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Mario_V
11-11-2006, 03:12 AM
Hello, Iīm a bit surprised. Tonight I took my 94 Phantom (Lebaron) with itīs recently installed wideband and it seems too rich.

My setup is as follows: mexican 2.5 TII, Garrett T2 at 19psi, SRT-4 IC, AFPR with base pressure set to 55psi, adj cam sprocket set to 2° advance, base timing at 10°, boost control Greddy Profec, no balance shafts, stock ECU, diode on MAP, stock injectors, Walbro 255 fuel pump, automatic trans.

When I floor it, the wideband monitor goes to 11.3, then quickly drops to 9.3 and slowly climbs up to 10.0 as the engine reaches redline.

I find it strange that with a stock ECU and stock injectors the air fuel ratio is so rich, maybe it has to do with altitude? I live at 7000ft. Do you think I should leave it as is or should I set the fuel pressure down? My goal is to run a 13.5 with this car, do you think it is possible with my set up? previous best was a 14.80 with the mitsu turbo at 15psi. The changes now are the Garrett and a pair of M/H slicks. I was about to buy larger injectors but I think they are not neccesary.

Iīll be running this car next weekend at a local event so any input you guys have is welcome :).

Thanks!

http://turbosmx.com/fotosforo/phantomy2.jpg

GLHSKEN
11-11-2006, 10:11 AM
You should be shooting for 11.5:1 as your goal. 9.3 under boost is WAY rich

John B
11-11-2006, 04:07 PM
I've got a lot to learn here obviously so forgive my ignorance but why don't we want 14.7?

Frank
11-11-2006, 05:18 PM
Because stoich is too hot at WOT power levels. It is different under cruise.


Frank

Dave
11-11-2006, 07:00 PM
13.5:1 is optimum for NA cars I think.

How are you possibly too rich running 19psi on stock injectors?? Those are the 32pph's, right?

Speedeuphoria
11-11-2006, 07:46 PM
because the air is thin at altitude, so the same amount of fuel will support more boost(but will be less hp than that boost at sea level)
so basically 19psi is more like 14psi at sea level(not sure on the exact formula)

Mario_V
11-14-2006, 11:33 AM
because the air is thin at altitude, so the same amount of fuel will support more boost(but will be less hp than that boost at sea level)
so basically 19psi is more like 14psi at sea level(not sure on the exact formula)

That must be it, thanks.

MiniMopar
11-14-2006, 11:42 AM
If you can observe the pressure that the MAP sensor sees, it might make more sense. The MAP is immune to atmospheric pressure, unlike a guage. There is baro compensation that happens, but it does sound aweful rich to me. Then again you have the Mexican cal, so maybe they let it go richer.

LynX853
11-14-2006, 12:40 PM
on a NATURALY asperated car,

14.7:1 is best for emmisions
12:1 is best for WOT power

on a forced induction car, you need a little more fuel to be on the safe side
around 11:1

mario03SRT
11-20-2006, 12:30 PM
on a NATURALY asperated car,

14.7:1 is best for emmisions
12:1 is best for WOT power

on a forced induction car, you need a little more fuel to be on the safe side
around 11:1

13.2 is optimum for an all motor car. 12.1 is optimum for a boosted car.

Optimum = most HP, not the safest mode for everyday conditions like bad fuel and high ambient temps.

mario03SRT
11-20-2006, 12:44 PM
Hello, Iīm a bit surprised. Tonight I took my 94 Phantom (Lebaron) with itīs recently installed wideband and it seems too rich.

My setup is as follows: mexican 2.5 TII, Garrett T2 at 19psi, SRT-4 IC, AFPR with base pressure set to 55psi, adj cam sprocket set to 2° advance, base timing at 10°, boost control Greddy Profec, no balance shafts, stock ECU, diode on MAP, stock injectors, Walbro 255 fuel pump, automatic trans.

When I floor it, the wideband monitor goes to 11.3, then quickly drops to 9.3 and slowly climbs up to 10.0 as the engine reaches redline.

I find it strange that with a stock ECU and stock injectors the air fuel ratio is so rich, maybe it has to do with altitude? I live at 7000ft. Do you think I should leave it as is or should I set the fuel pressure down? My goal is to run a 13.5 with this car, do you think it is possible with my set up? previous best was a 14.80 with the mitsu turbo at 15psi. The changes now are the Garrett and a pair of M/H slicks. I was about to buy larger injectors but I think they are not neccesary.

Iīll be running this car next weekend at a local event so any input you guys have is welcome :).

Thanks!

http://turbosmx.com/fotosforo/phantomy2.jpg

The base fuel tunes from Mopar and others are always very fat from the factory. Is your reg a 1 to 1 boost type. If so this is adding fuel above and beyond the stock tune also. You can always dial it down. :thumb:

We've seen many SRT's run in the 9's on all of the STG'd cars. It's for cooling AND warranty purposes. But it is also free HP just waiting to be tapped. Just last week the dyno's came out on the new turbo Mazda 3. The afr's drop to 9.3!!!!!!!!!

FYI,
Marion

TurboGLH
11-20-2006, 03:38 PM
The base fuel tunes from Mopar and others are always very fat from the factory. Is your reg a 1 to 1 boost type. If so this is adding fuel above and beyond the stock tune also. You can always dial it down. :thumb:

We've seen many SRT's run in the 9's on all of the STG'd cars. It's for cooling AND warranty purposes. But it is also free HP just waiting to be tapped. Just last week the dyno's came out on the new turbo Mazda 3. The afr's drop to 9.3!!!!!!!!!

FYI,
Marion

Just a quick note, the older cars (including the one being discussed) came factory with a 1 to 1 reg, the computers are cal'd for it and they would run dangerously lean without.

Mario_V
11-22-2006, 02:28 AM
This past weekend I ran the car and was a bit dissapointed.

The first run I left the fuel pressure at the stock 55psi, the wideband readings were on the 9s in every gear, this was with 18psi of boost. The car ran a 15.3 with a 2.6s 60ft, I let off in third because I heard pinging.

Second run, fuel pressure was set to 50psi, the car still ran rich with wideband readings in the 10s. This run timing was set to the stock mexican 6° that is indicated in the vacuum diagram on the hood, so I dialed 6° from the 10° I was running. This run was against an SRT-4, his time was 14.50, my time 14.52 with a 2.0 60ft and trap speed of 91mph, no pinging this time.

Third run, set the fuel pressure down to 47psi, this last reduction made the wideband readings totally lean at a constant 16.0:1 at idle, this isnīt normal right?. Before this readings at idle were around 14.7:1. Somehow this pressure reduction caused more turbolag but the readings at WOT were better at 11.3:1.

In all runs boost was at 18-19psi of boost with the T2 Garrett wich is what dissapoints me, that is too much boost for that speed. Before with the Mitsu and only 15psi my car had the same trap speeds! not better times, but that is because now my car has slicks.

What could be causing pinging only in third? The car had some race gas. Before I could ran the car at 12° even without race gas and it wouldnīt ping. Also when I was timing the car, the mark on the tranny was not very stable, it moved around +-2°.

Ondonti
11-22-2006, 05:38 AM
13.2 is optimum for an all motor car. 12.1 is optimum for a boosted car.

Optimum = most HP, not the safest mode for everyday conditions like bad fuel and high ambient temps.

Im not sure where you guys are getting these numberes because they dont apply to real life.
Many NA cars like mid/high 12's..........with a turbo car it all depends on what kind of fuel you are using (besides every other little difference caused by your setup) so to quote numbers is a joke.

mario03SRT
11-22-2006, 02:40 PM
Im not sure where you guys are getting these numberes because they dont apply to real life.
Many NA cars like mid/high 12's..........with a turbo car it all depends on what kind of fuel you are using (besides every other little difference caused by your setup) so to quote numbers is a joke.

It's not a joke but the rule of thumb for AFR's. Yes, the results of the tune speaks for itself on each car and it's mods. A high compression NA car will like it richer just like a boosted car. But you have to have a point of reference to begin from and associate actual results to. If you care to research those #'s are well documented.

FYI,
Marion

mario03SRT
11-22-2006, 02:51 PM
This past weekend I ran the car and was a bit dissapointed.

The first run I left the fuel pressure at the stock 55psi, the wideband readings were on the 9s in every gear, this was with 18psi of boost. The car ran a 15.3 with a 2.6s 60ft, I let off in third because I heard pinging.

Second run, fuel pressure was set to 50psi, the car still ran rich with wideband readings in the 10s. This run timing was set to the stock mexican 6° that is indicated in the vacuum diagram on the hood, so I dialed 6° from the 10° I was running. This run was against an SRT-4, his time was 14.50, my time 14.52 with a 2.0 60ft and trap speed of 91mph, no pinging this time.

Third run, set the fuel pressure down to 47psi, this last reduction made the wideband readings totally lean at a constant 16.0:1 at idle, this isnīt normal right?. Before this readings at idle were around 14.7:1. Somehow this pressure reduction caused more turbolag but the readings at WOT were better at 11.3:1.

In all runs boost was at 18-19psi of boost with the T2 Garrett wich is what dissapoints me, that is too much boost for that speed. Before with the Mitsu and only 15psi my car had the same trap speeds! not better times, but that is because now my car has slicks.

What could be causing pinging only in third? The car had some race gas. Before I could ran the car at 12° even without race gas and it wouldnīt ping. Also when I was timing the car, the mark on the tranny was not very stable, it moved around +-2°.

After a fuel pressure setting change it takes some time for the ECU to make it's fuel trim corrections. I'm sure the car will stoich 14.7) with that fuel pressure setting. You need to cruise it some for it to make a correction. But it has no effect on WOT runs as the ECU goes from closed to open loop and runs a different set of timing and fuel parameters.

Generally the turbo will spool faster with a lean condition not become laggy.

If you can, run a calibration on the WB sensor, I have the LM-1 and it can recal and is recommended over time and changes in climate etc. So that is a reality check that I'd go thru before going any further. Also a good boost leak check may reveal some problems also.

That timing level seems very low to me and goint to that extreme is probably masking another problem. I know what you mean about the timing tic mark being less than steady.

Marion

contraption22
11-22-2006, 11:01 PM
Generally the turbo will spool faster with a lean condition not become laggy.


Marion


Generally yes... but not always. Remember there are extremes in either direction. A lean condition can also cause poor spoolup!

Mario_V
01-10-2007, 12:22 AM
It is been a while since I used the Phantom. I started to tune it again. Look at this video showing the wideband readings with 17-19psi on the Garrett. Remember this is with stock injectors, stock ECU, fuel pressure at 45psi and all that is described in the first post:

http://turbosmx.com/videos/ph0a100.wmv

Second video Iīm brake torquing it. See how it is very lean when a first start to step on the gas, and when I release the brake and go WOT it is rich again:

http://turbosmx.com/videos/phbraketorque.wmv