wanting to know more about the Mazzi 16v crankshaft

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

finally, after years of keeping a used reman'ed TII long block on stash I ripped it apart and found .. I need a crank

I knew it was undercut but hoped it was going to be usefull for a build one day

turns out there was no O ring on the oil pump pickup tube

SO , moving on I need to find a crank for my motor project

I think I saw an add about a year ago for a billet 2.5 crank ??
if anyone can point me that direction I'd like to know more

but I'd like to know more about that heavy old mazzi crank I don't see anyone useing

does it have the same 8 bolt flange for the flywheel ?
(I saw a reman listing stating a 7 bolt crank so I ask)

I presume a regular 8 valve timing pulley would still fit? (after looking at both pics of the pulleys and cranks)

are the main bearings the same size as standard 2.2 bearings?
thrust bearing same or different?

I presume standard common block seals at each end

I know the rod journals are supposedly narrower - was that 0.020 or 0.20 ??
and does the crank look like it could be cut for the wider 2.2 rod while retaining enough strength?
- is the standard rod journal diameter still the same?

(I'd rather not go the narrowed rod and bearing route as rod bearings and I often don't get along well so replacing custom narrowed bearing shells isn't a good plan

**finding "hard" rod bearings is something I've also wanted for a long time

I know it's "heavy" by comparison but I don't really care..
I WAS planing to go a little nuts lightening my steel 2.2 crank so I'm still on the same page so to say

when balancing the crank to match a set of BC rods and JE pistons - which work with the lighter TII crank I have to think there's a lot of weight left on the crank that was intended to make a otherwise ratty little 2.2 run nicely in a "high end luxury car"

weight the crank guy can add to his scrap bin full of shavings

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

( ^^ unfinished post - had issues)

I find I like the idea of the double weighted crank being more stable in the block and thus reducing stress and distortion to both the crank and block and I have a 2.5 block & program mains so it would seem to make some sence at least

yeah I know .. the TII cranks are good enough as is proven but as it turned out , I don't have one

[Reaper1]

Well, the TC could get either a standard TII forged crank found in the 8V engines, or they can get the very heavy forged Maserati 16V crank (I forgot who actually made them off the top of my head). The 16V crank weighs 53#. It uses regular sized main bearings, but the rod bearings are narrower.

Could the crank be cut to accept wider bearings? Yeah, I'd say it could be done, but finding a shop that's willing to do it...that might be a challenge.

The Masi cranks do have the standard 8-bolt flywheel pattern.

The front timing pulley for the correct year should also work (there's non-CB and CB versions of that crank, so be forewarned!).

I'm not sure "hard" bearings are exactly the way to go. You want something that can take some pounding without messing up. Hard bearings tend to seem to gaul. Of course this all depends on what the intended use for the engine is.

[tryingbe]

I'd use a n/a 2.2 crank, should be easy to find.

[ajakeski]

2.216VTurbo (AJ) is the person to ask.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?80531-Lightened-Crankshaft-advantages-disadvantages&highlight=maserati+crankshaft

[GLHNSLHT2]

The vibrations in a 2.2/2.5 aren't from the lower end. Their from the crappy valve train. A set of Comp 26995 beehives fix that and transform the engine.

[iTurbo]

The Masi 16v crank is 8-bolt. I reused the 8v flywheel and Luk TII clutch and A568 when I converted the SL.

[johnl]

I like that heavy crank, made a point of keeping it. Turned it and cut down new bearings for rods. To say electric motor smooth is an exaggeration but not by much.

[iTurbo]

Has anybody out there been able to find a source for Masi 16v rod bearings?

I personally didn't notice a huge difference in smoothness when I put the Masi 16v in (with the fully counterweighted crank). But I do have MP motor mounts and a solid PB.com bobble strut so..

[4 l-bodies]

Jeremy, Rick D. has a bearing that will work, or so he has told me. You should have seen the solution one machine shop had when I tore down a Masi engine. Two bearing shells sandwiched together to make one bearing. There is more, two of four Casar rods installed backwards. The best one was this. Couldn't locate oversize pistons, so they sleeved all 4 cylinders, so they could run standard bore Forward Motion JE Masi pistons! Then to top it off, machine shop screwed up bores anyway. Not even close to being round, and tried running .0015 piston to wall! Found the receipt in the car. Charged the customer over $7K to "rebuild" the engine. Don't believe they did anything with the cylinder head. The machine shop and mechanic shop that did the work on this TC, were solely responsible for killing that 16V TC.

[Reaper1]

Has anybody out there been able to find a source for Masi 16v rod bearings?

I personally didn't notice a huge difference in smoothness when I put the Masi 16v in (with the fully counterweighted crank). But I do have MP motor mounts and a solid PB.com bobble strut so..

As stated, Rick D. has some bearings that will work. They are EXPENSIVE!!! (I don't want to talk about it...). I do know they are a FIAT bearing shell that has been narrowed. I just don't know WHICH bearing shell. IF you can figure it out, then I'd wager that bearings are actually not a big deal.


Jeremy, Rick D. has a bearing that will work, or so he has told me. You should have seen the solution one machine shop had when I tore down a Masi engine. Two bearing shells sandwiched together to make one bearing. There is more, two of four Casar rods installed backwards. The best one was this. Couldn't locate oversize pistons, so they sleeved all 4 cylinders, so they could run standard bore Forward Motion JE Masi pistons! Then to top it off, machine shop screwed up bores anyway. Not even close to being round, and tried running .0015 piston to wall! Found the receipt in the car. Charged the customer over $7K to "rebuild" the engine. Don't believe they did anything with the cylinder head. The machine shop and mechanic shop that did the work on this TC, were solely responsible for killing that 16V TC.

WOW! That's terrible! I've heard of bearing shims, but not stacking them! How much was taken out of the bores to sleeve it? I can't believe they didn't just have custom pistons made...would have been WAY less effort and less expensive!

[4 l-bodies]

Chris,
There was nothing left of original bores. You could plainly see the OD of the sleeves in the bottom of the engine. I'm sure they were in a huge hurry and couldn't wait a few weeks for custom pistons. Mechanics and machinists screwed up the engine from top to bottom, start to finish. Like you said, even their decision making on how to repair was poor. The block was thrown away to scrap yard. They basically made shims by machining all the bearing material out of them. On a good note that horrendous repair actually never spun a bearing. Seems like a miracle of sorts IMO.
Todd

[iTurbo]

Jeremy, Rick D. has a bearing that will work, or so he has told me. You should have seen the solution one machine shop had when I tore down a Masi engine. Two bearing shells sandwiched together to make one bearing. There is more, two of four Casar rods installed backwards. The best one was this. Couldn't locate oversize pistons, so they sleeved all 4 cylinders, so they could run standard bore Forward Motion JE Masi pistons! Then to top it off, machine shop screwed up bores anyway. Not even close to being round, and tried running .0015 piston to wall! Found the receipt in the car. Charged the customer over $7K to "rebuild" the engine. Don't believe they did anything with the cylinder head. The machine shop and mechanic shop that did the work on this TC, were solely responsible for killing that 16V TC.

OMG, that sounds like a nightmare! It reminds me of when I bought my SL in January '99 and I had a local shop install a new TII long block from Dave Grove. I bought the car in State College PA, but it spun a rod bearing just short of getting it home near Chamberlain SD. Anyway, the local shop butchered a bunch of things and ever since then I have sworn off having a shop do anything aside from installing tires and alignments. There is a good shop here in Gillette (and Sturgis) that can service my blocks and such and I was lucky enough to get a few transaxles from Cliff when those were available. But I do most of the assembly myself. So far so good.

I have a nice used non-CB Masi 16v long block I got from eBay years ago....It was the first Masi 16v engine I bought. I did a careful teardown of it it and it's in remarkably good shape! Even the rod bearing look perfect, which I carefully bagged and tagged with their associated rods. I wouldn't normally, but if I ever rebuild it, I may just reuse them!

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

Many thanks .. the wealth of info is more than I'd hoped for

I suppose the only question I forgot to ask is what a double weighted common block 16V crank is worth ?

I think I'm going to be looking for one a little later in the new year
but first brakes , wheels/tires and hopefully get the chassis project underway - then axles and a clutch disc for my trans swap
(I really want to see what difference the stock log motor has with a 3:69 first gear and a 4:08 final drive )
.. then the TII swap

hopefully THIS year I'll actually drive my charger

[iTurbo]

It's entirely possibly the crankshaft won't be too hard to procure. Some guys want the 8v crankshaft; even a cast unit to save weight because they are proven to be durable anyway. Plus I would imagine that would provide easier access to bearings and aftermarket parts. I've pieced together a few TIII motors from scratch (easy) and the Masi 16v is nearly impossible to find some things for unless you buy the whole works. Just be aware of the rod bearing issue obviously.

[2.216VTurbo]

As stated, Rick D. has some bearings that will work. They are EXPENSIVE!!! (I don't want to talk about it...). I do know they are a FIAT bearing shell that has been narrowed. I just don't know WHICH bearing shell. IF you can figure it out, then I'd wager that bearings are actually not a big deal.



WOW! That's terrible! I've heard of bearing shims, but not stacking them! How much was taken out of the bores to sleeve it? I can't believe they didn't just have custom pistons made...would have been WAY less effort and less expensive!


Fiat, Renault, same difference right?:p

[Reaper1]

Fiat, Renault, same difference right?:p

It's Euro...so...YEAH! ;) In all honesty I swear it was FIAT. It might be Renault. I have the raw measurements of the bearing shells, so if someone has access to a resource that has that type of information we could certainly figure ti out. I even started researching how to re-babbit bearings! LOL

[iTurbo]

I wouldn't doubt the knowledge is out there, or maybe even an off-the-shelf rod bearing even. I was just looking at INA hydraulic lifters for certain Porsche and Mercedes applications and they appear to be a dead ringer for the TIII app. Just as an example. But it takes some research and trial and error.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

slim chance but I've just remembered a local machine shop (race) had 2 mazzi 16v motors for 600 bucks each

.. but that was way back in '93 and was to spendy at the time for me

considering I just got two ported 2.2heads for free from another shop that just closed last summer after they had sat on the shelf for almost 20 years I probably should check if they're still kicking around
considering I saved the add for my charger for three years before I even showed interest in it .. and picked it up at half the original asking price , I MIGHT have a "method " -scavenging

[Reaper1]

I wouldn't doubt the knowledge is out there, or maybe even an off-the-shelf rod bearing even. I was just looking at INA hydraulic lifters for certain Porsche and Mercedes applications and they appear to be a dead ringer for the TIII app. Just as an example. But it takes some research and trial and error.

I know exactly what you are talking about there. I think the Merc ones are said to be the "correct" ones. There were people getting sets of them a few years ago.

I tried to go to a local machine shop to brows through catalogs to try to find what I needed, but they were reluctant. Of course I don't have any kind of "connections" with shops out here, so it's hard for me to do that sort of stuff anymore. I *used* to be able to.


slim chance but I've just remembered a local machine shop (race) had 2 mazzi 16v motors for 600 bucks each

.. but that was way back in '93 and was to spendy at the time for me

considering I just got two ported 2.2heads for free from another shop that just closed last summer after they had sat on the shelf for almost 20 years I probably should check if they're still kicking around
considering I saved the add for my charger for three years before I even showed interest in it .. and picked it up at half the original asking price , I MIGHT have a "method " -scavenging

It would be insane if they still had those engines! I can probably scrounge the money for one if they do still have them!

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

looking at TC parts on ebay last night I found two listings for intercoolers (for TC)

is the TC rad /i-c set up still the standard daytona size?

the two intercoolers look like any other but one had the straight out top outlet , the other was an angled outlet like a glhs intercooler

if it's the same , then there's an angled outlet (top) style intercooler for under 100 bucks in the TC listings
I can't remember off hand how much the straight outlet one was

ah rats , I thought I'd saved the link to it .. surfing parts at 4:00 am ..
- it was a few pages into the ebay TC parts listings if anyone wants to hunt it down

[johnl]

The auto parts business has changed, especially in terms of parts interchangeability data. The expertise of the typical counterman or machine shop guy is far below what it used to be too and that is a consequence, in part of the fact that the chain stores have chased out the mom & pop stores.

The mom & pop shops used to keep a rack of catalogs that included interchangeability and many of the catalogues were out of date but still useful. Now it's all computerized and updated and the manufacturers/wholesalers see no need to share dimensional data with minimum wage clerks and shade tree mechanics who are likely to make problems/lawsuits and cut profits by finding "end arounds" of the pricing and distribution structures.

As far as the industry is concerned, an orphaned/old product line such as the Masi TC is a PITA and the customer ought to buy a newer car anyway so they're hostile or neutral toward some guy "trying to find something that will work."

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

Ontario made the auto parts counterman deal an apprenticeship program in the very late 80'0 or early 90's
I did the community collage bit of the program back in 91-2

they had the gm/ford catalogs and the chrysler micro fish machines
lol I spent a lot of "extra" time useing those machines