3D printing cylinder heads ???

[bakes]

Ok this question popped up with some friends while having a couple of cold ones. Instead of tying to find a good head then going though all the porting and machine work why not just get a head 3d printed with all they stuff done to it we want and crave it to have . Now i don't have any experience at all with printing parts. and i did find some Youtube videos of 911 head and a Ls block being printed in 82 hours out of aluminum so i know it can be done. Anyone know much on the topic ???

[going4speed]

The cost would bowl you over. While possible the reverse engineering time and the time to print with materials would put these heads in the thousands.

[bakes]

was thinking of mounting a damaged head in a bridge port and mill off 1mm at a time and 3d scan it then load data into a 3d cad .

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

I know only enough to ask if that block and head would last the 82 hours they took to print or were they "prototype models"

I know these days the manufacturers will print parts simply as part of the evolution of the piece or it's relevance to other parts

actual running engine parts from the printer might be .. scarey

even if the printer and the material are all fine I know enough from my father's experience selling non ferrous metals the user can have difficulties their own shop brings to the project

like chrysler's cadmium contaminated water pump bearings in the 50's hemi motors
cadmium dissolves in warm water ... oops

[tryingbe]

2.4L sounds so much cheaper and simpler.

[EaZyE426]

Assuming you are referring to 8v heads, there is an aftermarket company that is currently producing them. I believe someone on here picked up one and it was decent quality.

[boots]

I want to do a billet 420A head with k series ports and solid lifter setup. Our intake ports flow decent, but 235cfm exhaust is hurting us. I would be happy even to do solid cast heads, with external cooling.

[contraption22]

Would this be more or less time/effort/money than a cnc billet head?

[bakes]

Nope im game for 8v, 12v, 24 valve as there is just only so many mods as the stock heads can only accommodate

[bakes]

It would do 3d casting molds and cast some heads haven't poured molten alu in a long long time in seems to have become a lost art.

[1BADVAN]

I have been to some presentations of metal 3D printing, the company does make useable parts but they are probably 50x more $$ than a cast product. As for durability airplanes are starting to use 3D printed metal parts, specifically in GE engines, (if I am remembering right) So durability can be there, but probably another decade or 2 before it is cost effective for a hobby job, would be my guess. But it would be awesome to reproduce, the TIII head, custom 8v heads, Hans Herman, and full custom

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

an 8V head with long valves and max wedge sized ports is about ALL we need

that would solve the need for more valves and cams right there

[Reaper1]

Could it be done? Sure. It would cost more than just casting a custom head, though. Between the materials, machine time, and post-processing to get a truly functional product would shoot the cost right through the roof.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

if we as a group had the cash to back asking if brodix still have the tooling for those isma heads...we might have our 8V solution

[c2xejk]

Could it be done? Sure. It would cost more than just casting a custom head, though. Between the materials, machine time, and post-processing to get a truly functional product would shoot the cost right through the roof.

Maybe today, but some time soon it likely will become viable...

[bakes]

now i like that idea

[Aries_Turbo]

I want to do a billet 420A head with k series ports and solid lifter setup.

THIS!!!!!

man those K series make power with such low boost. like 400whp at ~10psi and other craziness. too bad they are a 94mm bore spacing vs ours at 96 lol.

Brian

[boots]

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one thinking outside the box. I think it would be simple task for 4 piston to mod there billet head program and change he spacing.

[going4speed]

What do you mean by simple? That's a pretty major change. That's another associated cost. It's not impossible to create a head for these cars but the cost is something that maybe 5% would take advantage of. The number of sales that would result would be a complete waste for any company. R&D is expensive. A charge of $200 an hour is not unheard of.

[boots]

When all the drawing, design work, and machine work is completed. And all you have to do is go into program software and change a dimension (bore spacing and stud layout) To me is a lot more simple task than starting from scratch.

[Reaper1]

When all the drawing, design work, and machine work is completed. And all you have to do is go into program software and change a dimension (bore spacing and stud layout) To me is a lot more simple task than starting from scratch.

It's more than just the combustion chambers and the studs. The cams change, the entire structure actually changes, gaskets, valve cover, etc etc...

[boots]

If it's in cad/drawing already it is way easier to modify than to start from scratch. Yes a custom camshaft would need to be made its not rocket science. You would need cams made any way to work with our cam gears. Again its not rocket science, someone that knows what there doing

[Aries_Turbo]

.....and all of that is in cad.

heads cams, gaskets, manifolds etc.

if someone is willing to spend the coin for a 4piston head anyway (it starts at 6000$) and do a ton of custom fab for a racecar, whats a little bit more lol.

the setup would be to get 4 piston some dodge 2.4 cad stuff and make a hybrid head that bolted on and used SRT cams and followers with the K series ports. it would probably be a one off 15k$ head but man would it perform.

Brian

[cordes]

.....and all of that is in cad.

heads cams, gaskets, manifolds etc.

if someone is willing to spend the coin for a 4piston head anyway (it starts at 6000$) and do a ton of custom fab for a racecar, whats a little bit more lol.

the setup would be to get 4 piston some dodge 2.4 cad stuff and make a hybrid head that bolted on and used SRT cams and followers with the K series ports. it would probably be a one off 15k$ head but man would it perform.

Brian

For all that work, just run a Masi head and be done with it.

[boots]

I've talk to pro billet about doing heads, around $3500-$4000 per head min 4. But I want to work with someone in the US. If we go with a billet head, hydraulic lifters are going out the window. There is power to be made with solid lifer design, plus no issues with lifters pumping up.

Masi head?

[ajakeski]

https://all3dp.com/2/how-much-do-3d-printer-materials-cost/

$4000-$5000 to print in metal. That does not include the cost to have 3D design made.

[cordes]

I've talk to pro billet about doing heads, around $3500-$4000 per head min 4. But I want to work with someone in the US. If we go with a billet head, hydraulic lifters are going out the window. There is power to be made with solid lifer design, plus no issues with lifters pumping up.

Masi head?

The stock head on the Maserati TC with the 16V engine allegedly flows more than ported TIII heads. It is also cam on bucket, so say goodbye to lifter problems. Need to turn crazy high RPM? OK, that's not a problem either. People shy away from them due to the rarity and high cost to build one up vs. a 2.4 or TIII, but if you really want high performance, then they're where it's at.

[boots]

Oh ok, I dont want to change bottom ends or auto transmission. I'm happy with 2.4 aluminum long rod setup, just want to get a better port design, no more lifters, and thicker deck to prevent flex.

[cordes]

Oh ok, I dont want to change bottom ends or auto transmission. I'm happy with 2.4 aluminum long rod setup, just want to get a better port design, no more lifters, and thicker deck to prevent flex.

Reverse hybrid...

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

if one wanted to make a billet head I think doing it in layers about 1-2 inches thick to create a stack that then makes up the head .. when stacked might be the "easiest" solution

bottom piece is deck surface , combustion chamber , top side of roof of combustion chamber and the floors of some of the water jacketing

second layer .. more water jacketing and port runners & valve bowls

and so on as you go up

[contraption22]

The stock head on the Maserati TC with the 16V engine allegedly flows more than ported TIII heads. It is also cam on bucket, so say goodbye to lifter problems. Need to turn crazy high RPM? OK, that's not a problem either. People shy away from them due to the rarity and high cost to build one up vs. a 2.4 or TIII, but if you really want high performance, then they're where it's at.

Parts rarity for a race engine is usually a deal breaker. Any pass could be the last pass for any given component.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

the exuberant prices of those "rare" parts doesn't help

I know I want a 16V CB crank .. but I'm not interested in paying 1000-1200 bucks for a crank no one wants to use

but for 5-6 hun ... it becomes a nice "billet" to start making a "real" crank outta... and I'd rather invest the difference into that huge bill coming from the machine shop than a guy who allows parts no one needs to collect dust

[contraption22]

the exuberant prices of those "rare" parts doesn't help

I know I want a 16V CB crank .. but I'm not interested in paying 1000-1200 bucks for a crank no one wants to use

but for 5-6 hun ... it becomes a nice "billet" to start making a "real" crank outta... and I'd rather invest the difference into that huge bill coming from the machine shop than a guy who allows parts no one needs to collect dust

But nobody has really found the limit of even the standard cast cranks yet.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

lol,
well .. you work on that and I'll try to not find out what it takes to snap a 16v crank ... doing a few thousand laps .. hopefully

- I do have an acquaintance who could offer some comments on the cast cranks , ncb bottom ends and cracked blocks , if I ever see him again...
I'd like to affect the nature of the way the car drives also as part of the "experiment" as a similar mass revolving around a smaller center should spin up and slow down much differently than the same mass over a larger radius as mass is greater the further it is from center

and I see a lot of places to hack weight off that 16v crank , almost twice as many places in fact and with lighter , stronger rods , 4 bolt caps and a common block it makes some sense to try the "premium version" of the crank too as the double weighted crank is all about reduced stresses and improved stability of the block's mains

anywho sorry for the off topic.. "back to the top.."lol

[cordes]

Parts rarity for a race engine is usually a deal breaker. Any pass could be the last pass for any given component.

No doubt. I would rather go with a Masi head than a custom made cyl. head for just that reason.

[contraption22]

No doubt. I would rather go with a Masi head than a custom made cyl. head for just that reason.

But with CNC, you can always make another part.


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[going4speed]

While I do enjoy this platform the thought of dropping $6k on a cylinder head in a car that's worth half that makes no sense.
At some point it just makes more sense to move to a different platform.

[cordes]

But with CNC, you can always make another part.


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What's the replacement cost and turnaround time?

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

While I do enjoy this platform the thought of dropping $6k on a cylinder head in a car that's worth half that makes no sense.
At some point it just makes more sense to move to a different platform.

unless the low cost of the car enables you to spend "the money" elsewhere
we can find good cars and parts cheap - not so if you needed a cuda , challenger or road runner with a worthwhile shell , just to start
I know I can't find anything else <<that good for the same 25hun as <<

[contraption22]

What's the replacement cost and turnaround time?

Hard to tell as the part is still imaginary. But they aren’t making and new parts for 2.2 masi heads.


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[going4speed]

Unfortunately in my life there is no "the money":(


unless the low cost of the car enables you to spend "the money" elsewhere
we can find good cars and parts cheap - not so if you needed a cuda , challenger or road runner with a worthwhile shell , just to start
I know I can't find anything else <<that good for the same 25hun as <<

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

noted ..

as for an idea what's involved both effort and cost wise .. this guy would have a valid opinion
to bad for us he makes ford 2.3stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv6h9auhMPQ

[Aries_Turbo]

For all that work, just run a Masi head and be done with it.

what does a masi flow at 500 and 600 lift? it looks really good at 350 lift according garys info from back in the day.

honda k series does 307/316 at 500/600 lift intake and 207/211 exhaust.

masi exhaust looks pretty good compared for the exhaust side but im curious what the intake does.

if you interpolate the chart i saw, the k20a2 does around 277 at .350 lift intake and 198 at .350 exhaust.

stock k20a2.

Intake

Lift CFM
.100 107.79
.200 196.52
.300 261.67
.400 294.65
.500 307.84
.600 316.64



Exhaust

.100 46.07
.200 122.55
.300 193.59
.400 203.86
.500 207.41
.600 211.82

so the exhaust seems better on a masi head but the honda intake smokes it.

hence the discussion about a custom head with honda style ports.



Brian

[cordes]

what does a masi flow at 500 and 600 lift? it looks really good at 350 lift according garys info from back in the day.

honda k series does 307/316 at 500/600 lift intake and 207/211 exhaust.

masi exhaust looks pretty good compared for the exhaust side but im curious what the intake does.

if you interpolate the chart i saw, the k20a2 does around 277 at .350 lift intake and 198 at .350 exhaust.

stock k20a2.

Intake

Lift CFM
.100 107.79
.200 196.52
.300 261.67
.400 294.65
.500 307.84
.600 316.64



Exhaust

.100 46.07
.200 122.55
.300 193.59
.400 203.86
.500 207.41
.600 211.82

so the exhaust seems better on a masi head but the honda intake smokes it.

hence the discussion about a custom head with honda style ports.



Brian

That's a good question. I've mainly gone off of Todd's statements about the flow. I don't recall numbers.

[boots]

I know flow numbers are just a tool to see if what you changed made improvements. But my exhaust flows 237@.450 lift and intake 302@.450. I've never looked at stock k numbers. But I know cnc k's exhaust and intake flows a lot more, and now they have the billet head and new aftermarket cast heads. So options are endless.

[Reaper1]

Why does it matter what a head flows at a lift that's pretty much physically impossible? I haven't checked yet (Rick Diogo could speak to this maybe), but I don't think the Masi can get a valve .500 off the seat. There's a few reasons I say that, but there's physical limitations in the valve train area that will cap what can be done.

I'd rather have fat duration at a decent flow at a lower lift than a huge peak number and nothing in between ruining valve springs...that's just me.

[4 l-bodies]

Why does it matter what a head flows at a lift that's pretty much physically impossible? I haven't checked yet (Rick Diogo could speak to this maybe), but I don't think the Masi can get a valve .500 off the seat. There's a few reasons I say that, but there's physical limitations in the valve train area that will cap what can be done.

I'd rather have fat duration at a decent flow at a lower lift than a huge peak number and nothing in between ruining valve springs...that's just me.

Having had Rick's head in my posession for a while I can attest that .460-.470 lift has been attained. A whole bunch more duration than stock too. You have potential piston to valve as well as valve to valve issues running this kind of lift in a Masi head. Even assembly before timing belt is installed needs to be done with care. As earlier mentioned, bucket bores need to be modified for increased lift and duration of camshaft.
Todd

[boots]

What are you talking about not possible???? You don’t see me posting numbers at one inch. My crane 24’s are .453 lift, ,450 is a real number. 👀

[Reaper1]

Having had Rick's head in my posession for a while I can attest that .460-.470 lift has been attained. A whole bunch more duration than stock too. You have potential piston to valve as well as valve to valve issues running this kind of lift in a Masi head. Even assembly before timing belt is installed needs to be done with care. As earlier mentioned, bucket bores need to be modified for increased lift and duration of camshaft.
Todd

Todd, I actually knew about the valve to piston and valve to valve issues. I just didn't know where that started happening, especially because we do know that stock lift is something like .330"? I also know about the mods that need to be done in order to get much past stock (bucket bores being relieved, etc).


What are you talking about not possible???? You don’t see me posting numbers at one inch. My crane 24’s are .453 lift, ,450 is a real number. 👀

As I just stated to Todd, I didn't exactly know where the Masi started having mechanical interference. I knew more than stock (a LOT more) could be achieved, I just didn't know how much. I was specifically talking Masi, not the other heads as I do know A420/2.4 heads can get up in that range.