SRT4 Consulier

[player1up]

I want to SRT4 swap my Consulier...change my mind... or not :)

[Rrider]

I hear K24 vtech swap is the way to go.

[Johnny]

SRT4 has more of what? why change?

- - - Updated - - -

"IF" I was going to change to a newer engine....I'd go 3.6. 300 hp and no turbo lag.
OR add twin turbos to the 3.6 to make a beast.

[player1up]

There are a couple of reasons. Cool factor, easier to reach whatever HP goal.
Let's say 350hp is the goal. The 2.4 should be easier to get there than a 2.2 8v thus less stress on the engine.
Don't get me wrong, going the 2.4 route is a lot more complex and that is really the main reason I'm on the fence

[Johnny]

Easy to get over 300 with the 2.2 though.

[Reaper1]

Hate me all you guys like, but I wouldn't even look at a Chrysler driveline! I would be looking at either EcoBoost or the Mitsu Evo version of the 4B11T...

[masterjr33]

would be much sexier to put in 3KGT vr4 67G72 in it... and make 800HP

[Reaper1]

I've thought about that, but considering parts availability, weight, power potential, transmissions and such...none of our drivelines make any sense if you're going to modernize for true racing. For "cool" or whatever...sure, but if you wanted to actually compete...I wouldn't even bother with any of our options. Just doesn't make sense.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I want to SRT4 swap my Consulier...change my mind... or not :)


Sure I'll swap you an SRT4 for a Consulier

[player1up]

Hate me all you guys like, but I wouldn't even look at a Chrysler driveline! I would be looking at either EcoBoost or the Mitsu Evo version of the 4B11T...
Oh, I've thought about the ecoboost and others as well, but only for a second. The thought of rebuilding an engine cradle is not something I care to do. Now if I had a spare one to fit the motor, trans and all the moving parts, maybe. Then I could just swap the engine box back out for a stocker if needed.



I've thought about that, but considering parts availability, weight, power potential, transmissions and such...none of our drivelines make any sense if you're going to modernize for true racing. For "cool" or whatever...sure, but if you wanted to actually compete...I wouldn't even bother with any of our options. Just doesn't make sense.
I've been doing the math on the srt swap and for the trouble ( redoing stuff that's already done ) and the motor I'm looking to get, it's looking more and more like it's not worth the effort.


Sure I'll swap you an SRT4 for a Consulier
See? now that's some good comedy :)

[Rrider]

How hard would it be really to scratch build a cradle? Id think you would have to mock it up and tack it together inside of the chassis? Or get one of those fancy 3d lasers to scan your old cradle. Or scan your engine bay after you pull the old cradle out. One of those methods doesn't seem out of the question though..

[Reaper1]

The cradle basically is the outline of the engine compartment, correct? If so, then mounts really are the biggest hardware/fabrication issue there. Obviously all of the peripherals and such will need looked at, but...race car...that stuff changes all the time anyway.

[Thrillz]

I went out and bought a donor car to do this, it's looking like a lot of work. But making over 300 wheel at 14 PSI is very tempting when to do that in the 8-valve, it's about 23 PSI.
That was my initial thought as well with it just being less hard on things. I have shelved it for now, but we'll see what the future brings. I wholeheartedly say go for it!

[Rrider]

I'm curious how the cradle to chassis interface works.. I'm assuming each cradle is specifically fitted to each chassis but maybe that is incorrect. I kinda agree that the era correct T2/T3 is the way to go. Outside of that era you may as well go non Chrysler. Speaking of four cylinder mid engine swaps.. have you guys seen the Honda K swapped MR2's? There are a few really fast ones. There is also a guy with a K NSX. From what I hear its fairly affordable to build a K up past 400hp.

[cordes]

Hate me all you guys like, but I wouldn't even look at a Chrysler driveline! I would be looking at either EcoBoost or the Mitsu Evo version of the 4B11T...

A Masi headed car should be able to compete with anything out there power wise IMO.

[MPI_duster]

A Masi headed car should be able to compete with anything out there power wise IMO.

Been there, tried to show him the light.

[GLHNSLHT2]

A masi is nice. I have a built 2.2 with Ti rods and a fully modded Masi head waiting for a Cousulier if I could find an engineless one that was otherwise complete and good. But you can make just as much or more power far easier and cheaper with an SRT motor. 500hp in them is pretty cake. 6-700 isn't out of the question but could you really use that much power.

[tryingbe]

I went out and bought a donor car to do this, it's looking like a lot of work. But making over 300 wheel at 14 PSI is very tempting when to do that in the 8-valve, it's about 23 PSI.

Only if you have a 8 valve head that doesn't flow. I made close to 350whp with 23.2psi.

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/2017/dyno/350whpvsboost.jpg

[Thrillz]

Only if you have a 8 valve head that doesn't flow. I made close to 350whp with 23.2psi.

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/2017/dyno/350whpvsboost.jpg
That can probably be accounted for in the fact my elevation here is 3 times that of you. 3500 ft above sea level versus 1200 or 1250.

[player1up]

I went out and bought a donor car to do this, it's looking like a lot of work. But making over 300 wheel at 14 PSI is very tempting when to do that in the 8-valve, it's about 23 PSI.
That was my initial thought as well with it just being less hard on things. I have shelved it for now, but we'll see what the future brings. I wholeheartedly say go for it!

This is the main reason why I'm considering it. Less stress on everything. Performance modded 8v motors don't seem to last that long. Although the one I blew up was due to user error ( oil starvation - hard cornering on ramp ).
If I go the SRT route, I plan on using a distributor adapter and running off the stock smec.
As for the work, it looks like.
A/C lines, motor mounts, intake, exhaust, coolant lines, some rework of electrical due to the new alternator and sensor locations, axle support mount, oil cooler lines and I'm sure some crap I haven't thought of or have forgotten.



I'm curious how the cradle to chassis interface works.. I'm assuming each cradle is specifically fitted to each chassis but maybe that is incorrect. I kinda agree that the era correct T2/T3 is the way to go. Outside of that era you may as well go non Chrysler. Speaking of four cylinder mid engine swaps.. have you guys seen the Honda K swapped MR2's? There are a few really fast ones. There is also a guy with a K NSX. From what I hear its fairly affordable to build a K up past 400hp.

The cradle is shimmed to meet the chassis. From what I've seen, all of the cradles are the same or at least were built on the same jig.

The t3? From what I've read, they are or can be a bit problematic...As for period correct, isnt there a pic of one with the srt motor in it...even for just mock up? Even then, the chassis is what's important, I have all of the original components as well.
Outside of period correct that has SOME similarity to what's in there is really the key for me, I can reuse a lot of what's in there now if I pick the SRT4 and my HP goal is apparently easy to hit with the 2.4



Been there, tried to show him the light.
Well, parts availability and cost are why I'd go SRT before masi but I'm starting to like the coolaid ;)


That can probably be accounted for in the fact my elevation here is 3 times that of you. 3500 ft above sea level versus 1200 or 1250.

That map says megasquirt flex...running e85 with MS ? What head is on there ( vendor, home / pro ported ) ?

[thedon809]

Rob aka shadow has been making a lot of power on a non common block for a long time.

[contraption22]

Rob aka shadow has been making a lot of power on a non common block for a long time.

Is he still racing? I haven't seen updates from him in a while.

[thedon809]

Is he still racing? I haven't seen updates from him in a while.Dunno. If he sees this thread maybe he will chime in. IIRC he is/was still using stock main caps, stock main bolts and t2 rods.

[tryingbe]

If I go the SRT route, I plan on using a distributor adapter and running off the stock smec.


Friend did that, end up selling everything on SMEC and went with Megasquirt.

[player1up]

Friend did that, end up selling everything on SMEC and went with Megasquirt.

That will be factored in sometime soon. I'll keep all of the sensors so it'll be ready for MS when the time comes. Knowing my luck, the SMEC with take a dump shortly after the swap :)

[polopharm]

Hey guys , important info -
The blue car at 13psi , 93 octane is 350hp.
At 28psi and 110 octane 500's ( electromotiv Dyno )

It is very VERY tricky to drive with that much power.
On the track , except straights, I turn boost to around 13, on straight 20 .
It can get SUPER LIGHT in the front end.
It has Toyo r888,:s race alignment. All new everything.
On the street - straight line is fun , drifting a corner is white knuckle, hoping to not to spin and loose it completely.
I like to think I drive well, handle cars well.
The lack of tire size in the back really hurts, controllability.

I would not aim for more then 300hp if you intend to really use it.
So a huge HP swap is just for bragging rights. Not really that fun , or useful in this car.

If I was going to do a swap I would do a Hayabusa , and sequential shifter. Revs to 13k , weighs nothing , fits with the "add lightness" concept.

Side note- what was the best 1/4 time anyone ever did in my blue car? I saw video of Mike doing 11.3 .
I thought eventually it did high tens, is that right?

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk

[thedon809]

I'd be looking at adding some downforce.

[Reaper1]

Something I hadn't considered much until recently with motorcycle engines being used in cars are lateral G-forces. Those engines aren't designed with lateral G-forces in mind when considering their oil systems. Too much cornering can starve the oil pick-up and...POP goes the engine. There's solutions for this of course, but just something to keep in mind.

[polopharm]

The down force splitter ideas don't really work well via trial and error and with a splitter comes a rear wing ( look at the intruder)

Not trying to rain on anyones parade but with the most hours put on a high hp GTP,
I think I would stick to Max 300 HP for overall drivability.

But hey , that's just my thought.

The Hayabusa is run in literally thousands of formula race cars and like the Radical- they make HUGE G forces. . They run a dry sump normally

Tires- I can't fit bigger then 225/45/16.
I know Randy had 245/17
I guess each car is different.

Going back to my 1/4 mi question- anyone know?


Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk

[player1up]

Hey guys , important info -
The blue car at 13psi , 93 octane is 350hp.
At 28psi and 110 octane 500's ( electromotiv Dyno )

It is very VERY tricky to drive with that much power.
On the track , except straights, I turn boost to around 13, on straight 20 .
It can get SUPER LIGHT in the front end.
It has Toyo r888,:s race alignment. All new everything.
On the street - straight line is fun , drifting a corner is white knuckle, hoping to not to spin and loose it completely.
I like to think I drive well, handle cars well.
The lack of tire size in the back really hurts, controllability.

I would not aim for more then 300hp if you intend to really use it.
So a huge HP swap is just for bragging rights. Not really that fun , or useful in this car.

If I was going to do a swap I would do a Hayabusa , and sequential shifter. Revs to 13k , weighs nothing , fits with the "add lightness" concept.

Side note- what was the best 1/4 time anyone ever did in my blue car? I saw video of Mike doing 11.3 .
I thought eventually it did high tens, is that right?

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk

I'm right with you on all of the points but I'll try to talk through my reasoning:
The car IS pretty light on the front end and I've been trying to work through that issue and so far the only thing that helps is more weight. No real downforce can be found at street driving speeds.
As for the "too much HP" thing, Yes, it's possible to over power a chassis, The last tune I had on the car with the mildly ported 8v head would spin the tires when I hit full boost in 2nd....BUT most if not all exotic/supercars are like that as well as sport bikes.
It takes a certain mindset to get behind the wheel, I know this and I'm ok with that.
I'm also OK with a 300hp 2.4 that will last 100k miles. I don't plan on tuning it past the current limitations of the car or my ability to drive it.



Too much cornering can starve the oil pick-up and...POP goes the engine. There's solutions for this of course, but just something to keep in mind.
This is exactly how I spun a rod bearing.


The down force splitter ideas don't really work well via trial and error and with a splitter comes a rear wing ( look at the intruder)

Not trying to rain on anyones parade but with the most hours put on a high hp GTP,
I think I would stick to Max 300 HP for overall drivability.

But hey , that's just my thought.

The Hayabusa is run in literally thousands of formula race cars and like the Radical- they make HUGE G forces. . They run a dry sump normally

Tires- I can't fit bigger then 225/45/16.
I know Randy had 245/17
I guess each car is different.

Going back to my 1/4 mi question- anyone know?


Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk

Don't worry, no offense taken, I know you're the guy with the most "clench" time ;) and value your input for sure.
The tire problem definitely needs some thought. The series 2 cars seem to have more space in the rear for bigger tires. On my car, 225/50/15's rub the intercooler cover in the fender at hwy speeds so I can't go much taller than a 24" tire in the rear...once you start getting into wide sizes, they all end up way too tall. The closest thing I've found is a 255/45/15 ( 24" tall 10" wide ) but the tread looks like they belong on a rat rod

[Johnny]

I went from street tires to road race tires on mine and wont go back to street tires unless its for a long trip.
The grip is so much better. I drove it to Portland and back (550miles round trip) and maybe its because the car
is so light it seems fine.
Put them on my black Revolution wheels and kind of like the black wheel look on it in place of the teal ones.

[GTP#44]

"I know Randy had 245/17"

Yes I am running 17's
Warren is also running 17's on his car.
I have been dreaming of a motor swap also.
It would not be a Chrysler for sure.
I have been thinking of a Rotary.
But the Hayabusa is a good idea also ,I bet it would sound awesome and it is light .
Rotary is light also and it's pretty small so I believe it would fit in the engine bay....as long as you don't care about a little smoke.... and you can't beat the sound of a revving rotary.

[player1up]

Well, I think it's time to post an update and some lessons learned. Keep in mind I'm only going to cover GTP specific problems...this isn't a 2.4 into an omni post ;)

Initial thoughts: Figuring out what parts to use was harder than the swap. I had an idea but just because it works for an Omni doesn't mean it'll work in a GTP. Never and I mean NEVER tell a machine shop that you're in no hurry! Double check all of your parts before install.

Engine build list:
05 block, BC rods with ARP624+ bolts, Clevite H series crank and rod bearings, crank strap kit and machined bedplate with main studs, no balance assembly, custom oil pan baffle and windage tray, Arias forged pistons, BC springs with titanium retainers, billet oil pump gears, ARP head studs, and lightened flywheel with TU 6 puck black plate clutch. Trans is a 555/520 hybrid with the OBX LSD, bronze shift fork pads and 3.50 gears.

The head has some cleanup work done and I'm using stock cams for now, but I wanted the bottom end to be able to support whatever I decided to do in the future.

I was aware that there was a consulier with a 2.4 engine in it at one point or another and reached out to Jacob to get some info on it as I was fitting the engine. Turns out that the "factory 2.4" car was never completed and from the pictures used the neon manual trans but was never completed...so I was on my own... :/

There a number of interference issues with the N(eon)SRT 2.4. These are in order of discovery / remedy
1. The lower front of the oil pan needs to occupy the same space as the passenger side lower frame rail and the oil galley routes thru that part of the pan so the frame needed to be moved out 2 inches as well as the passenger rear brake line mount. This will also cause the belly cover not to fit so I have some fiberglass work ahead of me.
2. NSRT alternator / bracket and passenger rear suspension rocker arm. Needed to use the 98-99 stratus alternator and bracket.
3. Previous route for radiator return hose was between the passenger lower frame rail and the oil pan. Lower hose now routes from the back of the water pump toward the trans then routes between the engine and trans then returns to factory routing to the left of the passenger shock. Has 6 coolant hoses now. 2 modified NSRT lower hoses for the new routing.

The axle mount, passenger and front motor mounts were the only custom pieces and motor mounts are similar in configuration to the stock ( custom ) pieces.

Wiring wasn't as bad a I had expected and there were only a few wires that had to be moved: Coolant temp, oil temp / pressure and coil connection wires were lengthened. I did move the entire rear section of the harness to the front by the firewall to clean up the engine bay and that might have contributed to having to lengthen some of the wiring.

The engine is down and apart at the moment due to a ridiculous mistake ( wrong oil rings ) that I didn't catch when building the motor, but the new parts will be here next week and it'll be back on the road as soon as I can make it happen.

[player1up]

I got the engine back together and it seems to be running well. Trying to put some break in miles on it....80 so far