Lost another one

[135sohc]

Turned the key to leave Lowes this evening and things were bad. Limped it to a better area to check things out, pulled the valve cover and sure enough this time it is intake #1. This head has been reworked twice now (only guides were changed the first time), the second time was just about this time 3 years/40,000 miles ago with new seats, guides, valves ect as that time I lost exhaust #3. No indications of overheating.

Shoddy work, just my luck or just its time ? Other than hardware salvage I am thinking this cylinder head has had its run and will become a test subject for porting practice. 355,000 miles at the time of failure.

My plan forward is to use the cylinder head from the CSX's engine so I took that off this evening. It already had a roller camshaft installed, no idea what of course so I am wondering if I should swap them from the original head ? or just change the sprocket to round tooth and roll on with it ?

A basic garage level refresh is all I am seeing here. There are no machine shops in the area I trust anymore to not screw up and take forever.

[Murphy]

I'd probably swap the cam from the original head. I think the timing changes like 4* when swapping between round and square. A turbo cam isn't going to run great in a N/A car.

[135sohc]

Just looked and advance can get a replacement sealed power for less than $100, going to just make it new.

[Pat]

If that cam is the one I put in the CSX when I owned it, it was a square tooth, 88 cam. I’m positive I didn’t use a round tooth cam in it.

I don’t remember what I had for breakfast, but for some reason, I remember much of what I did to that car 12 years ago...

[135sohc]

If that cam is the one I put in the CSX when I owned it, it was a square tooth, 88 cam. I’m positive I didn’t use a round tooth cam in it.

I don’t remember what I had for breakfast, but for some reason, I remember much of what I did to that car 12 years ago...


Did you also do the studs ? I'm going to guess Frank did not change anything so whatever you installed is probably what it still is.


Advance had a stock sealed power replacement cam for $90 so I ordered one.. along with about a hundred other things to do a quick n dirty head refresh. Still debating if I should pull pistons and do a ball hone, rings and rod bearings.. ? other than the failed cylinder from 3 years ago everything else has almost 100k on it now.

Just before the overhaul 100k miles ago I did the 2.4 lifters and new rocker arms, the lobe on intake #1 had some flaking damage but I let it go, the damage has not gotten any worse but other than manifolds and the t-stat housing I want to have the second head as ready to go as possible assuming its not junk. I'm at work typing this and shopping for stuff but I should know this evening.

[krut]

If you're looking for a place for a head job, I'd suggest Precision in Hyatsville.
My buddy uses them for head jobs for work, I've used them, and also a few friends. I have not had any real problems with them.
It's one of the few places I've seen where I haven't heard anything bad of them.

http://www.precision-engine.com

[iangoround]

I had a really nice Tyler VanLant ported head that I couldn't keep rockers in. I tried everything. Several cams, replaced the valves and guides twice, new stock lifters, new PT lifters, a few sets of rockers. Nothing worked. It kept spitting out random rockers after hard pulls, and sometimes just randomly under light load.

Turned out the head was warped -- majorly. Tyler had it decked, but I don't know if whatever shop he used checked to see if the head wasn't "twisted". The third time I took it to a new machine shop and the guy threw a straight edge on the rear valve cover gasket rail. Basically the whole head was twisted. The deck surface was flat, but the rest of the head was all out of whack. The cam was out of alignment, the lifter bores weren't round, yadda yadda.

So now I've got a very nice flowing 782 paperweight in my garage. There's really no good way to straighten the thing back out at this point. I replaced it with another head that I had checked and double checked before I started. Lesson learned I guess.

[135sohc]

Got the head stripped down. Some pitting on the backside of cylinder 1, fairly noticeable scratch on the corner going from the oil feed passageway to the exterior and on the same end there is a nice sized dent almost on the fire ring from being dropped on the dowel pin :(

A heavy coating of gasket spray would probably be enough to save it as is.. so burned out from trusting any machine shop to actually do the job right and not take forever. The last two I will never use again. Three different places on the way into work sell granite countertops, I'll try them tomorrow to see if I can buy an end drop and lap it in myself.

[135sohc]

Got a piece of granite today and ordered a roll of 320 grit sand paper to get here tomorrow.

[135sohc]

Fumble on mcmaster, shipping from Chicago not NJ so no arrival until monday. went to work and drilled/tapped the oil gallery holes for pipe plugs.

Not ideal but plan b came about to get the head surfaced. I glued 4 sheets of wet/dry down and started working it around. 320 and then 400 grit. Got rid of all the pitting, the dent from the dowel pin and the deep scratch by the oil feed inlet. I want to get some more 400 grit tomorrow and work it a bit more to make it 100% perfect, it is 95% there now. Checking with a non precision straight edge it is flat to less than .002 deviation across the deck.

https://i.imgur.com/m0rmTSv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/e4UEsZE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ag72Ztq.jpg

[Aries_Turbo]

ive done that before (sanding head) but i used a sheet of glass and glued sandpaper to it. i strapped the head face up on a table saw and set the glass on top with a 2.2 deckplate onto to smoosh the glass flat.

it was a subaru head that had fire ring pitting from galvanic corrosion. i sanded that all out, cleaned the head and its still on the car years later.

added extra grounds to the head as thats what subaru did to stop the corrosion in later years.

Brian

[cordes]

That surface looks great. Out of curiosity, what did the chunk of granite cost you? Do you know how flat they get those for counter top purposes? There's a guy on ARFCOM trying to grind some stone to a millionth of an inch or some such, but he can't get the temperature control in his place constant enough to do so. That's his theory anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

ETA: What was the problem with this head originally? Did it drop a guide, or seat?

[4 l-bodies]

Man I feel for you guys that can't find a reputable shop that can successfully resurface a cylinder head. I guess I feel fortunate that I have a number of shops that can do it right every time. I DID have trouble finding a shop locally that could alignbore and hone cam journals on OHC cylinder heads. Exactly one in Twin Cities metro area that I am aware of.
Todd

[135sohc]

That surface looks great. Out of curiosity, what did the chunk of granite cost you? Do you know how flat they get those for counter top purposes? There's a guy on ARFCOM trying to grind some stone to a millionth of an inch or some such, but he can't get the temperature control in his place constant enough to do so. That's his theory anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

ETA: What was the problem with this head originally? Did it drop a guide, or seat?


The granite was $25

Using a 24" starrett straight edge that I checked on the table inside the haas at work it was 'flat' and comparing that against the granite piece it was 'flat'

Flatness in metrology has many grades and temperature control is a huge factor. Surface plates have to be calibrated and used at a very set temperature if your seeking accuracy into the millionths of a inch.

This head came off the CSX engine, it looks ok but the deck surface was rough. The head in the car has dropped a seat once and was reworked completely 3 years and I am 99.998% it has dropped another one.

[cordes]

The granite was $25

Using a 24" starrett straight edge that I checked on the table inside the haas at work it was 'flat' and comparing that against the granite piece it was 'flat'

Flatness in metrology has many grades and temperature control is a huge factor. Surface plates have to be calibrated and used at a very set temperature if your seeking accuracy into the millionths of a inch.

This head came off the CSX engine, it looks ok but the deck surface was rough. The head in the car has dropped a seat once and was reworked completely 3 years and I am 99.998% it has dropped another one.

Thanks for all of that information. I have a nice straight edge which I could use to check any piece of granite I might come across. I'll potentially do so soon. I have a customer who does granite counter tops, so this may be an affordable deal. I looked at a head in my basment today which has been sitting down there forever. I think it would be the perfect candidate for this procedure. I really appreciate you taking the time to update this thread in such a complete manner.

[135sohc]

Cleaned up and re-blued for valve lapping and one more session on the granite with 600 grit.

https://i.imgur.com/ZYiQkYw.jpg

Rockauto has screwed me again. ordered 4 valves, they come packaged two per box and one box only had one in it.. Not expecting a fast turn around on that.

reinstall the oe valves, break out the set of nos oem valves or try to get another valve asap from advance or autozone ?

[cordes]

What are you bluing it with?

[135sohc]

Machinist layout blue.

https://itwprofessionalbrands.com/1164/dykem/layout-fluid/steel-blue-layout-fluid

[Aries_Turbo]

ive used a sharpie in a pinch lol.

Brian

[135sohc]

Yeah at work I normally use a big sharpie, easier to clean off. Rockauto shipped the missing valve, I still think I'll use the NOS valves to keep things moving and shelve these for the next build. Somewhere I have a new old stock swirl head casting just waiting for something to come along.

[135sohc]

Cleaned up another water pump housing to have it prepped and built up ready to swap out and sure enough it is probably junk like all the others The hose nipples on this one were actually very clean, the flange for the pump seal was wrecked with one spot completely eaten through from inside to outside. Going to sandblast this one tomorrow and see how bad the rest of it is. Some rtv will most likely make it work fine if there are no cracks and the pitting does not go too deep. But why do these things just crumble and corrode so badly ?? some really low grade pot metal aluminum ? sure the pumps get a little crusty on the outside but they dont get eaten away like the housings do.

[cordes]

Cleaned up another water pump housing to have it prepped and built up ready to swap out and sure enough it is probably junk like all the others The hose nipples on this one were actually very clean, the flange for the pump seal was wrecked with one spot completely eaten through from inside to outside. Going to sandblast this one tomorrow and see how bad the rest of it is. Some rtv will most likely make it work fine if there are no cracks and the pitting does not go too deep. But why do these things just crumble and corrode so badly ?? some really low grade pot metal aluminum ? sure the pumps get a little crusty on the outside but they dont get eaten away like the housings do.

I've always assumed it to be a problem with the aluminum used combined with the poor service most of these vehicles received throughout their lives.

[135sohc]

Put the pump and housing together with the o-ring and a coating of grey rtv to aid in sealing the flange surface. Valves are lapped in and the head surface got one more session with 600 grit. Clean and assemble tomorrow with Monday being the big day. fingers crossed..

Never had a problem using conventional green coolant but for commonality with everything else. This time I will be going to zerex G05 and using a slightly cooler thermostat.

[Ondonti]

One problem I have with machine shops is not following instructions. I have heads where I want basically zero removed...and they don't care about thinning out the decks.
Currently searching for a shop.

[135sohc]

Coming along this afternoon/evening. Got the head pulled and what a mess I found, already wasted the money on another cometic but I will be using an oem 5281064 gasket this time. The block is cross drilled and the replacement head is not.

From day 1 the cometic started seeping oil and never stopped, the deck surface was not that bad 3 years ago and today it was just nasty.. The cometic had evidence of scrubbing especially around the triangular coolant ports Work a half day tomorrow so I can take advantage of the good weather and hopefully get it done, run a flush, heat cycle it, re-torque and call it good. Intake seat on 1# was about 1/4 dropped out. This thing did smoke on cold start ups and the backsides of the intake valve are super crusty.

[cordes]

Sounds like the machine shop did a poor job all the way around with that head. Dropped a seat, and a bad guide or valve stem seal at the least. Do you have pictures of everything?

[135sohc]

The stem seals are bright blue, same appearance as the off brand stuff listed on rockauto. I have felpro/oem seals to install. I got pictures to upload later.

I should clarify the cylinder head surface looks fine, the block surface around the edges is what looks bad. For being 'reusable' I sure would not trust the gasket that came off to seal again correctly.

[135sohc]

Head is assembled minus the lifters and rockers. I'll do those after it is installed.
https://i.imgur.com/e3szZUz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rvzj5tm.jpg

Could not locate my 10mm 12point 1/4 drive socket and of course no body had one in stock so tomorrow I'll make the tool truck happy and buy one from him.

[cordes]

Wow. That's a great result for at home milling of the head. Why the 12pt. socket?

[135sohc]

The arp exhaust studs use 12 point nuts for clearance.

[cordes]

The arp exhaust studs use 12 point nuts for clearance.

Interesting. I've never used their exhaust studs before. I've thought about using SS hardware back there in the past. Do the ARP units resist corrosion better than anything else? I assume they're not SS.

[135sohc]

They work very well. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-400-8014

used thread sealer on them going into the head and lead paste anti-seize on the outside. Every single one came right out without a fight.

[cordes]

Wow. They are SS. Pricey, but if they're going to hold up for the long run, they're well worth the cost. Nothing is worse than fighting the old nuts and studs when trying to remove them. Thanks for the info on those.

[135sohc]

Picked up a can of copper spray and just for say so one of those felpro head-gaskets of doom. Not at all impressed with it, looked through the stash again and found a 5281065 that I bought years ago as an opened package discount so I'll save the sealed gaskets and run that one.

Pulled piston 1 last night and touched up the cylinder with the ball hone and new rings/rod bearing, its been 95,000 miles since the engine was redone (2011) and 40,000 miles since cylinder 4. so I'll be doing the other three as well just to freshen things up and hopefully even out the power balance indifference if there was any. Borrowed the ultrasonic from work to clean the pistons.

[135sohc]

It lives to die another day. Fired off on the first attempt, after how many times of doing these things this time I did not read the book and got it almost perfect. Close enough to start anyways and then fine tuned for 12 degrees.

Going to do a cooling system flush using Evapo-rust (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Evapo-rust-Coolant-System-Rust-Remov/131810444?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227052579851&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=151638863709&wl4=pla-263311441602&wl5=9007691&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=131810444&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjK_MpbHE4QIVRmSGCh06agkfEAQYASAB EgIE2PD_BwE) cleaner as there was a bit of crud at the base of the cylinders and then address the crack in the firewall asap so its not rotting out the floor.

Ironically enough the cometic HG ordered 3 weeks ago today from TU just showed up today... :rolleyes:
Along with the couple spare 5281064AB gaskets I ordered last week from MoparAmerica. I really hope the next time I go to mess with one of these it will be for the CSX.

[cordes]

Glad to hear it is back on the road. This has been a very informative thread.

[Turbo SOB]

I hate to sound like an ad, but I buy all my ARP through Allen's Fasteners. www.allensfasteners.com

No pretty packaging and you can buy onsie-twosies.

[135sohc]

Drained out the flushing mixture and that was some nasty stuff coming out. Back flushed and blew out everything with air. Walmart now stocks Peak Final charge coolant so I bought a couple gallons and filled it up with that. With the cooler T-stat (180 degree) it does run slightly cooler when steady highway driving. Going to watch and see how that affects mileage... What is the actual 'OE' T-stat supposed to be ??? Moto-rad says one temperature, stant says something else and gates is different still :confused2:

[krut]

What made you decide on a truck coolant?

[cordes]

IIRC, the stock t stat was 195* in the turbo cars at least.

[135sohc]

What made you decide on a truck coolant?

Yesterday at 5.30 in the morning while wandering through Walmart I noticed they sold Peak final charge. I have seen many good reviews of it and decided 'lets try it!'

The Zerex G05 I can agree with some findings that claim it breaks down and leaves crap behind over time. The price and availability also suck. Napa used to be the only game in town, Advance auto started selling it a couple years go and you can stack coupons and promo codes on it and bring the price down but it seems like they never have it in stock.

Conventional green has always worked but it seemed to get nasty sooner and with the Shadow being the last thing still using it I decided to end it.

[krut]

Yesterday at 5.30 in the morning while wandering through Walmart I noticed they sold Peak final charge. I have seen many good reviews of it and decided 'lets try it!'

The Zerex G05 I can agree with some findings that claim it breaks down and leaves crap behind over time. The price and availability also suck. Napa used to be the only game in town, Advance auto started selling it a couple years go and you can stack coupons and promo codes on it and bring the price down but it seems like they never have it in stock.

Conventional green has always worked but it seemed to get nasty sooner and with the Shadow being the last thing still using it I decided to end it.

Okay. I figured there was a good reason. I am planning to run the equivalent Shell / Cat ELC coolant myself. Mainly because we stock it by the pallet, and it's reasonably priced. (~$10/gallon) - 6.0 diesel guys swear it's superior to gold coolant / g05, etc. for the engine. I just don't know if there is a real reason *why* it's superior. We outsell the red coolant like 5 pallets to 1 green so we tend to have it sooner than green.

[135sohc]

I never run something like coolant until its 'worn out' because something else always fails and since our cooling systems only average 2.5 gallons at the fullest I just pour in some fresh and keep going. The G05 stuff will get nasty and cruddy over time... something my dad has a hard time understanding why his truck kept running hot and overheating. Knocked the tanks off the radiator core and that pos was clogged solid.

[krut]

Gotcha. Keep in mind this stuff is rated to last ~600k miles as long as it stays in the cooling system (;