4 hours of porting today, TU Header

[2.216VTurbo]

Perfect day for porting, sunny so I can see down the runners and 80 degrees out. Set up my station, hot in the porting zone and didn't stop till it was done. The road race 86 S has an old Weld Ell TU Header, I'm hoping the cast peice will be a nice upgrade and spool the GT 30 a lil quicker. Header would be done buuut, this one didn't get quite enough molten metal in the casting process, I have to have it machined flat at the head face. I'm gonna bill Chris for that 🤑

[Chris W]

Our cast iron hybrid header is a step design. Hopefully you only port matched and polished otherwise you just destroyed one of the main benefits of this header. Looks nice though. We usually reface flanges after port matching due to unintentional scarring which inevitably occurs.

Chris-TU

[2.216VTurbo]

Lol, yeah keep telling yourself its gonna flow better with all the sharp edges and casting flash and I've ruined it by modifying the inside shape:rolleyes: If I thought your concerns had any merit at all, I'd flow it against the one stock header I have left;) Don't get me wrong Chris I think your cast header is a great piece, probably the finest component that TU has ever produced but I also know that I can make it better with a few hours of effort which was the point of this thread:p

[cordes]

Nice work AJ. That looks pretty nice.

[Wastelands Warrior]

👍👍👍Looking good

[Shadow]

Do you have data logs on the GT30 before for comparo?

Be interesting to see what difference you just made :)

[johnl]

Love that work station, keeps the grit outside, it WAS indeed a nice day, good light.

I met up with the SoCal BSA Owners Club for a ride from the LA Zoo out Mulholland to Sepulveda Pass and back to Bob's Big Boy in Toluca Lake.

Gorgeous day, rode a friends 1952 Panther 650 single, forty year old tires, hardtail, first year model when they replaced the girder front end with telescopic forks

[2.216VTurbo]

Do you have data logs on the GT30 before for comparo?

Be interesting to see what difference you just made :)

The data is that I had to wait for it to respool after every shift/closed throttle event during the last track day a few weekends ago, it was painful. I tinkered with advancing the cam a couple degrees but it didn't help much. Still had a great day at the track with my best lap times ever(in that car) but 240 degree water temps were frustrating too. The next weekend I found a big boost leak in the vacuum harness, not an 1/8" line but the big 1/4" line had separated where hard plastic joins the rubber line. Ooops, that'll make you wait for boost for sure:banghead:

It's not gonna be a valid B2B comparo because I'm gonna disassemble the turbo and see if I can't ruin it too with my Dremel:lol: I don't expect as much cutting will be needed as with a Garrett but probably still a couple hours of porting. Also gonna change the valve springs and refresh the head. It was heavily ported 6-8 years ago but I did it before I owned the car for Forza (for beer and Pizza:lol:) so I might put some more time in now that it's my car;)

[ajakeski]

Nice pile of slivers you have there.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Our cast iron hybrid header is a step design. Hopefully you only port matched and polished otherwise you just destroyed one of the main benefits of this header. Looks nice though. We usually reface flanges after port matching due to unintentional scarring which inevitably occurs.

Chris-TU


Lol, yeah keep telling yourself its gonna flow better with all the sharp edges and casting flash and I've ruined it by modifying the inside shape:rolleyes: If I thought your concerns had any merit at all, I'd flow it against the one stock header I have left;) Don't get me wrong Chris I think your cast header is a great piece, probably the finest component that TU has ever produced but I also know that I can make it better with a few hours of effort which was the point of this thread:p

What he is saying is, the log part is cast with different inside diameters as it moves toward the turbo inlet, to help move the extra gases added by each cyl while maintaining velocity across the cyls, and also to help prevent reversion to some extent I would guess. If you made the inside of the log section the same size all the way through, it will not, in fact, help your spool much at all as you have destroyed the very part of the design that promotes quicker spooling.

I would guess that opening up the individual runners and turbo inlet and polishing would not affect anything adversely, as long as the internal stepped design was retained. Remember, quality of flow is as important as quantity...

[Chris W]

Lol, yeah keep telling yourself its gonna flow better with all the sharp edges and casting flash and I've ruined it by modifying the inside shape:rolleyes: If I thought your concerns had any merit at all, I'd flow it against the one stock header I have left;) Don't get me wrong Chris I think your cast header is a great piece, probably the finest component that TU has ever produced but I also know that I can make it better with a few hours of effort which was the point of this thread:p

Sorry, for the delayed response. It took me a while to find the flow bench data and photographs off my old hard drive.

I completely agree with you regarding the removal of sharp edges, casting flash, port matching and polishing. This procedure should be completed before installing any cast product for enhanced efficiency and performance. I also commend you on taking the time to do this. I wish everyone who purchased our header would invest the time as well to maximize performance gains. The step design, however, should not be tampered with. Here's the core box for the header. It's difficult to tell with just a photo, but, the passageway diameter increases slightly at each port.

61964

Pat Melendy and I watched Junkyard Ed in Pomona, CA flow a stock factory manifold, ported factory exhaust manifold, Alabama Man log header, TU SS Hybrid header and TU Cast Iron Hybrid Header. Cast version was flow benched a few years later and I am still looking for those pictures. Hopefully Pat has them. The results were as follows:

Stock factory manifold- 325 lbs per min
Ported factory exhaust manifold- 335 lbs per min
Alabama Man log header- 355 lbs per min
TU Stainless Steel Hybrid header (Gen 1)- 400 lbs per min
TU Cast Iron Header (Gen 2)- 484 lbs per min

61960619596196161958

We went through a few different Gen2 core box designs until we settled on the one that flowed the best. If you still feel like the facts hold no merit though I urge you to contact Brian Slowe or Wayne Hemingway regarding his TU Hybrid Header. His boost was initially uncontrollable which required him to enlarge the wastegate port. If this happens with your set up we do have 38mm pucks in stock for the modification necessary.

Your header really looks great Alan. The point of my post was that I didn't want others to read it and to start hogging out their headers thinking they will improve the flow. Port matching and polishing is all that's required. Another concern I had with your set up is will you be using a Gen 1 DBB Turbo with a Gen 2 TU Cast header?

Chris-TU

[moparzrule]

Header would be done buuut, this one didn't get quite enough molten metal in the casting process, I have to have it machined flat at the head face. I'm gonna bill Chris for that 🤑

I've ported plenty of stock manifolds with bad core shift that left the edge thinner than that. Should have no problem sealing at all.

Besides, just looking at the pics, you scraped up the flange pretty badly anyway and it looks like it needs resurfaced just from that.


Lol, yeah keep telling yourself its gonna flow better with all the sharp edges and casting flash and I've ruined it by modifying the inside shape:rolleyes: If I thought your concerns had any merit at all, I'd flow it against the one stock header I have left;) Don't get me wrong Chris I think your cast header is a great piece, probably the finest component that TU has ever produced but I also know that I can make it better with a few hours of effort which was the point of this thread:p

Overall flow would have nothing at all to do with what Chris is even talking about. The entire point of a step tube design is to enhance port velocity as much as possible while giving the extra flow. Of course porting would increase flow, but you could hurt the velocity was his point. I doubt you did, but I believe Chris was just chiming in to warn anyone looking at your thread for porting advice.

I've uploaded a pic of my TU header. After porting and then clearancing for use the the BMF intake, the area that I pointed out was at least as thin as what you have pointed out on yours if not thinner. It sealed just fine.

[GLHNSLHT2]

hope some time was spent on getting a decent short turn radius on it.


The exit of the compressor housing needs attention on a GT30R.

[wheming]

A.J., if you have the time, would you be able to flow test your header before install?
I think your work looks great, and it would be hard to tell from the pictures if you changed the internal dimensions enough to hurt the flow. But, the test would show if there's gains and by how much.
I see Chris' point though, another enthusiast without the same skill set could really botch up a product which is pretty darn good out of the box, thinking that removing more material is a good thing.

My combo way outflowed my ability to bypass around the turbine and i had uncontrollable boost creep. Maybe with your setup (being 5spd) you'll be shifting often enough to keep boost creep in check? You may want to incresse your wastegate port while you are in there.

Looking forward to hearing your results when back together.

Which turbo is it, I think you said GT30, but missed if its a 3071 or 3076?

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

I'd like to see pics of the turbo end of the manifold properly preped and finished ..
especially the inside radius to the flange

[bakes]

Just how many beers were sacrificed in order to finish the porting ????

[moparzrule]

By the looks of how many times the carbide bit skipped out of the ports and hit the flanges, I'd say none of them.

[2.216VTurbo]

By the looks of how many times the carbide bit skipped out of the ports and hit the flanges, I'd say none of them.


That would be zero times that the carbide bit touched the head face side of the flanges MoparzFool. One underlying theme I've noticed in your posts over the years is that you think your the only one who knows how to do sh!t. Have you ever wondered why you rub TM members the wrong way? Probably don't really care tho right? We're all just hacks and you're a God anyway...

Wayne the 86S this header is going on needs to be on a road rally Feb 14th, some if my Porsche buddies have been talking smack and the rally Forza is organizing will be the perfect opportunity for some smackdowns. They don't mean any harm, they're just uninitiated ;-) Not likely gonna be time (Or motivation ) to do any flow testing to show what I already know any way.

As to changing the step design, I don't know why anyone would try to do that, or if its even possible? What would I have to do, hog out the #1 (furthest) runner and leave the others untouched? And yes a bunch of those cast iron slivers were created addressing the short side radious at the turbo flange. IMO there is some substantial gains to be had from that area of the header. It's not quite done BTW, when I get done with the porting on the head I'll make a template that I'll transfer the dimensions onto the header with. Same with the turbine housing.

Back to the garage now, running out of days before the must run again deadline.

[GLHS60]

AJ, I was going to kid you about misspelling porting but not now :)

I don't want a public "tar and feathering" !!!

Too old and feeble.

Looks good !

Thanks
Randy

[wheming]

I understand A.J. it always seems the way that we are doing stuff like this under a deadline that doesn't allow for things like that flow testing.
My interest would be in know how much improvement you get, or it capable by spending a little time working with already a high flowing product. Wonder if yours would have been pushing closer to 500 #/min. You already will be gaining the difference of at least 84#/min just from the 2 designs.

Should be enough to put some snobby Porsche owners in their place?

I'm considering getting another TU header for Slug's eventual rebuild. So I'll be keeping an eye on your results and final impression.

[iTurbo]

Don't let anybody get to you AJ. I've gotten flak before too and there is always somebody out there that can theoretically do it better. It looks really good from here.

The flanges look fine to me unless Moparzrule wants to get a straightedge out and measure those pics. Freaking internet.

[moparzrule]

That would be zero times that the carbide bit touched the head face side of the flanges MoparzFool. One underlying theme I've noticed in your posts over the years is that you think your the only one who knows how to do sh!t. Have you ever wondered why you rub TM members the wrong way? Probably don't really care tho right? We're all just hacks and you're a God anyway...


Really, name calling? Thats mature.

I seem to recall you porting more than just the head face side of the manifold, but I guess that doesn't fit into your narrative very well.

The underlying theme is calling out people who think they know what they are doing and try to instruct others. Anyone that asks for porting advice I gladly give many tips and tricks to.

Honestly I wouldn't have even bothered to respond to your thread until I saw the way you replied to Chris. You completely misinterpreted the reasoning for his post, as expected from your reading comprehension skills, and I explained that in my first post. You didn't reply at all to the factual post, only to the trolling post with a lame response. Congrats.

[cordes]

This feels like the last episode of Seinfeld. I'm pretty sure we've been here before. Can we avoid another insane thread in which people threaten physical violence over the porting of exhaust manifolds please? We were making memes in the last one before most of us knew that they were memes. Perhaps we've become older and wiser?

[masterjr33]

gotta love the internet.. the other guy on the other end of the keyboard is always better than you.
everyone loves making snarky personal comments.

I really don't see a ton of PORTING in the sense of changing shapes and directions. and volumes.

I see some gasket matching and some flash removal.

Maybee all the internet warriors. and keyboard heros can get off the soap box of trying to convince other people how bad those people are and how awesome they are.

MAYBE as a community we should build each other up and not constantly try to bash each other to make ourselves feel better.
Maybe some of you people need to get over yourselves. Maybe you arent perfect.. I mean you are still screwing around with 30 year old 4 cyl dodge cars.. . have some humility.


This is all I hear:

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/26814719_158820741563855_8116520716733679340_n.jpg ?oh=43b489a34a4881315809d8a58b4762a0&oe=5AE7B660


https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/26951863_158820814897181_4805134040514657180_o.jpg ?oh=58f6717c37e52322349e6316257d5350&oe=5AE2CA91

[iTurbo]

Let's all step back and remember that this is a hobby and we do it for fun.

I do like seeing other peoples work myself, even though there are a lot of things I have no experience with (porting, ECU tuning etc).

It looked to me like AJ had a critique of the header and Chris responded professionally and can defend his products just fine.

And...Moparzrule you are digging yourself a hole by labeling all of us as drunken idiots. If you think you're so much better than everybody else than fine. But don't expect anybody to listen to your rants.

[Wastelands Warrior]

Chuck Norris' beard does the best porting of all!

[moparzrule]

Chuck Norris' beard does the best porting of all!

Now that I cannot argue with :nod: haha

[iTurbo]

There is a way to make your point and you are failing at it terribly. There is a time and place for letting it all hang out and describing SDAC attendants as a bunch of drunken idiots will get you nowhere. Most of these guys work on their cars all year, and SDAC is where they can unwind and show their stuff. I would imagine a lot of them take vacation from their jobs to attend and have a good time.

If you climbed out of a hole, I'm happy for you, but I think Chris is perfectly capable of defending his products without you making an --- of yourself.

[135sohc]

The bulk of the garbage has been removed. It should stay that way.


but I think Chris is perfectly capable of defending his products without you making an --- of yourself.

Amen...

[2.216VTurbo]

More progress yesterday, this is gonna be a sweet upgrade!

[wheming]

I think you are going to like that.

[Chris W]

You will have issues using that turbo with the cast header.

Chris-TU

[2.216VTurbo]

You will have issues using that turbo with the cast header.

Chris-TU
You know it's not a P Body right?😉 I still have a few days before there is any kind of mock up, I still have to disassemble, modify the head a lil(TU cast header support complete removal of the D area of the exhaust ports so why wouldn't I cut them out😎) clean up the shape and the casting flash *inside the turbo and SV assembly, maybe mess with the 90 degree on the Intake mani etc but since I haven't run into fitment issues yet, what challenges do you see during reassembly? On a more private note to you Chris (on a public forum right?😁) we've known each other over 20 years right? And while I have made many positive observations and feedback with TU parts, I've had some critiques of the ones that I felt came up short of my expectations (It's human nature to dwell on those and more harshly remember that subset I suspect) in no way did I expect my OP in this thread would be taken as a bash on the header, I just wanted to show some cutting skilz to improve on the design and tho I made a call out on the 'air bubble' (not my term but mentioned in the thread) at the head flange that was just an observation(still gonna bill you for that tho😉). Did I mention that I'm excited about this upgrade to the TU cast header?) I belive in the header enough to have bought 5 of them over the years. More progress lics to follow. So call off your troll (JK Bro ;-) )

[bakes]

Just can't wait to see it up and running again .

[Chris W]

You know it's not a P Body right?😉 I still have a few days before there is any kind of mock up, I still have to disassemble, modify the head a lil(TU cast header support complete removal of the D area of the exhaust ports so why wouldn't I cut them out😎) clean up the shape and the casting flash *inside the turbo and SV assembly, maybe mess with the 90 degree on the Intake mani etc but since I haven't run into fitment issues yet, what challenges do you see during reassembly? On a more private note to you Chris (on a public forum right?😁) we've known each other over 20 years right? And while I have made many positive observations and feedback with TU parts, I've had some critiques of the ones that I felt came up short of my expectations (It's human nature to dwell on those and more harshly remember that subset I suspect) in no way did I expect my OP in this thread would be taken as a bash on the header, I just wanted to show some cutting skilz to improve on the design and tho I made a call out on the 'air bubble' (not my term but mentioned in the thread) at the head flange that was just an observation(still gonna bill you for that tho😉). Did I mention that I'm excited about this upgrade to the TU cast header?) I belive in the header enough to have bought 5 of them over the years. More progress lics to follow. So call off your troll (JK Bro ;-) )



Parts that are cast will have flashing, parting lines and core shift which requires port matching. Everything you have done so far looks great and you will be rewarded for your time invested. Would be interested in seeing what your finished product flows. Take it to Ed!!

Now, on to the issue mixing Gen 1 DBB GT Turbo with Gen2 Hybrid header Space becomes considerably tight behind the engine because our Hybrid Header shifts the entire turbo over around 3 inches. The larger than stock GT compressor cover/wastegate actuator has to contend with the heater core tubes, brake booster and firewall on all the body platforms. The early Gen1 DBB GT Turbo CHRA was machined a little bit deeper into the compressor cover than the Gen2 creating a conflict with the transmission case. Bolt the engine and transmission together before test fitting the older turbo on our Gen2 header. Removing the small amount of material from the transmission case is alot easier when it's not in the engine bay. Or you could just swap to a Gen2 turbo and your problem would be solved.

Sorry, but it's only been about a year since I have known you AJ. However, I once met a guy named Alan Jones 25 years ago at a CA SDAC event in Las Vegas. 😃 I also met Tim Pettijohn, Pat Pedroza, Guy Pagan and Jim Craig. Yes, you have purchased quite a few parts from me over the years. The only critiquing I recalled was regarding our Stage 3 Yellow clutch. You thought we just painted a stock pressure plate yellow and called it an upgrade. You were skeptical but praised the clutch a few years later once you installed it. I will forever be indebted to you though for your support in 2007 when you brought the plastic TU cast header replica for display at SDAC. What you did was unexpected and VERY much appreciated.

Matt is passionate about the porting work he does. I feel the same way about the products we sell. Sometimes things are typed without using our own personal keyboard filters. I know I have been guilty of that myself. Our intentions are good though and we just want to convey the experiences we have had over the years.

Chris-TU

[masterjr33]

More progress yesterday, this is gonna be a sweet upgrade!

what sort of chamber work do you have there.

[Chris W]

Another TU Hybrid Header install we are closely following :

https://www.facebook.com/groups/chryslerlbodycars/permalink/786655818187312/

[2.216VTurbo]

what sort of chamber work do you have there.

Sharp eye:eyebrows: Upon teardown this motor is full of surprises:eyebrows: I thought I had ported this head for Forza (the PO) back in the day but I guess the one I did was for his other S or his CSX or his Consulier or... He's had dozens of SD/TM's Anyway, this one is CNC ported and I like what they did in the chambers:eyebrows: I still gotta get the valves out to see what attention the bowls need if any. I definitely want more width out of the runners but I think i'll need less than 2 hours of cutting for that. Other surprise so far is that the block is O ringed. Kinda old skool but still kewl:nod: I'll take more pics as I go along.

[masterjr33]

Looking forward to more pics. valves look stock? or at least un remarkable. there is still a gap between them.
CNC chambers huh... wonder if anyone is still doing that. or has the programs and just doesn't advertise.
Im looking at a G head i would like the chamber done on.
its just much more specific precise porting than runners i dont want anyone to try it by hand.
other than a simple lay back on one wall.

[2.216VTurbo]

G head is a different animal, first one I reworked in the summer of 89 (for the red 87S) I'm sure I ruined. The machine shop I swept the floors at in Judsonia Arkansas (in trade for being allowed to use the machines and expertice of Max and Jackie the two brothers that owned Hughes Machine ,the builders of Bill 'Golden' Mavericks Lil Red Express) At the time the conventional wisdom and theory on turbo motors was leave inane side of the head alone, force boost thru it and concentrate on making exhaust side flow (hey wait, that's still the theory 30 years later lol) we sourced some INTAKE valves from a 1.8l Caterpillar diesel motor to use as EXHAUST valve in the G head, we only had to shorten them and recut the keeper groove. The stems were the correct .313 fortunately so kept the guides. I hogged the Sh!t outta those bowls and ports. The lil red car that all the deer eating locals hated on at the local tracks because it was a 'four banger went from 9.70's in the 1/8th to 8.99 dial in. Kinda a big deal back in the stone ages😁 Anyway G can flow crazy numbers for an 8V head(😛) just takes extra time and parts. And a tune but that's so easy these days at least for you kids that want to understand and dabble in calibrations.

[Shadow]

At the time the conventional wisdom and theory on turbo motors was leave intake side of the head alone, force boost thru it and concentrate on making exhaust side flow (hey wait, that's still the theory 30 years later lol)

Did you then, and do you now, Actually believe this to be correct?

I have heard many "theories" over the years, none quite as stone age as this though. Most thought that while porting they wanted to keep port velocities high, so ported, but not Over ported.

You're saying leave the intake side untouched or just cleaned up with stock vales and all?

IF this is what you have done, I think we just found your slow spool issue ;)

[masterjr33]

My old dirt gold van was running 9.0's at 77 back in the day.. really ticked off some people at the local track. I know the feeling.
I wonder how that cat intake valve tolerated the exhaust heat of the turbo..
I think we have learned that in general turbos like larger intake and exhaust now.
You see a turbo on a v8 making 700HP.. and a turbo on a 2.5 making 250HP.. the first thing i looked at was intake port size.
Growing up around 5.0's I watched people in the beginning using stock heads. and stock cams. Swearing by them. 8-12 PSI making 450HP.

Then i watched people go from stock 130CC intake runner heads to aftermarket heads with 160-180CC runners.
They power went into the 600 HP range at the same boost levels... Then watched them actually swap cams around and gain 50-60HP as well.

The voodoo and hysteria did not prove to work.. the bias and repeated "un-knowlege" was keeping people slow.

I sorta see the same thing here.. everyone says stock heads and stock cams. turn up the boost.
they make 210-270HP.. Then you see people with larger ported heads and bigger cams pushing into the 300-500HP range..
Really tells you that their is alot of power to be made making more air flow through the engine. then stacking boost on top of more air.

I personally would be very interested in some intake runner sizes and CC's. yes flow matters.. but the best flowing microscopic runner is only going to flow the same air or less as a medicore runner with twice the volume. You can be efficient with a bucket of water putting out a campfire... or inefficient with a 55gal drum of water.

[thedon809]

Hog them babies out. She ain't done till a tennis ball fits through them ports.

[Reaper1]

For those trying to learn from this thread, "hogging out" is NOT a good solution. For the experienced, I think we can all agree that different set-ups require different levels of modification. A person wanting a good street driving 300hp car does not need, and will not benefit from a full race ported huge runner volume head. Port velocity STILL matters!

[thedon809]

I was joking.

[2.216VTurbo]

Did you then, and do you now, Actually believe this to be correct?

I have heard many "theories" over the years, none quite as stone age as this though. Most thought that while porting they wanted to keep port velocities high, so ported, but not Over ported.

You're saying leave the intake side untouched or just cleaned up with stock vales and all?

IF this is what you have done, I think we just found your slow spool issue ;)

Lol, the theory I subscribe to isn't hamper the Intake side flow and only concentrate on exhaust flow but rather, optimise both buuut make the exhaust outflow the Intake. IMO thats one of the basic tennants of a healthy turbo motor. Sure, there are a thousand other factors but that one is basic.

Just to review, this isn't an all out big HP build on this car bit mostly pull the head, do some upgrades and Get a very healthy 2.2 running again-on a deadline! Ijad znother late day ay eotk so difnt get the head apart yet but im prdtty fure i hsve 3 hours tomorrow to get the head ready to drop off at the machine shop Friday.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

OK ,
original post called for a SC "road race" build with TU manifold and GT series turbo

Cool .. had my attention from the start .. have similar " " project

first question is GT .. what ??.. size ?

.. and I hope you have a dash camera for this ..

as for porting the TU manifold .. beyond making it "look good" to the eye and finishing out the entrance to the turbo , discussion of "porting" it is kinda moot

..IT IS after the TU manifold .. and in person it is KINDA fat
the posted numbers would back that up

"porting" the individual port runner entrances is moot beyond "this matches MY head"
- and all will differ to a degree

as for the manifold , I haven't checked the individual entrances to compare actual as cast sizes
BUT
the step design seems notable in the main log section of the casting

saying it's a definite, measureable change in shape and size

as for the individual runner sections , they look like repeats of the same casting section to me with the only differences being the as cast thickness' and bolt provisions being slightly different

the first improvement of the TU manifold has to be it's out and away design as opposed to the factory out , down and away design thus eliminating one entire right angle from each port runner

it's this change that makes the step design of the main log now worth while ..(I'd think)

you could well make an effort to hog out each runner a little larger as you move towards the turbo .. but the runners become so much shorter it's PROBABLY more an expression of ocd than anything

my own ocd says MAYBE my hobby sized sand blaster MIGHT just help smooth out some of the main log section that I might not be able to grind on ... maybe
- and probably only on the back wall of the casting .. which might be good (the right spot)

[moparzrule]

A sandblaster definitely will not smooth any casting flash in a TU header, there's way to high of nickel content in the manifold....it's extremely hard.

AJ- You're theory of exhaust out flowing the intake for a healthy turbo motor I would have to disagree with. This is one area that Shadow and I have always agreed on, and his build pretty much proved it IMO. Him and I have always been the largest advocates of the stock exhaust manifolds capabilities. Any good turbo cam has more duration/lift on the intake side for a reason, it's been proven more effective to increase flow on intake side more than exhaust. So if you could explain why you believe exhaust should outflow the intake, I'd like to hear why you believe this.

[Shadow]

Hog them babies out. She ain't done till a tennis ball fits through them ports.

:lol: (I got it! ;))


Lol, the theory I subscribe to isn't hamper the Intake side flow and only concentrate on exhaust flow but rather, optimise both buuut make the exhaust outflow the Intake. IMO thats one of the basic tennants of a healthy turbo motor. Sure, there are a thousand other factors but that one is basic.

So you didn't mean to say this then, "At the time the conventional wisdom and theory on turbo motors was leave intake side of the head alone, force boost thru it and concentrate on making exhaust side flow (hey wait, that's still the theory 30 years later lol)"? Because what you described here Would be Exactly what you are now say you "don't subscribe to"?

Not trying to push your buttons AJ, just making sure there isn't a "red flag" situation here that is crippling your efforts across the board. I think I get what your trying to say though.



Just to review, this isn't an all out big HP build on this car bit mostly pull the head, do some upgrades and Get a very healthy 2.2 running again-on a deadline! Ijad znother late day ay eotk so difnt get the head apart yet but im prdtty fure i hsve 3 hours tomorrow to get the head ready to drop off at the machine shop Friday.

And to be perfectly clear, the build objective IS relevant. As stated, Not an all out Big HP build, so there is no need for the largest valves you can fit and port volume that will support .550 lift cam. Just surprised me when you posted "leave the intake side alone" as in, don't touch it.

Figured you were a little more experienced than that, just wanted to be sure.

[4 l-bodies]

I would be very curious to see what a 2 valve per cylinder head looks like where the exhaust outflows the intake. Show me one and I'll show you a seriously hampered intake side of head (lol). Then to come up with a camshaft that would work good with that. I know of zero grinds for 8V 2.2's that would be a good fit. Most good flowing 4 valve per cylinder stock heads are no better than 85% E/I (by design). My last BV head avg. out to be exactly 80% exhaust to intake FLOW ratio. Ranging from 75.1 to 83.5 where cam sees most of its action. Cylinder head had great CFM #'s on both intake & exhaust.

[DodgeZ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU

[cordes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU

I've seen videos where old school 426 hemis pick up 60 HP for a header change. Does that video just show that the headers weren't the problem in that system, or is there a greater point that I'm missing? We know that a ported exhaust manifold really helps spool and power. Presumably the TU piece helps too as long as you can get good flow to the inlet of the turbo in your application, as there are known clearance issues with some combinations. This much you know, unfortunately.

[DodgeZ]

I've seen videos where old school 426 hemis pick up 60 HP for a header change. Does that video just show that the headers weren't the problem in that system, or is there a greater point that I'm missing? We know that a ported exhaust manifold really helps spool and power. Presumably the TU piece helps too as long as you can get good flow to the inlet of the turbo in your application, as there are known clearance issues with some combinations. This much you know, unfortunately.

I post a 13 minute long video, you reply in 9 minutes asking questions... Watch the whole video, jack --- ;)

[cordes]

I post a 13 minute long video, you reply in 9 minutes asking questions... Watch the whole video, jack --- ;)

As a fan of that program, I've seen it before.

ETA: If you cut out the pitch for the various products it's darn near a 9 minute video anyway.

[mopar-tech]

I've seen videos where old school 426 hemis pick up 60 HP for a header change.

My 5.9 Magnum Duster picked up 72 horsepower going from 318 exhaust manifolds to Dougs headers.

Just swapping in headers with no other changes, the car jumped from 14.1 to 13.49 and with carb tuning and opening the dumps walked it down to 13.0.

318 manifolds really suck when you are putting out 400 hp.

[thedon809]

I think SRT Shorty's are worth quite a bit on a 5.7 hemi.

[cordes]

I think SRT Shorty's are worth quite a bit on a 5.7 hemi.

I have no personal experience with it, but I've read they're good for a solid 20hp.

[mopar-tech]

I think SRT Shorty's are worth quite a bit on a 5.7 hemi.

It all depends on what your baseline is. 318 manifolds embrace the suck, lots to be had there going to headers.. The factory SRT are almost a shorty header so you gain less going to a true header..

Long tubes tend to make the most ponies.

[GLHNSLHT2]

What about going long tubes on a 5.7? SRT's are 6.1 and 6.4's and the port shape is different than the 5.7.

[Shadow]

Warning Possible thread Jack alert!

AFAIK long tubes are the best option on the 5.7's. Been years since I looked into it, but I believe they gave the best gains in HP/ TQ And fuel economy.

[DodgeZ]

They say that shorty headers don't get you any gains over the factory SRT clamshells headers. You have to go long tubes for gains. I'd note I have a set of low mileage ones for sell off a hellcat and mid pipes.

The opinion that I got from the Engine Masters video is that the headers were way bigger than needed. So smashing them didn't change the size much as it squeezed out or smaller size was still big enough. Clearly the shape didn't matter.

I love the engine masters series because it cuts through the mystical "facts" from long lived legends (Like how you can't run a Felpro head gasket) and gets down to real dyno numbers.

I'd bet AJ's work won't change his dyno numbers. Just a guess. Looks great though!

[Shadow]

The opinion that I got from the Engine Masters video is that the headers were way bigger than needed. So smashing them didn't change the size much as it squeezed out or smaller size was still big enough.

Without any other info that would have been my opinion as well, mtr didn't need that large of a diam header in the first place.

If I could have asked a question;

Did they first dyno with different sized (primary diam) headers to establish most efficient exhaust flow before test?

One thing I have found to be consistent;

Exhaust is like life, it always finds a way........

[2.216VTurbo]

It all depends on what your baseline is. 318 manifolds embrace the suck, lots to be had there going to headers.. The factory SRT are almost a shorty header so you gain less going to a true header..

Long tubes tend to make the most ponies.

I built a Shelby Dakota motor in my driveway for a local SoCal SDAC member like 20 yeas ago, IIRC (tougher to do these days:lol:) When porting the heads and manifolds(he didn't want to swap to headers because of Cali emmissions laws) was a huge flow obstructing speedhump in the exhaust ports. What's the point of that area of the port, any idea?

[moparzrule]

I built a Shelby Dakota motor in my driveway for a local SoCal SDAC member like 20 yeas ago, IIRC (tougher to do these days:lol:) When porting the heads and manifolds(he didn't want to swap to headers because of Cali emmissions laws) was a huge flow obstructing speedhump in the exhaust ports. What's the point of that area of the port, any idea?

EGR, the shelby dakota heads just didn't have the holes drilled for it but same casting heads still had the humps.

[thedon809]

It all depends on what your baseline is. 318 manifolds embrace the suck, lots to be had there going to headers.. The factory SRT are almost a shorty header so you gain less going to a true header..

Long tubes tend to make the most ponies.I meant that installing the factory srt headers on a 5.7 is worth a decent bit. I installed long tubes on a 5.7 challenger. Have to be a contortionist to tighten all the bolts...

[2.216VTurbo]

Progress on the head today, about four hours of grinding and polishing. Did 2 hours of it after dark outside with a good LED light. I haven't ported after dark in at least a decade. Not sure if it's gonna be better or worse in the daylight:lol: I raised the ish outta the roofs in the exhaust ports, kinda regretting the decision to use stock sized valves. On a deadline tho. Gonna use all new valves and 4 new guides on the hot valves, they were pretty loose. Intakes are fine like usual tho.

[minigts]

Looks great AJ! Wish I had the time and skills to do porting and welding. You did or didn't say you were going to get flow numbers for it? Interested to see how well it will flow.

[masterjr33]

Progress on the head today, about four hours of grinding and polishing. Did 2 hours of it after dark outside with a good LED light. I haven't ported after dark in at least a decade. Not sure if it's gonna be better or worse in the daylight:lol: I raised the ish outta the roofs in the exhaust ports, kinda regretting the decision to use stock sized valves. On a deadline tho. Gonna use all new valves and 4 new guides on the hot valves, they were pretty loose. Intakes are fine like usual tho.

Grab the locking valve guides from cindy to prevent them from dropping. dont forget "hemi" valve stem seals.

[johnl]

Good stuff AJ

[moparzrule]

Grab the locking valve guides from cindy to prevent them from dropping. dont forget "hemi" valve stem seals.

My machine shop gets me C-clipped guides. I paid $24 last time.....IE $3 a piece.

[masterjr33]

great idea. but the intakes rarely suffer from the drop that the exhaust does. :-) and support our vendors.
buy from Turbos unleashed or FWD performance.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

yeah but , buying them from the machinist should mean you get the size you need

I bought the guides with the clips , in both std size and oversize .. just in case as my head hasn't been to the shop for machining yet

[thedon809]

I bought a reman g-head from the bay and after a while started burning some oil. Half the damn guides dropped down a decent bit. Annoying.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I would be very curious to see what a 2 valve per cylinder head looks like where the exhaust outflows the intake. Show me one and I'll show you a seriously hampered intake side of head (lol). Then to come up with a camshaft that would work good with that. I know of zero grinds for 8V 2.2's that would be a good fit. Most good flowing 4 valve per cylinder stock heads are no better than 85% E/I (by design). My last BV head avg. out to be exactly 80% exhaust to intake FLOW ratio. Ranging from 75.1 to 83.5 where cam sees most of its action. Cylinder head had great CFM #'s on both intake & exhaust.


Going off memory as I don't feel like digging out the paperwork but I think my Masi exhaust out-flows the intake.

[2.216VTurbo]

Going off memory as I don't feel like digging out the paperwork but I think my Masi exhaust out-flows the intake.

It does and pretty much the Masi head was what I was referencing. Not super excited about a porting debate in this thread, just pics and discussion of whst I've done. Dropped the head and the TU Header off at the machine shop today.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Looks good. Unshrouding the valves like that increases flow and diminishes the swirl effect, right?

[2.216VTurbo]

Head is back from the shop, the guys at Precision Cylinder Head in Lake Forest do mostly stock rebuild type stuff so I think the two brothers that run it get a little pumped when something out of the ordinary shows up. They had it a total of 5 days and I think I got 4 calls with set up questions. While hanging out and shooting the breeze I watched them setting up a Subaru head, I didn't know that they were shim over bucket (like the Masi's) and the last had to be set for each valve, time consuming for sure!. I got the idea for making a tool that will make their jobs a little easier. I'll be in it an hour and less than $10. And I'm sure they'll like it:nod:

I spent about 9 hours this week disassembling and cutting the turbo housing and TU 3" SV assembly. Even with penetrant and heating with the torch I snapped one bolt off in the turbine housing and left the threads from a couple others in there so I had to source out some replacement hardware:o . In this guys opinion there is a lot of cutting and polishing to be performed INSIDE the turbo, I spent about 4.5 hours on the turbine housing and 2 hours inside the compressor housing. One area (where I've never seen anyone else mod so I'm claiming it as my idea;) ) is the Volute, that little divider wall between the incoming and outgoing charges. Due to the casting process of the housings and no actual matching processes on them, there is a lot of work/improvements to be done there, most of the porting/cutting is done with a parting wheel. It's the only thing that will fit in there where the shaping needs to be done. Compare the casting flash and unfinished shape of the before pics to the thinned and reshaped after pics. I also cut out any flashing that I could reach inside the housings using 3 different diameter cutting wheels. In the swingvalve assembly most of the time was spent increasing the throat size on the inlet and the waste gate bypass area. I like that Chris designed lots of meat there for extensive reshaping/enlarging. Check the pics, I think I should have use a flash on the before pics because you dontvreally see that bypass area or the throat termination into the scroll. Oh we, next time.

[thedon809]

It seems like no matter what, I snap at least one swingvalve bolt. Even if I had them out like a month prior lol.

[cordes]

That looks great AJ. The first person I heard of porting the turbo like that was 5digits, but I'm sure it goes back even before him. I bet that thing will flow much better with all the work you've put into it. Those little things really add up in my experience.

[moparzrule]

All good improvements. Did you port the wastegate hole? Wasn't a pic so wasn't sure if you did. Definitely helps with boost spiking and/or creep control in my experience, especially with the TU swingvalve with that huge puck you can really hog that baby out.

[Shadow]

Guys have been porting the inside of turbo housings both cold and hot side since before I even wrenched on my first turbo car, along with complete extrude honing as well. We can keep it our little secret if you'd like though ;)

Having said that, it all looks Good! :nod:

One Q.

What is pic one showing?

It looks like you smoothed the comp housing "wheel contour" with something. What exactly is going on there?

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

kinda interested in the Harley/Lightning F150 engine swap /re&re /somthin' I see in the corner
... now ..
air box and oval TB hose gives it away (01 F150 owner lol)

[Chris W]

In the swingvalve assembly most of the time was spent increasing the throat size on the inlet and the waste gate bypass area. I like that Chris designed lots of meat there for extensive reshaping/enlarging. Check the pics, I think I should have use a flash on the before pics because you dontvreally see that bypass area or the throat termination into the scroll. Oh we, next time.

It only cost us a few extra dollars to manufacture a thicker swing valve housing so we designed it in. Glad you were able to take advantage of it Mr. Jones. Looking good!

Chris-TU

[2.216VTurbo]

kinda interested in the Harley/Lightning F150 engine swap /re&re /somthin' I see in the corner
... now ..
air box and oval TB hose gives it away (01 F150 owner lol)

Lol, pics are so small on my phone screen that one got mixed in. We were putting new cam chains/guides/adjusters on my Brothers 04 Lightening this weekend. Runs amazing now. Old guides/sliders were down to metal and the hydraulic adjusters couldn't extend the guides any further to take up chain slack. Was making scary noises:confused: I'm sure the +2PSI lower pulley helped its new vigor too:eyebrows:

[2.216VTurbo]

Guys have been porting the inside of turbo housings both cold and hot side since before I even wrenched on my first turbo car, along with complete extrude honing as well. We can keep it our little secret if you'd like though ;)

Having said that, it all looks Good! :nod:

One Q.

What is pic one showing?

It looks like you smoothed the comp housing "wheel contour" with something. What exactly is going on there?


In this mans opinion that circumfrential ridge that can be seen and felt on the face of the compressor housing isn't a design feature but rather a limitation of the machining process where two angles meet. So on this turbo like every other I carefully erase the ridge with a composite wheel using caution to remove as little material as possible. Likely its one of those things I do that has little or no effect on spool or boost production. Kinda like the radious I add to the exducer area of the turbine housing, looks good to me, feels good in my hands but little or no effect;) Looks like I didn't add a pic of that, I'm on my tablet but lemme see if I can edit/add from my phone where pics are...


EDIT: looks like I didn't take any pics of that side of the housing. If I get home before dark today I'll take one of what I did so I can get flamed for it:lol:

[Wastelands Warrior]

Lol, pics are so small on my phone screen that one got mixed in. We were putting new cam chains/guides/adjusters on my Brothers 04 Lightening this weekend. Runs amazing now. Old guides/sliders were down to metal and the hydraulic adjusters couldn't extend the guides any further to take up chain slack. Was making scary noises:confused: I'm sure the +2PSI lower pulley helped its new vigor too:eyebrows:

I always liked those Lightnings. A buddy of mine had one that was built up but unfortunately it got totaled.

[mock_glh]

It seems like no matter what, I snap at least one swingvalve bolt. Even if I had them out like a month prior lol.
Back in the early 70's I worked at a place called Irontite, when they were in California. They have a lead based anti seize compound that works great for high temp exhaust stuff. It's kind of pricey but I've had my can since the summer of '72 and I'm still using it.
http://www.irontite.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=88

[thedon809]

Back in the early 70's I worked at a place called Irontite, when they were in California. They have a lead based anti seize compound that works great for high temp exhaust stuff. It's kind of pricey but I've had my can since the summer of '72 and I'm still using it.
http://www.irontite.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=88I actually just removed a swingvalve and I broke non of the bolts. I was so happy. Wastegate e clip went flying though.

[2.216VTurbo]

2 hours of grinding-for just one hole:(

[Chris W]

I actually just removed a swingvalve and I broke non of the bolts. I was so happy. Wastegate e clip went flying though.

That's because the car came from AZ, we only had about 2000 miles on that turbo and we usually use anti-seize on the bolts. An old trick we use is tying lightweight fishing line to the swing valve e clip so they can be easily retrieved. I know you have plenty of fishing line laying around. LOL!!



Chris-TU

[thedon809]

That's because the car came from AZ, we only had about 2000 miles on that turbo and we usually use anti-seize on the bolts. An old trick we use is tying lightweight fishing line to the swing valve e clip so they can be easily retrieved. I know you have plenty of fishing line laying around. LOL!!



Chris-TUThat's a really good idea about the eclip. Some of the bolts were a little iffy. You know when they break loose and then get hard to turn again. I used my little map torch for good measure.

[2.216VTurbo]

Almost done.

[cordes]

Looking good AJ. That looks strikingly similar to the two piece that’s going on Joy’s Daytona

[bakes]

I like

[2.216VTurbo]

So close, final templating mock up and hopefully reassembly :o

[Nemesismachine]

great idea. but the intakes rarely suffer from the drop that the exhaust does. :-) and support our vendors.
buy from Turbos unleashed or FWD performance.
Says the user who doesn't support the site? Classy move.

:lol:

[masterjr33]

Says the user who doesn't support the site? Classy move.

:lol:

You go through 5 pages of responses..
to reply to something I said 2 months ago.
That is not on the main topic.
and does not contribute towards the conversation in the thread.
to personally attack and then insult me.

Are you under the impression that this would be a convincing argument to get me to support the sight now?
Are you under the impression that anyone else reading this would be convinced to support here with replies like that?

Please review your approach, contribution and timing.

For your personal information...
I have a TD.. so im on two forums there.
I have a old volvo brick.. 3 more forums
that I run in chumpcar and 24 hours lemons.. 2 more forums there.
My wife has a WRX that i maintain. thats 2 more forums.
I have a CJ5 i am on 3 jeep boards.
I also daily a focus beater. 2 focus boards.

So no I do not contribute money to 14 different car forum boards... Sorry.







in other news.. ..
2.216VTurbo - intake looks great. Would love to see what the runners on the head looks like if they are finished now.

[2.216VTurbo]

Ready for MATS with hours to spare!!!

[johnl]

A thing of beauty. Do well.

[wheming]

Looks really nice AJ!
Nice work. I can't wait to hear your results!

[GLHNSLHT2]

looks good, love the camber plates to better the camber curve and lower the roll center of the car. Do we have pics of the car grill less so we can see the i/c???

[csxtra]

Nice work AJ, good luck at MATS!

[cordes]

That looks great AJ. What's the score on that catch can setup?

[2.216VTurbo]

Never runs quite as well at the track as it does at home for some reason? Only two passes ALL DAY over 10 oil downs and guess what from the cheap a$$ management for MATS?? Think we get to use all 4 lanes to race?? Nope. My last year of this event they have slowly eroded the quality over the last 15 years. The concert and show at the host hotel (always was Cannery off Craig rd now at Downtown grand sux BTW)always a high point of the event for me. No name band this year(they've had Fogghat and Queensryche fer chrissake) and they're charging $15. For the privilege. Should I go into how lousy the food trucks are?? Crap quality. Wanted a protein style burger yesterday on lettuce/tomatoes no bun, lady says they only have pickles and onions. I point out that their billboard picture shows a big glorious burger with both lettuce and tomatoes, oh, we dont have that this weekend sir. F this event now. Not worth the effort. Over it.

[2.216VTurbo]

Look mom, I'm famous. And it only cost me $40. To buy my way into the club...

[wheming]

That was alot of work, only to be disappointed by the event.
But at least you can enjoy the fruits of all that labor when you take it out for normal rides.

[DOHCRT]

Never runs quite as well at the track as it does at home for some reason? Only two passes ALL DAY over 10 oil downs and guess what from the cheap a$$ management for MATS?? Think we get to use all 4 lanes to race?? Nope. My last year of this event they have slowly eroded the quality over the last 15 years. The concert and show at the host hotel (always was Cannery off Craig rd now at Downtown grand sux BTW)always a high point of the event for me. No name band this year(they've had Fogghat and Queensryche fer chrissake) and they're charging $15. For the privilege. Should I go into how lousy the food trucks are?? Crap quality. Wanted a protein style burger yesterday on lettuce/tomatoes no bun, lady says they only have pickles and onions. I point out that their billboard picture shows a big glorious burger with both lettuce and tomatoes, oh, we dont have that this weekend sir. F this event now. Not worth the effort. Over it.
I agree Alan, I haven't been since 2013. Defiantly more focused on making money than providing a good event. Not worth my time and effort even though its only 4 hours away.

[85glht]

Never runs quite as well at the track as it does at home for some reason? Only two passes ALL DAY over 10 oil downs and guess what from the cheap a$$ management for MATS?? Think we get to use all 4 lanes to race?? Nope. My last year of this event they have slowly eroded the quality over the last 15 years. The concert and show at the host hotel (always was Cannery off Craig rd now at Downtown grand sux BTW)always a high point of the event for me. No name band this year(they've had Fogghat and Queensryche fer chrissake) and they're charging $15. For the privilege. Should I go into how lousy the food trucks are?? Crap quality. Wanted a protein style burger yesterday on lettuce/tomatoes no bun, lady says they only have pickles and onions. I point out that their billboard picture shows a big glorious burger with both lettuce and tomatoes, oh, we dont have that this weekend sir. F this event now. Not worth the effort. Over it.

What you have described is what happened to the Mopar show at Englishtown NJ. (RIP). Was great for a while, then the quality of the whole show went into the toilet.... Now E-town is closed...

[2.216VTurbo]

MATS can now die too as far as I care. they squeezed all the goodness out of it, I get that it must be pofitable but they can do it without my support going forward. 15 years of good times, RIP

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

lol
your pics show exactly the "I don't get this" part of drag racing

spent thousands , if not tens of , to build and prep a car then go stand in line forever waiting to drive the car for only a few seconds

I REALLY don't "get" that , not at all ...

kinda like shopping on saturday morning

I'd rather drive the car all day doing laps ...

[2.216VTurbo]

Here's the capper of the suck that is MATS now, the big event, the Saturday evening car show and free concert for folks with event wristbands, bands like Queesryche and Foghat have played-good bands. This year it was Las Vegas rock Orchestra? :mad: WTF:mad: Oh and fo the priveledge, it's $15. now. Our last runs were running late, by the time me and my bro got to Fremont street area, they wouldn't let the GLHS onto the 'showfield' and the concert ended at 9! It's Vegas MATS organizers! People stay up later than 930! Dumba$$es.:confused: We got a good meal on Fremont street and people watched with refreshing beverages til midnight, I didn't even attempt a pass Sunday, hit the 5 hour drive home Sunday at 9am.

One of the issues I fought was the motor was SLOOWWW to build boost and even with the grainger maxed I could only get 18-19PSI, so much for the 26 that was my goal. I checked cam timing, I checked EVERY connection, all over the vac harness, everything I could think of. Couldn't find it. Painful waiting til 4500 for the 18PSI I could get.

Get home, unload the car at sea level, it feels a little peppier but not right still. heading to my house it starts to buck/surge like MAP issue so I pull into a spray and wash and start cutting all the tape off the loom of the vac harness. 15 minutes later, there's the culprit. The 1/4" factory hard line that goes to charcoal canister is broken INSIDE the loom.

Good news is the car will be ready for Fontana Auto Club Speedway Roval course this weekend. Should easily beat the cars PB record of 1:58.6. BTW my lightly track prepped SRT6 that did hundreds of laps there was a 1:58.4 car and that was the fastest I've ever been around that track so I should have a new PB for the Driver AND the Car this weekend:eyebrows: Roadracing FTMFW!

[GLHNSLHT2]

Since you have the plastic loom on your vac harness I'd suggest upgrading to Polyurethane line. Same dimensions as the factory nylon, but it bends easier, flows slightly better and won't ever hard crack. The downside is that if it touches a 180 degree cylinder head it'll melt shut right away. But if you have it protected with loom and routed correctly it should be just fine. Whiteout had some on it. You can buy 100ft rolls for less than $20. I run it on all my stuff.

Poly has a working temp to 160 degrees where nylon goes to 200 degrees working temp.


https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/specs/nitratubingpoly.pdf

https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/specs/nitratubingnylon.pdf