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View Full Version : Turbo/5-speed '91 Cutlass dyno vids & pics



TurboSedan
11-23-2006, 09:23 AM
so last Sunday morning i headed down to KAZ MotorSports (http://www.kazmotorsports.com) in Colorado Springs for some much needed dyno tuning for my Turbo Cutlass Supreme. i know the guy that owns KAZ MotorSports from tgpforums.com. he owns two Turbo Grand Prixs and one of them has a 5-speed swap like mine. i couldn't have asked for a better shop to tune my car :D

anyways, last year i dyno'd the car at DynoPros in Denver and i got 227whp & 325wtq pushing ~12psi with a MBC. not bad, but A/F was off-the-scale sub 10:1 as soon as it spooled up (yikes!) so there was definately room for improvement via tuning alone. this time around i wasn't really going for more power; i just wanted to get it tuned safely and work out some driveability problems i had. the car used to buck really bad in 1st & 2nd gear under very light decel/accel conditions and even while trying to maintain a steady cruise in 3rd gear at 30mph. it was driving me nuts. the speedo was also wayyyy off and it is now spot on :)

however, the #s i achieved this time aren't directly comparable since DynoPros uses a Dynojet whereas KAZ MotorSports uses a DynoDynamics machine. numerous members of the Rocky Mountain Club Grand Prix guys wanted to "test" the differences between the two dyno shops and they found that all of their cars dyno'd between 38-40% difference (uncorrected) between the two shops.....and that was with NO changes to their cars between dyno sessions and they dyno'd at both shops on the same day!

sooo....my Cutlass dyno'd 205whp after the KAZ MotorSports tune. that is with a 15% correction factor the DynoDynamics software called for for altitude etc. (the KAZ MotorSports shop is at ~6200ft varified with GPS). to compare my numbers to the DynoJet i ran on last year, i added another 24% to that (39% correction factor total). the result - 254whp & 360 ft/lbs at the wheels! this time around i was pushing ~14psi but was now using the stock wastegate solenoid (which may have hurt my #s - see below). the only changes to the car since i dyno'd last year:

- added Magnecor KV85 spark plug wires

- added fake dual outlet exhaust from my old Grand Prix Turbo STE, BUT i think this actually hurt my #s. the dual outlet exhaust i put on has two RUSTY stock mufflers that are probably clogged up pretty good (the car is wayyyy quieter after i put this on). when i dyno'd last year i was using the stock single outlet exhaust but with a straight through glasspack that i think probably flowed alot better.

- i deleted EGR completely but i don't think that mattered at all.

- i used the factory Turbo Grand Prix wastegate solenoid boost controller instead of my M&M Racing grainger valve style manual boost controller.

the car is now much faster AND sooo much nicer to drive without that bucking problem and a speedometer that is finally accurate. A/F is now around 12:1. gas mileage increased dramatically. the most noticeable difference in power is that the car will now HAUL @$$ up to 100mph in 4th gear and 5th gear power dramatically increased as well. previously, after i shifted to 4th & ecspecially 5th gear the car would turn into a total dog. the way it is now, downshifting to 4th gear at 75mph on the Interstate to pass someone the car just gets up and GOES! i did this with a Cobalt SS on the way back home and he tried to keep up. he was probably wondering WTF!? i had under the hood seeing an older grandpa looking Cutlass Supreme four door sedan fly by him so fast. i also played around with a modded (ie louder than stock) LS1 Z28 but suffice to say i'm definately not at that level....yet. i didn't actually race the Z28 but i did see him race the Cobalt SS (we were all kind of messing around on I-25 at the same time). the Z28 walked the Cobalt SS and let off pretty quick since it was obvious the Z28 was out of his league. after i realized they were racing (i was behind them on a 3 lane stretch of I-25) i floored it just to see what would happen. i was about 1.5 car lengths behind when i started and probably went WOT 1-2 second after they did. like i said, the Z28 had stopped racing the Cobalt SS pretty quickly (about 5 seconds after i floored it) but meanwhile the Cobalt SS noticed i was "trying" to keep up and he stayed on it! i ended up walking by him haha...even with his head start.

i'm happy :D BUT i found that i'm having a boost control issue. my boost will spike to 15-16psi according to my Autometer mechanical boost gauge and then fall off quickly to ~12psi, then slowly fall down to 5-6psi up to redline. i'm not sure what the problem is but i'm going to scan tomarrow to look at wastegate duty cycle to see what's happening there. if that isn't the problem then i either have a boost leak somewhere (doubtful - i thoroughly checked everywhere) OR my wastegate actuator and/or wastegate solenoid is bad. i really wish i would have tried dyno'ing using my MBC set to 14psi instead...my #s might have been a little higher. my boost was always rock solid all the way to redline with the MBC. regardless, i can't complain. i gained 28whp & 30 ft/lbs at the wheels just from EEPROM chip tuning not to mention the improvements in driveability and a much safer and more efficient fuel curve. i was probably hurting the piston rings with the previous sub 10:1 A/F!

i took a few pics last week while getting the car prepared for the dyno session..

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC03002.jpg

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC03006.jpg

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC03008.jpg

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC03009.jpg

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC03010.jpg

my new Turbos Unleashed manifold distribution block is only being used for the boost/vacuum gauge right now but as soon as i have time to remove the plenum and get rid of the stock lines the capped fittings you see will be the sources for MAP & FPR.

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC03003.jpg

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC03004.jpg

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC03005.jpg

more pics & vids coming shortly....

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Joshua Mitchell
'89 Lebaron GTS Turbo - T2/A555 - 1 of 268
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq

TurboSedan
11-23-2006, 09:33 AM
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03024.JPG

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03029.JPG
yes...my rear end alignment is way off. i'm in the middle of taking care of that issue now (i have new KYB GR-2 rear struts, new KYB strut mounts, and new AFCO Racing adjustable coilover parts that are hopefully going in next week, then it gets an alignment).

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03025.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03026.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03028.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03030.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03031.JPG

that's the EPROM emulator connected to my ECM going to the laptop in the front seat:
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03032.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03033.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03040.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03045.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03046.JPG

vids coming shortly.....

------------------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'89 Lebaron GTS Turbo - T2/A555 - 1 of 268
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq

TurboSedan
11-23-2006, 09:56 AM
this is the baseline run. the vid is kind of dark because we did it the night before with the shop doors closed.
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03019.MPG (14.1 MB)

this is a driver's side front/corner vid of a WOT pull. since my coolant overflow tank had to be removed to have access to the ECM for the emulator, we had to rig up that Zerex coolant bottle to catch any coolant overflow (as you can see it's not there in the 1st vid). the baseline run the night before resulted in a little coolant being spilled on the floor (oops).
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03034.MPG (8.5 MB)

another driver's side front/corner vid of a WOT pull. this was the next day so it's brighter.
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03036.MPG (7.6 MB)

this is a rear driver's side/corner view of another WOT pull. my car is wayyy quieter now with the old crusty Turbo STE mufflers than it was with the single glasspack i previously had.
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03038.MPG (5.7 MB)

driver's side vid of another WOT pull. i was a little too close hence the audio distortion.
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03043.MPG (6.0 MB)

this is a driver's side/corner vid of a dyno pull for driveability to make sure the bucking problem was fixed (this type of dyno tuning cannot be done on a Dynojet...DynoDynamics machines are the awesome!).
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03044.MPG (6.6 MB)

maybe now the Cutty can finally keep up with my brother's Omni GLH Turbo :D it's probably not quite that fast yet, but getting close.

i'd say i pretty much have the stock Garrett T25 maxed out. my next mods will be Ford Yellow top injectors, Walbro 255 fuel pump, and 1.6 rockers arms from a '94 3100 V6 i just bought. after that i'm not sure what direction i'm going to take with the car...i'd really like go Turbo GEN-III 3400 but i might just stick with the GEN-II 3.1 and add a bigger turbo, cam and full 3" mandrel bent exhaust. there is one guy on the tgpforums.com that is putting down 302whp/409wtq with the GEN-II 3.1 TGP engine using a FMIC and the GT2871R turbo. i have an extra good running TGP engine sitting in my garage so that's probably what i'm going to do. besides, the GEN-II 60*V6s look so much better than the GEN-III 3100/3400s anyway...

------------------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'89 Lebaron GTS Turbo - T2/A555 - 1 of 268
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq

WVRampage
11-23-2006, 11:07 AM
Looks good Im sure it is alot of fun to drive.

Dave
11-23-2006, 11:45 AM
That's just awesome. :eek: That'd be kool to see that motor in an older Cutlass.

turbovanmanČ
11-23-2006, 04:02 PM
Great job, I always liked W bodies.

I have never seen a turbo 3.1 in person, I guess Canada didn't get them or if so, there rare as hell. Looks good man.

LynX853
11-23-2006, 04:07 PM
12:1 a/f?

turbo cars need around 11

TurboSedan
11-23-2006, 04:58 PM
12:1 a/f?

turbo cars need around 11

i may be wrong, i'm still waiting for the guy to send me the scans of the runs. i barely got a chance to look at the screen because i was so busy taking pics and vids. i will post links to the dyno graphs when i get them.

------------------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'89 Lebaron GTS Turbo - T2/A555 - 1 of 268
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq

TurboSedan
11-23-2006, 05:28 PM
Great job, I always liked W bodies.

I have never seen a turbo 3.1 in person, I guess Canada didn't get them or if so, there rare as hell. Looks good man.

you are correct, the ASC/McLaren TGPs were not sold in Canada. altogether there were 1000 Grand Prix Turbo STE sedans produced in 1990 only (available in white and maroon), and about 3500 TGPs made in 1989 & 1990 (available in bright red and black). the production #s aren't varifiable though, so basically there were about 7000-8000 Turbo Grand Prix produced altogether. it's too bad ASC/McLaren didn't give them a numbered dash plaque like the Shelby's got :( the most rare TGP would probably be the maroon '90 Turbo STE sedan, followed by a black '89 TGP coupe. the most common would definately be a bright red '90 TGP coupe.

i swapped my M&M Racing MBC back in and boost is now rock solid at WOT all the way through 4th gear :thumb: i think the problem was actually the rubber vacuum 'L' fitting line on the wastegate solenoid leaking. it appeared to be stretched out and just worn out from heat over the years. i was worried my wastegate actuator might have a torn diaphram or the wastegate solenoid itself was bad, but that doesn't appear to be the case. i might put the TGP wastegate solenoid back in later....but i just like the grainger valve so much :nod: the RFL is MUCH louder even at part throttle lower boost shifts (which i like), it's easily adjustable, and of course less lag (as if a little T25 on a 3.1L V6 would have lag anyway lol). that's kind of good and bad though. in 1st & 2nd gear it's bad becuase i have NO traction at all. in 3rd gear on up less lag is great since traction isn't an issue there. basically, the car sucks to race from a dig, but from a roll it's GREAT! at the track i'd probably get some pretty horrible 60ft times :p

i think what i'll end up doing is running dual stage boost control using two grainger valves. the 1st one will be for 1st & 2nd gear and be set as high as possible before i start losing traction, then the other one set to ~13psi from 3rd gear on up. past 13psi the little T25 is just going to blow HOT air and probably slow me down and/or melt a piston or two.

anyways, my Autometer mechanical boost gauge was showing 2psi with the key-on-engine-off while i was swapping the boost controllers out :confused: right now the gauge is spiking to 13-14psi then settling right on about 12.5psi to redline. so does that mean i'm really pushing an actual 10.5psi?? as it is right now, i have the grainger valve almost all the way tightened up. there is no threading showing at all.

well i'm going to wait a bit and then check plugs. then i get to help iTurbo install some FWDPerformance adjustable cam sprockets on his Spirit R/T. then Turkey!

------------------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'89 Lebaron GTS Turbo - T2/A555 - 1 of 268
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq

8valves
11-23-2006, 08:31 PM
12:1 a/f?

turbo cars need around 11

This is a far too generalized statement to just lay it out like that. I'm not going to change the topic of this thread about it either... but dependent upon timing and fuel octane used, and overall compression you can run a variety of AFR's and still be safe. Some cars make more power at richer (10.5:1) AFR's than they do at a "correct" 11.5:1... all dependent upon combination.

Cool car for sure! There is a guy at my school with a lightly modified TGP. Maroon with maroon wheels even! Pretty neat stuff!

AM

TurboSedan
11-23-2006, 10:29 PM
Cool car for sure! There is a guy at my school with a lightly modified TGP. Maroon with maroon wheels even! Pretty neat stuff!

AM

that's gotta be Shawn. he's the only maroon Turbo STE owner that i even know of and he lives in MI. he's actually got 3100 heads/intake on his TGP engine and i think he's ran a 14.6 @ 95mph with it but he keeps blowing up transmissions. i've never met him but he seems to be a pretty cool guy. i think he goes by dbtk2 or something like that on the tgpforums.com

thanks for the compliments everyone!
------------------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'89 Lebaron GTS Turbo - T2/A555 - 1 of 268
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq

8valves
11-23-2006, 10:58 PM
Yessir, it would be Shawn. It's actually in Lima, OH, not MI. He also has an Grand Prix GT w/ a GTP blower setup on the NA bottom end... it runs pretty good too.

There are a whole group of those boys down here that like to try to start some races. If you speak with him mention you spoke with Aaron Miller with the Shelby Charger from his school. He might be able to figure it out right away.

AM

TurboSedan
11-25-2006, 02:46 AM
met up with a couple of my local W-body friends today and got some cool pics. i just had to show off this one:

http://www.turbosedan.com/112406/IMAG0072.JPG

red white & blue American made power :thumb:

the Redfire Metallic 2000 GTP is probably a just a bit faster than my Turbo Cutlass although we haven't raced since my tune. the GTP has a ZZP 3.4 S/C Pulley, DHP PCM, 1.9 Roller Rockers, Wizaired Intake, 3" Downpipe/No cat, U-bend/Res delete, 180 T-stat, and Autolite 104's. his GTP dyno'd 240whp/320wtq at the same shop on the same day that my Cutlass dyno'd 227whp/325wtq last year in Denver.

the white 1995 Monte Carlo in the middle is actually much faster than either of our cars. it has a 3.4L DOHC LQ1 with a full T04E turbo, big FMIC, full 3" mandrel bent exhaust etc. his Monte dyno'd 325whp/349wtq (also on the same day at the same shop that my Cutlass & the GTP dyno'd at). he also owns a 2004 Honda S2000 with a GT30R turbo and FMIC among MANY other mods. that thing dyno'd 443whp! i took a ride in it tonight and it is by far the fastest car i had ever ridden in. it got up to 90mph so damn fast!

http://www.turbosedan.com/112406/IMAG0069.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/112406/IMAG0068.JPG

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Joshua Mitchell
'89 Lebaron GTS Turbo - T2/A555 - 1 of 268
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq

Reaper1
12-04-2006, 01:14 AM
I've got a question about the tranny in the TGP. Is it the same as the one that is found in the Maserati TC 16V cars? If so, you stated above that there was a guy that kept blowing them up. That thing is supposed to be rated for 400lb-ft of torque...and he's WAY below that. Something doesn't add up here if this is the case...

TurboSedan
12-04-2006, 01:07 PM
I've got a question about the tranny in the TGP. Is it the same as the one that is found in the Maserati TC 16V cars? If so, you stated above that there was a guy that kept blowing them up. That thing is supposed to be rated for 400lb-ft of torque...and he's WAY below that. Something doesn't add up here if this is the case...

all Turbo Grand Prixs came with the 4T60HD automatic transmission. that's what the guy keeps blowing up. my car has a Getrag 282 in it from an '89 Grand Prix that had a NA 2.8L V6. it bolts right up and is definately stronger than a 4T60HD. i think the only reason the TGP wasn't available with the Getrag 282 5-speed was gearing (it's way too steep for the Turbo 3.1s torque). it's too bad they didn't offer a numerically lower FDR version of the 282 for the TGP :( that would have made it a strong high 14-second car stock instead of low 15s.

the 16V Masi TC came with a Getrag 284, which is the same transmission (besides the case of course) that came in the '91-'93 3.4L DOHC equipt Cutlass, Lumina, and Grand Prixs. there is a guy on the TGP forum that has a Getrag 284 swapped into his TGP. his PB so far is 13.60 @ 108.71mph using a GT2871R BB turbo. his 284 seems to be holding up fine but he keeps breaking axles. his last dyno was 302whp/409wtq!

------------------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just WAI for now

Reaper1
12-05-2006, 02:09 AM
I'm not expert on GM trannies, but don't the SSEi tranny internals fit in that case? If so, then there are PLENTY of upgrades, but expect to pay about $3500-4000 for a fully built tranny with a converter!(and people b*tch about the A604!!!!)

Nice info to know about this stuff...keep the info coming!

TurboSedan
12-05-2006, 12:38 PM
I'm not expert on GM trannies, but don't the SSEi tranny internals fit in that case? If so, then there are PLENTY of upgrades, but expect to pay about $3500-4000 for a fully built tranny with a converter!(and people b*tch about the A604!!!!)

Nice info to know about this stuff...keep the info coming!

the earlier ('92-'95) Series-I L67 Supercharged Bonnevilles had a 4T60-E (not sure if it was considered HD?) so it wouldn't work with the TGP since its 4T60-HD is non-electronic (you could probably get it to work, but it wouldn't work with the ECM as is). the later Series-II L67 Supercharged Bonnevilles had the 4T65E-HD which are alot stronger. there are kits that allow the use of the 4T65E-HD in an OBD-1 car but they are expensive (around $700 IIRC).

if i wanted an auto, i'd probably ditch the TGP 'LG5' engine completely, then turbocharge a '96+ 'LA1' 3400 engine instead and use the 4T65E-HD and a DHP PowerTuner. you could always just swap in a SII L67 but i personally like the 60*V6s because i'm just more familiar with them. both are good dependable engines though that do VERY well with boost.

----------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just WAI for now

Reaper1
12-05-2006, 09:42 PM
I'm not 100% on which 3.4 you're talking about, but I HOPE you're not reffering to the monstrosity that GM came up with by boring/stroking a 2.8 and then slapping DOHC heads on it and drove them off of a chain that was driven off of a "counterbalance" that occupied the place where the cam "should" have been. I've had the mispleasure of having to help a friend with one of those...what a serious PITA!!!

I DO like the SII 3.8 though...that engine is nice...

TurboSedan
12-06-2006, 04:40 AM
I'm not 100% on which 3.4 you're talking about, but I HOPE you're not reffering to the monstrosity that GM came up with by boring/stroking a 2.8 and then slapping DOHC heads on it and drove them off of a chain that was driven off of a "counterbalance" that occupied the place where the cam "should" have been. I've had the mispleasure of having to help a friend with one of those...what a serious PITA!!!

I DO like the SII 3.8 though...that engine is nice...

nah, not the '91-'97 DOHC 24-Valve 3.4L V6 'LQ1'. the 3400 'LA1' is the '96-'05 pushrod GEN-III 60*V6 engine. both are basically a bored & stroked 2.8L though. i don't particularly like the DOHC LQ1 either, but i do have a friend that turbocharged his with a full T4 and it put down 325whp/350wtq (in a '95 Monte Carlo Z34...very nicely done). i agree the 'LQ1' is kind of a frankenstein engine. they take up the whole damn engine bay and working on them looks like a PITA.

i like the Buick 90* engines alot i just don't like the horribly inefficient M90 on the L67 and the fact they aren't naturally balanced like the 60*V6 or a SBC V8 is for example. still, they are known to be dependable engines. i really like mine, although my Regal is all stock for now. my Cutlass would whoop the crap out of it :D

----------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just WAI for now

WickedShelby88
12-07-2006, 03:22 AM
Yeah stick with the 3.1 or similar. Plus with forged rods, hardened crank, and mahles GM wasnt far off and building a factory screamer when they did the TGP run. I agree the $T60 is a weak link. I changed out at least 10 of those when I was turning wrenches. This was with NA motors. I cant imagine how hard the turbo motor is on them, but if you dont use the right torque converter like the high stall the turbo had you will run into problems. Im curious how many of those 3.4 DOHC 5 speed cars there were. Id like to find of those trannys for a fiero buildup im wanting to do, but I think the GT fieros with the getrag 5 speed V6 had the same trans? No? I must be sick for wanting to drop the V6 turbo in a FIREO....

TurboSedan
12-07-2006, 12:56 PM
Yeah stick with the 3.1 or similar. Plus with forged rods, hardened crank, and mahles GM wasnt far off and building a factory screamer when they did the TGP run. I agree the $T60 is a weak link. I changed out at least 10 of those when I was turning wrenches. This was with NA motors. I cant imagine how hard the turbo motor is on them, but if you dont use the right torque converter like the high stall the turbo had you will run into problems. Im curious how many of those 3.4 DOHC 5 speed cars there were. Id like to find of those trannys for a fiero buildup im wanting to do, but I think the GT fieros with the getrag 5 speed V6 had the same trans? No? I must be sick for wanting to drop the V6 turbo in a FIREO....

V6/5-speed Fieros got the Getrag 282 since the 284 didn't come out until '91. i know there is a guy in SLC that has a Turbo 3100 Fiero with a Getrag 282. he's using modified TGP code to run the engine. he's the site owner/admin at the gmpcm.com forum (EPROM tuner). personally i would avoid the 284. they are hard to find, clutches are crazy expensive, and as far as i know they can't be rebuilt (you have to send the entire transmission to Getrag so they can send you a new one which is $$$$). the Getrag 282 is strong enough anyway (depending of course) and weighs 100lbs less. i just wish there were more gearing options available not to mention a Quaife or OBX. the only LSD available that i know of is the clutch type.

----------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just WAI for now

WickedShelby88
12-07-2006, 02:01 PM
Im sure an OBX or Quaife could be adapted to fit in a 282, however I always liked the clutch type LSDs in the RWD cars ive owned with them. My SVO's acted more like a spool though. In a Fiero I think it would work well, but in your case I definitely see your point. That and having clutch material float around in a trans(depending on how its made, dont know never had getrag apart of that vintage) isnt exactly a strong point.

Ondonti
12-07-2006, 05:54 PM
why so timid about the turbo?

Im using a much bigger turbo then anything listed here and making boost isnt an issue.

I would not put a gt28 on a 3L+ engine

I think your larger displacement fwd engine has enough torque down low to already mess up traction...Get a turbo that will compliment what you already have.

Reaper1
12-08-2006, 03:23 AM
I don't think it's crazy for wanting a turbo V6 Fiero. I personally LOVE the idea! The V8 swaps are cool and all, but they do get kinda limited with the amount of mods you can do ect with certain engines. I like the V6 because it is a bit smaller...it's seems like a natural fit for that car. My only gripe is I'd liek to see a V6 that is either all aluminum, or iron blockw/aluminum heads. All iron engines are archaic to me. There's no point. Also, as much as I like the Buick 3.8L(I'm tlaking from the T-type and GN's), I don't like the idea of a SOHV engine....I'd much rather see either a SOHC or even a DOHC engine in there(just not the 3.4L). The problem is that a lot of those type engines are too wide for that engine bay(in stock configuration anyways).

Then again...an all aluminum Northstar V8 with a supercharger sounds pretty tempting at that point! I've seen one done, but with nitrose at the track run low 12's all day. He made even more power later on, but was having issues snapping axles....darn...

TurboSedan
12-08-2006, 03:36 AM
why so timid about the turbo?

Im using a much bigger turbo then anything listed here and making boost isnt an issue.

I would not put a gt28 on a 3L+ engine

I think your larger displacement fwd engine has enough torque down low to already mess up traction...Get a turbo that will compliment what you already have.

i'd go with the GT2871R simply because it's bolt-on but mostly because i HATE lag (like my old T2 '89 Lebaron GTS had....ugh!). i'm not out for max power #s or out to beat any TGP timeslips. i just want a car that's FUN on the street. i might go as large as the GT3076R-WG which would bolt onto my crossover pipe but then i'd need to fab up a downpipe or grind the ---- out of my existing one since the wheel is so much larger. at that point i'd rather just swap out to a 3400.

now if i were to go with a GEN-III 3400, which flows wayyyy better than the older GEN-II 3.1 MPFI engines, i'd probably consider a GT30R. but really i haven't even looked into it yet. even with this stock TGP T25 i'm happy (for now)

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Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just stock for now

TurboSedan
12-08-2006, 03:38 AM
why so timid about the turbo?

Im using a much bigger turbo then anything listed here and making boost isnt an issue.

I would not put a gt28 on a 3L+ engine

I think your larger displacement fwd engine has enough torque down low to already mess up traction...Get a turbo that will compliment what you already have.

btw did you ever dyno your Turbo 3.0L? just curious as to how it compared to mine considering they are close to the same displacement yet so much different.
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Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just stock for now

Charger R/T
12-12-2006, 10:32 PM
How long have you had the HM-282 in the car? Were you having issues with the auto's? Did you rebuild your HM-282 before installing it or use it the way you got it?

When you were on the dyno. what were you adjusting to tune it?

You were talking earlier about ford injectors. Do you have a part number for them and what do they flow compared to the stock TGP?
Tim

TurboSedan
12-13-2006, 02:42 AM
How long have you had the HM-282 in the car? Were you having issues with the auto's? Did you rebuild your HM-282 before installing it or use it the way you got it?

my original 4T60 auto was still "ok" when i pulled it but the fluid was getting brownish and it downshifted HARD. that thing is huge compared to a Getrag 282!

i swapped the Getrag 282 into the car way back in 2002 i think. the Cutlass had about 164,000 miles when i did the 5-speed swap. that 282 came from a '90 Grand Prix with unknown miles. IIRC it had been rebuilt ~25,000 miles before i got it but who knows how good of a job they did. i killed that one....probably more my fault than anything because admittedly i was doing alot of burnouts and hard launhes after i got it in (having too much fun heh). then one day i was just driving along in 3rd gear @ 30mph and it started getting really noisy and losing gears one by one. i barely made it home. here is the result:

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/trans/getrag_282_FUBAR.jpg

the replacement i got was from an '88 Grand Prix that had 110,000 miles. when i bought it it needed a new TO bearing fork but it wasn't rebuilt or anything. i had that in the car for around 15,000 miles and it was still working perfectly when i took it out (i've since sold that Getrag to a member here that has a '90 Grand Prix Turbo STE). i initially only took the trans out because the clutch was toasted.

in the meantime i had gotten a free Getrag 282 from an '89 Grand Prix. unknown miles and not rebuilt. only one way to tell if it's good really - put it in the car and try it. it actually went in when i turbocharged the car last year. 20,000 miles later and it's still doing great; no noise, GM Syncromesh always stays clean etc, shifts really nice etc. i don't do burnouts or hard launches anymore of course. the only problem i have with it is that it leaks a little fluid and gearing is just too steep for my application.




When you were on the dyno. what were you adjusting to tune it?

i didn't do the tuning myself, the owner of the shop did. he started out with a chip he had burnt for his own 5-speed swapped TGP which was nice because i had a pretty good chip to start with and his mods were very similar. it was then changed a little for my car. i think he fattened up the fuel @ WOT and leaned out cruise conditons, corrected the speedo, and the intercooler fan now comes on at 100*F (alot earlier than before). as for hardware/software he was using a Moates Ostrich EPROM emulator connected directly to where the stock MemCal (chip) plugs into the underhood ECM. that went to a laptop in the front seat. .bin file editing software was TunerPro RT which also datalogs using the ALDL cable. the chip was tuned while the car was being driven on the dyno. it took about 6 dyno runs to get it dialed in.



You were talking earlier about ford injectors. Do you have a part number for them and what do they flow compared to the stock TGP?
Tim

i think they're called the Yellow Tops. they are rated at 19psi. fiveomotorsport.com sells them for about $190/set of six. stock TGP injectors are rated at 22psi but that's at a higher pressure than Ford uses IIRC so they should flow about the same. they are a much cheaper alternative to a new set of stock GM TGP injectors. some other people are using NA 3800 L36 injectors in their TGP engine but i've heard they are a bit too long.

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Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just stock for now

Charger R/T
12-13-2006, 09:47 PM
Thanks for the info TurboSedan. We Pm'ed before on TD.com when my neighbor first got his TGP. Since then he has blown up the trans that was in it when he got the car and one rebuild. A month or two ago he was in Daytona and picked up everything needed to swap in a 5sp. We opened up the HM-282 a few weeks ago and good thing we did. The carrier bearings and races were worn and one of the carrier bearings was just starting to spin on the carrier. I had to take the carrier to work and get a guy to fix it. Most of the bearings seemed to have issues and a few of the syncros have seen better days mainly the one for 3rd and the one for 4th. The 3/4 shift fork was so thin I don't know how it didn't break. We have most of the factory "J" tools needed and even needed to make one we couldn't find. He brought over the last of the bearings we need to start putting it back together yesterday. If we can get this thing to keep a trans in it I will have more questions for you. Thanks again.
Tim

TurboSedan
12-13-2006, 10:10 PM
Thanks for the info TurboSedan. We Pm'ed before on TD.com when my neighbor first got his TGP. Since then he has blown up the trans that was in it when he got the car and one rebuild. A month or two ago he was in Daytona and picked up everything needed to swap in a 5sp. We opened up the HM-282 a few weeks ago and good thing we did. The carrier bearings and races were worn and one of the carrier bearings was just starting to spin on the carrier. I had to take the carrier to work and get a guy to fix it. Most of the bearings seemed to have issues and a few of the syncros have seen better days mainly the one for 3rd and the one for 4th. The 3/4 shift fork was so thin I don't know how it didn't break. We have most of the factory "J" tools needed and even needed to make one we couldn't find. He brought over the last of the bearings we need to start putting it back together yesterday. If we can get this thing to keep a trans in it I will have more questions for you. Thanks again.
Tim

what kind of car did the 282 come from? it has to be from a W-body to bolt into a Turbo Grand Prix; a 282 from a Cavalier or Beretta wouldn't have the right case to be bolt in (trans mount). i hope he didn't get the weaker Isuzu 282. probably not; i'm sure he would have noticed the different bellhousing bolt pattern.

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Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just stock for now

Charger R/T
12-13-2006, 10:13 PM
It came out of a 90 grand prix.
Tim

TurboSedan
12-14-2006, 12:41 PM
It came out of a 90 grand prix.
Tim

ah that's good. the gearing sucks for all of the low end torque the TGP engine puts out but that can be somewhat helped (3.77:1 1st gear with 3.61 FDR = no traction). no Quaife or OBX type LSD available :( i myself would like to get gears from a Getrag 282 out of a V6 Cavalier or Beretta installed into my W-body 282 case. i'd still be limited to the same FDR but 1st and 2nd gear aren't so damn steep and 5th gear has more overdrive for better highway mileage. that along with staged boost control should help traction alot (right now i'm starting to spin in 3rd gear at WOT/14+psi). of course, a bigger turbo with more lag would help some.

the Getrag 282 is almost a complete bolt-in. you need to drill a hole in the floorpan for the shifter cables and that's it. there are two ways to mount the clutch master cylinder and i have done both - one is to modify the existing hole in the firewall (ie not bolt-in) so it's square instead of round - then the clutch MC will twist and lock into place BUT it's not exactly in the correct posistion. very close though, and i've never had a problem (that's the way it is in my Cutlass). very easy to do with a Dremel and only takes 5-10 minutes. on my old Turbo STE i swapped out the whole firewall plate for one from an '89 Grand Prix with factory 5-speed so mounting the clutch MC was 100% bolt-in and in the correct posistion (i also did that to get rid of the insanely expensive to maintain, overly engineered, and notoriously problematic PowerMaster III ABS brakes that the TGPs have). that's a big job though - i have pics of me doing it all on my website. you have to remove the steering column, the entire dash and more to do it that way. but it's the perfect opportunity to get rid of the PMIII ABS and go with regular vacuum brakes which IMO are just as good (i'm not a big fan of ABS anyway). fwiw i upgraded my front brakes from stock 10.5" rotors to 11.25" rotors from a '96 Cutlass Supreme and upgraded the stock rear 10.1" rotors and CRAP designed '88-'93 rear calipers to 11" rotors and much better designed calipers from a '94 Cutlass Supreme (all bolt-on). the only downside is that i have no parking brake yet and that always sucks with a 5-speed. it can be made to work but i haven't tried yet. the only other issue is fabbing up a turbo support bracket. the TGPs 4T60HD transmission shield has an integrated turbo support bracket on it. i had one made at a local shop for $40:

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC01879.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC01885.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC01886.JPG

he'll defiately want one of these, otherwise the weight of the turbo could ruin the flex bellows on the crossover pipe.

----------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just stock for now

TurboSedan
12-14-2006, 01:05 PM
I don't think it's crazy for wanting a turbo V6 Fiero. I personally LOVE the idea! The V8 swaps are cool and all, but they do get kinda limited with the amount of mods you can do ect with certain engines. I like the V6 because it is a bit smaller...it's seems like a natural fit for that car. My only gripe is I'd liek to see a V6 that is either all aluminum, or iron blockw/aluminum heads. All iron engines are archaic to me. There's no point. Also, as much as I like the Buick 3.8L(I'm tlaking from the T-type and GN's), I don't like the idea of a SOHV engine....I'd much rather see either a SOHC or even a DOHC engine in there(just not the 3.4L). The problem is that a lot of those type engines are too wide for that engine bay(in stock configuration anyways).

a Turbo V6 Fiero would be a FUN ride! fwiw the GEN-II '87+ 60*V6 engines have aluminum heads and and iron block (there is an aluminum bowtie block available but that's expensive). of course, the Buick 3800s are all iron. if you wanted a DOHC V6 but didn't want the 3.4L LQ1, you could always go with the 3.5L Shortstar. it's basically a V6 verison of the Northstar and was rated at 215hp. this engine was only available in the Olds Intrigue & Aurora. it's a 90*V6 though, and with the big DOHC heads it might be too wide? but it is a Northstar family engine and i've always heard very good things about them. i'd take that over the 3.4L LQ1 any day but i don't know if you could bolt a Getrag 282/284 onto it?
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Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just stock for now

Charger R/T
12-15-2006, 10:34 PM
I forgot about the support for the pipe. A guy at work can make just about anything. I'll go look at the car tommorow to see the one there.

Those nice ABS brakes have been taken care of he had a junk 92 I wanted to swap the vacuum brakes off of for him but he insisted on fixing the ABS system. The master unit cost about 800.00 for rebuild but with new rotors, calipers, pads, and new lines it stops very well. Parking brake works good too.

He has to go out of town Saturday and am torn about working on it without him or waiting until Sunday. I really think he wants to be there.

I want him to go with a T3 to add some lag and a cooler charge even if he runs the same boost. It never really gets cold here and 6 to 7 months a year you have mid 90's everyday. But we want to make sure we fuel it. That is why I asked about the injectors sizes. I was looking for ones that will flow more with out getting to rich with the stock fuel pressure. Is there an adjustable regulator that fits that you know of?
Tim

Ground Rat
12-16-2006, 11:21 PM
Nice TGP, I'm also a w-body fan. I ran into a guy with a stock black TGP out here this summer and snapped a few pics. It was the first one I've seen in person. The guy said he had another one he was restoring (was in a wreck). I was thinking about getting a buick regal GS for a new DD, but decided to stick with my turbo sprint for awhile longer. Keep us updated on your project. :thumb:

iTurbo
12-22-2006, 02:41 AM
Lucky me, I am now the 'caretaker' of the turbo Cutlass owned by Turbosedan (my bro). He moved to Virginia and took his Regal GS; left the turbo Cutlass in the garage. I'm supposed to take it for a drive once a week and drive it in case my cars break down. Don't worry Josh, I won't wreck it!:eyebrows:

supercrackerbox
12-25-2006, 07:52 PM
I'm curious, what kind of clutch are you running in the car? Or would you have any reccomendations?

iTurbo
12-26-2006, 01:33 AM
He's using a stock Luk RepSet clutch for a n/a 3.1L (I helped put it in).

supercrackerbox
12-26-2006, 05:36 AM
No kidding? How does it hold up?

Reason I'm asking is I have a friend who's looking into playing around with a 3.1 J-body.

iTurbo
12-26-2006, 05:44 AM
Holds up real well. I don't think I've ever heard him complain about it actually. I use the Luk RepSet clutches in my TMs too and never a problem, although the most power I've put through one (on a dyno) is 198 WHP/270 WTQ in my Omni. We have five turbo cars all using the Luk clutch. I would say the Cutlass is making the most power though.

TurboSedan
12-26-2006, 12:09 PM
well my trip to VA didn't work out and i've decided to go to school here in Wyoming instead (cheap!).

as for the clutch it has held up great BUT i don't do any hard launches or speed shift it. i don't think it would last long doing that. but so far so good; i can't complain. i've never felt it slip yet under full boost 3rd/4th/5th gear. in 1st and 2nd the tires will just spin so no clutch slippage there. the clutch has been in the car since i turbocharged it last summer; about 15,000 miles or so. when i replace it i will probably be going with a SPEC stage-II.

i've been wanting to race my brother's cars. iTurbo has the GLH-T (2.5L "T2" currently @ 10psi, full 3" exhaust including TU SV, big NPR, 3.05 FDR A525 etc) and the Spirit R/T but they aren't quite ready yet. i think the race with the Omni would be close but all he would have to do is turn up the boost and it would blow my Cutlass away. the R/T currently pings over 7psi or something like that (i think it's basically stock with some LWP stuff and 3" exhaust from FWDP). when he gets the bugs worked out i'm sure i'll be seeing R/T tail lights. my other brother has a 2004 Maxima that i want to race. i'm pretty sure the Maxima would take my Regal GS but i bet my Olds will smoke it :D
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Joshua Mitchell
'91 Cutlass Supreme sedan - 3.1 Intercooled Turbo/Getrag HM-282 5-speed - 254whp/360wtq
'98 Regal GS - 3800 Series II Supercharged/HM-4T65E-HD - just stock for now

Charger R/T
12-30-2006, 10:56 AM
Here is a link to what my neighbor posted on the site he goes to with a link to pictures of his HM-282 apart on my trans bench.
http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=3756.0
Tim