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Garret
10-27-2006, 03:47 AM
With all these talks of a new intake manifolds being built I thought I'd post mine

THIS is how a manifold should be built

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h221/Badachew/image_00016-1.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h221/Badachew/image_00019.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h221/Badachew/image_00020.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h221/Badachew/image_00022.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h221/Badachew/image_00024.jpg

Same guy also fixed my dipstick tube ;)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h221/Badachew/image_00004.jpg

Plenum has 4.5 litres of volume and is on a 2.2

Rattlesnake
10-27-2006, 06:06 AM
Looks very nice to me I like odd looking things and also looks very efficient-purpose manifold:thumb: . How difficult was it to installed?

Frank
10-27-2006, 06:06 AM
Not bad at all! Very good skills! So are you going to put a bigger throttle body on it? It could really need it!

LynX853
10-27-2006, 06:42 AM
awesome!
now the question is... can you make me one pretty please!?

Clay
10-27-2006, 08:23 AM
any pics of it off the car?? I want to see the bottom half.

Speedeuphoria
10-27-2006, 10:33 AM
looks good the only questionable part is that the tb shoots straight at the back wall of the mani

Garret
10-27-2006, 02:09 PM
Rattlesnake, It installed just as easy as a 1 piece intake as that is what it used to be.

Frank, I put a 52mm TB on there I figure that's best for it for right now

Lynx, Yes I can make you one but It will cost you some money's ;) but I can definatly get one made up for you, PM me

Clay, I forgot to take pictures of it off the car, but basically it's 6 inches of hogged out 1 Piece runners, with all the non runner material cut off it so it's just the runners and the flange. It looks pretty sweet as you can look through it and see the turbo.

tryingbe
10-27-2006, 02:53 PM
Ballpark $$$ figure?

shadow88
10-27-2006, 04:02 PM
looks good the only questionable part is that the tb shoots straight at the back wall of the mani

+1

When the throttle is opened fully, it's my belief that the entire charge system becomes a plenum. It'll benefit from the shorter runners. looks good.

8valves
10-27-2006, 05:30 PM
+1

When the throttle is opened fully, it's my belief that the entire charge system becomes a plenum. It'll benefit from the shorter runners. looks good.

It has been proven time and time again outside of the TD world that a free flowing tract into the plenum area creates more equal distribution and less pressure drop.

On vehicles such as most of ours that don't have the capabilities of tuning each individual cylinder this is a big issue. The volume is nice, but a better transition into the plenum box is critical.

Having said that, you'll still see a large improvement over the stock piece, but there is still room to improve if you so desire.

AM

Garret
10-27-2006, 07:01 PM
maybe next year or something but this is just a manifold we put together at work with maybe a total of 10 minutes worth of thinking into before we started cutting out metal to build it. Took maybe all of what 2 hours to build?

Ball park price figure would be around 150 CDN? or perhaps trade for some other parts

phaxtris
10-27-2006, 07:02 PM
how much more of a 'free flowing' track into the plenum do you want, the TB has a straight shot into the plenum, and is 5" away from the back wall

Speedeuphoria
10-27-2006, 09:23 PM
I would have the box mani then a 2 1/2" elbow out of it w/ the TB, like the modified 1 peices floating around here.

Or even place the TB on the end if clearance/cables arent an issue. Then you would have to have a 90 I/C pipe right before it any way

8valves
10-27-2006, 09:38 PM
how much more of a 'free flowing' track into the plenum do you want, the TB has a straight shot into the plenum, and is 5" away from the back wall

How about a TB location that doesn't just let air hit a solid flat wall 4 inches from it's entrance to the plenum? That is NO room when you're talking airflow velocities that will be at that point.

I want a side inlet, or frontal, but must be blended into the surge tank area with a nice radius or taper. Inside there should be velocity stacks, or a machined floor to give a trumpet style inlet into each individual runner.

AM

turbovanmanČ
10-27-2006, 09:46 PM
Looks good. Any before, after tests, dyno etc?

shelbyplaya
10-28-2006, 01:35 AM
Looks good. Any before, after tests, dyno etc?

garret, dyno or test????? if he dosent melt anything it workds... hahahaha :p

phaxtris
10-28-2006, 05:34 AM
you guys are all trying to over think this, this is not an NA motor, a good portion of its time is spent in boost, where velocitys, etc are not as important, mabye take for example the intake manifold on a 7mgte, tb faces a wall right away, no problems there, people still make upwards of 600whp on them

and velocity stacks! machined floors! LOL, when is the last time you cut apart an intake manifold from any boosted car, you tell me wich have velocity stacks and machined floors, because none of the ones i have ever cut apart have them.

mabye i should even refrence to old v8's, where the carb is generally 5" away from the floor of the intake manifold, and this is a fuel/air charge, not just fuel

im going to repete myself here, this is no NA motor, velocity stacks, all that kind of bullshit makes very little differance

Dave
10-28-2006, 09:38 AM
you guys are all trying to over think this, this is not an NA motor, a good portion of its time is spent in boost, where velocitys, etc are not as important, mabye take for example the intake manifold on a 7mgte, tb faces a wall right away, no problems there, people still make upwards of 600whp on them

Not to dispute what you're saying because I agree, but it's because they have sexy flowing heads.

turbovanmanČ
10-28-2006, 02:32 PM
you guys are all trying to over think this, this is not an NA motor, a good portion of its time is spent in boost, where velocitys, etc are not as important, mabye take for example the intake manifold on a 7mgte, tb faces a wall right away, no problems there, people still make upwards of 600whp on them

and velocity stacks! machined floors! LOL, when is the last time you cut apart an intake manifold from any boosted car, you tell me wich have velocity stacks and machined floors, because none of the ones i have ever cut apart have them.

mabye i should even refrence to old v8's, where the carb is generally 5" away from the floor of the intake manifold, and this is a fuel/air charge, not just fuel

im going to repete myself here, this is no NA motor, velocity stacks, all that kind of bullshit makes very little differance

I have to agree, I am not an engineer but that makes sense. I can't see how tuning will make any different when you've got the hammer down and 30 psi of boost is forcing its way into the intake.

mech1nxh
10-29-2006, 03:31 AM
It has been proven time and time again outside of the TD world that a free flowing tract into the plenum area creates more equal distribution and less pressure drop.

On vehicles such as most of ours that don't have the capabilities of tuning each individual cylinder this is a big issue. The volume is nice, but a better transition into the plenum box is critical.

Having said that, you'll still see a large improvement over the stock piece, but there is still room to improve if you so desire.
AM

agreed, its a nice piece of quick fab work , I like it...



you guys are all trying to over think this, this is not an NA motor, a good portion of its time is spent in boost, where velocitys, etc are not as important, mabye take for example the intake manifold on a 7mgte, tb faces a wall right away, no problems there, people still make upwards of 600whp on them

and thats because the 7mgte has a "symetrical" plenum /tbody..i.e
no turn (and hence less chance for pressure drop)from body to plenum


and velocity stacks! machined floors! LOL, when is the last time you cut apart an intake manifold from any boosted car, you tell me wich have velocity stacks and machined floors, because none of the ones i have ever cut apart have them.

and you probably will never see one...that costs money, however F1 uses them exclusively...


mabye i should even refrence to old v8's, where the carb is generally 5" away from the floor of the intake manifold, and this is a fuel/air charge, not just fuel

lol..yeah carbs needed to be that close to some kind of "device " to promote
even a small modicum of fuel atomization..having said that...I was startled by the performance improvement the first time I added a 1" spacer below a carb to increase "plenum" area....and decrease pressure drop



im going to repete myself here, this is no NA motor, velocity stacks, all that kind of bullshit makes very little differance

please....with all due courtesy....Hillborn fuel injection (circa 1968??)
for small block v/8's had velocity stacks....

opinions submited with respects to all...

BadAssPerformance
10-29-2006, 09:36 AM
....a good portion of its time is spent in boost, where velocitys, etc are not as important... and velocity stacks! machined floors!... LOL, ...

when is the last time you cut apart an intake manifold from any boosted car, you tell me wich have velocity stacks and machined floors, because none of the ones i have ever cut apart have them.

mabye i should even refrence to old v8's, where the carb is generally 5" away from the floor of the intake manifold, and this is a fuel/air charge, not just fuel

im going to repete myself here, this is no NA motor, velocity stacks, all that kind of bullshit makes very little differance

What do you mean? Sue, a turbocharger masks a lot of inefficiencies in an engine with boost, but efficiency in turbocharging is all about better CFM and velocity so you can make more power with the same boost. or even more power with more boost.

When is the last time you cut apart an aftermarker performance turbo manifold? Got pics for us?

Carb V8's? Like you said, this is no NA motor, entirely different needs for a carb.

All the little 'bullshit' as you call it adds up to help tho and if you are making a custom manifold, why not add in all the bells and whistles?

Frank
10-29-2006, 09:49 AM
you guys are all trying to over think this, this is not an NA motor, a good portion of its time is spent in boost, where velocitys, etc are not as important, mabye take for example the intake manifold on a 7mgte, tb faces a wall right away, no problems there, people still make upwards of 600whp on them

and velocity stacks! machined floors! LOL, when is the last time you cut apart an intake manifold from any boosted car, you tell me wich have velocity stacks and machined floors, because none of the ones i have ever cut apart have them.

mabye i should even refrence to old v8's, where the carb is generally 5" away from the floor of the intake manifold, and this is a fuel/air charge, not just fuel

im going to repete myself here, this is no NA motor, velocity stacks, all that kind of bullshit makes very little differance

You have it all wrong man! Go read a physics book, corky's book, or better yet Heywood's book!


If you need to flow 40lb/min of air. A stock intake track (plenum to valve) may cause the turbo to end up at 30psi. A ported one may cause the turbo to end up at 25psi. A moded/tricked out one will cause you to be at 20psi. Which is more desirable? Obviously the later! Why? Cooler temps, lower velocities, etc.

Velocities matter. The higher velocity you have to have to maintain that flow, the more inefficent and hotter the temps get. You want the air low and slow... unless you can do it with good clean stacks where velocity can go up without pressure going up.

When you make the car efficent, not only are you making the car run cooler, but more power can be had from cooler air! Double power adder!



Frank

Frank
10-29-2006, 09:51 AM
By the way!

Excellent job Garrett. While we see some needed changes, you have done an outstanding job and dont let that be taken away.

When you are ready to make another one, I have some change that you could incorporate that I think would make a very large difference.


Frank

Birddog
10-29-2006, 11:11 AM
Nice mani! if I had something bigger than an Omni I'd ask ya to set one up for me!!

Garret
10-29-2006, 11:38 AM
Well post them up guys. Making another manifold is really a "non" issue. But basically based on the other one off intake manifold I've seen I really feel this is one of the best made. I will post up better pictures shortly of the manifold.

Frank
10-29-2006, 01:40 PM
Your overall shape is good. I however would hack off the section of plenum between cylinder #4 and the throttle body. You are just encouraging #4 air and not #1. You want air to shoot into the center of the plenum at the top. The best way to do that is the hack that section off, and put a short 3-4" tube at the top of the plenum with a 90* turn so it is much like the current 1 or 2 piece intake. I personally like the 90* so that it is not only similar to the stock location, but it gives a chance for the air to settle out after the throttle plate.

Now before you attach the pipe to the plenum, flare it to give it something similar to a velocity stack. This will allow uniform deacceleration of the air into the plenum. You will want the pipe to extend into the plenum around 1.5"... so basically you want it to flare on the inside of the intake.

Secondly the velocity stacks in the plenum for each runner. That is tough and darn near impossible when trying to keep it economical by using the runners for a stock intake. Your best bet is to substitue the bottom sheet of aluminum with a thick piece of aluminum. This will give you enough meet to using the thick aluminum as the velocity stack by flaring each end.



Frank

turbovanmanČ
10-29-2006, 03:50 PM
You have it all wrong man! Go read a physics book, corky's book, or better yet Heywood's book!


If you need to flow 40lb/min of air. A stock intake track (plenum to valve) may cause the turbo to end up at 30psi. A ported one may cause the turbo to end up at 25psi. A moded/tricked out one will cause you to be at 20psi. Which is more desirable? Obviously the later! Why? Cooler temps, lower velocities, etc.

Velocities matter. The higher velocity you have to have to maintain that flow, the more inefficent and hotter the temps get. You want the air low and slow... unless you can do it with good clean stacks where velocity can go up without pressure going up.

When you make the car efficent, not only are you making the car run cooler, but more power can be had from cooler air! Double power adder!



Frank

Not trying to start a war as I love to read this stuff but if your cramming air into a nice large area, why does it need to be tuned? I understand the restriction but when air is moving, its moving. Cliff notes are fine, :thumb:
My analolgy I use is a garden hose, pinch it off and theres your restriction, aka bad intake, open it up and voila, mega flow.

phaxtris
10-29-2006, 07:49 PM
i think you are all straight up full of ----, and way over thinking this, its better than a 1 piece, and better than a 2 piece, but not good enough for you guys eh ? ive seen a lot of ---- on here and turbo dodge with nothing but praise, but something of resonable quality shows up and nothing but nit picking :rolleyes:

Frank
10-29-2006, 08:12 PM
i think you are all straight up full of ----, and way over thinking this, its better than a 1 piece, and better than a 2 piece, but not good enough for you guys eh ? ive seen a lot of ---- on here and turbo dodge with nothing but praise, but something of resonable quality shows up and nothing but nit picking :rolleyes:

Easy there killer, no need to turn this into a fight because we dont agree with what you said. I think everyone that has added comments has already said awesome job. We all know it is better then what we have... that much is blatenly obvious.


Frank

phaxtris
10-29-2006, 09:01 PM
......

Frank
10-29-2006, 09:12 PM
Actually only 1 person didnt say good job or the other nice comments. The rest were directed towards you.


Frank

Garret
10-29-2006, 11:20 PM
It was me that posted all I saw was complaining about the manifold

Frank
10-30-2006, 07:16 AM
Actually my post doesnt make sense now that phaxtris edited his post into .......


I am glad you were able to do it with a one piece effectively.

shadow88
10-30-2006, 07:57 PM
I sure wasn't bashing. I think it'll show an improvement over stock, especially in the 4500-6000 rpm range. Just consider that air moving along at lord knows how many feet per second and not going where you want it to. If the same basic idea were used with the throttle vavle on the driver's side, I simply feel that would flow even better.

John B
11-01-2006, 01:54 PM
"Hillborn fuel injection (circa 1968??)
for small block v/8's had velocity stacks...."

And Enderle and Algon, well before 1968, early 60's. Great days for racing!

BadFastGTC
11-05-2006, 09:23 PM
With all these talks of a new intake manifolds being built I thought I'd post mine

THIS is how a manifold should be built


Plenum has 4.5 litres of volume and is on a 2.2

So how is the flow balance between the four cylinders?

Steve M.

boost geek
11-06-2006, 01:38 AM
I think that intake looks cool! Just by cutting the elbow off a 1 piece and welding on a 3.3 elbow, (and opening the bowls on my G head), I notice my car flows way more air, and thus pings at 17 psi when it didnt with a stock 1 piece intake. I think you'll flow air like crazy! My car also pulls WAY harder at the same psi with the modded intake, over the stock intake. I used to run 15 psi on my stock intake every day, d.d., on stock T2 injectors. I now run 7-8 psi on the street, but if I want those 17 boost levels, I have to run +40s, and to be safe I run 45-50 psi fuel pressure. I actually always run + 40s now at about 28 psi fuel pressure on an MP GLHS Stage 2 comp. on low boost.
If you dont like that intake, sell it to me!:thumb:

How good does the car run with that thing anyways?

Garret
11-06-2006, 02:15 AM
Steve, better than stock I'd imagine all I know is the car definatly have more up top power I still haven't fixed my timing but for as Soggy as it is everywhere else It'll definatly make an improvement once I fix the manifold.

I'll make you one cheap if you want boostgeek haha

Frank
11-06-2006, 07:06 AM
For helping to look at flow balancing, you could do something with EGT sensors and checking to make sure you have similar numbers across the board.


Frank

Garret
11-06-2006, 08:35 AM
But then I would have to buy an EGT gauge and sensor... which would be more than I have into the manifold LOL

8valves
11-06-2006, 10:36 PM
I guess maybe I started some negative thinking here, and for that I'm sorry.

I tried to make my post to both point out some things that could use some work, but also state that it's probably better than a stock piece.

On the other hand- this is exactly what's holding the TD world back. You want to say that intakes don't have velocity stacks or machined floors? Obviously you need to do more reasearch, AIR, Full Race, Wilson Manifolds, AMS VSR, Magnus, Forester, Dart, Keith Black, Ray Barton.... those are just a few names that should strike a chord with ANY car guy that are all users of smoothed entries/velocity designed ports in intake manifolds.

People here are trying to show someone WHO IS WILLING TO PUT THE TIME INTO TRYING NEW THINGS that with a little more work there is even more to be had... don't try to stop people from advancing the platform further.

End of rant.

Aaron Miller

Garret
11-06-2006, 11:27 PM
Who said anything about me not having a smoothed entry into the port? I just said I had no velocity stacks but it doesn't mean that a good job wasn't done on the port entry from the plenum. I took the time to grind it out smooth and make for a good port entry I just personally don't believe in velocity stacks on a boosted car

Rattlesnake
11-07-2006, 12:15 AM
you guys are all trying to over think this, this is not an NA motor, a good portion of its time is spent in boost, where velocitys, etc are not as important, mabye take for example the intake manifold on a 7mgte, tb faces a wall right away, no problems there, people still make upwards of 600whp on them

and velocity stacks! machined floors! LOL, when is the last time you cut apart an intake manifold from any boosted car, you tell me wich have velocity stacks and machined floors, because none of the ones i have ever cut apart have them.

mabye i should even refrence to old v8's, where the carb is generally 5" away from the floor of the intake manifold, and this is a fuel/air charge, not just fuel

im going to repete myself here, this is no NA motor, velocity stacks, all that kind of bullshit makes very little differance

We understand you very well, you are protected by your own ignorance!

phaxtris
11-07-2006, 04:36 AM
/\


thats ok, you guys can keep dreaming about tuned runners and velocity stacks while people like garret get there heads out of the clouds and actually start making and testing out new parts

and as for the hillborn fuel injection, mabye you should take a look why they used veolocity stacks, with only 1 inch of runner before the port its pretty obvious

Garret
11-07-2006, 05:22 AM
Just remember that everything in the car world is a compromise. Sure there may be some gains from velocity stacks but have you priced out a set of 4 aluminium velocity stacks lately? as I wouldn't do anything but weld ins... over a 100 dollars for what maybe a 1% gain in power... not worth the price IMHO. Also velocity stacks would also add more length to the runners which are at the maxium length I want for my application. Don't mistake the 10 minutes of planning for lack of planning Ryan and myself do sometimes overthink simple issues. We are (some of the few apparently) people who believe that velocity stacks make no worthwhile gains on a boosted car... The places where it may make gains are slighty before spool up but I don't feel in much more places.

Anyone have literature that shows how a velocity stack makes power in a boosted application? Just because a company dyno tests a manifold and "optimizes" with selected velocity stacks doesn't mean the same power could've been had by just changing the runner length.

It's easy to build a manifold that is better than stock, as we proved.
100% optimum... well giv'er a shot and see where your brain takes you like we did


Oh yeah just wait till you guys see the manifold on our 16v drag omni it'll blow your minds ;)

8valves
11-07-2006, 09:07 PM
/\
thats ok, you guys can keep dreaming about tuned runners and velocity stacks while people like garret get there heads out of the clouds and actually start making and testing out new parts



I resent that comment, as you can go ahead and please yourself by searching for a thread titled "New Box Plenum works" which I started talking about how radically the new intake manifold helped my setup. :mad:

Just because you have an opinion/theory doesn't mean you need to tell other people that their idea is wrong. I made suggestions stating that there could be gains to be had from them, but you've still made a large improvement over the stock piece. I still stand by that, good job Garret.

If everyone went by your thought process you're putting out there right now, nobody has any reason to not use a 1 piece intake with a 46MM TB on a Super 60 and a stock ported exhaust manifold... and everyone would still be stuck in the 12's.

But because we're out there designing new parts, testing, and pushing the limits of this platform there are advances being made. Like I said before, don't stop people from trying to gain perfection.

AM

phaxtris
11-07-2006, 11:25 PM
are you slow in the head ? what i said was you can sit around dreaming about things and never try anything, or just do it, and see what happens

you are obviously not even close to the same page with me on this one, im all for innovation, where did i ever say 'oh, new intakes are junk, use the stock ones' or 'bigger turbos dont do anything', learn to read buddy

8valves
11-08-2006, 08:05 PM
are you slow in the head ? what i said was you can sit around dreaming about things and never try anything, or just do it, and see what happens


You're digging yourself a deeper hole with me the more you go on. I'm one of the few people running a TAFT S3 cam, one of the first to use a GT DBB 3076R on a turbo dodge, still one of the few using an external wastegate, one of the few to use something other than a 52MM TB, one of the few to have a large plenum intake on their car, and the FIRST to break the 400 whp barrier on pum pgas alone with NO methanol or any other type of injection.

I've had TWO different TU header's on the car, and to date over 7 completed and running setups in teh same car in only 3 years total build time.

Would you like to know also about the race header I'm currently working on to be sold through Turbos Unleashed?

Get off your high horse and I'll get off mine.

AM

phaxtris
11-08-2006, 08:46 PM
thats the high horse of not being able to read ? because ive been on the ground the whole time

BadAssPerformance
11-08-2006, 09:04 PM
Easy there Boyz...

First off, I think we all can agree he's got a nice manifold there :thumb:

Second off, each of you got good points... It is always good to look at theory and what is 'textbook' best practice AND it is also good to do what makes sence for a nice economical budget build manifold that will rival a stocker.

boost geek
11-08-2006, 09:36 PM
I think the whole problem of this thread nit-picking the intake is because of the second line in the first post which says "This is how a manifold should be built'. There are different ideas on how the "perfect" manifold "should" be built. I wish I had the stuff to make a sheet metal intake, I would want a 90 on the top pointing toward the timing belt, as it would be going on a rwd setup.
Still think your intake is cool, I would try it on my S.C. if I had one!:thumb:

Garret
11-08-2006, 09:54 PM
lol good point mang

But it's a darned good manifold IMHO

8valves
11-08-2006, 11:20 PM
Yeah sorry, I'm out on this one.

AM

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2006, 02:47 PM
I would like to see a true back to back with it vs the stocker. I know its damn hard with a TD because of the setup but that would end all nitpicking and give factual data for more talking, arguing, :lol:

Garret
11-16-2006, 04:56 PM
Meh I know it makes more power as my car effortless tags the rev limiter in 2nd and 3rd gear :)

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2006, 06:52 PM
Meh I know it makes more power as my car effortless tags the rev limiter in 2nd and 3rd gear :)


As compared to?

Did the boost change without touching the controller, etc?

t3rse
11-26-2006, 12:57 PM
it's gotta be better than stock...

how is the fuel rail hooked up, did you use the stock bosses? I can't really see from your pics.

have you done any head work?

I must say that I've always questioned this design, pondering making one long before I saw yours, but if you moved the tb to the end, it'd be the same design (minus some interior work maybe) as what plenty of 9 and 10 second dsms run...

Garret
11-26-2006, 03:08 PM
I couldn't tell you if boost changed because I went from 16v conversion status back to 8v

Fuel rail is a slightly modified log rail and I am using the stock injector bosses.

I have some "minor" head work done... mostly dremel stuff I worked on the bowls and took the sharp edges out of the head and removed the casting flash and opened up both the intake and the exhaust ports a bit

cordes
11-26-2006, 04:08 PM
I couldn't tell you if boost changed because I went from 16v conversion status back to 8v

Fuel rail is a slightly modified log rail and I am using the stock injector bosses.

I have some "minor" head work done... mostly dremel stuff I worked on the bowls and took the sharp edges out of the head and removed the casting flash and opened up both the intake and the exhaust ports a bit

If you don't mind my asking, why did you switch from hybrid to 8v?

turbovanmanČ
11-26-2006, 04:53 PM
No kidding? why? :eyebrows:

Thats like going from a Porche to a Geo Metro, :lol:

8valves
11-26-2006, 05:35 PM
No kidding? why? :eyebrows:

Thats like going from a Porche to a Geo Metro, :lol:

Not for all of us 8V guys! :evil:

AM

turbovanmanČ
11-26-2006, 05:48 PM
Not for all of us 8V guys! :evil:

AM

Thats because your special. But in all seriousness, the time and money you have spent, going 16 valve would have been a hell of alot cheaper and easier. I know you want a high HP 8valve and thats admirable, for me, I just dont' have that kind of energy, patience and money. A bonus for you is your close to Paul V. I have asked him and Chris to come out here but Chris said no, :mecry:

8valves
11-26-2006, 05:55 PM
Thats because your special. But in all seriousness, the time and money you have spent, going 16 valve would have been a hell of alot cheaper and easier. I know you want a high HP 8valve and thats admirable, for me, I just dont' have that kind of energy, patience and money. A bonus for you is your close to Paul V. I have asked him and Chris to come out here but Chris said no, :mecry:

I don't want to drag this off topic, but I still maintain that the reason I don't go 16V is A) this is enough power for a daily driver, and B) if I went 16V I would be depressed if the car didn't make over 600 WHP and trap over 140-145 MPH. In my mind it's not worth the effort of obtaining the capabilities needed to do so, then only making what the car could make if it were still an 8V. That's all...:o

AM

turbovanmanČ
11-26-2006, 06:03 PM
I don't want to drag this off topic, but I still maintain that the reason I don't go 16V is A) this is enough power for a daily driver, and B) if I went 16V I would be depressed if the car didn't make over 600 WHP and trap over 140-145 MPH. In my mind it's not worth the effort of obtaining the capabilities needed to do so, then only making what the car could make if it were still an 8V. That's all...:o

AM

I am agreeing with you, just saying, time and money spent, you could have got the same results with less time and money. We all admire what you have done, 99% of us wouldn't, I am one of them, :amen:

t3rse
11-28-2006, 10:37 AM
the smartest thing to do at this point is drop an srt motor in, which can be done cheaper than a hybrid build on your existing stout motor...but I still think it fun to push the 8v to it's engineering limits. Some of us don't have the problems you have Simon with getting the car down the track :D

most of us have these cars because they surprise the hell out of people. If you really want to build a fast car (600hp for example), you don't start with a front-drive platform that will never have usable traction at those levels unless it's a dedicated drag car...

contraption22
11-28-2006, 11:31 AM
I am agreeing with you, just saying, time and money spent, you could have got the same results with less time and money. We all admire what you have done, 99% of us wouldn't, I am one of them, :amen:


I'm another one of that 1% that would:)

Clay
11-28-2006, 11:41 AM
Some of us don't have the problems you have Simon with getting the car down the track :D

:eek:

Rattlesnake
11-28-2006, 11:42 AM
but I still think it fun to push the 8v to it's engineering limits.

most of us have these cars because they surprise the hell out of people.
Agree 100%, for me it'll be 8v or nothing:thumb:

Garret
11-28-2006, 03:14 PM
The reason I switched back, was because i had my converted motor in my car running and ready to go in storage in a friend's garage. I came back home to pick it up and someone had broken in, stolen around 3k worth of TD stuff from inside the car and My holset turbo, my 3.5 inch downpipe, my intake piping and air filter. AND ONE FREAKING PLUG wire. So I got pissed off pulled the motor and put an 40 dollar 8v motor in. The 16v motor went into my drag car

turbovanmanČ
11-28-2006, 03:30 PM
the smartest thing to do at this point is drop an srt motor in, which can be done cheaper than a hybrid build on your existing stout motor...but I still think it fun to push the 8v to it's engineering limits. Some of us don't have the problems you have Simon with getting the car down the track :D

most of us have these cars because they surprise the hell out of people. If you really want to build a fast car (600hp for example), you don't start with a front-drive platform that will never have usable traction at those levels unless it's a dedicated drag car...

It is fun but at some point, the bleeding has to stop, lol!

And OUCH, thats just mean, :mecry:

Also, I agree, 600hp is too much for a street car, especially FWD. Not looking for 600 hp, more like 400 whp, :evil:


The reason I switched back, was because i had my converted motor in my car running and ready to go in storage in a friend's garage. I came back home to pick it up and someone had broken in, stolen around 3k worth of TD stuff from inside the car and My holset turbo, my 3.5 inch downpipe, my intake piping and air filter. AND ONE FREAKING PLUG wire. So I got pissed off pulled the motor and put an 40 dollar 8v motor in. The 16v motor went into my drag car

Thats right, forgot about that. I/we thought it was your friend? did you cut off his head?

Rattlesnake
11-28-2006, 09:40 PM
Well, if I wanted a high hp 16v motor I'd go with a Honda or an Evo or something like that. What I'm saying is that it is too easy to get 400-600hp with any 16v designed engine. It is like somebody said earlier, it is the reward you get when you see dyno numbers like 406whp and 456wtq out of an 8v, or beating a mean looking/sounding Grand National by a nose or blowing the doors off of an Evo or having your passenger do this :wow1: when the turbo spools up and he gets stuck to the seat. Or even better, your wife is willing to put a high price life insurance on you and she will be the beneficiary after asking for a ride in that "piece of junk" that you call your toy. And everything with the almighty 8v you put together 5 years ago! That is my motivation to stay oldschool.
8v forever:amen:

Ondonti
11-29-2006, 06:04 AM
Enjoy the intake. It feels good having a successful project.

Ive made my own (fuel not finished) and i know there are plenty of "shortcoming" but I just want to try something that will at least beat "stock"

Its lame to sit here listening to people brag about how innovative they are when I dont even see any real innovation. Talk about it fine, but the bragging is lame.

t3rse
11-29-2006, 04:30 PM
Well, if I wanted a high hp 16v motor I'd go with a Honda or an Evo or something like that. What I'm saying is that it is too easy to get 400-600hp with any 16v designed engine. It is like somebody said earlier, it is the reward you get when you see dyno numbers like 406whp and 456wtq out of an 8v, or beating a mean looking/sounding Grand National by a nose or blowing the doors off of an Evo or having your passenger do this :wow1: when the turbo spools up and he gets stuck to the seat. Or even better, your wife is willing to put a high price life insurance on you and she will be the beneficiary after asking for a ride in that "piece of junk" that you call your toy. And everything with the almighty 8v you put together 5 years ago! That is my motivation to stay oldschool.
8v forever:amen:

there's nothing like getting laughed at and then smearing a $50k car...

Don't get me wrong, I'll have an srt engine in my car eventually. At some point I'll either blow this one all to hell pushing it or I'll hit a flat line where it won't be able to do any more and I won't feel it worth it anymore to pump my time into it (I bet I could spray it into the 500s!). Then it'll end up in some other project I'll end up with in a year or so...

oh and sorry Simon, I just had to take a jab!

glhs875
11-29-2006, 07:53 PM
Well, if I wanted a high hp 16v motor I'd go with a Honda or an Evo or something like that. What I'm saying is that it is too easy to get 400-600hp with any 16v designed engine. It is like somebody said earlier, it is the reward you get when you see dyno numbers like 406whp and 456wtq out of an 8v, or beating a mean looking/sounding Grand National by a nose or blowing the doors off of an Evo or having your passenger do this :wow1: when the turbo spools up and he gets stuck to the seat. Or even better, your wife is willing to put a high price life insurance on you and she will be the beneficiary after asking for a ride in that "piece of junk" that you call your toy. And everything with the almighty 8v you put together 5 years ago! That is my motivation to stay oldschool.
8v forever:amen:

I like the post!!! :thumb: There is SO much untapped power left in the 8V's it's scary! And at times my 8V scares the crap out of me now when I'm driving, much less riding in it. It already has tunnel vision acceleration with more to come! And I like the challenge of an old school 8V TD engine. If we just had some readily available better pieces to choose from (headers,cams & valvetrain, intakes) all would good!

8valves
11-30-2006, 01:20 AM
If we just had some readily available better pieces to choose from (headers,cams & valvetrain, intakes) all would good!

I can tell you that at least one, possibly two of those "issues" will be rectified before the end of winter, so save up a little extra cash. :thumb:

AM

glhs875
11-30-2006, 07:53 AM
I can tell you that at least one, possibly two of those "issues" will be rectified before the end of winter, so save up a little extra cash. :thumb:

AM

I'm waiting. And I'll tell you, I'm very picky towards stuff like that! If parts aren't out there like I want, I end up making it myself if I can! :thumb:

turbovanmanČ
11-30-2006, 03:36 PM
I like the post!!! :thumb: There is SO much untapped power left in the 8V's it's scary! And at times my 8V scares the crap out of me now when I'm driving, much less riding in it. It already has tunnel vision acceleration with more to come! And I like the challenge of an old school 8V TD engine. If we just had some readily available better pieces to choose from (headers,cams & valvetrain, intakes) all would good!

I bet there is, :thumb: but to be honest, money means alot to me and going 16valve is the cheaper of two evils. I really admire you guys for pushing the 8valve envelope, you are giving future TM'ers hope. Me, I am cheap and lazy, hehehehe, :thumb: :nod:

Rattlesnake
11-30-2006, 03:44 PM
Me, I am cheap and lazy, hehehehe, :thumb: :nod:I agree with you on the cheap part, but a TDer can't be lazy, cause he's always working on the car!:lol:

turbovanmanČ
11-30-2006, 03:51 PM
but a TDer can't be lazy, cause he's always working on the car!:lol:

Hahhhaa, oh yeah, forgot about that, :lol:

Garret
11-30-2006, 09:40 PM
You gotta remember though, guys that buy TDs for more than a cheap turbo car usually have some sort of money or resources to do something with it. Be it 16v conversion or put some actual development into the 8v aspect. Since I have been in with TDs it seems all the same people get into them and do the exact same thing or just throw on an exhaust and an MBC and beat the ---- out of it like they were built for. Since I started with TDs I can think of only a few "revolutionary" things to happen to TDs that was a great assest to the community

1) TU 3inch SV
2) The Mopar Chem & Dcal groups
3) Neon 16v Conversion
4) PT Lifters

Now really aside from that what else has really come out for these things since the super60 package?

Hell I'm impressed when anyone makes any sort of one off part for their Turbododge :)

turbovanmanČ
11-30-2006, 09:58 PM
I would add-

Custom manifolds
Off the shelf Cals
Hybrid 5 speed transmissions.
OBX into our trannys be it auto or 5 speed.

GLHS592
11-30-2006, 10:06 PM
Thanks guys! All this 8 valve talk is getting me motivated to work on my car.

WVRampage
11-30-2006, 10:44 PM
Its making me feel happy to still have a 8 valve head on mine,It is alot of fun to hake the 8 valve run,and when people see it they are amazed,It will be interesting to see what happens when some of the high tech stuff the imports are using gets rear cheap and we can bring some of that tech into our cars and make them run even beter.I have offtem wondered what we could do if we had a cam gear that could advance at high revs like some other cars do,I think with the advancements in tech and reduction in price it would be a reality,maby even with junk yard parts.

glhs875
12-01-2006, 08:36 AM
1) TU 3inch SV
2) The Mopar Chem & Dcal groups
3) Neon 16v Conversion
4) PT Lifters

Now really aside from that what else has really come out for these things since the super60 package?

Hell I'm impressed when anyone makes any sort of one off part for their Turbododge :)[/QUOTE]

Head flow has gotten better/more cfm. Camshafts are getting better. The understanding of how a turbo system really works has grown big time! It won't be long until a streetable 7500+rpm 8V can be had. I'm knocking on the door of that now!!! Oh, and I'm not using any of the things you mentioned above. I have had a little cal work done though.

Garret
12-01-2006, 02:49 PM
Yeah I forgot the OBX diff

3Bar_Mopar
12-02-2006, 03:45 AM
What kills me more than anything, is that even with the surprisingly low amount of real 8 valve innovation, the 8v'ers keep getting faster and faster....that just shows that there is a lot of forward thinkers in this community who keep plugging away and keeping it old school!

I was thinking about going to an SRT powertrain, but all this 8 valve talk has inspired me to stick with the old 8V and see what happens. The path of least resistance is the path most traveled...innovate, not imitate.

glhs875
12-02-2006, 07:59 AM
What kills me more than anything, is that even with the surprisingly low amount of real 8 valve innovation, the 8v'ers keep getting faster and faster....that just shows that there is a lot of forward thinkers in this community who keep plugging away and keeping it old school!

I was thinking about going to an SRT powertrain, but all this 8 valve talk has inspired me to stick with the old 8V and see what happens. The path of least resistance is the path most traveled...innovate, not imitate.

I believe a welded up & raised runner 8V head, with the ports tapered and having the same basic area of a 44mm valve, along with a moderate duration cam having a wide lobe separation and having a lift of .600 or a little better along with the right springs to control valve float, would have the basics to make the fastest 16Vs scratch there heads. I believe 500+ steetable WHP can be had with an 8V. What's the limit, I don't have a clue! I'm thinking about doing up a welded head. If I can get myself motivated enough.

Rattlesnake
12-02-2006, 11:19 AM
Well, I have some innovative ideas for our application and I'm working on the first one. I'm sorry I can't share this with you guys but the reason is that there are some people that will take your idea and make it theirs, market them and they are the heroes. Once they are tested and positive results are produced, then you'll know about them.

3Bar_Mopar
12-02-2006, 12:28 PM
Well, I have some innovative ideas for our application and I'm working on the first one. I'm sorry I can't share this with you guys but the reason is that there are some people that will take your idea and make it theirs, market them and they are the heroes. Once they are tested and positive results are produced, then you'll know about them.


Sweet...I can't wait!:amen:

8valves
12-02-2006, 01:00 PM
Well, I have some innovative ideas for our application and I'm working on the first one. I'm sorry I can't share this with you guys but the reason is that there are some people that will take your idea and make it theirs, market them and they are the heroes. Once they are tested and positive results are produced, then you'll know about them.

Is this what we talked about some time back in PM's?

AM

turbovanmanČ
12-02-2006, 01:32 PM
I believe a welded up & raised runner 8V head, with the ports tapered and having the same basic area of a 44mm valve, along with a moderate duration cam having a wide lobe separation and having a lift of .600 or a little better along with the right springs to control valve float, would have the basics to make the fastest 16Vs scratch there heads. I believe 500+ steetable WHP can be had with an 8V. What's the limit, I don't have a clue! I'm thinking about doing up a welded head. If I can get myself motivated enough.

See thats my problem, that is going to cost a boat load of money. I as are others, are not prepared to spend that kind of money on an old school 8v head.

Rattlesnake
12-02-2006, 02:23 PM
Is this what we talked about some time back in PM's?

AM
Yes, but I have a couple more.

whywoody
12-02-2006, 02:27 PM
The choice for me was budget.....or lack of lol!
For me building all the little pieces was cheap enough,achievable,and fun (at times NOT),and I like these sorts of projects.The end result for me was very rewarding,and so far reliable.I had no big expectations for hp/tq,just wanted to try and build it,but the gains in hp/tq by the butt dyno are great,very good cost:reward ratio.
Oh,and the confusion by others not in the know when they see my van's engine bay,is great....whywoody do that for?!

Whorse
12-02-2006, 06:06 PM
The Steve Menegon 8V Swirl certainly made a new benchmark for ported heads. It takes skill and money to make something like that, but it's the same for any part.

Who was the first person to successfully use a TBI header on an 8V? That's a huge gain for the cost of the part, and the biggest expense is labour.

Garret did something that's not a new idea, but his own rendition, and I think it's awesome. If I could make that I'd brag about it too, no matter how well it worked. I can't wait to see his TBI header.

glhs875
12-02-2006, 06:40 PM
See thats my problem, that is going to cost a boat load of money. I as are others, are not prepared to spend that kind of money on an old school 8v head.

Once the R&D is done on the head/camshaft combo to get the flow where it needs to be, then all the other things will fall into place. There's not going to be a magic intake or header that will make gobs of HP until the above is accomplished. And then it will be basically the same as building up a 16V combo which is not necessarily cheap either. I have less $ in my 8V engine than I would if I were to go to a 16V. I sunk my $ into things that counted. In my opinion, the money needs to be spent on making a 8V head flow in the high lift numbers, then have a cam ground to opereate in that area. Then making HP would basically be a piece of cake. In NHRA pro stock bike, the 2V per cyl Buels don't seem to have any problem keeping up with the 4V per cylinder bikes. The same can happen with our engines. At least up to a point.

turbovanmanČ
12-02-2006, 07:02 PM
Very true but to make an 8V head flow, your looking at huge money. Steve Menegon was charging $1500 US for his work. It was worth every penny as they worked and brought the power levels up. Now you guys are talking about rewelding ports etc, were talking another $1000 or more to do that. So after all is said and done, your into a 8V head for $2000-2500 or more. For that kind of money, you can have a working Hybrid and put money in your pocket. On top of the head, you need an intake that will work, most 16v conversions have cheap intakes that work and will put out stupid power. 450whp on a 16 valve is a piece of cake. That kind of power out of an 8v take serious work. I have rounded up all my TIII parts and even buying them one at a time, I have aprox $1000 in to it and all I need is pistons. So for $1500, I will have a TIII 2.5L that will give me more than enough power and no trick welding, port raising etc. I don't care about using 8v so this appeals to me. You guys love your 8v setups and thats awesome, :thumb:

Whorse
12-02-2006, 07:11 PM
If enough people buy these things and learn how to do the work, they will come cheaper. I've seen very well ported 8v heads for under 800cdn, including valve work. I think there are people in the community looking at CNC ported 8v heads, which in larger buys would be much cheaper. Even the advances in machining have made valve work more reasonable, and with people finding parts from other cars that work, like PT Lifters, there are other options available as well. How many of us have or are running intercoolers from other stock vehicles, with big gains? I know my 944 IC made a big difference over stock.

turbovanmanČ
12-02-2006, 07:19 PM
If enough people buy these things and learn how to do the work, they will come cheaper. I've seen very well ported 8v heads for under 800cdn, including valve work. I think there are people in the community looking at CNC ported 8v heads, which in larger buys would be much cheaper. Even the advances in machining have made valve work more reasonable, and with people finding parts from other cars that work, like PT Lifters, there are other options available as well. How many of us have or are running intercoolers from other stock vehicles, with big gains? I know my 944 IC made a big difference over stock.

Yeah, but $800 only flow slightly better than stock. Steve reworks the ports, most don't or dont' have a clue where to start.

But for sure, volume will lower the price, :thumb:

Whorse
12-02-2006, 07:54 PM
One of the board members here was going to do portwork for me a while back and he estimated about 85% of the performance gains of an SM or FM ported head for 700USD.

Granted it won't be that price forever, but it's around. I think chadxton from the other site had his head ported for about 1000, including buying a jy head for the shop to chop open and examine.

BadAssPerformance
12-02-2006, 08:15 PM
I dig the old school 8V stuff too. Got a bare head to start with, just need $4000 to make it right.

Sometimes I think it would be cheaper to just CNC a cross flow 8-valve head! ;)

glhs875
12-02-2006, 11:38 PM
I dig the old school 8V stuff too. Got a bare head to start with, just need $4000 to make it right.

Sometimes I think it would be cheaper to just CNC a cross flow 8-valve head! ;)

Well, I guess that's where myself and others have an advantage. I do my own port work. I have maybe $500.00 max into my head, including all the valves, springs, machine shop work, and dremel supplies. But my point is, a ported stock intake and ported stock exhaust mainifold will support a 10 second car up to around 2600#. It's been done more than once. Maximizing the efficiency of a set combo can go a very very long ways. That has to be done with any setup if you want to go fast. And I'm not downing you in any way Simon, but with all you have done to your van, I feel you should be running way better! The 16V is not going to make a gigantic improvement over what you have unless it's tuned right as well.

glhs875
12-02-2006, 11:54 PM
In my opinion, a welded up and ported head shouldn't cost but maybe around $200.00 more over a non welded & ported head. If so, I feel you'd be getting ripped somewhat. A modified stock intake could be used. Should flow enough without a problem if done properly. But the head would need some new/higher mounting holes drilled & tapped into the head. But I'm seeing things like this can't be done by most, as they would have to pay for it to be done and it would be expensive. And in that case, a 16V starts to look real good!! :thumb:

turbovanmanČ
12-02-2006, 11:58 PM
Well, I guess that's where myself and others have an advantage. I do my own port work. I have maybe $500.00 max into my head, including all the valves, springs, machine shop work, and dremel supplies. But my point is, a ported stock intake and ported stock exhaust mainifold will support a 10 second car up to around 2600#. It's been done more than once. Maximizing the efficiency of a set combo can go a very very long ways. That has to be done with any setup if you want to go fast. And I'm not downing you in any way Simon, but with all you have done to your van, I feel you should be running way better! The 16V is not going to make a gigantic improvement over what you have unless it's tuned right as well.

Totally, I do my own porting then a head shop touches it up and flows it for me.

I agree, theres more in my van but I've wanted to go 16 valve ever since I drove a Spirit R/T. Also, another factor is fuel economy, Whywoody picked up 5 mpg I believe in the swap. That would put me around 18-20 mpg, :thumb:

Check out this link for another reason for 16valve, lol! If you hadn't noticed, the EVO is my favourite in that vid.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=100994#post100994

Garret
12-03-2006, 04:57 AM
In my opinion, a welded up and ported head shouldn't cost but maybe around $200.00 more over a non welded & ported head. If so, I feel you'd be getting ripped somewhat. A modified stock intake could be used. Should flow enough without a problem if done properly. But the head would need some new/higher mounting holes drilled & tapped into the head. But I'm seeing things like this can't be done by most, as they would have to pay for it to be done and it would be expensive. And in that case, a 16V starts to look real good!! :thumb:


That is a ridiculous statement. Sure they can "Support" that kind of power but at a HUGE bottleneck to the system.

As for a 16v conversion, to do my 16v conversion cost me 600 dollars not including a rebuilt shortblock that I purchased when i did my swap, I ended up using my stock bottom end anyways, you just have to watch for deals they will come up.

glhs875
12-03-2006, 10:08 AM
That is a ridiculous statement. Sure they can "Support" that kind of power but at a HUGE bottleneck to the system.

As for a 16v conversion, to do my 16v conversion cost me 600 dollars not including a rebuilt shortblock that I purchased when i did my swap, I ended up using my stock bottom end anyways, you just have to watch for deals they will come up.

Warren Stramer was running consistant 10's in his car with a ported stock exhaust manifold for one example. Not a 1 pass wonder car by a long shot! He did pick up some HP with the very nice header he built. Enough for around .2 to .4 tenths in ET as it stands right now. I'm not saying a well built header or custom intake won't make more power, only saying that the WELL ported stock stuff isn't holding people back as much as some believe. I don't think it's a HUGE bottleneck if things are ported properly. I've even personally seen 16V's with good setups not really make alot, if any more power going from a ported stock intake to a well built aftermarket (INDY) intake. The welded up and ported stock 2-piece intake on my 8V makes power to 7000+ rpm with no problem with a S3 cam. And makes great power to around 6600rpm with a stock cam. And I don't mean only revving that high! I plan to experiment with some custom plenums though. If a smallish turbine and exhaust wheel is used on the turbo, that will be more of a bottleneck than the stock manifold could be. Same thing with the intake manifold dealing with not so good headflow and a smallish camshaft. Alot of people are only mainly increasing torque by a massive amount when they modify an engine. Myself included. But I'm slowing learning to increase power in the upper R's. Sure the torque gain increases HP somewhat, but until the power increase is made with a large RPM increase, a big gain in HP will not be had. That massive torque in the mid-range is needed to an extent, but it is also what can blow head gaskets, and cause detonation control problems. I try to always remember that a turbo only mainly amplifies the power band of a combo over how it would run in NA form. I'm only passing along some things I've learned in the 20+ years I've been playing with these cars. If you don't agree with me, that's fine! :thumb:

GLHSKEN
12-03-2006, 10:31 AM
Not to mention that huge mid-range torque plays hell on the rods. They take a beating down there. You definately want to move the power to the right. No matter what you will still have plenty of torque (done correctly) to blow slicks away.

8valves
12-03-2006, 11:30 AM
Not to mention that huge mid-range torque plays hell on the rods. They take a beating down there. You definately want to move the power to the right. No matter what you will still have plenty of torque (done correctly) to blow slicks away.

This is a true fact, because nearly every part on my combo has been designed to decrease overal torque output in the imdrange, and I STILL make 395 ft/lbs... only 12 off of a 407 peak HP. That differential is awesome, and why a 400 hp TD can trap nearly 130 mph, compared to similar weight Hondas that will take nearly 500 whp due to the lack of that torque.

These cars will still progress, but I'm not sure for how much longer. I'll say with confidence that these cylinder heads can't produce a whole lot more without serious modification- such as raising the ports. The downside to that is beyond the cost of doing it, then you have the cost of a new intake manifold setup, and possibly valve cover if you take the port high enough. It's not just a bolt/unbolt setup. Not that that's a bad thing, just more effort.

The cam selection will be a big thing in the future.

And I disagree that the header won't make a large difference because of the head. Warren picked up .2-.4... ON A 10 SECOND SETUP! That's phenominal. To pick up gains like that with a car already making great power is a huge deal... Pro Stock racers will spend thousands of dollars of R&D to pick up 5 hp... which will be barely visibile in their datalogs at the end of the pass.

If you do that on a less modified car, you might see a .5-.8 second difference... FROM ONE PART! I just think the gain needs to be put into perspective more.

I wish people could take rides in a traditional TD setup making lots of peak torque but still decently good top end power, then go for a ride in my car, or maybe Brian's car from the sounds of it. You wouldn't know the difference if it were 8V or 16V (albeit a more stockish one).

I guess I rambled but I have strong feelings on this topic, for obvious reasons. Next spring should prove a big year for the TD community. I just need it to get here quicker!

AM

glhs875
12-03-2006, 02:50 PM
And I disagree that the header won't make a large difference because of the head. Warren picked up .2-.4... ON A 10 SECOND SETUP! That's phenominal. To pick up gains like that with a car already making great power is a huge deal... Pro Stock racers will spend thousands of dollars of R&D to pick up 5 hp... which will be barely visibile in their datalogs at the end of the pass.

If you do that on a less modified car, you might see a .5-.8 second difference... FROM ONE PART! I just think the gain needs to be put into perspective more.

I wish people could take rides in a traditional TD setup making lots of peak torque but still decently good top end power, then go for a ride in my car, or maybe Brian's car from the sounds of it. You wouldn't know the difference if it were 8V or 16V (albeit a more stockish one).

AM

I agree that was a pretty big gain on Warren's car! But it shows that a well ported stocker is not that bad either and that it can run 10's consistantly which is hauling A$$!!. As far as a bigger gain on a less modified car, well that would have to be tried and proven. The ported stock stuff will be less taxed on a lower HP car, so I don't know. And my car doesn't feel at all like the traditional 8V TD's I've had and rode in. But I still know there's alot more upper RPM HP left in it as well. And I still have more than enough torque. I can do 3 gear burnouts (auto trans.) without any problem. I think things are getting alot more interesting. And some more BIG gains lay in the near future. I love it!!! :D

glhs875
12-03-2006, 02:55 PM
Not to mention that huge mid-range torque plays hell on the rods. They take a beating down there. You definately want to move the power to the right. No matter what you will still have plenty of torque (done correctly) to blow slicks away.

I agree 100%!!

contraption22
12-07-2006, 02:23 PM
Isn't the stress on the rods higher at higher engine speeds?

Frank
12-07-2006, 03:00 PM
Isn't the stress on the rods higher at higher engine speeds?

There is three players for rod stress.

The first is during the power stroke, and the forces generated when create the downward force on the piston top and the expansion of gases pushing the rod thru the various crank and rod angles. If your peak positive pressure is just after TDC, you can bend the rod because the vertical travel from the rod and crank angle is to great. It is kind of opposite from detonation. Alot of failures with N2O cars occur because of this when they dont retard the timing enough.

The second player is the detonation. This is where there is too much stress on the rod when the doward force on the piston top is increasing but the rod angle is still increasing. This is typical of detonation or WAY to much timing on boosted motors. Hopefully the HG goes before the rod bends.

The third player is shear piston velocity. This is where Newton's law of physics plays into this. "Things at rest tend to stay at rest, and things that are moving tend to stay moving" - aka momentum. This is where we see issues with too high piston speeds (aka too man revs for that particular engine geometry). If your geometry puts piston velocities at lower revs (like stroking a motor does), you can have to high of piston G's during deacceleration or acceleration of the piston. This is seen with rod stretching and typically bearing failures or fastener failures. This is because the piston wants to continue moving or not moving, and the rod/crank is slowing or accelerating easier since the weight is distributed over a longer distance.


Frank

8valves
12-07-2006, 04:41 PM
The exhaust stroke will show the true weakness of your rods... there is zero resistance to the pistons gain in velocity, except the rod itself trying to hold the piston and pin assembly within the engine.

AM

turbovanmanČ
12-07-2006, 04:59 PM
The exhaust stroke will show the true weakness of your rods... there is zero resistance to the pistons gain in velocity, except the rod itself trying to hold the piston and pin assembly within the engine.

AM


And this is where I believe I have read that forced fed motors are easier on rods as theres some boost keeping a load on the piston whereas N/A, theres nothing.

t3rse
12-08-2006, 09:39 PM
so is it better to drop into neutral after a pass (when the throttle is lifted) or let the engine decel on its own?

cordes
12-08-2006, 10:33 PM
The exhaust stroke will show the true weakness of your rods... there is zero resistance to the pistons gain in velocity, except the rod itself trying to hold the piston and pin assembly within the engine.

AM

And the force is an exponential curve that gets pretty ugly, pretty quickly much over 7K last I checked.

turbovanmanČ
12-09-2006, 12:31 AM
so is it better to drop into neutral after a pass (when the throttle is lifted) or let the engine decel on its own?

DO NOT let it go into neutral when your at WOT, can you say KABOOM. I watch dyno operators and if I see anyone do that, I WILL NOT let them test my bike or van.

Garret
12-09-2006, 05:10 AM
after the throttle is lifted they go into neutral is what he is asking, not Thru the traps and while I still have it floored I guess I'll slam it into neutral now LOL

8valves
12-09-2006, 09:42 AM
so is it better to drop into neutral after a pass (when the throttle is lifted) or let the engine decel on its own?


Not if it's a manual, lubrication in your transmission is dependent upon shaft speed to splash lube the gears and keep them from heating up too much. I don't know if our trannies use a drip rail inside either... never had one apart.

AM

glhs875
12-09-2006, 10:15 AM
And this is where I believe I have read that forced fed motors are easier on rods as theres some boost keeping a load on the piston whereas N/A, theres nothing.

A turbo motor should be a little easier on rods because of the exhaust back pressure from the turbo. With the intake valve closed, boost wouldn't have an effect in this area.

turbovanmanČ
12-09-2006, 12:59 PM
A turbo motor should be a little easier on rods because of the exhaust back pressure from the turbo. With the intake valve closed, boost wouldn't have an effect in this area.


This is what I was saying, :nod:

t3rse
12-10-2006, 02:24 PM
Not if it's a manual, lubrication in your transmission is dependent upon shaft speed to splash lube the gears and keep them from heating up too much. I don't know if our trannies use a drip rail inside either... never had one apart.

AM

so what about that fraction of a second when you are banging gears?? In the same aspect the engine will decel faster without the tranny slowing the rate down and you don't have the extra cooling of the internals without the extra oil flow...meant more as a rhetorical thought...

Anyways, we're way off topic...this is an intake thread!

8valves
12-10-2006, 06:51 PM
so what about that fraction of a second when you are banging gears?? In the same aspect the engine will decel faster without the tranny slowing the rate down and you don't have the extra cooling of the internals without the extra oil flow...meant more as a rhetorical thought...

Anyways, we're way off topic...this is an intake thread!

The shafts will continue to splash lubricate because they can't just stop as you shift, they just slow... just like engine rpm. If you coast all the way down from 100 mph or so in neautral more than likely th einput shaft will slow down quite a bit, if not be stopped by then which will end all source of lubrication.

Yes, back to intakes.

AM

Garret
12-10-2006, 06:52 PM
Almost got my 16v Omni intake manifold mocked up and ready to be made :)

roachjuice
12-28-2006, 02:13 PM
looks cool!!! i do have one mod you can do... liquid to air intercooler on the manifold.... like right after the throttle body..... and have your own separate cooling system for it.... just got the idea from my buddies Tiburon.... which is supercharged.... heres some pics of the manifold and blower....
http://www.oktibs.com/ngmhouse/sniperdiy.pdf
the middle part where it says next generation motorsports is the inter cooler part and then goes into the runners....

Reaper1
01-03-2007, 01:50 AM
I've been contemplating a Laminova I/C for our cars for a while, but it would require a HUGE intake. We don't have a lot of room as it is, so it'd be kinda hard for an 8V, but I think a 16V set-up with the intake up front could do it easily. Another application I think it'd work well is a supercharged 3.0. It would solve a LOT of tubing problems....

BTW, the way our manual trannies are desinged they still get lubed even if in neutral with the clutch depressed...the FD drives the side gears and they splash feed drip rails that go to the inside of the tranny. If in doubt, just put the shifter in neutral and let the clutch out...that way the engine rpms are driving the input shaft. RWD trannies don't like to have the car in motion with the clutch depressed for a long time...the input shaft is what splash feeds the rest of the tranny...with no motion there is no lube becuase the output shaft is on top....