NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

[Comp461]

NHRA checklist for Stock Eliminator.
First, I am so enjoying reading through this forum. This place was much like the diesel forums, a great place to gather and meet friends. I am learning so much with just the search button.

I know that many of the answers have changed over time. I am going full tilt with running one of these cars in Stock Eliminator. Our girl is aging out of her Jr dragster. I have a Top Dragster I considered putting her in, but I do not want to waste her skill on a button car. The talent it takes to race off the bottom bulb on a foot brake is something that 90% of the current racer will never master.


I have received a lot of help already from a few members here, and I can not express my gratitude to those individuals. I have raced in many NHRA categories from the very advanced, to stock.
So here are some items I'm looking for answers to. I have spent more than a few hours on the phone with NHRA, and without telling them too much, learned the firm boundary and also the gray areas and the ambiguous areas.


1st I want to make the car repeatable. I believe that the starting line is critical. It is important to have the RPM and boost exactly the same every time she lets off the foot brake. How is everyone setting up a 2 step ( starting line rev limiter)? What ignition box? I will use a brake pressure switch off the master cylinder to trigger it. I also want to limit boost off starting line to have a smooth repeatable launch. Not necessarily low boost but have it exactly the same each time. I will eventually go to a Holley ECM. If these cars are as fast as I believe, then it's critical to not kill the NHRA HP factor of 165 hp on 1989 non-intercooled 2.5. Rather than killing the top-end performance and critical MPH needed in bracket racing. My thoughts are somehow limit boost for a given time frame.
thanks in advance for the answers

[Fenderbass]

Hey brother. It's super awesome that you are doing this for your daughter. I hope to do the same for my girls when they get older.

There are 2-stage and low/high boost functions in MpTune. It would require you to install MPFlash on the ecu. I'm not sure if the rules allow tampering with the ECU, but rules in racing are more like ballpark suggestions anyways :-)

Another option would be to run a dual stage boost controller and left-foot brake...

[Comp461]

The rules are wide open on ECM. I will be changing to a Holley Terminator or Holley HP as I get time. I am going to put a pressure switch on the master cylinder. This will activate the 2 step and hopefully a boost limiter. What that boost and RPM is I could use some guidance on. For that matter I'm told that using VP C10 I can run over 20 lbs of boost on the run.


I am trying to get the car from the northwest to the DFW area so that she can run the Division 4 event in OK city in 2 weeks. If I can get all the pieces to fall together, she will earn a grade point, allowing us to enter the NHRA Dallas National event the next week.


I am afraid of going to the divisional event without data and running too fast.
Here are the rules of stock HP as I understand them.
The average of all the runs, both qualifying and eliminations for that motor factor are compiled at the end of the season. If that average is faster than .80 under the index, 5 hp will be added to that engine. This is not just your runs but everyone using that engine.
If you ever run faster than 1.20 seconds under the factor is hit on Monday following the event.
There is one place where you can let it all hang out. The "BIG GO" The U.S. Nationals in Indy. This event is the biggest event for stockers and super stock.
The index for AF/S is 13.85 and weight / Horsepower is 13 lbs to 15.99
The 1989 2.5 turbo is factored at 165 hp.
I'm working with a 1989 Plymouth sundance at 13 lbs per hp the racing weight is 2145 + 170 lbs for the standard weight of the driver or 2315 lbs. We will be required to go across the scales every run.
Here are a few pictures of Hannah. She is not my daughter, but kind of like a granddaughter. I have been helping her and her uncle who is raising her for several years. She has some crazy hair colors lol, but she is a great kid. She is so focused on racing and sadly she will age out of Jr racing.
https://i.imgur.com/OUNrjdvl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xDWY5KTl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wJGIuPtl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZEk281Vl.jpg

[wheming]

Greg,
Do you know if this car already has any ECU mods? The popular mod is to modify the ECU so that you either replace chips, or can reflash the ECU itself.
So, if in fact this type of mod is already done, you may be able to run a modified calibration that includes a 2 step. You would however need to pick from the available switch inputs to trigger the 2step, of which the brake switch is one. This is what I use myself.
There are a few settings you would have to set up within the cal, but it is pretty simple.
For a basically stock 2.5 T1, with stock ATX and converter, you should probably try to target 2500 rpm, (maybe even under) as with the Mitsu turbo there isn't much lag.

If the car doesn't have a modified ECU, then for now you would need an aftermarket 2 step, or try to source a flashable ECU for sale. I don't have an extra presently, but I may have one in a few more weeks.

Sent from my KB2005 using Tapatalk

[Comp461]

Great information. I believe the car is prepped. Reverse VB and convertor. The break switch would be great if I can adjust it. In clutch car be call it “ switch”. It’s the amount of time the staging limiter is dropped before the total engagement or in this case release of break. So the stock ECM can do this. Great. I’ve enjoyed and learned a lot reading all of you answers to treads over the years. With this little project I’m working on going the distance with this platform in NHRA stock.
I’ve been fortunate enough to have been a part of training this young lady in my craft. Hannah is one of the best pure drivers I’ve ever worked with. She is super consistent on the tree. She also understands playing the stripe. I didn’t want to put her in a transbrake car with a delay box. Those things make make ever almost equal. She is a bottom bulb racer and I’m going to run her in a full season next year if these cars will preform like it appears they have in the past.
The secret is to not kill the motor factor and qualify in a good spot. Except. The “ big go”. If I can get it to run I want her to be number 1 qualifier. Well thanks for the info. I’m sure we will talk more.

[wheming]

If you have a PC, laptop or desktop with MPTune installed and setup (free software available here on the T-M EFI Tuning forum)
I could show you a few things about the 2 step (called Staging Limiter here).

While the entry conditions allow the Staging Limiter to be enabled, it doesn't actively engage until the RPM reaches the setpoint. There is a "reset" RPM also for it to stop spark cutting. So say 2500 rpm the staging Limiter activates, and you select 2350 rpm for it to stop limiting. (And again it activates once 2500 rpm is achieved as long as the enable switch is still engaged - the brake switch)

When you go to leave/launch and you remove your foot from the brake, there is a vehicle speed setting that will turn off the staging Limiter. You can try different MPH settings to see what works best. If there is some wheel spin at launch, then it basically will achieve that mph instantly, unless set to a higher value. Since the speed sensor is on the transaxle, wheel spin shows as a false vehicle speed.

This launch control, staging Limiter, and anti-lag timing is all built into the latest Turbonator based calibrations. There are several stock cals that have been converted to the Turbonator code template, so you can have these features with a stock or basically stock cal without having to change to a standalone. It has its shortcomings though, as this is 30+ year old technology, but it works pretty well for a wide variety of power levels.



Sent from my KB2005 using Tapatalk

[Fenderbass]

I can't speak much to drag racing on this level, but MPTune is a wonderful program that's easy to learn and use. Every time I've gotten stuck, a bunch of the people in this forum were quick to help.

As a person who who works full time with teenagers, I so appreciate what you are doing with Hannah. The world needs more guys like you. Thank you.

- Chris

[Comp461]

This is what I like about this forum, Members freely giving valuable knowledge. I am anticipating a full-on stock. I would love to have anyone involved that wants to be. A full NHRA schedule involves your best 3 out of your first 5 national Events and your best 5 out of your first 8 divisionals. I plan on Hannah running the U.S Nationals, Vegas Divisional, and Nationals as they bracket the SEMA show and Dallas National event and divisional. With this schedule, it would be great to meet some of you at these events

- - - Updated - - -

This is what I like about this forum, Members freely giving valuable knowledge. I am anticipating a full-on stock. I would love to have anyone involved that wants to be. A full NHRA schedule involves your best 3 out of your first 5 national Events and your best 5 out of your first 8 divisionals. I plan on Hannah running the U.S Nationals, Vegas Divisional, and Nationals as they bracket the SEMA show and Dallas National event and divisional. With this schedule, it would be great to meet some of you at these events

[Comp461]

If you have a PC, laptop or desktop with MPTune installed and setup (free software available here on the T-M EFI Tuning forum)
I could show you a few things about the 2 step (called Staging Limiter here).

While the entry conditions allow the Staging Limiter to be enabled, it doesn't actively engage until the RPM reaches the setpoint. There is a "reset" RPM also for it to stop spark cutting. So say 2500 rpm the staging Limiter activates, and you select 2350 rpm for it to stop limiting. (And again it activates once 2500 rpm is achieved as long as the enable switch is still engaged - the brake switch)

How close together can you put these values , does it only cut spark or fuel as well. If only spark than it will be loud but drive the charger. I have a lot of experience with the Holley system( not tuning , but systems) If I can make this car race and win with the old system than that a cool challenge .

When you go to leave/launch and you remove your foot from the brake, there is a vehicle speed setting that will turn off the staging Limiter. You can try different MPH settings to see what works best. If there is some wheel spin at launch, then it basically will achieve that mph instantly, unless set to a higher value. Since the speed sensor is on the transaxle, wheel spin shows as a false vehicle speed.

This launch control, staging Limiter, and anti-lag timing is all built into the latest Turbonator based calibrations. There are several stock cals that have been converted to the Turbonator code template, so you can have these features with a stock or basically stock cal without having to change to a standalone. It has its shortcomings though, as this is 30+ year old technology, but it works pretty well for a wide variety of power levels.



Sent from my KB2005 using Tapatalk

I have used drag radials and my experience with them is that they hook or not, no in-between, this causes a hook and spin that is hard on drive line. I have tried biases slicks and letting them spin and then come under the car some what like a clutch.

I have seen that there are two engine listed for most of these cars. a Non-intercooled 2.5 liter NHRA rated at 165 hp And a intercooled 2.2 liter NHRA rated at 183 hp. I would like over the next winter to building a pair of long blocks with good rods and pistons. How much power will these stock short blocks hold. Not sure the stock turbo size will make more power than a good set of reworked rods will hold. But today a good set of rods is not much more that reworking stock rods. I did notice a 4 bolt block or at least caps.


https://i.imgur.com/wh63E3Tl.png

https://i.imgur.com/JQFGt6gl.png

to anyone that wants to look at all of these classes here is the NHRA site , The engines are under engine blueprint and cars under stock cars
NHRARacer.com (http://www.nhraracer.com/)

[wheming]

You could try different values to see how close an on/off gap will still work properly. I don't remember what the default RPM spread is, but probably around 250 rpm or more.

In part of the configuration setup, you can select either spark cut or fuel cut. There is a option for the more violent Ban-Bang limiter. (I haven't used it personally.)

Sent from my KB2005 using Tapatalk

[T1 woodywagon]

I have used drag radials and my experience with them is that they hook or not, no in-between, this causes a hook and spin that is hard on drive line. I have tried biases slicks and letting them spin and then come under the car some what like a clutch.

I have seen that there are two engine listed for most of these cars. a Non-intercooled 2.5 liter NHRA rated at 165 hp And a intercooled 2.2 liter NHRA rated at 183 hp. I would like over the next winter to building a pair of long blocks with good rods and pistons. How much power will these stock short blocks hold. Not sure the stock turbo size will make more power than a good set of reworked rods will hold. But today a good set of rods is not much more that reworking stock rods. I did notice a 4 bolt block or at least caps.


https://i.imgur.com/wh63E3Tl.png

https://i.imgur.com/JQFGt6gl.png

to anyone that wants to look at all of these classes here is the NHRA site , The engines are under engine blueprint and cars under stock cars
NHRARacer.com (http://www.nhraracer.com/)

Is there an approved rod for the engine you plan to build ?

[Comp461]

Yes NHRA has an approved rod, I acquired a 2.5 and 2.2 crank, having both nitrated. I Also sourced a few Unground lobe cam cores. CP and JE both have the specs on a piston and NHRA will approve it if you ask and go through the process.. Who else builds pistons that people have used.

I have heard a few things on the turbo. The only spec on the engine blue print is the inducer and wheel size. I talked to a few in NHRA tech and they are lost lol.
I need a few head casting if anyone has them or complete engine cores

[wheming]

Yes NHRA has an approved rod, I acquired a 2.5 and 2.2 crank, having both nitrated. I Also sourced a few Unground lobe cam cores. CP and JE both have the specs on a piston and NHRA will approve it if you ask and go through the process.. Who else builds pistons that people have used.

I have heard a few things on the turbo. The only spec on the engine blue print is the inducer and wheel size. I talked to a few in NHRA tech and they are lost lol.
I need a few head casting if anyone has them or complete engine coresWhere did you find "a few unground lobe cam cores"??
I had searched for some years ago and didn't have any luck.

Sent from my KB2005 using Tapatalk

[T1 woodywagon]

I don't think your right about there being an approved rod for the 2.2/2.5 specifically. I looked on the approved rod list and didn't see one.

[CdnShelby]

Hey Just checking in to see if you made any progress with your project?

I have raced Stock and Super Stock for years. Last winter as a project we took a street driven '85 Town & Country wagon and prepped it for D/FS with a strict budget and kept a priority on not taking away any street manners.

I lent it to a friend for the NHRA National Open and we hit the index on street tires. Lots of tweaking could be done to make it run comfortably under the index. Was a fun project and it is resting patiently waiting for one of my kids to take the wheel this summer or next.

Love to hear more on your project

[Comp461]

Well, the year has been CRAZY ONE. We have been covered up on a land speed project and I have been on the road racing with a Pro Stock Team. The shadow car just never worked out; it was over 2000 miles away. so, I acquired parts and a 1984 turbo Daytona. The car is all there but it's been setting for a long time. I noticed the intake manifold is tiny. So I can streight this car to manybe a 86 on specs , what is the good and the bad

[GLHS60]

1984 was the first year of the 2.2 Turbo with its 1 year electronics and pneumatic waste gate.

1985 moved to somewhat improved electronics featuring an electronic waste gate.

1986 had better electronics with a larger diameter distributor than the 1984-85.

Pre. 1986 2.2 Engines contained HD press pin connecting rods, Turbo and N/A

1984 and 1985 Turbo Engines ran a Bathtub or a G head with small dish pistons.

1986 Turbo Engines contained Light Weight pressed pin rods with large dish pistons.

11 MM head bolts and 8 bolt cranks were a running change over 10 mm and 6 bolts.

1986 and newer Turbo Engines all had these but only late 1985's received them.

All 1986 and newer Engines used a Swirl or Fast burn cyl. head to match large dish pistons.

1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987 T-I intake manifolds are also comparable.

1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987 T-I Garrett draw through Turbos are comparable.

The 1984 wastegate is unique but 1985, 1986 and 1987 T-I are compatible.

All 2.2 T-I and T-II exhaust manifolds are comparable but 1987 up have a notch.

This notch can easily be ground into an earlier manifold if required.

The 1987 and 1987 Shelby GLHS Engines were stock T-I with intercooler.

The 1987 Shelby Z with 5 speed was the first true T-II Engine.

These featured steel crank, full floating rods, floating pistons and 2 piece intake.

1988 T-I, the only 2.2 to run the smaller Mitsu turbo with blow through 1 piece intake.

It ran L-W pressed pin rods with matching pressed pin pistons.

Thanks
Randy



Well, the year has been CRAZY ONE. We have been covered up on a land speed project and I have been on the road racing with a Pro Stock Team. The shadow car just never worked out; it was over 2000 miles away. so, I acquired parts and a 1984 turbo Daytona. The car is all there but it's been setting for a long time. I noticed the intake manifold is tiny. So I can streight this car to manybe a 86 on specs , what is the good and the bad

[Comp461]

thanks so much for the detailed reply.

I go the car home; I have a lot of work ahead of me.

I have the Holley Terminator ECM so that fixes the electronics
I need to fix a little rust in the floor pans, a window was broken out on drivers' side.
The motor turns over free.

Here is a big question what the difference in a turbo and a turbo Z is the 26 lbs is the difference in the car being a natural B car or a Natural A car.


https://i.imgur.com/B64P1cKl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9a460hbl.jpg

[GLHS60]

Turbo Z is a trim package with ground effects etc.

The early ones had Turbo Z embossed in the rear bumper cover.

Allegedly Nissan complained about the Z so they stopped using it.

Same Engine and transmission as Turbo, either auto or 5 sp.

5 speed transaxle is the weak link.

1987 5 sp was vastly improved.

Thanks
Randy

[Comp461]

so a few decals and maybe ground effects. I can use any 3-speed automatic transmission from the manufacture. I have been looking at the half shafts and CV joints as to the best ones. I'm not sure how much power this motor can make with the NHRA limitations. anyone have an idea

I will be using NHRA spec fuel ( SR18 ) which is around 120 octane

I plan on fully utilizing all of the abilities of the Holley ECM. One of those is absolute wastegate control. I will be able to tailor boost to the most optimal and smooth launch and raise boost down track for maximal MPH in the traps. I will build a header and mount the turbo on this.

So, what you recommend for the transmission. I will use a Coan convertor.

I would like to know what your feel the power band will be.
With camshaft I feel I can raise the RPM level as much as possible and match it with convertor. What gear ratios are available also
Thanks in advance, I have a lot to accomplish on this car and any help would be greatly appreciated.

I do advanced engine development but this one has so many many limits of what you can and can't do

[GLHS60]

Early 6 bolt cranks require a 3 bolt flexplate and converter.

Later 8 bolt cranks require a 4 bolt flexplate and converter.

Pump and pump drives don't interchange between early and late trans.

The later 1986 to 1989 3 speed is far superior to the early unit.

You'll no doubt want a non lockup Turbo version.

If you can't use a 1986 to 1988 crank you need a custom converter.

It needs to be 3 bolt on the flexplate side and 4 bolt on the pump side.

This is one of the oddity's we deal with when upgrading.

The later trans has superior larger inner spline axles.

Any K type car from 1987 to 1990 will fit and work well.

K type includes Daytona, Shadow, Aries, etc,

Anything but an L body or minivan.

There are several final drive ratios available:

2.86 ring gear and .91, 1.96 and 1.22 transfer gears.

Lots of great info here!!

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/

Thanks
Randy

[GLHS60]

Stock exhaust manifold vs header !!

The fastest guys run both and are very close in power.

I don't think the header guys have any advantage.

One of our ongoing debates when the forum was more active!!

I would try a manifold first for cost and simplicity.

Our Engines have a limited cyl head so typically we make more torque that HP.

Only 2 heads were used, the early G style and the later Swirl or Fastburn.

Most of the fast guys run the early G style head as it flows better.

It's also a bit less detonation prone which is the enemy.

As you will be using it you will require matching small dish pistons.

That's if NHRA is fussy on compression ratio, which I assume they are.

Later swirl heads 1986 and newer require a larger dish piston.

There are a few guys running A-413 automatics, they probably know the latest trans info.

The 3.0 minivan and Neon 3 speed auto are basically the same with some good parts.

Well respected member Wayne Hemingway runs one in his brilliant 11 sec minivan.

Well respected member Warren Stramer runs one in his brilliant 8 sec Laser.

Both will no doubt have lots of good trans info to share.

Neither are class racers but are a wealth of knowledge.

Thanks
Randy

[GLHS60]

As far as power band goes its hard to get high RPM power with our heads.

With stock cams retarding the cam does move it to the right.

I guess you can run any cam in stock??

The early cams used slider rocker arms and 1988 and up were rollers.

I don't know if you have to run the original slider or not.

The slider is actually better for performance use in my opinion.

All lifters or lash adjusters are hydraulic and tend to get air entrained.

Some use later PT lifters as they have a bleed hole.

They are shorter so they require washers to shim up the difference.

I don't know the NHRA lifter rules but some make the originals solid.

That's a lot of trial and error but can solve the high rpm air entrainment.

We'll be following along and offering any info you might need.

Hopefully well learn from your legal stocker too !!


Thanks
Randy

[Comp461]

Thanks for the information so quick.
so here are some of the answers and questions

1st NHRA considers the rockers just that rockers, so I can use either. I totally understand on the slider being and advantage.
On lifters, I can bottom them out and use shims to make it a solid lifter cam. I would have to take that into account when I grind the cam.

on the convertor I will look for the later cranks, but I can get a flywheel and convertor built to whatever I need.

on compression you have to use the gasket and deck clearance which is usually tighter that production

here is the spec

https://i.imgur.com/TgveI8zl.png

[GLHS60]

Sounds like you have a lifter plan already!!

I can't read the specs as it says "zonks you've taken a wrong turn"??

It hardly matters as I'm old with weak eyesight and a computer dumdum.

The 6 bolt cranks were normally O.K. in regular service.

They were up graded to 8 as some early IMSA Engines had bolt loosening issues.

The later crank means the later trans and converter all match.

The newer stuff any make maintenance etc. much easier.

And, a larger differential with larger inner axle splines

Our Engines don't really have much squish as delivered.

Pistons are often about .018" down hole and factory head gaskets compress to about .068"

Some of us deck the block so the pistons stand proud as the .068" is still too much.

Cometic are available in different thickness, one of the few non stock things available to us.

But I assume you will be blueprinting your Engine as per NHRA rules.

As to head casting #'s, 4105445 is a G head for 1983-84 Engines.

4323287 is another G head for 1985 Engines,

Essentially the same but is reamed for 11 mm head bolts with an extra A/C boss.

All later Swirl or Fastburn heads are 4105782 casting.

No doubt you will be using the 445 head, same casting for Turbo and N/A.

Turbo valves were Inconel buT you'll no doubt be using aftermarket.

When you strip the Engine note the oil pump and its block hole.

They are a huge mismatch so we normally port the block to match.

Thanks
Randy

PS: Richard Holdener is doing some 1984 2.2 Turbo testing on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLM8JsB6QR-TYuY6QvrAjpJOMfduM_rrn8

David Vizard is testing and porting a G head for him on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVNsoMsJKqg

[Comp461]

here are the head castings that are approved
Cylinder Head Castings
A=4105445,4323287 B=4027163,4027593,4323302, 4448308, 4772576

here are the approved manifolds 4323280,4105467
do these manifolds really suck as bad as they look


HP Disp Cl Type Height Vol Valves Cam Lift Gasket Springs



146 135 .008 Dished .175 8.0 cc 1598/1394 445/445 .068 Outer wDamper

will a later block and crank work with these head castings
I can use any block

[cordes]

The later block and crank will work with any head. Yes, the manifolds are as bad as they look.

[GLHS60]

The first two head #'s are known 1984-85 2.2 cyl heads but the others seem more like LA numbers??

Correct, those intakes are a suck through design as opposed to the later blow through design.

The Turbo seal must be a 4 piece carbon style to prevent oil ingestion.

This is because the throttle body location keeps the Turbo under Engine vacuum.

There are 2 distinct Engine family's:

The first ran from 1981 to 1988 and had a fuel pump block off plate and square tooth timing belt.

The 1989 and newer are referred to as common blocks as both the 2.2 and 2.5 shared blocks.

Prior 1986- 1988 2.5's were a tall deck design featuring a taller deck and of no concern here.

The common blocks had a stronger block without fuel pump mount but a round tooth timing belt.

This is important as cranks between common blocks and earlier Engines don't interchange.

The crank snouts and sprockets are different so folks don't try to fit the wrong timing belt.

All common block cranks are 8 bolt and if you use one you need its matching parts.

EG: crank, cam and intermediate shaft sprockets along with crank seal retainers.

As mentioned, the 8 valve heads are interchangeable and fit any 8 valve block.

There was a Turbo III 16 valve DOHC 2.2 for a couple of years of no concern here.

Thanks
Randy



here are the head castings that are approved
Cylinder Head Castings
A=4105445,4323287 B=4027163,4027593,4323302, 4448308, 4772576

here are the approved manifolds 4323280,4105467
do these manifolds really suck as bad as they look


HP Disp Cl Type Height Vol Valves Cam Lift Gasket Springs



146 135 .008 Dished .175 8.0 cc 1598/1394 445/445 .068 Outer wDamper

will a later block and crank work with these head castings
I can use any block

[Comp461]

looks like i need a common block and .2.2 crank
I found pistons on the NHRA list but no rods
135 84-85 All Turbo 2.2 Federal-Mogul 532P and Ross 7594


how strong are the rods, I can put bolt's in them,

[GLHS60]

I don't think the FM 532P's are available any more.

They were a nice cast piston but replaced with a Hypereutectic

Hypers have a terrible reputation in our Engines due to cracking.

Any hint of detonation and away they go with no second chance.

The used OEM pistons stand up better than replacement hypers.

Guys run Hypers in other Engines successfully but not ours.

Ross forged would be the way to go if possible.

We have 3 stock rods.

1981-85 were all HD with a pressed pin.

1986-88 were almost all LW with a pressed pin.

1987 T-II Intercooled were the first HD full floating rods.

All intercooled 2.2's and 2.5 T-I also used the full floating rods.

LW rods were also used in all non turbo Engines from 1986 on.

We don't suffer with many rod failures due to weak rods or bolts.

I'd be tempted to run the Light Weight rods in a 2.2 stocker but most don't.

LA rod bolts fit our rods but are usually sold in sets of 8, not 4.

Thanks
Randy


looks like i need a common block and .2.2 crank
I found pistons on the NHRA list but no rods
135 84-85 All Turbo 2.2 Federal-Mogul 532P and Ross 7594


how strong are the rods, I can put bolt's in them,

[Comp461]

just talked to Ross and they still make all of the pistons.

I am trying to source a block and crank.

I have a box I am saving everything I am removing according to the rules and guessing on what it weighs

[GLHS60]

Sounds like you are off to a good start!!

Some member must have a block and crank available?

I have several but we are many thousands of miles apart.

2.2 Turbo's were all Intercooled versions from 1989 and on.

The intercooled 2.2's were the only Engines to run a heavier steel crank.

Most certainly overkill for your and most Engine combinations.

Our cast cranks are extremely tough, breakage is virtually unheard of.

All our cranks feature a rolled radius, this no doubt increases durability.

But, 2.5 Turbo blocks are very common as well as 2.2 TBI cranks.

Turbo and TBI blocks are the same except for the Turbo oil drain.

TBI blocks have the oil drain boss, it just needs to be drilled out.

A 1989 and newer complete 2.2 used Engine might be the way.

This way you get all the incidentals that are Common Block.

There's a bit more than I previously mentioned:

Oil pan, timing belt pensioner come to mind.

Just a bit more info to consider.

Thanks
Randy

[4 l-bodies]

just talked to Ross and they still make all of the pistons.

I stopped using Ross years ago. They were longer than six months out on lead time for pistons. That seems ridiculous to me. Diamond has probably made pistons for all our applications, but I stopped using them too. I don't think their CNC operators can read, or have a serious case of ADHD, as about 90% of my piston orders from them had something wrong with them. Last time they couldn't even get the quantity right! The time before that my 8v pistons had Lotus 16V reliefs cut in them! Time before that the oiler for pins was not in the correct location. On another order the piston skirt was like .250" thick! Pistons were like 350g overweight! There response was you didn't order the light weight option! WTF? Their attention to the details is horrible. Then to top it off they're stupidly expensive too.
I now buy all my pistons from JE. They're the lightest and reasonable in lead time. Zero issues with them.
Todd

[GLHS60]

Curious if JE is an approved NHRA piston vendor for 2.2's?

Thanks
Randy

[Comp461]

Curious if JE is an approved NHRA piston vendor for 2.2's?

Thanks
Randy

No JE is not. I talked to Ed at Ross, I use to race against him. He said 12 weeks.

so I have spent the better part of the last two days removing and cleaning.

I need floor pans and I will uses tubing to firm it up with a 6 point cage.
where can I get floor pans for these

https://i.imgur.com/RTBVRnGl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FkFqnFul.jpg



what is this , i have got to wiring yet

https://i.imgur.com/IN80mObl.jpg


do they make not AC non-Power steering brackets?



Thanks everyone for the help.


I am having more fun with this than my top dragster build

[cordes]

Connector you showed is the diagnostic port.

Non AC brackets are readily available. You can just remove the power steering bracket and run a manual rack if you’re so inclined. A lot of guys just loop the PS lines and call it a day, but I think that’s too hard on the column and associated pieces after all these years.

[GLHS60]

Best of luck on the pistons!!

I don't think anyone makes replacement floor pans.

Someone mentioned early Mustang pans can be trimmed to fit??

That looks like the baro read solenoid??

There are non A/C alternator brackets??

Some just remove the P/S pump and brackets.

They usually loop the lines together so the rack doesn't leak.

I think there might be a manual rack available from another K car.

If there is, the coupler usually needs replacing as well.

There used to be a youtube on gutting a P/S rack.

Hopefully someone else has better answers!

Thanks
Randy




No JE is not. I talked to Ed at Ross, I use to race against him. He said 12 weeks.

so I have spent the better part of the last two days removing and cleaning.

I need floor pans and I will uses tubing to firm it up with a 6 point cage.
where can I get floor pans for these

https://i.imgur.com/RTBVRnGl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FkFqnFul.jpg



what is this , i have got to wiring yet

https://i.imgur.com/IN80mObl.jpg


do they make not AC non-Power steering brackets?



Thanks everyone for the help.


I am having more fun with this than my top dragster build

[Comp461]

OK I am ordering pistons. NHRA rules say up to .080 over max. What can these little blocks bore to. I was thinking .060. I was going to pull the trigger on a set, they were about $100 bill each.
What head gaskets are available for these. Hope Cometic makes one. Total deck is .068 stock gasket and .008 deck. so total is .076 if I zero deck it.

[GLHS60]

The anecdotal thinking is .060" is max.

Probably due to that's the largest ever offered in the past.

I have an old Hot Rod 2.2 book that had info on thr old IMSA 2.2's

There was mention of a 3.5" bore but I believe it mentioned furnace brazing.

Cometic does, or at least did offer 2.2 gaskets in custom thicknesses.

I've never used one but someone on here will no doubt speak up.

Factory MP gaskets were always the go to but are no longer available.

As they compressed at .068" I ran my my pistons "proud" to get .035 squish.

You need to conform to NHRA, so my experience is of little value.

Thanks
Randy

PS: The one guy who sonic checked blocks is Warren Stramer.

Any of his threads are well worth reading, he's on another level.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?49147-Laser-XE-coming-back&highlight=warren+stramer

[GLHS60]

This thread has info on a manual steering rack.

Thanks
Randy
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?1504-Manual-Steering-Coupler...&highlight=manual+steering+conversion

[Comp461]

cool, that is incredible. what about the differential in these? I will not be making the big power with the NHRA limitations, but I would like a spool or posi

[Comp461]

I thought I would show you a Rampage I worked on last summer

https://i.imgur.com/9zhudAVl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WxVR3h1l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KOaOhlRl.jpg

[GLHS60]

Man, that's a cool Rampage !!!

I'm straining my eyes trying to see what it's running.

Looks like some version of an LS Engine from what I can see??

Must be built for a top speed event would be my guess.

Thanks
Randy



I thought I would show you a Rampage I worked on last summer

https://i.imgur.com/9zhudAVl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WxVR3h1l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KOaOhlRl.jpg

[GLHS60]

As you can imagine spools are a handful in these FWD cars.

I don't even know if one is available but a few have run welded units.

If welded properly they're strong but have been known to rip the body apart.

No doubt normally reliable axles would become a weak point as well.

There have been some limited slips over the years, mostly Torsen designs.

OBX was the most common but I don't think they are available new anymore.

IIRC they were Neon units that required a spacer to work in an A-413 trans.

Turbos Unleashed have offered some over the years and maybe still do??

I made a few some years back but it was very labor and parts intensive.

Some as simple as a factory 7.5 Ford S spring with select fit axle and pinion gears.

There's a lot of slop in many of the carriers so starting with a good one was important.

Now that I'm old and had a stroke my limited slip days are over.

Thanks
Randy





cool, that is incredible. what about the differential in these? I will not be making the big power with the NHRA limitations, but I would like a spool or posi

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

how badly do you wanna nice transmission?

NEVER been in a car..nos 588 EURO trans

3:69 first gear
4:08 final drive

also brand new in box Quafie LS diff

comes with nos shift cables and a shifter from a daytona and one from a neon

$6500 CDN + shippin'
(today's conversion is $5048 US)

[Comp461]

how badly do you wanna nice transmission?

NEVER been in a car..nos 588 EURO trans

3:69 first gear
4:08 final drive

also brand new in box Quafie LS diff

comes with nos shift cables and a shifter from a daytona and one from a neon

$6500 CDN + shippin'
(today's conversion is $5048 US)

Stock eliminator is limited to 3 speeds unless that car came with more

- - - Updated - - -


As you can imagine spools are a handful in these FWD cars.

I don't even know if one is available but a few have run welded units.

If welded properly they're strong but have been known to rip the body apart.

No doubt normally reliable axles would become a weak point as well.

There have been some limited slips over the years, mostly Torsen designs.

OBX was the most common but I don't think they are available new anymore.

IIRC they were Neon units that required a spacer to work in an A-413 trans.

Turbos Unleashed have offered some over the years and maybe still do??

I made a few some years back but it was very labor and parts intensive.

Some as simple as a factory 7.5 Ford S spring with select fit axle and pinion gears.

There's a lot of slop in many of the carriers so starting with a good one was important.

Now that I'm old and had a stroke my limited slip days are over.

Thanks
Randy

I did Jessie James Monster Garage last year

[Comp461]

did they ever put a 2.2 turbo in a rwd truck

[cordes]

No. Only na Dakotas.

[GLHS60]

Some old A-413 automatic trans info. for reference.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030829020536/http://www.omniturbo.com/Mopar%20Pages/Tranny%20upgrades%20detail.htm

Thanks
Randy

[Comp461]

Some old A-413 automatic trans info. for reference.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030829020536/http://www.omniturbo.com/Mopar%20Pages/Tranny%20upgrades%20detail.htm

Thanks
Randy

The transmission build was a really good read.

I have been taking parts off the car and its really adding up

[Comp461]

I'm can't find a front floorboard. So, what's close.
What axles are best. Again, while I'm not going to be able to have big power due to rules, ever pass will be on the track.
I have a 8620L steel cam core being spun up. all of the UGL core I have are to close on the LSA . the cam I am laying out is a 228 218 on a 118 lsa

[CdnShelby]

Good read guys. Keep up the good work. Great reference for those considering a similar path

[Comp461]

I'm going to use a solid lifter. I can just gut the hydraulic lifter and use shims which I can waterjet out of shim stock. unless there is a better option. I am also considering putting lifter bore bushings in. but that's a completely different story. I am going to get JE to do a NHRA legal stock replacement forged piston

- - - Updated - - -

I'm going to use a solid lifter. I can just gut the hydraulic lifter and use shims which I can waterjet out of shim stock. unless there is a better option. I am also considering putting lifter bore bushings in. but that's a completely different story. I am going to get JE to do a NHRA legal stock replacement forged piston

[CdnShelby]

I hope your project is coming along....on a similar note we were able to set up our 85 town and country for C/FS. My 16 year old daughter made her racing debut this weekend. Ran a best of 15.27....32 under! While she struck out in stock eliminator she did make it 4 rounds in no box....looks like the hook is set....