Head Porting

[cordes]

I attempted to read through all of the head porting threads in a search recently, and they were great. That said, I still have some questions which may help others. There has been some time since a lot of the really good threads were written too, so perhaps techniques, parts, etc. have evolved in the interim.

That said, I went to work for a couple of hours on a head today. It's an old junk head which I did some very, very crude porting on years ago. Some of the intake and exhaust ports are still untouched, so I let into those. I'll be attempting to work on the untouched chambers next. I have another head or two which are also junk, so I have plenty of opportunities to get this right.

After working on this head today, here are my main questions.

1. I'm looking for a head which will make 350HP to the wheels relatively efficiently. How much should I really be looking to enlarge the ports? I have gasket matched the sides and top of the intake port in the pics. I did the same with the exhaust port, but put way less time into it.

2. A lot of the pictures I've seen on here make it look like way more was removed from the top of the intake port than just going to the gasket. Are my eyes deceiving me, or are they really that high? If so, do guys just cut out the gasket, or get a custom one?

3. The bowl of the intake port took a long time to get remotely decent looking. All the pictures I looked at seemed to show a round bowl without the stock ramp on the one side. Am I going about this correctly?

4. The bowl area seems pretty large, and in the pics you can see that I have a little bit of a pinch point in the middle of the runner to take out still. Should I be going that wide in the first place?

5. Any tips for deshrouding the valves in the chamber?

Hopefully we can get a good discussion going on this like we did in the two piece porting thread. I learned a ton from that, although I still need to get my top half welded up from going through it. Thank goodness I'm practicing with junk this time...

63741637426374363744637456374663747637486375063749

[ajakeski]

The offset inside the port is what makes the swirl. If you grind that away, you lose the swirl.

[cordes]

The offset inside the port is what makes the swirl. If you grind that away, you lose the swirl.

Is that good, or bad?

[chromguy]

The offset inside the port is what makes the swirl. If you grind that away, you lose the swirl.
Specifically where is this offset located inside the port???

[cordes]

Specifically where is this offset located inside the port???

I'll try to get some decent photos of it and post up in a bit.

[cordes]

Here are pics of the ports which hopefully show the ramp/boomerang/offset in the port which I suppose is what induces the swirl. It's really wide right there in the bowl and it narrows down to the runner and out the back of the head. If anyone is comparing to the earlier pictures I posted of my work, I was trying very hard to remove as little material from the sides of the bowl as possible. I did work to take out the ramps and round out the spark plug side of the bowl.

Anyway, here are the hopefully decent pics. 637516375263753

[masterjr33]

I attempted to read through all of the head porting threads in a search recently, and they were great. That said, I still have some questions which may help others. There has been some time since a lot of the really good threads were written too, so perhaps techniques, parts, etc. have evolved in the interim.

That said, I went to work for a couple of hours on a head today. It's an old junk head which I did some very, very crude porting on years ago. Some of the intake and exhaust ports are still untouched, so I let into those. I'll be attempting to work on the untouched chambers next. I have another head or two which are also junk, so I have plenty of opportunities to get this right.

After working on this head today, here are my main questions.

1. I'm looking for a head which will make 350HP to the wheels relatively efficiently. How much should I really be looking to enlarge the ports? I have gasket matched the sides and top of the intake port in the pics. I did the same with the exhaust port, but put way less time into it.
I took mine out to the gasket on the side. and maintained that to the short turn/valve guide. I took the top to the gasket line and aimed to match the curve in the bottom to 90% or better to the short turn.


2. A lot of the pictures I've seen on here make it look like way more was removed from the top of the intake port than just going to the gasket. Are my eyes deceiving me, or are they really that high? If so, do guys just cut out the gasket, or get a custom one?

3. The bowl of the intake port took a long time to get remotely decent looking. All the pictures I looked at seemed to show a round bowl without the stock ramp on the one side. Am I going about this correctly?
I tugged the bowls out sideways after I had my throat cut for +1 valves. then cleaned up behind the valve guide. I tried to get the back wall as smooth and straight down as possible.


4. The bowl area seems pretty large, and in the pics you can see that I have a little bit of a pinch point in the middle of the runner to take out still. Should I be going that wide in the first place?measure your first point at the gasket sides at the exit. and then measure in there. take it out to that size.


5. Any tips for deshrouding the valves in the chamber?
I layed my top of the chamber out about 5-6MM. around both valves. the little cut out at the point was almost gone. I had the machine shop cut the sides to fit the head gasket ring.
Then polished everything. I left a set of used valves in the head when i did this so i didnt nick the seat area.

Hopefully we can get a good discussion going on this like we did in the two piece porting thread. I learned a ton from that, although I still need to get my top half welded up from going through it. Thank goodness I'm practicing with junk this time...

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63741&stc=1http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63742&stc=1http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63743&stc=1http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63744&stc=1http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63745&stc=1http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63746&stc=1http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63747&stc=1http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63748&stc=1http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63750&stc=1http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63749&stc=1

Good luck man.

[ajakeski]

I use an already ported head as a guide when porting others. I suspect it's a Mopar head, due to the age, but I have no real proof. The valve bowls of this head are enlarged, but still retain the swirl shape. I would guess that eliminating the swirl would cause some kind of efficiency loss or flame propagation issue. There's probably some physics and calculus involved.
There's some info on this forum about deshrouding valves. 8mm was the suggested amount of lay back if I remember right. The attached photos are of my deshrouded head and the port view of the head I use as a guide.

I've never flow bench tested any of these, so theres a good chance I haven't improved anything. Todd Nelson may be willing to share some wisdom on the topic.

[ajakeski]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?81119-HEAD-vs-HEAD-2-2-turbo-stock-vs-Ed-Peters&highlight=deshroud+valves

[Shadow]

Looks like you have a decent start there. Enlarging the port to the size of the gasket is plenty big for only 350WHP. (relative to boost level and turbo selection of course, + other supporting mods)

As you stated, you could stand to smooth out the transition along the walls of the ports.

You could also stand to raise that ceiling area above the valve, exposing the guide a little more. (this can get a little tricky depending on bits you have ect)

Not sure what you are referring to when you say "ramp/boomerang/offset", but if it's the brutal casting transition in the port just above the valve, you want to get rid of that completely! Consider the area above the valve Before the valve open and the smooth radial transition + extra volume in that down turn area needed to enhance Even flow around the valve.

Don't forget to lay back the port floor entry with a nice radial down turn as well. There is a brutal sharp transition in the 782's in that area.

Now you never stated anything in regards to cam selection, peak power, valve size ect. So guessing you are just looking for a slightly better flowing head for starters....

[trannybuster]

While my porting was done....once..., but done really well by Tvalant..?? and that car made easily 350hp. Is it better to increase valve size 1st then port or its a part-n-partial thing I would guess..? OR does addressing the intake make even better sense? Just some spit-balling going on over here!

[cordes]

Looks like you have a decent start there. Enlarging the port to the size of the gasket is plenty big for only 350WHP. (relative to boost level and turbo selection of course, + other supporting mods)

As you stated, you could stand to smooth out the transition along the walls of the ports.

You could also stand to raise that ceiling area above the valve, exposing the guide a little more. (this can get a little tricky depending on bits you have ect)

Not sure what you are referring to when you say "ramp/boomerang/offset", but if it's the brutal casting transition in the port just above the valve, you want to get rid of that completely! Consider the area above the valve Before the valve open and the smooth radial transition + extra volume in that down turn area needed to enhance Even flow around the valve.

Don't forget to lay back the port floor entry with a nice radial down turn as well. There is a brutal sharp transition in the 782's in that area.

Now you never stated anything in regards to cam selection, peak power, valve size ect. So guessing you are just looking for a slightly better flowing head for starters....

Well, that's great to know about the power level. It's also nice to know that I'm not way off base.

I'm not sure what cam I would like to use. I suppose an F4, or R4? It seems to me like both of them have good idle characteristics for something that wild, but I'm not sure if that's as wild, but I'm not sure if I need something that aggressive? As far as valve size, I had anticipated on needing at least +1 valves. If I need bigger, that's fine too. 220,221, whatever it takes.

I can get back to the back of the port with the bit fairly well. What bit do you generally use to reach back there? Is there a general rule about how much to raise the port near the valve? It seems like there's not much that needs to be taken out at the gasket end, but that it'll come up quite a bit at the bowl relative to the gasket area.

I think we're talking about the same thing in the bowl above the valve. I just noticed that the ramped portion on the sides of the valve guide are more pronounced on the one side.

I guess this is going better than I had anticipated thus far. With two more junk heads to go, I should be able to get decent enough at this that I can really give a nice head a go for spring.

[Shadow]

Well, that's great to know about the power level. It's also nice to know that I'm not way off base.

I'm not sure what cam I would like to use. I suppose an F4, or R4? It seems to me like both of them have good idle characteristics for something that wild, but I'm not sure if that's as wild, but I'm not sure if I need something that aggressive? As far as valve size, I had anticipated on needing at least +1 valves. If I need bigger, that's fine too. 220,221, whatever it takes.

I can get back to the back of the port with the bit fairly well. What bit do you generally use to reach back there? Is there a general rule about how much to raise the port near the valve? It seems like there's not much that needs to be taken out at the gasket end, but that it'll come up quite a bit at the bowl relative to the gasket area.

I think we're talking about the same thing in the bowl above the valve. I just noticed that the ramped portion on the sides of the valve guide are more pronounced on the one side.

I guess this is going better than I had anticipated thus far. With two more junk heads to go, I should be able to get decent enough at this that I can really give a nice head a go for spring.

Let's keep in mind that this is only my Opinion, and other opinions may vary.

For the kind of porting you're doing, +1 valves would be the only consideration AFAIC. They have many Pros and no Cons, so no brainer. One of the really nice things about the +1 valves is many heads have had multiple valve jobs by this time and you will notice the valves sitting very low in the seats. +1 valve Use the stock seats but need to be opened up so the upgrade can correct this issue.

Of all the +2 or larger valve heads I've seen, only a few were done right. All the others would have worked Better with the smaller +1 valves as the port work was no were near what it needed to be to support that valve size. Add in Proper installation of the Siamese seats and everything else needed to do a Proper Big valve head and you will multiply things by 4 or 5 times what is needed on a +1 head.

Also, I almost always start with a good G-head casting, so the 782 I haven't paid that much attention to. I've always looked at that offset as core shift/ mass production casting quality, but even if it does have anything to do with swirl, you can throw it out the window unless you're looking for a very mild/ stockish type build.

For the area above the valve, I use a 6" bit with small ball end. small enough to fit nicely between guide and roof. Once I have the roof moved out where I want it, another 6" bit with tapered end to blend it back to guide if that makes any sense.

The pic (posted by Warren S. in the linked thread) will give you an idea of what you're looking for. Most "beginner" porters will not remove enough of the roof, but don't get too concerned about it being perfect. Even if you're just close you will still have a considerable improvement.

[Shadow]

While my porting was done....once..., but done really well by Tvalant..?? and that car made easily 350hp. Is it better to increase valve size 1st then port or its a part-n-partial thing I would guess..? OR does addressing the intake make even better sense? Just some spit-balling going on over here!

Intake, potential cam upgrade, operating rpm, valve size, C/R should all be considered Before porting begins. You can certainly do it in the reverse order, but that would kind of say that you're not sure what you're shooting for in the first place.

Having said that, and having time to think this over, 9/10 builds are prob not serious enough to warrant the kind of attention to detail I'm referring to, so you could certainly port the head first and have valves installed, then just make sure the rest is a good match. (ie. correct valve springs for cam with correct installed heights, make sure intake is not a restriction ect)

[trannybuster]

^^ Gotcha...what you say makes too much sense and we cant have that :) . As stated I had Tvalant port my head&increase valve size+ I ran custom two piece intake with 70mm TB with 3' intercooler piping....etc...etc... Now I never dyno'd it but that car was a beast and had I been a better tune guy it would have been way more fun and cheaper BUT NO ONE ever beat me on the street, was crazy fast GLHS. Now Id imagine someone gifted at tuning could have a stocker running silly! Sorry about dirtying up your thread Cordes....but Im 'interested' in what your doing!

[thedon809]

I'm glad you started this thread. I want to try porting a swirl head. I saved this from 5DIGITS before he made that weird thread about calibrations (still sad that nothing came of this) and went awol.
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1xSAVFee4sv15Yqmlm5YDV-XMJHmCqB2L

[johnl]

Basics I think I know - First, don't touch the floor, don't even gasket match the floor, if possible raise it. Second, raise the roof. Both of these ideas straighten the charge air's path as it nears the valve; this is more important than increasing port area - velocity; doing so enables more charge air to directly reach more of the valve's circumference. Third, no bumps, die grinders make bumps, bumps cause tumbling air; use files to take the bumps out. Files can be bent to follow curve ports by heating them to dark cherry red; do it in the dark, bend them gently, don't heat the teeth, heat the core. Fourth, valve job, valve job, valve job.

[cordes]

Is there any order in which you guys are removing material? I was thinking tonight that opening up the bowls first might help one to get a good idea of what to do on the way back to the port entrance. Thoughts on that? I'm going to buy a couple more bits and perhaps some abrasives. How do you guys get to the very top of the port around the guide to finish it?

[chromguy]

Is there any order in which you guys are removing material? I was thinking tonight that opening up the bowls first might help one to get a good idea of what to do on the way back to the port entrance. Thoughts on that? I'm going to buy a couple more bits and perhaps some abrasives. How do you guys get to the very top of the port around the guide to finish it?
I used a Dremel type tool with a remote motor for fine control.

[Shadow]

^^ Gotcha...what you say makes too much sense and we cant have that :) .

Actually the opposite! After posting that first bit, I thought about the head on the Charger that my bro Brent ported 15 years ago? (dang, has it really been That long!) and realized we didn't take anything into consideration back then. Just focused on porting the head to make more power!

So I figured, why should I be preaching what you should be doing, and making it sound like a sin if you Don't follow protocall, when we did the exact opposite all those years ago and with success.

So the Charger is actually an eg. of the 9/10 builds, Not serious enough to take all those things into consideration! :nod:


Basics I think I know - First, don't touch the floor, don't even gasket match the floor, if possible raise it. Second, raise the roof. Both of these ideas straighten the charge air's path as it nears the valve; this is more important than increasing port area - velocity; doing so enables more charge air to directly reach more of the valve's circumference. Third, no bumps, die grinders make bumps, bumps cause tumbling air; use files to take the bumps out. Files can be bent to follow curve ports by heating them to dark cherry red; do it in the dark, bend them gently, don't heat the teeth, heat the core. Fourth, valve job, valve job, valve job.

In theory, I would agree with pretty well everything you are saying here. Unfortunately, our heads only have so much usable space to work with, and you start to run out of real estate Fast! Not to mention the short turn radius that would be brutal to leave "as is".

eg. You want to build a 2.2 Big valve head with a .500 lift cam and make power above 6500rpm. (so High duration cam) You would have to take a significant amount of material out of the floor, because you can only go so high on the roof, so wide on the walls, and for that head to breath Efficiently, port size (area) > velocity!


Is there any order in which you guys are removing material? I was thinking tonight that opening up the bowls first might help one to get a good idea of what to do on the way back to the port entrance. Thoughts on that? I'm going to buy a couple more bits and perhaps some abrasives. How do you guys get to the very top of the port around the guide to finish it?

It's your baby, so you can go at it from whatever angle you feel most comfortable with ;) Starting with the bowl area first sounds Good to me :)

I prob have a dozen different size bits, including small dremel bits that can get in very tight spaces. I do all of the "rough" porting first, getting it as close as I can and as smooth as I can, then on to the sanding rolls for final finishing and blending. You can learn to trust the "feel" method, as your removing material, but the sanding rolls will Show you where you're high and lows are.

[cordes]

Thanks for the feedback. I did some more work last night raising the roof. I didn't bring home a camera, or I would post more pics. I ordered up a couple more bits yesterday, so I'm guessing there will be a lot more progress this weekend.

[Shadow]

I think the easiest way to think of porting is somewhat the same as choosing a cam;

According to valve size, where do you want your power to be? Do you want a head that has great out of boost drivability and low end power (velocity over volume) or do you want a top end screamer that makes max power at max lift and max rpm? (volume over velocity) Or something in the middle?


Bottom line is, just like a cam with a set profile, once the head is done, it's going to have a preferred operating range that can't be altered. An all out head that has max flow @ .600 lift would be waisted running a stock cam, just as a stock head running a .600 lift cam would be. This is where I've found the G-heads to be the best to work with for the novice, and I still consider myself a novice porter.

Port configuration is better right from the git go. Chamber is better as well for flow and higher rpm power, and you really can't go wrong with anything from a clean up to a fairly significant port job with +1mm valves. (just not much that can go wrong vs going any bigger)

Having said that, I have done a few 782's now and they are doable, just more work AFAIC.

Looking forward to you progress :)

[cordes]

Thanks again for all the replies everyone. Here are some progress pics. Note that' I'm experimenting with this junk head, so this is far from perfect. I have some more bits coming in the mail and I'll be looking at more polishing options too.

6376463765637666376763768

[Shadow]

Lookin Good!:thumb:

[thedon809]

Check out headgames motorworks YouTube page. They have some nice porting videos.

[masterjr33]

google cross buff pads.

work great for polishing.

[cordes]

Check out headgames motorworks YouTube page. They have some nice porting videos.

Thanks I'm looking at a video now, and it seems really good.


google cross buff pads.

work great for polishing.

Thanks. I've seen those before, and I think I'll give them a try.

[cordes]

A little more progress today. I got a couple new bits in the mail and thought I would try them out. They're longer, but they were really too long to grind without crazy chatter. I'm not sure if I need a grinder that'll go slower, or if I need to go faster. Either way, I cut them down some and they're perfect now. The small ball end piece that's about 1/4" diameter is awesome for working in the bowls. Thanks to Shadow for that suggestion. You can see that I've eaten up the valve guide pretty good. I think I'm going to knock the guide back into the head when I do the next runner.

I also attempted to deshroud the valves. I tried to mimic what I've seen on other heads. I'm not sure if this is too aggressive or not, but I thought it looked decent. It may not be entirely noticeable, but I also laid back the portion near the spark plug. I think I'm achieving a better result than the chamber next to it that I attempted to grind with whatever I had laying around approximately 20 years ago now.6376963770

[thedon809]

If you look at the picture I posted that 5digits noted on, he basically suggested turning a swirl head into a g head lol.

[Force Fed Mopar]

If you look at the picture I posted that 5digits noted on, he basically suggested turning a swirl head into a g head lol.

Actually, I remember the conclusion coming to be that the ideal head has characteristics from both. I think a pic of Warren Stramer's head was posted and his chambers are basically a hybrid of the swirl and the bathtub styles.

The problem with with the swirl head, I think (per conversation with 5DIGITS), is that it is too efficient per say. The higher the boost (ie more fuel/air charge) the faster the burn seems to be, and you run out of timing to pull out for pump gas. So the mods you do on the swirl head chamber are to slow that down. Bathtub chamber is sort of the opposite. The one 2.5 G-head cal I have done so far ended up working great with a lot of timing added in down low, indicating it is less efficient.

Port work theory is fairly similar though between the two though, I think.

[Shadow]

A little more progress today. I got a couple new bits in the mail and thought I would try them out. They're longer, but they were really too long to grind without crazy chatter. I'm not sure if I need a grinder that'll go slower, or if I need to go faster. Either way, I cut them down some and they're perfect now. The small ball end piece that's about 1/4" diameter is awesome for working in the bowls. Thanks to Shadow for that suggestion. You can see that I've eaten up the valve guide pretty good. I think I'm going to knock the guide back into the head when I do the next runner.

I also attempted to deshroud the valves. I tried to mimic what I've seen on other heads. I'm not sure if this is too aggressive or not, but I thought it looked decent. It may not be entirely noticeable, but I also laid back the portion near the spark plug. I think I'm achieving a better result than the chamber next to it that I attempted to grind with whatever I had laying around approximately 20 years ago now.6376963770

Yes, Much better looking chamber than the one next to it! :)

Don't have to go crazy around the plug area. I'd just smooth some of the hard edges for better transition.

You are entering what I would consider stage 2 porting now. Most would be fine with the last set of pics where you don't move the guides, but you get around them decently, removing all casting flash and generally having a smooth slightly enlarged port from flange to seat. (stage 1)

Knocking back the guides so you can raise the roof and work the area above the valve significantly more is starting to go a step beyond the beginner porter and once you get comfortable with it, the sky's the limit ;)

You may want to consider your intake at this point, picturing the complete runner tract, from intake all the way to seat. Understanding that you are trying to achieve a gradual taper all the way.

[cordes]

Thanks again for the notes everyone. I'll keep working on this and posting pictures as I progress. I've learned a ton by doing this so far, and I'd like to continue in that direction.

In regard to the intake, I think I've got a very good base there from what I can tell. I'll need to have the hole I put in the upper half of the plenum welded up. I'll have the lower portion welded at the same time so I can port the rest of the lower, and that should be good to go.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?82122-Two-Piece-Porting&p=1143609&viewfull=1#post1143609

[4 l-bodies]

Brian,
Are you using any grease on your carbide bits? It helps keep them clean and helps with chatter. Quickest way to kill a carbide bit is letting it chatter or overheat. BTW are you using ferrous or non-ferrous burrs? I use a Amsoil grease with a very high melting point, but any high temp all purpose grease will do. Some people use tallow. You made a comment earlier about speed of your tool. Isn't the speed variable on your tool?
Didn't see any pics of the short turn area? This area is very flow sensitive and important. The factory short turn isn't very good IMO. Lots to improve there. Your making progress for sure. Attempted any exhaust work yet? Lots of work to do on those.
Todd

[cordes]

I've been using bits such as these:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0080LE3BS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm spraying WD-40 on them while I'm porting. I have a variable speed Metabo die grinder which I run at its lowest speed. It can be seen here:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FDLB9O2/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have attempted to smooth out the short turn. I'll try to get some pictures of that. It feels pretty good to my finger, but I know little to nothing of the subject at hand. In regard to the exhaust, I've opened it up to the gasket on the sides and top, while smoothing that back toward the bowl. I've just started on the bowl, but it seems to me that I'll need to knock the valve stems back to get in there at all. I'll try to get more pictures of this and post up.

[4 l-bodies]

Your link is showing a ferrous burr. Yes you can use them on aluminum, but the non ferrous burrs work a lot better and faster on aluminum. I use an oval burr like pictured for the vast majority of my porting. Probably do 85% or more with this one burr (albeit a slightly longer shank one).
Probably the best thing I ever did to improve my porting skills was to build device so I can mount the cylinder head (or whatever I'm porting) and rotate it anywhere I need. No longer standing on my head (or knees) to port. I can sit comfortably on a chair or stand and port without much fatigue. Can rotate whatever your porting quickly and effortlessly wherever you want. Can't stress how much this helped me.
Just skimmed through this thread but I'm not hearing too much about straightening ports. That is important. If your not going to buy an internal dial caliper gauge or inside dividers to measure the ports, at least make up some sheet metal plates that you stick into ports to check your pinch points. I never use flat files like John suggested, but only rotary files (carbide rotary files or burrs), but the point is well taken as inexperienced porters can get that wave thing happening easily in ports. That is the beauty of practicing on junk heads.
So my biggest ? is going to be, are you going to flowbench anything to measure improvements or setbacks?
Todd

[cordes]

Thanks for the tips on the burrs. I'll be on the lookout for some non ferrous burrs in the future. That's a pretty sweet fixture you built to move the head around. Do you bolt the AC bracket area to that?

I have an internal divider to use, along with a compass.

In regard to flowbenching the head, I'm not aware of any place around here which does that. I could ask around, but it would probably be an hour drive one way if I had to guess. Shipping would most likely make it cost prohibitive. I've read of guys making them years ago. Is that a viable option?

[4 l-bodies]

Yes in the case of 2.2/2.5 heads I bolt to the AC boss. I've been porting some LT5 (90-95 ZR1) heads, injector housings, and intake manifolds lately. LS heads too. They all can bolt up in a minute or two. I also made another fixture to easily fasten a Masi 16V head. I can just rotate it around to port intake, exhaust or chambers w/o moving fixture. I have another complete fixture I bolt to the end of a stainless bench I have on wheels. All my porting equipment is self contained in the drawers, so I can move outdoors or wherever I want to port. I use that one a bunch outdoors when the weather is nice. Natural light is always nice. Cleanup is a breeze too.
Another thing I recommend if you start doing more porting is to buy a burette so you can measure port volumes of chambers and ports. Some of the more sophisticated ECU's can detect chamber volume mismatches and start throwing codes if off by a single cc or so (one chamber to another). We obviously don't need to worry about that, but it is good to have chambers and runners balanced.
BTW- Most definitely need to knock guides out (or up) to port roofs on the exhaust side if you want to get good flow from exhaust. I knock them all the way out so I can use the guide hole to measure how much material I've removed. That entire machined area around guide can then be removed on the exhaust side. Then aero the guide in lathe or drill press before install. Be careful of the small waterjacket about 1/2" downstream of the guide on the roof of the exhaust (on a head you care about). My suggestion since you are working on junk heads at the moment, is to intentionally break through to the waterjacket on one cylinder you don't care about so you know how far down waterjacket is and where it is located.
Keep up the good work!
Todd

[cordes]

Thanks for all the tips Todd. I'll look into a burette. It would be pretty sweet to make a nice rotation device too. Looks like I really need to get some welding skills.

[cordes]

OK, I've ordered up a burette, but I'll probably just use the ones at work anyway...

Here are some more pictures. I did a tad more porting in the intake today. I have a lot of contour work to go to say the least IMO. I was surprised that everything seems to be going fairly smoothly though. I think with a few more hours of work this might at least look decent. The flow would be nice too though.

I also checked the internet to see what a flowbench costs. I now realize why guys want to charge $40-$50 to put anything on them. All of the homemade jobs I've seen so far don't look like they would produce repeatable results IMO.

6377663777637786377963780637816378263783

[iTurbo]

Sorry to go off topic, but that would be neat to see some LT5 ZR1 heads. Are they at all like the TIII? Both Lotus designed from about the same era?

As a kid, I drooled over those, but I have never even seen one personally.

[Reaper1]

Cordes, for longer bits, get a piece of plastic tube or hose to slip over the shank. Now you have a protector on the shank and you can hold/direct the bit to help prevent chatter.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Sorry to go off topic, but that would be neat to see some LT5 ZR1 heads. Are they at all like the TIII? Both Lotus designed from about the same era?

As a kid, I drooled over those, but I have never even seen one personally.

Friends dad had/maybe still has a green ZR1. They used to AutoX it. Got to ride in it to the gas station once. Feels like a 90's chevy product with more power. I'll take my dad's 1970 911 over it any day though :)

[cordes]

Cordes, for longer bits, get a piece of plastic tube or hose to slip over the shank. Now you have a protector on the shank and you can hold/direct the bit to help prevent chatter.

Thanks for the tip. I'll certainly try that one.

[cordes]

I made some more progress today. I've decided to make this set of runners pretty large. On the intake side they are 1.5" or better where the guide is so far as I can tell. I'm about .04" larger than the gasket width wise on the intake runner. I'm a little disappointed that I am wider than the gasket by that much, but live and learn I guess. I've raised the roof quite a bit, and put some work into the exhaust runner. I laid the short turn back some on the exhaust and lowered the floor at the face of the head there too. I'll probably try to raise the intake port some more, as the top drops down relative to the floor a little too fast as the floor moves toward the bowl. I haven't really touched the floor of the intake port with the exception of smoothing back the short turn radius.

I ordered some cross buff pieces and I will be giving those a shot next. All in all, this has been fun. I'm eager to give this a shot on an actual head and see the results.

638006379963798

[masterjr33]

the chamber work on this one . the relief. looks really good.

[cordes]

Thanks. I'm actually pretty excited to see what it will look like with the ports cleaned up. I was just hogging out a lot of metal today to see what would happen.

[thedon809]

I gotta get an actual tool. I port matched my 2 piece lower to my phenolic spacer with a Dremel and that was a nightmare LOL.

- - - Updated - - -

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1qz8Cz-4Z0GPXdy2cAdp95B6zvwPl7rEL

[masterjr33]

are you doing that in the car? on the engine?

[thedon809]

are you doing that in the car? on the engine?Sure did. I did it a while ago. Stuffed rags in the ports and sucked out the dust with a shop vac.

[supercrackerbox]

Sure did. I did it a while ago. Stuffed rags in the ports and sucked out the dust with a shop vac.

I might suggest a couple alignment dowels that pass through the lower piece, spacer, and top piece, so when it's all done you don't have to worry about them shifting as you bolt the top back on.

[thedon809]

I might suggest a couple alignment dowels that pass through the lower piece, spacer, and top piece, so when it's all done you don't have to worry about them shifting as you bolt the top back on.I thought about that, but I'm lazy. I just eyeballed it best I could while looking through the TB opening on my lengel. When I pull the head eventually I'll probably do that.

[4 l-bodies]

I gotta get an actual tool. I port matched my 2 piece lower to my phenolic spacer with a Dremel and that was a nightmare LOL.
I agree, life is WAY too short to be porting with a Dremel. Now that you got the top half taken care of as far as heat goes, have you done anything with the bottom half? Mine is pretty well insulated from the exhaust manifold.
Todd

[thedon809]

I agree, life is WAY too short to be porting with a Dremel. Now that you got the top half taken care of as far as heat goes, have you done anything with the bottom half? Mine is pretty well insulated from the exhaust manifold.
ToddNah. Haven't done that yet. I'm going to port a head myself eventually. When that day comes I'll do something similar and also do a turbo blanket. Although I've read the turbo blankets don't last all that long. I have a f5 camshaft waiting to go in also.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

Nah. Haven't done that yet. I'm going to port a head myself eventually. When that day comes I'll do something similar and also do a turbo blanket. Although I've read the turbo blankets don't last all that long. I have a f5 camshaft waiting to go in also.

noting I've read here , or TD, turbo blankets can promote cracking of turbine and center housings ...
just saying , I have no personal basis for the statement

and I've seen my swing valve casting still glowing BRIGHT cherry red 45-60 seconds after a hard pull up the hill in front of my house

at the crest of the hill it probably would have been invisible from the heat in it

[cordes]

Where is everyone getting their cross buffs? I see prices all over the place for these things.

[masterjr33]

grabbed mine from amazon or ebay. dont remember.
they door burn down so get a 10 pack or more.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xcross +buff.TRS0&_nkw=cross+buff

FYI.. you can also get some nice bottle hones . in just about any size.

https://www.facebook.com/justin.foden/videos/pcb.789308514569581/1519451528066995/?type=3&theater&ifg=1

[cordes]

Thanks for the links. I'm having better luck on ebay than elsewhere.

[johnl]

Bottle brushes and buffs may mask undulations; files straighten walls.

[cordes]

These cross buff things are pretty amazing. I did a few hours worth of work tonight and was able to experiment with another intake runner. I have the roof pretty high, and I stayed much narrower through the port, which I think it by far the way to go. The next step is to make things even from port to port. That will probably be on the next junk head. After that, I'll be ready for the real deal I think.

Does anyone have a tool to knock the valve guides back into the head? I'm assuming someone makes a punch with a slave portion of the right diameter.

[masterjr33]

those cross buffs are awesome.

I normally have the shops do my guides. I normally have the locking ones installed. these things do like to drop guides now and then. especially on the exhaust side. at least for me.

[4 l-bodies]

These cross buff things are pretty amazing. I did a few hours worth of work tonight and was able to experiment with another intake runner. I have the roof pretty high, and I stayed much narrower through the port, which I think it by far the way to go. The next step is to make things even from port to port. That will probably be on the next junk head. After that, I'll be ready for the real deal I think.

Does anyone have a tool to knock the valve guides back into the head? I'm assuming someone makes a punch with a slave portion of the right diameter.
Brian,
Here you go. Goodson PH-2228a-g is what you want
https://goodson.com/products/sae-powered-drivers
Todd

[cordes]

Thanks Todd.

[cordes]

Alright. I'm on head #2 now. With this one, I'm trying to keep my process the same from port to port. I've deshrouded the valves and clearly need a better way to mark that. I think I need to put a dimple in a valve and use a compass to score the head. The intake runners will be raised very much and opened on the top and sides to the gasket. The exhaust will be opened to the gasket all around, but the short turn will just be blended and not lowered much.

Now for some questions. Where are you guys getting your burrs? I wrecked one today getting caught on a burr and losing control of it. I can't seem to find something which is of known quality for the money. They seem like a crap shoot whether it's going to be a quality US made product, or some Chinese piece of junk being sold at domestic manufacture cost.

How are you guys measuring the ports? I have an internal caliper divider, but the ports seem to just get wider as you get toward the bowl. Even removing as little material as possible inside the port on the sides, it seems impossible to take actual measurements if you have to remove the tool from the port to do so? I'm thinking I must be doing it wrong.

[masterjr33]

google - Inside caliper tool.
Thats what i have been using. Measuring how deep i have the tool.
I actually scribbed all of mine with 1/8th inch marks so i can consistantly go to the same depth.



my bits have been hit or miss as well.

[cordes]

This is what I have. I guess I could make lines on it and measure that at the port? I just fear my whole process on this is off.

https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjYwWDg4MA==/z/~XAAAOSw81lcfs5F/$_12.JPG?set_id=880000500F

[The Pope]

My calipers I use to measure with are pretty sharp. I do a 1/4" curve and lay back the chamber that way

[masterjr33]

mark the calipers you have for depth with a dremel or awl.

make sure they all have the same width at the same depth.


you could also try making molds.
https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2006/12/MakingMolds/

http://www.diyporting.com/molds.html

[cordes]

My calipers I use to measure with are pretty sharp. I do a 1/4" curve and lay back the chamber that way

1/4" from the edge of the stock valve when level to the face of the head, or 1/4" back from the stock curve at the face of the head?


mark the calipers you have for depth with a dremel or awl.

make sure they all have the same width at the same depth.


you could also try making molds.
https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2006/12/MakingMolds/

http://www.diyporting.com/molds.html

That's a good idea. I could make a couple of key measurement points and then do that. Thanks for that idea.

[johnl]

Cut templates out of cardboard. One for X axis, second for Y axis. Play with ports and the templates. When you're happy with shapes, recut em out of metal, slit dowels to make handles; now you can go - no go in an instant with one hand and get all four ports nearly identical three dimensionally.

[cordes]

I've been at it again while cooped up in the house due to this virus. I'm trying to take it pretty easy on my first head while doing something I think will hopefully flow really well. This is my first time doing a head that will count for something so I'm trying not to rush. I couldn't be happier that I started this thread and practiced up quite a bit on a few other heads before setting to work on the one that will be for points.

My main concern now is getting new seats installed for the larger valves I don't have. I should also replace the springs and perhaps retainers with something else. Any recommendations for that portion of the job?

[Aries_Turbo]

I should also replace the springs and perhaps retainers with something else. Any recommendations for that portion of the job?

comp 942. stock retainer. mp hardened keepers.

Brian

[4 l-bodies]

... I should also replace the springs and perhaps retainers with something else. Any recommendations for that portion of the job?

Brian,
If your going with conicals for spring choice, listed below is what I would recommend. If your going to run 942 Comp springs, do what the other Brian (Aries_Turbo) recommends. The Comp 26995 conicals is what I use when choosing conicals. I don't use the Mopar conicals as you have to shim them up so much to get desired closed pressure. It doesn't leave much for headroom before coil bind if running any cam with more than stock lift.

This was cut and paste I wrote to another on TD.

In a perfect situation, you would have custom made valves machined with a beadlock valve lock groove, and not a square cut groove. That way you could run LS beadlock locks, retainers, and springs. All perfectly matched. Goes together like peas and carrots (hehe).

So running conicals, you need to choose your poison, run a 8° valve lock in a 7° retainer, or run a 7° 5/16" valve lock in a 7° LS retainer.

Running conicals, if your running stock valves with multi groove exhaust locks, you're gonna have to use the 8° Mopar locks running in 7° retainers. Many aftermarket valves made for our engines, (not all) use a single groove exhaust valve and not a multi groove lock like Mopar uses.

For those looking at this in the future, the Manley stamped 5/16" 7° valve locks # 13238-16 fit really nice on LS or 774 Comp cam conical retainer. IMO, fit better than running 8° Chrysler locks on a 7° retainer. I haven't tried the Howard Cams stamped locks # 93020 yet, but suspect they will fit good too. IMO, I wouldn't run machined 5/16" valve locks on a 8mm valve like what we use for our engines. They just don't fit very good. I've tried many, many, 5/16" machined valve locks on 8mm valves, and haven't found one I like yet.
Todd

[chromguy]

comp 942. stock retainer. mp hardened keepers.

Brian
Do you have part numbers for the MP hardened keepers?

[Aries_Turbo]

Do you have part numbers for the MP hardened keepers?

P4452031 intake

P4452030 exhaust

cindy should have them in stock.

most places have the exhaust ones in stock. the intake have been backordered since like last year but should be in stock in a few days.

Brian

[Ondonti]

I am really into Beehive springs, and wrong keepers with scary trimming have held 8500 rpms on a big cam for me. Still scared.

[4 l-bodies]

I am really into Beehive springs, and wrong keepers with scary trimming have held 8500 rpms on a big cam for me. Still scared.


Can't tell if this is sarcasm or not?
I realize your talking 3.0 here Brent, but who besides Warren is actually running a BIG camshaft in their 8V SOHC 2.2/2.5? I also remember Boost geek had one of LRE's old .540" NA hydraulic camshafts not big duration @ 226 @ .050. Other than that, anyone else running anything considered a large camshaft? Beehives have limitations, but they're fine for our wimpy grinds for our applications. I don't consider the F4 or R5 with 235/220 duration @ .050 to be big camshafts.
Todd

[cordes]

Speaking of cams, it seems like I should decide on a cam before deciding on springs. I would like a jack of all trades, master of none type of cam. I like to autocross, hit the drag strip on occasion, and I love long road trips. Any suggestions for a best bet?

[4 l-bodies]

Speaking of cams, it seems like I should decide on a cam before deciding on springs. I would like a jack of all trades, master of none type of cam. I like to autocross, hit the drag strip on occasion, and I love long road trips. Any suggestions for a best bet?
I would start my search with what camshafts are currently available. Seems like sort of slim pickens to me. Don't know what all is stock (if any) these days from vendors. The S2+ camshaft was/is a nice all around camshaft for a HP street car. Works well with ported head, intake, exhaust manifolds, and larger turbo. Plenty of camshaft to easily get stout 2.2's into the 11's and still have great driveability. Probably a complete waste of money on a bone stock top end of engine though. It is a little hotter camshaft than the original S-60, esp. on the intake side. That would be my first suggestion.
Todd

[Aries_Turbo]

hey todd, question about the 942's. do you leave the damper spring in or do you just run the main spring.

It looks a little tight in there with the damper spring.

Brian

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

I'd be interested in hearing the different experiences peeps have had with different cams

..THAT WOULD help with making choices

I've run the MP 314 cams in ALL my 2.2's over the years
there's really no difference to be felt on a flat road .. not until I pointed it up hill
then .. holey ssssh....

so loading the vehicle has an effect when you put a cam in .. a light car might not show so much improvement

first pic below shows the section of road my cam worked on .. REALLY WELL
top of the dead tree shows what would be "level" from the camera's pov

inside corner , coming up is a 25 mph turn at the maximum
stock cam would crest the hill , about the same distance behind the camera's pov at 50 mph

the 314 cam got me over the top at 75 .. AND I was HAVING TO HOLD IT BACK as the road tweeks left at the top with a three foot deep ditch on the right .. so 75 IS the fastest you can go over the top..85 or 90 would probably have been easily done otherwise .. SERIOUSLY

(added a couple just to show steepness)

pics don't do that hill justice .. consider the height from the bridge to the top of the cliff

& my house was 30 seconds from the top.. opening the hood the turbine housing would still be cherry red .. probably see through as I crest the hill .. no ,not kidding

not my vid .. not my music (LOL) - ends with the hill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6CFgGSRvqA
I'd start wide open down hill to the hairpin ,, across the bridge and over the hump (two valleys) , down the hill to a 25 mph right turn and the straight run to the bridge (crossed that once , ONCE at 115 mph .. not doing it again as the road drops after the bridge and there's NO BRAKES until the first left turn on the hill..

nurburgring..you ARE a go kart track compared to my neighborhood ...

[4 l-bodies]

hey todd, question about the 942's. do you leave the damper spring in or do you just run the main spring.

It looks a little tight in there with the damper spring.

Brian

I always run the damper spring. Supposed to help with harmonics. I did test pressures with and without damper though at some point. IIRC w/o looking, it wasn't much different w or w/o damper. What I always check carefully is valvelock or retainer (whatever is hanging lower) and valve seal clearance. Pretty tight with .500+" camshafts. It helps considerably if you can order valves with groove lock cut around .315 to .330 instead of factory .360-.370". That also helps to easily get spring heights around 1.700+" and helps out with lower closed pressure. Haven't yet found +.050 LS retainers or +.050 stamped 5/16" valve locks. I literally have 1700 -.060 stamped hardened keepers. Easy to identify by their green color. Enough for 200+ heads! Enough for a few lifetimes... Anyone need any? Hehe.
Todd

[Aries_Turbo]

I always run the damper spring. Supposed to help with harmonics. I did test pressures with and without damper though at some point. IIRC w/o looking, it wasn't much different w or w/o damper. What I always check carefully is valvelock or retainer (whatever is hanging lower) and valve seal clearance. Pretty tight with .500+" camshafts. It helps considerably if you can order valves with groove lock cut around .315 to .330 instead of factory .360-.370". That also helps to easily get spring heights around 1.700+" and helps out with lower closed pressure. Haven't yet found +.050 LS retainers or +.050 stamped 5/16" valve locks. I literally have 1700 -.060 stamped hardened keepers. Easy to identify by their green color. Enough for 200+ heads! Enough for a few lifetimes... Anyone need any? Hehe.
Todd

Thanks! I have them installed on my head but i havent ran the combo yet.... soon though. I still have a stock cam so it should clear with ease :)

Brian

[thedon809]

Started trying to port my head.
Stock
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1TGaJZNJpozT8En-MU2-OvNauvaP-mRo8
Cleaned up short turns and throat.
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1TGAL--A1Xdx1zX8q1bPdOe7msvhnNzeV
Little deshrouding.
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1TGnOvthZFm6qYxqEVDxZGk6CrsShN6QO

[cordes]

Good for you. I'm waiting on some new cartridge roll mandrels to finish off mine. I'll post up some pics when I'm done to see whether or not I should bother with buying valves, etc. So far, I think it's goind well.

In regard to your head, how did you measure how far you laid back the portion of the chamber on the spark plug side? Were you basing that off of any head pics you've seen at all?

[thedon809]

Good for you. I'm waiting on some new cartridge roll mandrels to finish off mine. I'll post up some pics when I'm done to see whether or not I should bother with buying valves, etc. So far, I think it's goind well.

In regard to your head, how did you measure how far you laid back the portion of the chamber on the spark plug side? Were you basing that off of any head pics you've seen at all?Stock, it's kind of a straight line. I more or less grinded just enough to get a radius. This picture I posted on the first page of the thread is what I'm basing it off of. Ken aka 5digits posted this. I trust his knowledge. Obviously I ain't welding and filling the other area though. https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1TNQdnluBCXI70ZuSVQzdu_tzcZbMRPfQ

[cordes]

Thanks. I'm going to deshroud opposite the spark plug side, as I've read quite a bit of description of the measurements involved. I've seen a ton of heads which leave the spark plug area fairly stock, so I'll probably go that route as I don't know that I'll have the skill with my current knowledge to do something repeatable to each chamber.

[thedon809]

Up to this point I have done everything with a corded Dremel. Not ideal to say the least, but it works. Problem is you can't really use long bits. Then I remembered I already have a die grinder so I ordered some burrs and mandrels.https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1TaZlA8n1YrOlDMt-LnoEmwBpjnIaMpKS

[cordes]

That's great. I can't imagine doing all of this with a dremel. I am hoping my mandrels come in sooner than later.

[thedon809]

Here's a look at a CNC ported ls3 chamber for reference. Obviously not 100% applicable to our heads but it has some similarities with a 782 chamber. Would not look much different if the hump next to our spark plug was ground almost all the way off.https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1TquxrwRyoVMhvPhAVYD5YDuny3tZ1kTf

[cordes]

Thanks for the pic. I can seem some similarities for sure.

[4 l-bodies]

This is typical of what my big valve swirl chambers look like.
Todd

[cordes]

Thanks Todd. Do you make a template for the deshrouding and transfer it to the head, or do you measure and scribe lines with a compass or some such?

[chromguy]

This is typical of what my big valve swirl chambers look like.
Todd
She sure is pretty.....

[4 l-bodies]

Thanks Todd. Do you make a template for the deshrouding and transfer it to the head, or do you measure and scribe lines with a compass or some such?

Yes I do have templates for BV, +1mm valve, std. valve, and of course G-head. I do also use dye and scribe lines too. Ultimately measure chambers and ports with burette. Here is a +1mm G-head that I did recently. Notice the soft edges to avoid hot spots in chamber? Probably can also see the faint lines of combustion chamber fire ring. This one flows like a very good BV head. I was going to put this one on my bone stock 50K survivor GLHT, but what a waste of a cylinder head being choked off by that crappy log manifold (lol)!
Added picture of stock NOS G-head. What's cool about this one is crossdrilled g-head (huh)?
Todd

[cordes]

Thanks again Todd. This has been an incredibly informative thread.

[4 l-bodies]

Thanks again Todd. This has been an incredibly informative thread.

Sure glad to offer input. Porting is fun but can be very tedious. I've been porting some Corvette 90-95 ZR-1 heads lately. 32 valves, matching injector housings, intake manifold runners, all that port matching. Yikes!!! REALLY time consuming... pretty big gains to be had even in naturally aspirated mode.
Todd

[thedon809]

My ghetto way of getting them close to the same.
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1UeEcXB7gQbKp5euOLLh4LQAKCxox1OV6

[cordes]

That seems like it would be a good way to go. On my practice head, I used a compass.

[thedon809]

What diameter and grit cross buff do y'all use for the exhaust ports?

[4 l-bodies]

What diameter and grit cross buff do y'all use for the exhaust ports?
If your asking me, I don't use cross buffs.
Todd

[thedon809]

More or less my completed chamber. Now that I know what to do it'll take me a lot less time to do the others. I don't understand why it keeps posting the picture sideways. Annoying.
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1Vh3Xl8eAfapXIOCunasuQP8HbUWfa1Tg

[4 l-bodies]

Looks good! Now to the throat and short/long turn areas under those valves, and straightening out those ports where needed.
Todd

[thedon809]

Already did the ports. Just kinda cleaned them up, smoothed them but didn't change shape really.

[4 l-bodies]

Already did the ports. Just kinda cleaned them up, smoothed them but didn't change shape really.

The short turn area needs plenty of fixin. Flow is very low in this area, but very sensitive.
Todd

[thedon809]

The short turn area needs plenty of fixin. Flow is very low in this area, but very sensitive.
ToddThe sensitivity part is why I didn't go crazy. Just as easy to make it worse as it is to make it better when you don't know what you are doing. I definitely fall into the don't know what I'm doing category lol.

[Reaper1]

Sure glad to offer input. Porting is fun but can be very tedious. I've been porting some Corvette 90-95 ZR-1 heads lately. 32 valves, matching injector housings, intake manifold runners, all that port matching. Yikes!!! REALLY time consuming... pretty big gains to be had even in naturally aspirated mode.
Todd

Kinda like porting 2 Masi's from what I've seen...

[4 l-bodies]

Kinda like porting 2 Masi's from what I've seen...
Sort of. There are 64 holes alone to match port, then you have to port the darn things! The injector housings take a lot of time to port properly. Then of course you hope you don't hit water or PCV passages. That would suck to have to buy cores if you went through in a bad spot you couldn't weld up. They can't be cheap.
Look at the size of those secondary injector bungs! Covers up like 30% of the port. What were they thinking? No wonder these cars pick up so much HP from porting the intake tract.
Todd

[Reaper1]

Wow! That's some of the best pictures of those I've seen. I had no idea they were that bad. I presume that the reason they had one port smaller than the other was to try and induce a velocity difference between the 2 valves to get more swirl/tumble in the chamber? But yeah, easy to see why they can pick up so much.

The Masi isn't quite that bad, but it certainly can use some attention in the intake manifold. More than I initially thought, for sure!

[thedon809]

Todd, how much does you typical swirl chamber job increase the chamber volume? I ordered a cheap volume checker but I'm just curious. What's the volume of a stock g head and swirl head? Dodge garage says the swirl is 6cc's smaller. I'm just kinda worried how much it'll lower compression.

[thedon809]

So far, these are my weapons of choice. The bit that's on the die grinder will chew through aluminum in short order. Literally minutes to deshroud the valves 90%.https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1XLv8KIXS9FNlXoVmznB5667tzAQMCc2V

[4 l-bodies]

Todd, how much does you typical swirl chamber job increase the chamber volume? I ordered a cheap volume checker but I'm just curious. What's the volume of a stock g head and swirl head? Dodge garage says the swirl is 6cc's smaller. I'm just kinda worried how much it'll lower compression.
It really doesn't increase it as much as one would think. I would say maybe 3cc or so using stock valves. I say this because I almost always use a custom Manley valve that decreases the chamber due to the design style of the valve. They are much less concave than the factory valve, so I'm gaining some volume back on what I lost de-shrouding. Sometimes after .006-.010 surface cut, I end up being the same or slightly less than a stock swirl. So around 49-50cc after resurfacing.
On the g-head pictured. I removed a lot from the chamber. I ended up having a intentional .015 surface cut made to decrease chamber volume. On this head, I ended up at 57.8cc. Stock is about 1cc less. I aim for chambers and port volumes within .2cc of each other.

Here are stock NOS casting cc's for swirl and g-head.
Swirl
Chamber 50.4- 51cc
Intake 72.8-74cc
Exhaust 56cc
2.2 piston dish 14.5cc
2.5 piston dish 27.5
2.2 compression ratio 8.06:1 - 8.10:1
2.5 compression ratio 7.84:1 - 7.87:1

445 & 287 G-head
Chamber 56.6cc
Intake 84.2cc
Exhaust 59.6cc
2.2 piston dish 9cc
2.2 compression ratio 8.06:1 - 8.10:1

[4 l-bodies]

So far, these are my weapons of choice. The bit that's on the die grinder will chew through aluminum in short order. Literally minutes to deshroud the valves 90%.https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1XLv8KIXS9FNlXoVmznB5667tzAQMCc2V
I know Steve Menegon typically uses a powerful electric grinder, I use a few different air powered die grinders. There is a huge difference in noise and vibration (or lack of it) when you get into some of the better die grinders. I won't use cheap die grinders anymore. As I've stated many times before, life is too short to port a cylinder head with a 1/8" Dremel (lol).
Todd

[thedon809]

The Dremel is great for getting in the small areas that need just a little touch up and when you need more precision. This particular Dremel maintains the same RPM regardless of load. The blue point grinder works ok. The trigger is harder to smoothly control. Good that compression won't drop too much. Are the custom valves you get +1's or big valves?

[4 l-bodies]

Are the custom valves you get +1's or big valves?
Yes both. The g-head pictured used +1mm intake valves from MP. Nothing special there. I used them because I had them on hand. The MP exhaust valves were BV G-head valves (1.450") reduced in diameter to 1.430" so they would fit in stock seats.
Todd

[thedon809]

Well, more or less done with my first ever attempt at porting. Thoughts and criticisms? https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1XetONteNzyJr6MAb1-HYCEEh7wr9mdOo

[Shadow]

Hard to tell a # of things because I can't enlarge pick, but from the looks of it, you haven't reached the edge of the cyl yet, so some extra flow there for sure.

Did you have "throw away" valves dropped onto seats while you were doing the porting in chambers? Looks like a number of seats are nicked up, but again, hard to tell from pic if that's actually the case.

Need to get in there with some sanding rolls and smooth things out. You should finish up one chamber, smoothed, radius'd and as good as you feel you can get it. Then cc chamber, then rinse/ repeat.

Keep track of your #'s and you can go back and forth till they are all close.

[thedon809]

Hard to tell a # of things because I can't enlarge pick, but from the looks of it, you haven't reached the edge of the cyl yet, so some extra flow there for sure.

Did you have "throw away" valves dropped onto seats while you were doing the porting in chambers? Looks like a number of seats are nicked up, but again, hard to tell from pic if that's actually the case.

Need to get in there with some sanding rolls and smooth things out. You should finish up one chamber, smoothed, radius'd and as good as you feel you can get it. Then cc chamber, then rinse/ repeat.

Keep track of your #'s and you can go back and forth till they are all close.Seats are just dirty and/or metal dust on them. That's the hardest damn part though. Not hitting the seats.
You mean radius this edge?https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1YJIcj8DiOOqoYjF0cA7ahsC0gse5Ry1K

[Shadow]

Seats are just dirty and/or metal dust on them. That's the hardest damn part though. Not hitting the seats.
You mean radius this edge?https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1YJIcj8DiOOqoYjF0cA7ahsC0gse5Ry1K

I do all the roughing out with a set of scrap valves in place to protect seats. Then when I'm close, I remove valves and use fine bit to remove hard edge of casting just outside of seat area and insure nice radius transition to head/ deck.

Again, hard to tell in pics but looks like a pretty straight transition (flatish) from outside of seat to head/ deck surface. You want a nice radius in there for flow Around valve.

[thedon809]

I do all the roughing out with a set of scrap valves in place to protect seats. Then when I'm close, I remove valves and use fine bit to remove hard edge of casting just outside of seat area and insure nice radius transition to head/ deck.

Again, hard to tell in pics but looks like a pretty straight transition (flatish) from outside of seat to head/ deck surface. You want a nice radius in there for flow Around valve.Oh yeah. That bit is tough. I do have a set of junk valves I used that I ground thinner to make it a little easier to grind around them. Pic might not show it good enough but I tried to radius the chamber next to the seat as best as I could. I have another head that's junk that I will practice that part more. I did radius the edge from where I deshrouded the valves but I could do even more if it would be better.https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1YRc21MLPaBqI-uQU3jiw_QRBymEyOTL8

[thedon809]

I just realized my phone has a super macro mode and does close pics pretty good.https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1YSMojDOrfKYOrsdB73kdx7014OX_9NRL

[4 l-bodies]

Don you can also use a good synthetic grease on your bits and sanding rolls. This makes your carbide bits and abrasives less aggressive and helps bits with heat. Any grease will do, I use a Amsoil product as it has a very high burning/smoking point. Some even use tallow.
PS- You can also use ferrous carbide bits on your aluminum head. Used with grease they work well in getting things smoothed out. Obviously use the non-ferrous bits for faster removal.
Todd

[thedon809]

Thanks for the tips. Between you guys and the hours of YouTube videos I've watched, I'm learning a lot.

[thedon809]

Getting started on another head I have. What do y'all think about my scribe lines? Too far, too close to the valve?https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1Zi3nuPypSGSLM0JiC5-TlgTu-n_CZvPl

[cordes]

That's much more than what I did on my practice head. I forget what the suggested measurements were, but I went on the low side of them. I want to say I laid the eyebrows back less than a 1/4" from the edge of the valve when it protrudes to be even with the surface of the head.

[thedon809]

That's much more than what I did on my practice head. I forget what the suggested measurements were, but I went on the low side of them. I want to say I laid the eyebrows back less than a 1/4" from the edge of the valve when it protrudes to be even with the surface of the head.Using the ole eyeballs I think it's pretty similar to the one Todd posted in post #91.

[4 l-bodies]

Getting started on another head I have. What do y'all think about my scribe lines? Too far, too close to the valve?https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1Zi3nuPypSGSLM0JiC5-TlgTu-n_CZvPl
IMO, it sort of depends a bunch on what size valve you planned to run. 44/37mm valves are quite different than stock 40.6/35.3 valves.
Todd

[thedon809]

IMO, it sort of depends a bunch on what size valve you planned to run. 44/37mm valves are quite different than stock 40.6/35.3 valves.
ToddThink I'll be going with +1's for this head. I probably won't take it as far as the scribe marks. I'm debating on tossing the first head on there and run it or port this one and use it. Only problem with this one is I'll need to get it machined for the +1's and new guides. Our only decent machinest retired.

[thedon809]

It really doesn't increase it as much as one would think. I would say maybe 3cc or so using stock valves. I say this because I almost always use a custom Manley valve that decreases the chamber due to the design style of the valve. They are much less concave than the factory valve, so I'm gaining some volume back on what I lost de-shrouding. Sometimes after .006-.010 surface cut, I end up being the same or slightly less than a stock swirl. So around 49-50cc after resurfacing.
On the g-head pictured. I removed a lot from the chamber. I ended up having a intentional .015 surface cut made to decrease chamber volume. On this head, I ended up at 57.8cc. Stock is about 1cc less. I aim for chambers and port volumes within .2cc of each other.

Here are stock NOS casting cc's for swirl and g-head.
Swirl
Chamber 50.4- 51cc
Intake 72.8-74cc
Exhaust 56cc
2.2 piston dish 14.5cc
2.5 piston dish 27.5
2.2 compression ratio 8.06:1 - 8.10:1
2.5 compression ratio 7.84:1 - 7.87:1

445 & 287 G-head
Chamber 56.6cc
Intake 84.2cc
Exhaust 59.6cc
2.2 piston dish 9cc
2.2 compression ratio 8.06:1 - 8.10:1Dead on. I measured mine out to right at 53cc's.

[Aries_Turbo]

I always run the damper spring. Supposed to help with harmonics. I did test pressures with and without damper though at some point. IIRC w/o looking, it wasn't much different w or w/o damper.

A quick update concerning the comp 942 damper.

So I had an issue with smoking last summer when I put my reliant back together. Turns out that some of the exhaust valve seals popped off.

Just to be careful I went over to my machinist and we pulled some of the head apart to look and see if it needed any work.

One of the thing we noticed was that the damper spring was digging into the aluminum a little bit where the valve guide comes through and also was offsetting the spring retainer to one side in one instance which was putting the retainer quite close to the cam towers.

I got on the tech support chat with Comp and told them I was running a stock cam and only turning 6k with my 2.5 and that the dampers were digging into stuff and that its OHC with not a heavy valvetrain and they said I would be fine not running the damper.

I was concerned that the spring may have a goofy harmonic at a lower RPM but they said Id be fine.

So ill be getting a valve touch up, some positive type valve seal on the exhaust valves and mopar valve seals on the intake, comp 942 springs and no damper.

even though the head was ingesting oil, and there was a little goofiness with the spring damper, the valvetrain with the PT lifters was dead quiet.

Brian

[4 l-bodies]

A quick update concerning the comp 942 damper.

So I had an issue with smoking last summer when I put my reliant back together. Turns out that some of the exhaust valve seals popped off.

Just to be careful I went over to my machinist and we pulled some of the head apart to look and see if it needed any work.

One of the thing we noticed was that the damper spring was digging into the aluminum a little bit where the valve guide comes through and also was offsetting the spring retainer to one side in one instance which was putting the retainer quite close to the cam towers.

I got on the tech support chat with Comp and told them I was running a stock cam and only turning 6k with my 2.5 and that the dampers were digging into stuff and that its OHC with not a heavy valvetrain and they said I would be fine not running the damper.

I was concerned that the spring may have a goofy harmonic at a lower RPM but they said Id be fine.

So ill be getting a valve touch up, some positive type valve seal on the exhaust valves and mopar valve seals on the intake, comp 942 springs and no damper.

even though the head was ingesting oil, and there was a little goofiness with the spring damper, the valvetrain with the PT lifters was dead quiet.

Brian

Brian,
Perhaps your issue could have been because the factory guides are gang drilled. In other words the ID of the guide is not concentric with the guides OD. I've never had issues using the 942 spring w/damper with using both umbrella or positive seals. However I do always check clearance of spring and towers. Sometimes a slight massaging is done with a rotary file. Sometimes aftermarket guides don't fit the positive type seal very well, so watch for that. You'll know right away if the seal doesn't want to go on nice.
Todd

[Aries_Turbo]

Brian,
Perhaps your issue could have been because the factory guides are gang drilled. In other words the ID of the guide is not concentric with the guides OD. I've never had issues using the 942 spring w/damper with using both umbrella or positive seals. However I do always check clearance of spring and towers. Sometimes a slight messaging is done with a rotary file. Sometimes aftermarket guides don't fit the positive type seal very well, so watch for that. You'll know right away if the seal doesn't want to go on nice.
Todd

Yeah there was just enough material around the guide, possibly offset to one side, that it was causing the interference.

the head has new guides now and new mopar seals to allow a little more oil on the valve guides.

the valve job needed a touch more cutting because the the guide bore to the seat wasnt quite concentric so that explains some of the issue.

I think if the aluminum post part of the head where the guide comes through was cut to a little more of a taper without touching the base diameter so that the damper was still sitting on the spring seat that part would have cleared. then some die grinding on the tower and it would have been fine.

either way the head is back together and the car will be back on the road soon. :)

Brian

[Loudexploder]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210915/87c050269d7b686d3923ad2412edfcf5.jpg
Still rough shaping the chamber. Gonna round the plug hole side out a little more and lay it back some. Once the bigger valves are in then deshrouding on the other side will happen.


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[4 l-bodies]

Wow, lots of welding done to that head! Looks like a hybrid; swirl on one side, g-head on the other. Sort of like a mullet. What did they use to say, business up front, party in the back? (lol). You'll have a ton of hours into this thing before it's done. Looks good!
Todd

[Loudexploder]

Wow, lots of welding done to that head! Looks like a hybrid; swirl on one side, g-head on the other. Sort of like a mullet. What did they use to say, business up front, party in the back? (lol). You'll have a ton of hours into this thing before it's done. Looks good!
Todd

Yes this was a swirl that we welded up. Got the welds ground down just waiting on valves to come in and then we will unshroud the back side and reshape the plug hole side on the flow bench.

Hoping this thing works out well once done.


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[chromguy]

Yes this was a swirl that we welded up. Got the welds ground down just waiting on valves to come in and then we will unshroud the back side and reshape the plug hole side on the flow bench.

Hoping this thing works out well once done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I will imaging you will create yourself a custom tune with MPTune with a flash modules. Hopefully you also have a wideband to assist in the process. I am guessing you know all this stuff but thought I would shout out. If you do have questions, let us know

[Loudexploder]

I will imaging you will create yourself a custom tune with MPTune with a flash modules. Hopefully you also have a wideband to assist in the process. I am guessing you know all this stuff but thought I would shout out. If you do have questions, let us know

Ill be running a standalone. Torn between Holley Terminator and Fueltech at the moment. Ive learned a ton off the forums so far so ill definitely be shouting out with any questions.


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[chromguy]

Ill be running a standalone. Torn between Holley Terminator and Fueltech at the moment. Ive learned a ton off the forums so far so ill definitely be shouting out with any questions.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Excellent

[Aries_Turbo]

i havent got my hands on one yet but the fueltech looks fantastic. then again the holley does too. so much data and automation available.

Brian

[Loudexploder]

i havent got my hands on one yet but the fueltech looks fantastic. then again the holley does too. so much data and automation available.

Brian

We run Holley on all of our Turbo LS stuff. I love the 12" dash and it would fit my van dash perfectly.

The fuel tech is maybe 1k more. I think it offers more options than the holley, but I dont like the small screen. Im really leaning towards the fuel tech tho cause of the options and I wanna try out the traction control.


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[4 l-bodies]

Yes this was a swirl that we welded up. Got the welds ground down just waiting on valves to come in and then we will unshroud the back side and reshape the plug hole side on the flow bench.

Hoping this thing works out well once done.

If I may ask, why did you just not use a G-head? My max effort porting results in similar flow bench #'s, at least the way I port them. My conclusions are the swirls intake seem to have a slight edge flow wise (esp. around .400 lift), while the G-heads exhaust consistently is a smidge better than the swirls.
Todd

[Loudexploder]

If I may ask, why did you just not use a G-head? My max effort porting results in similar flow bench #'s, at least the way I port them. My conclusions are the swirls intake seem to have a slight edge flow wise (esp. around .400 lift), while the G-heads exhaust consistently is a smidge better than the swirls.
Todd

Already had this head. Im not doing the work also im having a local guy port it who has been porting for longer than Ive been around.

I just got my van in July and trying to get the build done before the end of the year yet everything is hard to come by, so instead of spending that time looking for a G head I just pulled the one off the van and took it to him.

Got another shop doing all the valve work as the porter only ports. We went with custom stainless intakes and inconel exhaust. Nail head on intake valve, tulip on exhaust, along with beryllium copper seats for the exhaust side. Since we ordered the valves custom we are going with the LS style groove for the locks and retainers and he is going to spec me out some valve springs based on the custom can I ordered.



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[4 l-bodies]

Already had this head. Im not doing the work also im having a local guy port it who has been porting for longer than Ive been around.

I just got my van in July and trying to get the build done before the end of the year yet everything is hard to come by, so instead of spending that time looking for a G head I just pulled the one off the van and took it to him.

Got another shop doing all the valve work as the porter only ports. We went with custom stainless intakes and inconel exhaust. Nail head on intake valve, tulip on exhaust, along with beryllium copper seats for the exhaust side. Since we ordered the valves custom we are going with the LS style groove for the locks and retainers and he is going to spec me out some valve springs based on the custom can I ordered.

Cam is a 224/230 @.050
Lift .544/.525
113+4 lsa


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With that lift, your gonna have to make/purchase/modify custom guides as the bottom of the retainer or keepers will most definitely hit the guide, trying to eject the keepers from the retainer. With .500" lift camshafts, it comes extremely close to making contact with the valve seal mounted on top of the guide.
What is 113+4 mean when referring to the LSA? I don't follow?
Yeah I have inconel exhaust valves in my masi 16V engine. I've been running LS style bead lock keepers on all my custom made valves for a while now.

[Loudexploder]

With that lift, your gonna have to make/purchase/modify custom guides as the bottom of the retainer or keepers will most definitely hit the guide, trying to eject the keepers from the retainer. With .500" lift camshafts, it comes extremely close to making contact with the valve seal mounted on top of the guide.
What is 113+4 mean when referring to the LSA? I don't follow?
Yeah I have inconel exhaust valves in my masi 16V engine. I've been running LS style bead lock keepers on all my custom made valves for a while now.

Yea im not doing the head work so Im sure the shop doing it should know to check all of that. I will mention it to him tho when i take the cam up to him.

On the LSA im talking lobe seperation angle. Its 113 degrees with +4 degrees of advance ground into the cam. So an intake center line of 109 exhaust centerline of 117.


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[4 l-bodies]

Yea im not doing the head work so Im sure the shop doing it should know to check all of that. I will mention it to him tho when i take the cam up to him.

On the LSA im talking lobe seperation angle. Its 113 degrees with +4 degrees of advance ground into the cam. So an intake center line of 109 exhaust centerline of 117.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Okay, that is what I thought you were saying. Pretty close to what a stock roller cam is then. One solution on the guides would be to make another receiver groove (for the wire lock) higher up on guide so the guide can be lowered further down into the head. You will probably have to trim bottom of guides down some anyway.

[Loudexploder]

Im not sure what type of guides he is using. He has ordered and sourced all the parts. Ill give him a shout and mention it to him.


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[Aries_Turbo]

We run Holley on all of our Turbo LS stuff. I love the 12" dash and it would fit my van dash perfectly.

The fuel tech is maybe 1k more. I think it offers more options than the holley, but I dont like the small screen. Im really leaning towards the fuel tech tho cause of the options and I wanna try out the traction control.


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yeah those giant screens are nice. im putting together a speeduino/megasquirt/tunerstudio/raspberry pi 4 dash setup and got one of those 12.3" 1920x720 screens on the way for various vehicle projects.

Brian

[Loudexploder]

Got a little more porting done on the chamber.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210924/e409ab6330b3196a61d87d8ca58f8ee5.jpg


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[chromguy]

looks interesting

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

edit .. thought I was looking at diff thread

[cordes]

Well, here we are all these years later, and I pulled the head back out and put it on the bench in the basement. I think it will go on my blue Omni. With some of the skills I've acquired since the start of this thread, I'm hoping that it goes much better than it would have otherwise. I'll try to post up some pics soon as I continue to make progress.

Cam, valve, retainer, and keeper selection will be something I dig into as I go along. I already have a set of the Comp Cams springs, so it would be nice to put them to use.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

I need to figure out what I have but I'm pretty sure I have anti drop guides for both style heads..

I'd be willing to separate the f-b head guides from my stash if someone needs em as they are the only F-B head parts I have left

G head stuff I'd rather keep as a package deal

[chromguy]

Well, here we are all these years later, and I pulled the head back out and put it on the bench in the basement. I think it will go on my blue Omni. With some of the skills I've acquired since the start of this thread, I'm hoping that it goes much better than it would have otherwise. I'll try to post up some pics soon as I continue to make progress.

Cam, valve, retainer, and keeper selection will be something I dig into as I go along. I already have a set of the Comp Cams springs, so it would be nice to put them to use.
Please keep us in the "know"

[cordes]

OK, here are the results. I know there is definitely room for improvement, but I'm satisfied enough with my first attempt at porting a head. Thanks to all who contributed to the thread. I know that I wouldn't have been able to get this to where it is without you guys.

[wheming]

That looks pretty professional Cordes!
Can't wait to hear of your performance results!

Sent from my KB2005 using Tapatalk

[cordes]

Thanks. I really wanted to make everything "perfect" as far as smoothing it out and ensuring that everything was as close to the same as possible, but I thought I had better quit while I'm ahead.

Now to populate this with some good vales, etc. etc. I think that will be the hard part.

[chromguy]

how many mm did you use for deshroud the valve? How did the the CC volume work out 52 mL or so? Did you raise the roof of the port or mostly a cleanup and smooth?

[cordes]

I didn't CC the chambers, though I know I should have. I cut it back .250" on the first one, then made a template, and tried to match them. It passes fairly well by eye and feel in real life.

I raised the roof of the ports a good amount. I also went wider. I scribed the gasket and then went to on the top and sides only. I hopefully made the best transition into the bowl that I could. I really worked the bowls over in an attempt to have a pretty straight shot down onto the valve.

My thinking in not going crazy with the cleanup and making every last bit perfect was that I know I hogged out my practice head a ton when I did so. It looks pretty, especially on the practice head intake runners, but I wonder if that wouldn't be more detrimental to what the car's goals are, which is a good all around performance build.

[chromguy]

sounds nice