advanced, straight up, and both 2 & 4 deg retarded. I left it at 4 deg retarded. On thing on my combo is once my boost hits, the engine goes to 5000rpm and stays there, until enough speed is made to make the R's rise some more. But even @ 4 deg retarded, I can start off in 2nd gear (MVB) in the auto trans. w/ 2.78 final drive, and still immediately blow the tires away, with as little as a few psi of boost built up.


Damn you guys and your convertors with their torque multiplication capabilities! For those of us that still rowe our own gears, ahem, with a clutch that is, I liked the top end pull far more than concerning myself with any low end losses. However, to do a good hard burnout I need to tach up to at least 3500 and let her rip... any lower and it just bogs down, and this is on street tires.

Aaron Miller

[8valves]

Well, hmmmmmmmm. My base was at 12 but now its at 10 as it pings a bit on 89. Laggy is in around town, was an absolute dog, it was awful and not fun to drive. With it advanced, its awesome, its a hoot around town. Going to play with the S1 tonight.

As for the intercooler, to hard to bypass it so haven't. Should be putting my larger one in soon, probably the next 2-3 weeks.

To act on the base timing deal even more so, I run my base around 13* w/ Paul's cal. I might even have had it at 14, I can't remember. I wanted it to be a bit more agressive initial. With his cal right now timing is quite conservative up top due to such high boost levels on pump.

Aaron Miller

[glhs875]

Damn you guys and your convertors with their torque multiplication capabilities! For those of us that still rowe our own gears, ahem, with a clutch that is, I liked the top end pull far more than concerning myself with any low end losses. However, to do a good hard burnout I need to tach up to at least 3500 and let her rip... any lower and it just bogs down, and this is on street tires.

Aaron Miller

I keep trying to tell everyone an auto can be WAY better than a manual trans., at least a stock type of manual. With an auto you can go bigger with everything, cam, turbo, etc. and still be streetable. And after I broke (3) 555's, the last one with a twisted off input shaft, I told myself I was done with manuals. Iam on my 4th year with the same auto trans, with no problems at all.

[8valves]

I keep trying to tell everyone an auto can be WAY better than a manual trans., at least a stock type of manual. With an auto you can go bigger with everything, cam, turbo, etc. and still be streetable. And after I broke (3) 555's, the last one with a twisted off input shaft, I told myself I was done with manuals. Iam on my 4th year with the same auto trans, with no problems at all.

Which is great, but I do highway racing more than anything else, and an auto just doesn't cut it in that arena.

Aaron Miller

[glhs875]

Which is great, but I do highway racing more than anything else, and an auto just doesn't cut it in that arena.

Aaron Miller

Yea, right now with the stock cal's 6650rpm cut out, I can only do a little over 140mph.

[Directconnection]

Just becareful... use them on a crappy head. There have been reports of cracking the journals that hold the lifter on our 8v.


Frank

Solid lifters is the approach I would take as well for a cam that will benefit the higher rpms. Cracking bores in the head? I haven't heard that before, but thinking about it, it would happen if the lash wasn't correctly adjusted.

Not sure if you know JS Frank, but Ken will back me up on this. HE is VERY knowledgable and knows alot about an engine. TDer as well and into GNs. Adopted a GN profile to work for his 8v setup. Maybe Ken could hook you up with him, Simon, so you are on the right track with this.

A cam profile is waaay more in depth than just lift, duration, lobe seperation and overlap that we all know. It is the heart of the internal combustion engine. It is the timing events and ramp profile that done correctly, will greatly increase the scavenging effects. So many things that happen with a cam profile that all have to intertwine perfectly for optimum performance. I have read engineering books on this and even though I start to get over my head after 40 pages, the factual data is awesome and makes total sense.

In my opinion, we as turbomoparists have denied ourselves a good amount of performance via the use of the stock cams (which are very good).

[glhs875]

Solid lifters is the approach I would take as well for a cam that will benefit the higher rpms. Cracking bores in the head? I haven't heard that before, but thinking about it, it would happen if the lash wasn't correctly adjusted.

Not sure if you know JS Frank, but Ken will back me up on this. HE is VERY knowledgable and knows alot about an engine. TDer as well and into GNs. Adopted a GN profile to work for his 8v setup. Maybe Ken could hook you up with him, Simon, so you are on the right track with this.

A cam profile is waaay more in depth than just lift, duration, lobe seperation and overlap that we all know. It is the heart of the internal combustion engine. It is the timing events and ramp profile that done correctly, will greatly increase the scavenging effects. So many things that happen with a cam profile that all have to intertwine perfectly for optimum performance. I have read engineering books on this and even though I start to get over my head after 40 pages, the factual data is awesome and makes total sense.

In my opinion, we as turbomoparists have denied ourselves a good amount of performance via the use of the stock cams (which are very good).


Well said, and I agree. Camshafts are the brains of the engine, and are complicated not unlike our own.

[Directconnection]

You have a good point John. However there is lot more too it. Flow number may go up with higher lift, however this is where dyno testing is needed. Too high of lift could have adverse effects on chamber mixing, etc.


Frank

High lift is not really that bad actually. It's not the .600" lift part of the lobe (nose)that really does much, it's the area under it. The valve spends alot more time at .430 lift now per crank rev with a .600 lift cam, than say a .500 lift cam. Don't take this into total consideration, I'm just quickly shooting from the hip.

[turbovanman²]

Solid lifters is the approach I would take as well for a cam that will benefit the higher rpms. Cracking bores in the head? I haven't heard that before, but thinking about it, it would happen if the lash wasn't correctly adjusted.

Not sure if you know JS Frank, but Ken will back me up on this. HE is VERY knowledgable and knows alot about an engine. TDer as well and into GNs. Adopted a GN profile to work for his 8v setup. Maybe Ken could hook you up with him, Simon, so you are on the right track with this.

A cam profile is waaay more in depth than just lift, duration, lobe seperation and overlap that we all know. It is the heart of the internal combustion engine. It is the timing events and ramp profile that done correctly, will greatly increase the scavenging effects. So many things that happen with a cam profile that all have to intertwine perfectly for optimum performance. I have read engineering books on this and even though I start to get over my head after 40 pages, the factual data is awesome and makes total sense.

In my opinion, we as turbomoparists have denied ourselves a good amount of performance via the use of the stock cams (which are very good).

Thanks, doesn't make me nervous, as much, ;) lol!

[Frank]

High lift is not really that bad actually. It's not the .600" lift part of the lobe (nose)that really does much, it's the area under it. The valve spends alot more time at .430 lift now per crank rev with a .600 lift cam, than say a .500 lift cam. Don't take this into total consideration, I'm just quickly shooting from the hip.

Yep and thinking from the hip is sometimes better then thinking about it for a long time like I did. You are right.

[Directconnection]

With an auto you can go bigger with everything, cam, turbo, etc. and still be streetable.

Maybe an auto for a test best isn't the best scenario... especially if Simon is having issues with his van as well?

I can guarantee the RP cam gears are correct, not just because I was the one who made these (along with a friend), but, because if you knew the process involved it would be obvious. :thumb:

The earliest ones I made, there was a 2-1/2 degree difference because I used the 557 (turbo and 2.2 n/a) and 069 (2.5 n/a) cores. I checked them and saw 2-1/2 degrees difference between the two. So, depending on which core I used, straight up on the 069 could mean you were 2-1/2 degrees out (advanced I believe...) and the 557 was dead on. So, from those early ones on, I made 2 fixtures for the cores that indexed the 069 2-1/2 degrees to be dead on with the 557. 40 teeth in the gear. 1 tooth = 9 degrees. 9+3 =12 degrees which could possibly mean that Simon's cam timing is one tooth off. Simon...I know you've done sohc cam timing many times, but in the process, do you line up the flywheel's mark to the 0-degree mark in the bellhousing to ensure that #1 is at TDC and the distributor drive gear is parrallel? This makes cam timing much easier for me. Doing the old straight edge technique between gears makes things much harder to get right.

[Directconnection]

Yep and thinking from the hip is sometimes better then thinking about it for a long time like I did. You are right.


Frank, you never talked to me in person before, right?

I am always talking w/out thinking first. Has gotten me into alot of trouble in the past:yuck:

[glhs875]

I agree, a manual trans would make a better test bed.

[turbovanman²]

Maybe an auto for a test best isn't the best scenario... especially if Simon is having issues with his van as well?

I can guarantee the RP cam gears are correct, not just because I was the one who made these (along with a friend), but, because if you knew the process involved it would be obvious. :thumb:

The earliest ones I made, there was a 2-1/2 degree difference because I used the 557 (turbo and 2.2 n/a) and 069 (2.5 n/a) cores. I checked them and saw 2-1/2 degrees difference between the two. So, depending on which core I used, straight up on the 069 could mean you were 2-1/2 degrees out (advanced I believe...) and the 557 was dead on. So, from those early ones on, I made 2 fixtures for the cores that indexed the 069 2-1/2 degrees to be dead on with the 557. 40 teeth in the gear. 1 tooth = 9 degrees. 9+3 =12 degrees which could possibly mean that Simon's cam timing is one tooth off. Simon...I know you've done sohc cam timing many times, but in the process, do you line up the flywheel's mark to the 0-degree mark in the bellhousing to ensure that #1 is at TDC and the distributor drive gear is parrallel? This makes cam timing much easier for me. Doing the old straight edge technique between gears makes things much harder to get right.

I also have a 5spd tester, that would be Paul of TU to test them as well, so that side will be taken care of.


As for Gary D's gear, yes, it is off, I install the cam using the stock 557 pulley, then try to put the adj one on-doesn't fit, Its aprox 4 deg off-retarded. Again, going to try the timing light trick tonight. As for everything lined up yes, lol!, I have made sure the piston is at TDC and then verified timing mark on bellhousing-dead on. Rotor position doesn't matter as thats set when checking ignition timing but yes, thats all marked correctly.

On to fears about my van yes, I will have it worked out before I use it as a guinea pig, otherwise, I have a few td friends in the area that can be my mules, :thumb:


I agree, a manual trans would make a better test bed.

See above and remember, we need both sides, as we do have auto's and sticks. :nod:

[Directconnection]

As for Gary D's gear, yes, it is off, I install the cam using the stock 557 pulley, then try to put the adj one on-doesn't fit, Its aprox 4 deg off-retarded.


Must have the old one. 2-1/2 degree difference like I said (couldn't remember which way). But having the cam maxed out (12 degrees) means something must be out of tune as I have never heard anyone needing that much adjustment.

[turbovanman²]

Must have the old one. 2-1/2 degree difference like I said (couldn't remember which way). But having the cam maxed out (12 degrees) means something must be out of tune as I have never heard anyone needing that much adjustment.

Don't even get me started, grrrrrrrrr, :mad: :blah:

Like I said, runs fine straight up with the S1?

[mrboost]

Actually, I was going to do this with my race car which is auto.

They're correct though, manual is better for testing if you want to see a dyno curve from an inertia dyno that more closely matches what you'd see on an engine dyno. HOWEVER, if you were making a cam for an auto then, well, manual isn't so good. LOL


I also have a 5spd tester, that would be Paul of TU to test them as well, so that side will be taken care of.


As for Gary D's gear, yes, it is off, I install the cam using the stock 557 pulley, then try to put the adj one on-doesn't fit, Its aprox 4 deg off-retarded. Again, going to try the timing light trick tonight. As for everything lined up yes, lol!, I have made sure the piston is at TDC and then verified timing mark on bellhousing-dead on. Rotor position doesn't matter as thats set when checking ignition timing but yes, thats all marked correctly.

On to fears about my van yes, I will have it worked out before I use it as a guinea pig, otherwise, I have a few td friends in the area that can be my mules, :thumb:



See above and remember, we need both sides, as we do have auto's and sticks. :nod:

[turbovanman²]

Actually, I was going to do this with my race car which is auto.

They're correct though, manual is better for testing if you want to see a dyno curve from an inertia dyno that more closely matches what you'd see on an engine dyno. HOWEVER, if you were making a cam for an auto then, well, manual isn't so good. LOL

Great, throw a wrech into it, :mad: lol!

I have a few guys around me that can test so no biggie. I probably won't have specific auto/stick grinds anyhow, that would cost too much.

[John B]

As for Gary D's gear, yes, it is off, I install the cam using the stock 557 pulley, then try to put the adj one on-doesn't fit, Its aprox 4 deg off-retarded. Oh swell. Now I have to put my 557 gear back on (if I can still find it...)to see if the RP adjustable gear is indexed right or not. It never ends! :yuck:

[turbovanman²]

Oh swell. Now I have to put my 557 gear back on (if I can still find it...)to see if the RP adjustable gear is indexed right or not. It never ends! :yuck:

I redid it last night and Steve is right, its aprox 2 deg retarded. Not really a big deal if you see that when you put it together. Heck, the gear is adjustable, lol!

[8valves]

Great, throw a wrech into it, :mad: lol!

I have a few guys around me that can test so no biggie. I probably won't have specific auto/stick grinds anyhow, that would cost too much.

However, I DO have a 5 spd, and Paul is just around the corner for me for tuning purposes. Not to mention that I need to get teh car re-done anyways (Paul, you'll be hearing from me soon on that note) that if you really need someone to test on the 2.2 side of things for high rpm airflow stuff then I could be your guy.

The new head should hopefully be right around 220 cfm intake. :thumb:

Aaron Miller

[Directconnection]

Oh swell. Now I have to put my 557 gear back on (if I can still find it...)to see if the RP adjustable gear is indexed right or not. It never ends! :yuck:

The purpose of the adjustable cam gear is for those either wishing to shift the power curve, OR more importantly, those who swapped out their stock cam, for a TBI or slider to roller setup (or Taft or?)

So... dialing in, track, dyno or seat of the pants is the best as even straight up may not be 100% straight up when you add in all the stack up tolerances of the sprocket's keyways, and the shaft's keyways (total of 4 degrees right there) and belt stretch and tension, etc...

Don't sweat it... we are only talking a difference of 2 degrees here which your engine could be out that or more by itself with the oem stock gear, technically speaking. If wishing to install the cam gear at the 0 mark from the get go, then maybe an adjustable cam gear is no better for you than a stocker that is permanantly set to 0. ;)

[Putter]

Ramp rates have been brought up in this thread so I figured I'd throw in something.

If one was looking to increase ramp rates, either a larger roller or a larger base circle would have to be utilized.

If the cams were ground for a shorter lifter (higher base circle) then you could use a more aggressive ramp rate. The PT lifters are .110 inches shorter are they not(I honestly cannot remember). If the cams were just ground for this there could be quite a bit more lee way on the grind itself.

For a demostration, look at a 4.6 2v/4v Ford camshaft. They use a follower nearly identical to 2.2 followers, bu the base circle is double or more the diameter of our puny camshafts.

Another option which would be a more expensive option would be for an entire valvetrain package. Use shorter valves and the PT lifters, factory follower and a large base circle custom grind and different springs obviously. This would open the door to almost anything without changing the angle that the rocker sits on both the lifter and the valve tip, so hopefully it wouldn't introduce a problem with kicking rockers off more often.

Of course, we'd be looking at a 500$ cam package at that point... :)

[John B]

If wishing to install the cam gear at the 0 mark from the get go, then maybe an adjustable cam gear is no better for you than a stocker that is permanantly set to 0. ;) I like to start from the position the cam was designed to install at and then tweak it from there.

[turbovanman²]

Very interesting Putter. I like it but most don't believe in the PT lifters so maybe something for a one off?

One reason I want to go with new billets so I can use my PT lifters.

[John B]

Another good reason is to keep our valve/rocker/lifter geometry as close to the original position as practical to minimize guide wear from side loading.

[shelbyplaya]

yeah. i'll gladley give them some real street testing for ya!

[Whorse]

I'd agree with the heavy vehicle aspect. With a Lebaron Drop Top and a Van, I don't exactly have 2 light cars.

Something lumpy that makes our cars sound mean with an opened exhaust would be excellent for street purposes.

If you want to go all out, look into cams like ferarri uses, with variations on the lobes, computer controlled to change with RPMs. There's a decent diagram of them on howstuffworks.com I think.

[contraption22]

Which is great, but I do highway racing more than anything else, and an auto just doesn't cut it in that arena.

Aaron Miller

An auto with high final drive pulls just fine on the highway bud:)

[8valves]

An auto with high final drive pulls just fine on the highway bud:)

Right, but it's not as flexible as far as a good starting point for a race. With only two gears to choose from now it's more than likely either a bit too low or a bit too high of an rpm that you're trying to sit at when you hit the 3rd honk. With the 5 speed it gives you a little more flexibility, as well as the tricky 2nd honk punch the clutch and tach up and dump it from a roll... wow what a feeling!!

Aaron Miller

[Whorse]

I'm in for a Cam for heavier cars. My GTC weighs as much as my Caravan with the soft top and seat motors all added in, so I have two vehicles that might benefit.

[Murphy]

any updates?

[turbovanman²]

Probably not going to happen, to much politics. I can't afford to sink money in and get shafted.

[boost geek]

ill check my photo bucket to morrow for my cam card bedtime now