1991 Dodge Spirit ES Turbo 5spd Project

[wheming]

There hasn't been a build thread on my '91 Spirit ES since the old SDML days. This car was built more than 20 years ago as the project started right after i purchased in 1996.

I'll try to update more with the current build configuration, but it hasn't changed much in the last dozen or more years.

The current effort has been to finally figure out why it was only intermittently starting, and the traveler was displaying a code. As it turns out, the 20 year old Ed Peters Viper Pump was bad.

https://youtu.be/e4pyvrdN8Zs

I just replaced with a GCA761, Walbro 255lph HP for the NSRT4, mounted in a TU101 pump module.
What came out was mounted in the old style hanger.
Old:
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Also found the hose ruptured in the tank.
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Here's the new pump, and module.
The new TU101 module came with a pump, but the pump discharge was broken right off.
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Both new pumps side by side:
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Had to solder the wires since they both had different connectors:
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Fully assembled module:
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And even managed to get it all installed in the car!
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I do need to try finding a new connector for the fuel pump. The outside of the connector is broken and there is no locking clip. Is this connector used anywhere else on the car? It has a key on the bottom. Some of those other 2 wire connectors have them on the sides.
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I'll have to get some fresh gas so I can test. I didn't want to reuse this old gas i removed. I replaced the fuel filter and a piece of fuel hose also.
If i have time, I'll try to get some fuel tomorrow. I have some in a 5 gal jug, but can't remember where it came from. So I'll just use it in the mower.

[Shadow]

Nice catch! Intermittent issues are often the hardest to find.


Are you sure the pump was shot? Looks like the fuel hose is just old and worn out?


I've actually never seen an MP S60 pump ever go bad. Closest is one that the sock came apart on and pieces of it went into the pump and jammed it.


Whatever pump that's hiding in that sock looks too small to be a Bosch S60, they're pretty big monsters vs the stock pumps.

[c2xejk]

So if you have an old style hanger, do you have a matching old style tank with a "sump" in it? I would guess yes unless you were having stalling issues on turns. I bought a Daytona with blown engine that I believe was caused by the sump coming loose and fuel sloshing away from the pump on turns...

So then the question would be, how well does the new style setup work with a sump?

On the connector, when I last looked (~year ago) I didn't find one explicitly listed. Ended up getting a pig tail from a junkyard car. Looked through a couple cars before finding one in good condition.

[wheming]

Nice catch! Intermittent issues are often the hardest to find.


Are you sure the pump was shot? Looks like the fuel hose is just old and worn out?


I've actually never seen an MP S60 pump ever go bad. Closest is one that the sock came apart on and pieces of it went into the pump and jammed it.


Whatever pump that's hiding in that sock looks too small to be a Bosch S60, they're pretty big monsters vs the stock pumps.

Thanks Rob.
The pump would not prime. I hit the tank a few times and got it to prime and start. In the video the car was running anf the pump stopped. Would not restart until i hit the tank again.
The pump i removed was a Walbro GSS307.



So if you have an old style hanger, do you have a matching old style tank with a "sump" in it? I would guess yes unless you were having stalling issues on turns. I bought a Daytona with blown engine that I believe was caused by the sump coming loose and fuel sloshing away from the pump on turns...

So then the question would be, how well does the new style setup work with a sump?

On the connector, when I last looked (~year ago) I didn't find one explicitly listed. Ended up getting a pig tail from a junkyard car. Looked through a couple cars before finding one in good condition.

The tank is the stock 91, so there was no built in sump.
What i found when mocking up on the van was the pump module would not install in a sumped tank.

[wheming]

Here's a pic of the pump that was bad.
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[wheming]

Here's a shot of the tank inside. These were when i removed the pump. I cleaned the small debris out before installing new pump module.

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[Shadow]

I've never held a pump that was taken out of an actual Viper, so I can't really say.

But the S60 Bosch pump was always called "Viper fuel pump" and it looks nothing like that! (Not to mention it ain't a Walbro!)

[wheming]

I could only find Viper fuel pumps on RockAuto up to 1996, which all showed inline pumps.
So not really sure.
GSS307 is listed as 255lph though.

Like I said, this was bought 20 years ago, and it was touted as the best at the time. I was told it had silver windings and special bearings so it wouldn't wear out.

[contraption22]

I've had two Mopar S60 pumps fail. Nether had many hours on them. But the had lots of time between uses.

[wheming]

Well decided to just put in a few gallons of what i had here. Used about 1.5 gallons of what came out (was a few months old) and about 1.5 gals of the recent mower gas.
Primed with the key a few times and reset the computer to prime some more times until i heard some load on the pump. It doesn't sound like the old pump, or the walbro in the van, but maybe because it is in that module/reservoir.
Cranked about one revolution and started right up!

Looking things over, and found no leaks, not even one drop.
It does appear i have an issue with my O2 sensor because it doesn't seem to be moving around enough or matching the Cyberdyne A/F gauge. A/F gauge showing 8-9 lights, but O2v on DRB only showing like .46-.51 and not dancing around enough once warmed.
Next week I'll get 5 gals of fresh gas and look into the o2 sensor some more. This just has the stock narrowband, and it has been in there a while! I think i have a new one for the 89 2.5T, but not sure if 91 was different plug.

https://youtu.be/VLpa0mcePkw

[c2xejk]

Switching to a newer style O2 sensor would be a good idea... 89 should be a 3-wire (O2 signal, 2 wires for heater). The newer style adds a ground reference wire for improved accuracy...

[tryingbe]

Switching to a newer style O2 sensor would be a good idea... 89 should be a 3-wire (O2 signal, 2 wires for heater). The newer style adds a ground reference wire for improved accuracy...

89 and newer have 4 wires o2 sensors.

[Shadow]

Cyberdyne A/F gauge

Had to lol when I read that!

Another item I use to order by the dozen and have Zero left on shelf. (maybe I find some hiding away somewhere? ;P)

I never had an issue tuning on the narrowband with the Cyberdyne Gauge like so many others seemed to.

When I made the switch to WB and did a BtB check with both operating the Cyberdyne was right where I expected it to be all the time...…….

[wheming]

Had to lol when I read that!

Another item I use to order by the dozen and have Zero left on shelf. (maybe I find some hiding away somewhere? ;P)

I never had an issue tuning on the narrowband with the Cyberdyne Gauge like so many others seemed to.

When I made the switch to WB and did a BtB check with both operating the Cyberdyne was right where I expected it to be all the time...…….

I agree.
I still have a Dawes Devices version A/F gauge on Slug and like it much better because it looks at an even narrower voltage band! Really only interested in seeing .8v and higher.
I had bought one to install on my Spirit, but never did.

That Cyberdyne was high tech 25 years ago when i installed my first one on my 85 New Yorker turbo I had!

[iTurbo]

Looking things over, and found no leaks, not even one drop.
It does appear i have an issue with my O2 sensor because it doesn't seem to be moving around enough or matching the Cyberdyne A/F gauge. A/F gauge showing 8-9 lights, but O2v on DRB only showing like .46-.51 and not dancing around enough once warmed.
Next week I'll get 5 gals of fresh gas and look into the o2 sensor some more. This just has the stock narrowband, and it has been in there a while! I think i have a new one for the 89 2.5T, but not sure if 91 was different plug.

https://youtu.be/VLpa0mcePkw

Any pictures of the car itself? I always liked the '89-'92 Spirit ES turbo models. I'm still kicking myself for not buying a very nice one locally long ago.

You bring up an important point (IMO) about the A/F gauge. A lot of people hate on narrow-band A/F gauges, but I have found them to be invaluable as far as a quick check on the overall running of the car. Watching the bounce characteristic and knowing what is normal and what is not is important.....maybe more important than what it says at WOT even. It is a good indicator as to things running 'normal' for me at least, so I like to have one.

[wheming]

Any pictures of the car itself? I always liked the '89-'92 Spirit ES turbo models. I'm still kicking myself for not buying a very nice one locally long ago.

You bring up an important point (IMO) about the A/F gauge. A lot of people hate on narrow-band A/F gauges, but I have found them to be invaluable as far as a quick check on the overall running of the car. Watching the bounce characteristic and knowing what is normal and what is not is important.....maybe more important than what it says at WOT even. It is a good indicator as to things running 'normal' for me at least, so I like to have one.I'll have to get some fresh ones in its present condition, but looking at some old ones nearly makes me cry.
Does anyone recognize the house and cars in the first pic?

When I have some time, I'm going to try compiling all my old website pages into a Google sites.
But here's the two pages that had the Spirit.

web.archive.org/web/20080504104437/http://home.netcom.com:80/~w.heming/spiritpage.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20080630044104/http://home.netcom.com:80/~w.heming/spiritstuff.htmlhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180719/4ab93feeb2cd50c7b06ab89d963ee29a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180719/bb4a4f4bbd154d26655a961c44364e55.jpg62896

[wheming]

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[wheming]

Here are some more pics.
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Did an Acclaim tail light swap some years ago.
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I have the R/T seats.
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Engine bay
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Currently uses +20's and 2 cold start injectors.
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And a RRFPR
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[Shadow]

Wow, some Old School stuff going on right there!

Looks like parking is pretty tight around your place Wayne...…….

[iTurbo]

I'll have to get some fresh ones in its present condition, but looking at some old ones nearly makes me cry.
Does anyone recognize the house and cars in the first pic?

When I have some time, I'm going to try compiling all my old website pages into a Google sites.
But here's the two pages that had the Spirit.

web.archive.org/web/20080504104437/http://home.netcom.com:80/~w.heming/spiritpage.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20080630044104/http://home.netcom.com:80/~w.heming/spiritstuff.htmlhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180719/4ab93feeb2cd50c7b06ab89d963ee29a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180719/bb4a4f4bbd154d26655a961c44364e55.jpg62896

Cool, thanks for sharing. Isn't that Gus's old "Blackie" in the first pic?

[wheming]

Cool, thanks for sharing. Isn't that Gus's old "Blackie" in the first pic?

Yes! And if you look closely you can see Slug behind my Spirit.


Wow, some Old School stuff going on right there!

Looks like parking is pretty tight around your place Wayne...…….

I should have took one of the stock modified (now 45psi) FPR. You don't see those everyday.
And yes, I wish I had more driveway and garage space!

[wheming]

I thought I had posted an update after some time of the fuel pump replacement, but I don't see it.
The fuel pump seemed to fix the intermittent starting problems for a while, but after about 6 months or so it did the same thing, with that code F1-01 on the traveler. I ended up trying a different SBEC, and that seemed to do the trick. So not sure if there was a problem with my original SBEC, or if I improved things with the R&R and reseating the connections. (I can't remember if I tried swapping back, but I probably did.)
After the different ecu seemed to fix this, I did upgrade to a flashable SBEC. So right now it just has the same stock cal but Turbonator loaded into it. I still need to fix the EMR and reflash it.

Although I have not investigated it, the 2.5 has some blowby and had been running crappy and sometimes noticeably burning some oil. I think I probably have a bad piston. This build had stock cast pistons. The last time this was rebuilt was probably 1998 and the stock Mahle pistons were still available.
The car also appears to be in need of new engine/trans mounts, and the front suspension needs some work too. Of course the paint has succumbed to the ages.

I've not registered or driven the car in several years now, but would like to. I've had this since 1996 and we've been through alot!

With the recent totaling of my PT GT from a deer running into me, I have a donor 2.4T that could find its way into the Spirit ES. I think I would go with an auto though, as I planned to convert it to auto at some point anyway. I always hated I could never run 12's in this car, even though I have trapped over 109 mph.
But there is a chance I might get this 2.5 or another spare block rebuilt and just drive again with the 5spd and cast pistons as a healthy daily. That would be the easiest thing. I wouldn't race it again with the 5spd, as I got tired of damaging things. And with a 2.4 swap I would need a 31TH, and get it built, and would go with MegaSquirt for the engine management. So all of that would likely be more money than a quick 2.5 shortblock rebuild. I guess I could do the entire PT GT drivetrain swap, but would have to use the PT engine wiring. I don't know if megasquirt could control the 41TE, so figured the 31TH would be a better option with some .91 transfer gears for some nicer highway cruising.

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[Reaper1]

MS cannot control the 41TE. There are no known controllers currently available. There was one *many* years ago, but it was strictly for racing as it had no adaptive capabilities to account for normal wear, so constant tweaking was needed.

[wheming]

MS cannot control the 41TE. There are no known controllers currently available. There was one *many* years ago, but it was strictly for racing as it had no adaptive capabilities to account for normal wear, so constant tweaking was needed.I didn't really think it could. And now that you mention it, I think I remember an old thread discussing the trans control.

Probably better off with a 31TH non-lockup built for street/strip.

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[Aries_Turbo]

MS used to be able to control the 41TE but there wasnt anyone that was available to test and help tweak the implementation other than Una and he cooked his 41TE trying so i think they pulled the code from regular Megashift builds.

Brian

[wheming]

Mystery finally solved!
Thanks to chromguy, I now know for sure my stock SBEC was in fact going bad.
Don't really know why it would start at times, but then must have failed altogether.
The replacement SBEC had worked, and the flashable SBEC my brother DanH built had been working fine. Got my arm twisted into selling my flashable SBEC to a member in dire need.

Anyway here are some pics of the damaged SBEC.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200928/07ce40591dea0b409bdadc39786272a0.jpg

I forgot this SBEC was possibly bad, and was using it for the MPFlash SBEC testbed. And I couldn't get the SBEC to take a flash.

So, back to looking for a good working turbo SBEC for my testing!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200928/9532faeee86bd0cc207cba0f1743af5a.jpg

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