Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

[CSX194]

Acquired a cool piece of history today. Koffel head, adaptor and itb setup. Most of the machine work is done but I have a long road ahead of me. The intake has been re drilled to a different pattern and is very close to the exhaust bolts. I'm going to see if I can find out what the itb setup is off of to see if I can source another one just in case. This a a 445 head that was completely welded up and re machined. It had a tag on it that said "pro stock" the intake ports are slightly larger than the IMSA head the gentleman had. I'm not sure the history but it could be something that he was experimenting with. I'm going to need intake valves and the springs setup. I have yet to find a local shop I trust. I have a few build ideas that I will share after I take a few measurements. Here are some pics. Enjoy!

Jamie https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/0937c3039dc11b233ff5702044147ce9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/a408e3807598c989827c8e6d3e787b6b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/1bc96cf8ffc5af4c32e4cdd8416b4cb7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/5e210c714b6e25a9f74400a7fba51cc2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/0fabe26d50b13d1042d797ac68b2a5a3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/8d52a666faa4a1b1a6971e88d0f3c7b3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/9ca252efef2b3c6a35600782038dd8f4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/d665e23e359f32e32fe874acf78d9d00.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[CSX194]

Stock 2 piece behind the itb adaptor. And a +1 intake valve vs koffel valve https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/a2ae06d58fa575d0c37b631d1de850b7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/380301f134fe9d3a7cddee37aa48f694.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/8f0cf8eed0b237c39cbc73ed26c81734.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/5abc080b1881942d87569e28b2100bb6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/45ac0bfd44249fb4c04cfcdd519abe1b.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Wastelands Warrior]

Wild stuff!

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

man for the sake of the whole TM world you need to find a scaner table that head fits on
so you can make life sizes scans of the port surface and the deck surface

so we can all make templates to copy it

no seriously .. want .. please

I see what looks like more welding in past the valve spring seats , are the seats raised above the stock hieght ?
"we" need a close up view of both ports too - through to where the back of the valve would be

[CSX194]

That is a great idea. I hear the IMSA engines made 300hp N/A. The problem is the entire chamber and valve guide area was completely welded up solid and re-machined. I believe the valves have been moved farther apart due to the massive 1.9 intake valve. There is also some epoxy filling where the water jacket was broke into. The head bolt holes have also been sleeved. along with the weird intake bolt pattern to clear the massive ports. This puts the work involved out of reach for most people. However i have access to another head that retains the stock bolt pattern done by KOFFEL. I might be able to make a silicone mold of the ports on both of these heads. I have no idea what this is going to flow or if its going to be good for a turbo application. My plan is to put it to use someway or another either NA or boosted.

[CSX194]

I beleive it's been modified. The valves tbat were in the head are supstaintially larger than a stock g head. I have yet to take any measurements but I will soon. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/292554b8e04815d6ed71d6940f4464bd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/48092bc89fcae0e942b9f1410ff41762.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/dcb6b8b30f0007cce9282dff3a7f676d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/da87322a8e397ec86e76cad1e1c6526e.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

there was a steel or billit 2.5 crank for sale around here some few months back ..

iturbo's hilborn set up used the same three bolt intake pattern - Idono about the port size reference

I've thought for a long time welding the head and moving the intake bolts would let you do wild wild things
it's really nice to actually see it (lol and maybe I ain't so whack after all)

[cordes]

That's an insane amount of work done to those heads. Thanks for taking the time to post, Jamie.

[ajakeski]

There's nothing there to crack between the valve seats.

[2.216VTurbo]

That's a ton of hours of porting in that head and I love that it was done by hand-pre CNC days:eyebrows: Very cool:cool:. I've had a couple of Koffel pieces (early adj cam gears) and their thinking was very different than convention. In the 2.2 speed secrets book, a bunch of those pics of customs are Koffel's parts.

[acannell]

I made molds of the swirl head ports and combustion chamber very easily using some silicone, and then laser scanned them using a home DIY scanner setup..then put them into solidworks and all kinds of shenanigans were possible. This head would be awesome to scan the same way. I'd be up for helping out with that

[acannell]

https://s26.postimg.org/jq76k8xa1/untitled.jpg

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

if only we had someone who could cast new heads .. we have a pattern

forget the stock ones , just make this ...

lol and the new R BMF (really big..)

[acannell]

if only we had someone who could cast new heads .. we have a pattern

forget the stock ones , just make this ...

lol and the new R BMF (really big..)

step1: scan koffel head
step2: make porting template/guides to allow duplication by hand OR make CNC toolpaths
step3: make BMF Koffel edition to match
step4: die happy

[CSX194]

step1: scan koffel head
step2: make porting template/guides to allow duplication by hand OR make CNC toolpaths
step3: make BMF Koffel edition to match
step4: die happyI'm no airflow expert but does anyone see a down side to the super large intake port vs exhaust? Obviously a cam is probably going to have to be designed and built to take advantage of this.

I also think this is complete enough to flow as is. Anyone have a trustworthy source? I have every head casting number to send with for comparison.

Long story short a good friend of mine bought all the 4cyl stuff koffel had left. He also built him a destroked 2.0 with similar head for a turbo application. That head might be worth looking at as well. It's similar to this one though.

Acannell help would be great. I can handle the mold. Any tips you have would be appreciated though! Silicone used etc. I would love to learn the 3d program eventually but I'll just send you the molds to scan in. Would be really cool to document this to compare to stock ports! Thanks for the help that is impressive work!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[glhs875]

With the right parts (intake,cam,turbo etc.) I would bet this head has enough port area to make power to at least 8000rpm on a 2.2! I feel the cam required still could be kind of mild to make it there! I was making power to 7000rpm using a 89 T1 cam on my modified 445 head! And this head is way beyond what I was using!

[CSX194]

Johnny,

I don't think that's out of the question. Didn't Clearwater cylinder head kind if start the re pop fast burn head? I bet someone could find out who that is and get a group buy together after all the research is complete. They are not to far from me in fl.

I also have access to another head that is welded up and not machined.

I think there would be a few ways to go about this if people were willing to spend the cash!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[acannell]

Acannell help would be great. I can handle the mold. Any tips you have would be appreciated though! Silicone used etc. I would love to learn the 3d program eventually but I'll just send you the molds to scan in. Would be really cool to document this to compare to stock ports! Thanks for the help that is impressive work!


awesome!

okay so for anyone interested in the swirl head intake port and CC scans I did (I did not scan the exhaust port), a very generous forum member ( kurt ) paid to make them public and reimbursed me for the time and materials to make it happen, you can see the thread and download them here:

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?80064-782-Solidwork-Scans-amp-Parts-Catalog

Also, I made a thread documenting the process of molding and scanning, but its pics are all dead now:

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f321/f329/740761-my-attempt-3d-scan-our-head.html

I even did some machining (deshrouding) using the solidworks model of the scan.

As far as the silicone..I have to refer to my own post..heres what I said:

"The silicone I ordered was going to be 70 25 Tin Sil, which is a common series for this sort of molding. I wanted to get a good deal, so instead of spending around $36 shipped for 1 lbhttp://www.carbonfiberglass.com/70-2...b-Pint-Kit.htm (http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/70-25-Tin-Sil-RTV-Silicone-Mold-Rubber-1lb-Pint-Kit.htm) l, I went on ebay and ordered what wasn't explicitly listed as 70 25 Tin Sil, although it almost certainly is, for $40 shipped for 2.2lbs
Silicone RTV Rubber Mold Making Compound 1 Qt Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/181427187705) . That should be enough (I think) to try out all my molding ideas, exhaust and intake ports, swirl and G head, chambers."

I know the brand was "illuseffects". I messaged them on ebay to confirm what I ordered back in 2014. It worked well but I added a little metal bar in it to stiffen it up and help it not wobble around.

The laser scanning process I used was very home-brew. Cheap 3D scanners have come a longggg way since then and it might be worth it to just buy one for $100 or so then sell it when finished.

Once the scan is made, work still needs to be done in geomagic and solidworks to turn it into something that can be useful for toolpath generation or analysis, or models based on it.

[CSX194]

Sweet! I'm going to look into a scanner. If anyone has a recommendation or experience, let me know and I'll buy it. My buddy has been wanting one for our shop to measure engine accessories to help with turbo system design. I have very light knowledge in solid works and it's been 7 years but this is a good excuse to learn it! I'll probably be messaging you for help;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[masterjr33]

Johnny,

I don't think that's out of the question. Didn't Clearwater cylinder head kind if start the re pop fast burn head? I bet someone could find out who that is and get a group buy together after all the research is complete. They are not to far from me in fl.

I also have access to another head that is welded up and not machined.

I think there would be a few ways to go about this if people were willing to spend the cash!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

There were importing the chinese remake. and pretending it was amazing.

[CSX194]

There were importing the chinese remake. and pretending it was amazing.Got ya. Maybe they were just doing the final machine work or something then.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[zin]

Those ports (and chamber) look so much like a V-8 port it's not funny!

Looks a bit like they took the (correct) approach of determining what the ideal valve size would be (or be possible), what the port should be, and then just "made it so"!

I'd be very curious as to the length of those valves. I'm already clued into the solid/adjustable lash adjuster/lifter), but, especially with a port like that, the cam with the "proper" lift just doesn't fit (and have decent geometry), with the cam located where it is. I'm guessing, based on the pictures showing all the welding around the spring seats, that they may have lowered the seats to get a little more distance between the cam the the valve, and a shorter valve would be needed to take full advantage of that mod.

You can guess my next question has to do with the cam (if it's "native" to the head), such as max lift, etc...

Love that it's O-ringed, says lots of power being made, reliably...

Mike

[acannell]

csx194: when you do the scanning, its critical you make sure the mold has reference surfaces that are flat and easy to locate once the point cloud is in geomagic. For instance, the manifold gasket surface is one, if you can also grab the valve guide axis and the combustion chamber or even head gasket surface that would be great..these things are required to locate the scan in space relative to other parts of the head in a precision way once its in solidworks.

also try to avoid molding too much at once..you might need to do the ports separate from the combustion chamber, like I did. this makes it easier to scan because you can avoid undercuts. undercuts during the scan = impossible to scan, or alot more work to merge multiple scans

[CSX194]

Those ports (and chamber) look so much like a V-8 port it's not funny!

Looks a bit like they took the (correct) approach of determining what the ideal valve size would be (or be possible), what the port should be, and then just "made it so"!

I'd be very curious as to the length of those valves. I'm already clued into the solid/adjustable lash adjuster/lifter), but, especially with a port like that, the cam with the "proper" lift just doesn't fit (and have decent geometry), with the cam located where it is. I'm guessing, based on the pictures showing all the welding around the spring seats, that they may have lowered the seats to get a little more distance between the cam the the valve, and a shorter valve would be needed to take full advantage of that mod.

You can guess my next question has to do with the cam (if it's "native" to the head), such as max lift, etc...

Love that it's O-ringed, says lots of power being made, reliably...

MikeThe valves that are with it are longer than g head valves. I don't think the intake valve is correct, I only have one and it's longer than the exhaust. I think that maybe the seats are closer to the deck. The chamber is not nearly as deep. The echaust port floor has been raised nearly. 300!!

There is a crane cam In it however I'm not sure if it's from koffel. There are markings but I can only read the 1990 date code.

Also it looks like the base circle might be small which would help with proper geometry, along with the solid lifters. I have yet to try and assemble it. I'm not sure if these valves are the correct ones for this head.

[CSX194]

Here are some better port pictures for your viewing pleasure;)https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/f9ab198650e3eb97cbb5399f99a09c05.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/5debefa387177f9df608c3daa8017c75.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/8caf5c5a0869ae90862467771debfc59.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/a27e5a1ff3119e7ca61cdaf0fba90b9c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/4a9bd47ba47686f8c0d52793faf1da16.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170801/8cad8633f3f94ea854b6505330999ceb.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[cordes]

Someone out there must have run these when they were campaigned by a very well funded race team.

[tryingbe]

Someone out there must have run these when they were campaigned by a very well funded race team.

Probably, and those someone probably moved on 30 years ago.

[acannell]

This is making me crazy!

Once all the geometry is in Solidworks, you could figure out the easiest way for it to be ported or machined, and make that a reality for anyone who wants to do it

Then, I bet I could make a special BMF head flange designed to work with it, including the unusual bolt pattern

gaggggggkckkk

[cordes]

Probably, and those someone probably moved on 30 years ago.

No doubt. If we could find him, I'm sure he would be more than willing to talk about the head though.

[CSX194]

This is making me crazy!

Once all the geometry is in Solidworks, you could figure out the easiest way for it to be ported or machined, and make that a reality for anyone who wants to do it

Then, I bet I could make a special BMF head flange designed to work with it, including the unusual bolt pattern

gaggggggkckkkI'm excited but I have my worries. The exhaust floor is moved up so high that I doubt we can make it happen on another head without major welding. Although the actual dimensions of the exhaust port are not all that out of reach for a ported stock g head without welding. I wonder how much that short turn would kill flow if it was left alone.

On the intake side I bet we could figure out a scaled down version that retains this configuration and still flows well with out having to weld the inside valley of the head and fill the water jacket partially with epoxy.

I Also did some rough measuring. The valve seat is pushed way down in the chamber "I.e. closer to the deck surface". Like .250! The valve is also longer due to the super small base circle on the cam.

But none of that really matters much if If i stay with the stock roller cam configuration. Valves can be easily spec'd.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[CSX194]

No doubt. If we could find him, I'm sure he would be more than willing to talk about the head though.One of the person's that was involved with this program is around. The gentleman that had the heads knows him and can ask questions. I actually want to see if they can finish this one up for me.

This head came directly from koffel when my friend bought his remaining 4 cyl parts.

[Shadow]

I'm no airflow expert but does anyone see a down side to the super large intake port vs exhaust? Obviously a cam is probably going to have to be designed and built to take advantage of this.


The intake to exhaust port size looks good to me. Most go overboard on the exhaust, thinking they are gaining something, when 80% of the effort to make power is on the Intake side.........

[knownenemy]

This is amazing!!!!
And gives me a bit of relief about how I ported my G-head.
Incredible amount of time and work into these heads. Nice to see.
Thanks for posting.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Keito]

OP, if you want the head finished, send it back to Koffel
I drive by the shop everyday on the way to work.
http://www.b1heads.com/
If you need more info on what's done to the head, I can stop on my way home and ask him.
I've talked to Scott a few times, once about doing up a 8 valve head and another time
a friend wanted a 16 valve head done.
(Side story, he told me instead of working the 16 valve head I should contact the guy in Florida and grab one of the Masi heads he sold him..)
He's a super nice guy to talk to. A guy in our Buckeye chapter used to work there and had a head done by him.
It was insane! Too bad it's still sitting on a shelf somewhere....
Been a few years ago but I swear they were Chevy 350 valves, heavily modified, obviously.

[mopar-tech]

61235

That is not a factory casting, it is one of the Brodex castings done for "cheating" hence the cast in part number.

I had two that was obtained from Jerry Mallicoat, still have one of them.

[mopar-tech]

The valves that are with it are longer than g head valves. I don't think the intake valve is correct, I only have one and it's longer than the exhaust. I think that maybe the seats are closer to the deck. The chamber is not nearly as deep. The echaust port floor has been raised nearly. 300!!



If I remember right, the cam towers were raised so small block chevy valves and springs could be used.

Do NOT port your heads based on this cylinder head. It is a unique casting where lots of extra meat was added, ports raised, thicker deck, etc.

Gary

[CSX194]

If I remember right, the cam towers were raised so small block chevy valves and springs could be used.

Do NOT port your heads based on this cylinder head. It is a unique casting where lots of extra meat was added, ports raised, thicker deck, etc.

GaryMopar-tech, he has a brodix casting right next to where I pulled this one from. I beleive the 2 to be different. This one has had the hand welding done to it. But yes you are correct those are heavily modified pieces.

You can see all the weld porosity in the chamber and where they peened the area above the ports while welding. There are also npt plugs throughout where epoxy was injected. I also took a cam tower measurement and it didn't appear to be raised like the brodix.

[glhs875]

I'm curious to see how this head would flow vs. the 16 valve versions, both 2.2 and 2.4!

[CSX194]

OP, if you want the head finished, send it back to Koffel
I drive by the shop everyday on the way to work.
http://www.b1heads.com/
If you need more info on what's done to the head, I can stop on my way home and ask him.
I've talked to Scott a few times, once about doing up a 8 valve head and another time
a friend wanted a 16 valve head done.
(Side story, he told me instead of working the 16 valve head I should contact the guy in Florida and grab one of the Masi heads he sold him..)
He's a super nice guy to talk to. A guy in our Buckeye chapter used to work there and had a head done by him.
It was insane! Too bad it's still sitting on a shelf somewhere....
Been a few years ago but I swear they were Chevy 350 valves, heavily modified, obviously.Thanks Keito. I would love to have him finish it up. First I'm going to get the intake and exhaust manifolds figured out. If you happen to stop by his shop, any history you can get would be awesome. I'm actually thinking the itb setup might be off some other set up and if so if like to look for another one. He specifically called this the "pro stock" head.

Oh and I might happen to know where those masiheads are :p



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[mopar-tech]

Mopar-tech, he has a brodex casting right next to where I pulled this one from. I beleive the 2 to be different. This one has had the hand welding done to it. But yes you are correct those are heavily modified pieces.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The "casting number" area and some of the other details are identical to the casting I have here.

Welding is normal to get the casting where you want it to be depending on who is porting or reworking the head.

Do what you will, if people start trying to port factory casting heads to match this one bad things will probably happen.

Gary

- - - Updated - - -


I also took a cam tower measurement and it didn't appear to be raised like the brodix.

Very easy to mill the raised towers down to a stock dimension if required.

Proceed with caution.

[iTurbo]

This is making me crazy!

Once all the geometry is in Solidworks, you could figure out the easiest way for it to be ported or machined, and make that a reality for anyone who wants to do it

Then, I bet I could make a special BMF head flange designed to work with it, including the unusual bolt pattern

gaggggggkckkk

I have one of these ITB setups and I often wish you could machine an adapter plate for it. It is setup for mechanical fuel injection though, but I think it could be converted to EFI easy enough. The port spacing is the same, the port shape is the same (well, close), but the bolt pattern is not the same as the 8v head.

[CSX194]

The "casting number" area and some of the other details are identical to the casting I have here.

Welding is normal to get the casting where you want it to be depending on who is porting or reworking the head.

Do what you will, if people start trying to port factory casting heads to match this one bad things will probably happen.

Gary

- - - Updated - - -



Very easy to mill the raised towers down to a stock dimension if required.

Proceed with caution.I understand exactly where your coming from. If you read some of my comments I mention that's this setup is well out of reach for most people. The machine cost after welding would make most people cringe. Hell most can't even find a shop to align bore cam journals. I don't think most can see the heavy amount of modification involved from the pictures. The ports are not even in the same location as a stock head.

My intent was just to share pictures of a piece of history. I still want to do port molds because I want to learn why they did what they did. I also want to design and build another intake and set the itb setup aside.

IF people wanted a head such as this the only 2 avenues would be to have a new one cast, or to scale down the port size. A 3d drawing would have to be done on the inside and out of a g head and a proper port sized to fit. And that does not even address the chamber differences.

Is the side of your head pink? Aka pink head.

[CSX194]

I have one of these ITB setups and I often wish you could machine an adapter plate for it. It is setup for mechanical fuel injection though, but I think it could be converted to EFI easy enough. The port spacing is the same, the port shape is the same (well, close), but the bolt pattern is not the same as the 8v head.Iturbo that looks to be the same bolt pattern as mine. Can you share the history on this if you know. Is there any casting numbers. It looks to be almost identical to mine. I bet mine is a modified version.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Shadow]

Proceed with caution.

I would agree with this;

If you want to put the $'s into completing this head and use it, that's cool, it's a Neat piece, but anyone thing about replicating it should think twice.

The amount of welding alone is not worth the time and effort, not to mention the potential lack of longevity when you consider the effect welding has on a head like this And looking at the porosity of the welds leaves a lot in Q.

It is Interesting though, to see the Extremes that some have gone to, to try to make power out of one of these heads.

More interesting I think, that some can achieve the same result with No welding at all..........

[knownenemy]

Gary, THANK YOU for clearing up some questions I had about the head.
It had a few issues that appeared to be custom, or one-off.

Thank God I didn't just started porting. lol

Thanks again.
Have a great day!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Warren Stramer]

Do what you will, if people start trying to port factory casting heads to match this one bad things will probably happen.

Gary

Proceed with caution.

Understatement; you cannot port a production G head to the configuration shown in the Koffel head.
You will have water coming out everywhere! Also, if you do all the welding required, the entire head would need to be re-heat treated, and re-machined.
It looks like the valves have been moved over about .060 on the Koffel head. Nice piece for sure, and high RPM capable. Ive been over 9800 RPM with my "stock" head, Can only imagine what this Koffel head could do.

[glhs875]

it looks like the valves have been moved over about .060 on the koffel head. Nice piece for sure, and high rpm capable. Ive been over 9800 rpm with my "stock" head, can only imagine what this koffel head could do.

Wow!!!! Lol

[CSX194]

I would agree with this;

If you want to put the $'s into completing this head and use it, that's cool, it's a Neat piece, but anyone thing about replicating it should think twice.

The amount of welding alone is not worth the time and effort, not to mention the potential lack of longevity when you consider the effect welding has on a head like this And looking at the porosity of the welds leaves a lot in Q.

It is Interesting though, to see the Extremes that some have gone to, to try to make power out of one of these heads.

More interesting I think, that some can achieve the same result with No welding at all..........

Correct Warren, HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT!!

My intent is to finish the head, have it put on a flow bench, share the results and put it to use. I have no intent on reproducing this head or making porting templates. It would be financially out of reach to reproduce this head from a stock casting, I have stated this a few times now in this thread. i have also warned about the raised ports, valve spacing and other major differences.

I do however want to 3d model the chamber and ports. I think it would be nice piece of information to compare to a stock casting along with flow data. If my self or someone else learns something from it then i would be happy.

Shadow i cant comment on your last remark, you might be correct however i dont have any data on this head or any other one with similar characteristics for that matter. This is the number one reason i want to flow this head asap along with a stock and ported head. I really want to see how much of a gain was all this worth. I probably already can guess, as this was designed for a highly competitive team at the time. so every little bit helps.

[Warren Stramer]

I'm pleased to hear you are going to finish and use that head. I don't think anyone has yet found the absolute limits of the old 8 Valve 2.2 yet. Good on you!

[Shadow]

Correct Warren, HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT!!

My intent is to finish the head, have it put on a flow bench, share the results and put it to use. I have no intent on reproducing this head or making porting templates. It would be financially out of reach to reproduce this head from a stock casting, I have stated this a few times now in this thread. i have also warned about the raised ports, valve spacing and other major differences.

I do however want to 3d model the chamber and ports. I think it would be nice piece of information to compare to a stock casting along with flow data. If my self or someone else learns something from it then i would be happy.

Shadow I cant comment on your last remark, you might be correct however I don't have any data on this head or any other one with similar characteristics for that matter. This is the number one reason i want to flow this head asap along with a stock and ported head. I really want to see how much of a gain was all this worth. I probably already can guess, as this was designed for a highly competitive team at the time. so every little bit helps.

Awesome! Sounds like you have a Level head on your shoulders and a Good Understanding of what it is and what you want to do with it! :clap:

I think Everything your saying is Exactly what I would hope to hear from someone coming across a piece like this! You can never have enough cross-reference info and something like this, which is purposefully built to go All Out is the Perfect "measuring stick" to compare all others to.

Cool to see what the port flange measurements are And if you are able to get an accurate cross section of the intake and exhaust ports! :nod:

[glhs875]

I'm pleased to hear you are going to finish and use that head. I don't think anyone has yet found the absolute limits of the old 8 Valve 2.2 yet. Good on you!

I agree Warren!

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

I was wondering last night if it might be one of the isma cheeter heads in origin due to the possiable chevy valve length (?)

it's definately not and never intended for anything but wide open throttle and I have to wonder if maybe it was also intended to run cooler with alcohol

it's intended run time life might be kinda short too - like the 10 000 rpm 351 ford I saw 35 years ago .. with a valvetrain that was good for a total of 3 min run time
a very expensive valvetrain at that..

there may be a way to get the porting without the worry about hitting water everywhere

the old 351 nascar engines used to get a big chunk of the head cut off where the useless factory ports were
they would then add a big section of steel and cut their own ports into that

so , IF you milled a large slot/notch across the intake/exhaust mounting surface , from the very bottom edge of the exhaust ports up to the tops of the intake ports , and far enough into the head to get just past the rear row of head bolts , it might be quite possiable to seal the water jacket again without worry about welds or epoxy and almost erase the factory ports right up to the bowls under the valves

then you can cut any port you want into the piece of material that gets pounded into the slot
- and that dosen't need to follow the factory head footprint either as in other than being made to fit the slot , that piece of material could also be extended beyond the back of the head ,, and even above it to get the angles you might want

with enough planing you could even put the holes for the injectors in it

mm , maybe this is what I should do with the free "ported" g head I was given.. the one with no cam caps,
take it to the machine shop and "waste" it by cutting the slot just to see what's there

[CSX194]

I was wondering last night if it might be one of the isma cheeter heads in origin due to the possiable chevy valve length (?)

it's definately not and never intended for anything but wide open throttle and I have to wonder if maybe it was also intended to run cooler with alcohol

it's intended run time life might be kinda short too - like the 10 000 rpm 351 ford I saw 35 years ago .. with a valvetrain that was good for a total of 3 min run time
a very expensive valvetrain at that..

there may be a way to get the porting without the worry about hitting water everywhere

the old 351 nascar engines used to get a big chunk of the head cut off where the useless factory ports were
they would then add a big section of steel and cut their own ports into that

so , IF you milled a large slot/notch across the intake/exhaust mounting surface , from the very bottom edge of the exhaust ports up to the tops of the intake ports , and far enough into the head to get just past the rear row of head bolts , it might be quite possiable to seal the water jacket again without worry about welds or epoxy and almost erase the factory ports right up to the bowls under the valves

then you can cut any port you want into the piece of material that gets pounded into the slot
- and that dosen't need to follow the factory head footprint either as in other than being made to fit the slot , that piece of material could also be extended beyond the back of the head ,, and even above it to get the angles you might want

with enough planing you could even put the holes for the injectors in it

mm , maybe this is what I should do with the free "ported" g head I was given.. the one with no cam caps,
take it to the machine shop and "waste" it by cutting the slot just to see what's thereI dont know what koffel's intent of this head was. But This is most definitely a version of the IMSA head. I doubt it's designed for "30 sec" hits and just WOT. We all know there is many more aspects than WOT in road racing. And he was heavy into IMSA in the early 90s when this was probably made.

The IMSA head I saw was almost identical visually. The epoxy work is minor compared to what I've seen in other road race engines. So i think it will be fine.

While it might not last a full season of racing, I have no doubt it will be fine for what I intend to do with it.

Johnny, that is an interesting idea. I'll have to re read that a couple times to fully understand. If you have a junk head I would do as you say and post up some pics. You could be on to something!

[iTurbo]

Iturbo that looks to be the same bolt pattern as mine. Can you share the history on this if you know. Is there any casting numbers. It looks to be almost identical to mine. I bet mine is a modified version.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I got this ITB setup from an older guy in Boise that was building a 'streamliner' to go racing at Bonneville. I responded to his Craigslist ad for a Maserati 16v engine and drove over to pick it up. I was shocked and amazed when I got there though.....he had the Masi 16v engine, but it was all machined and ready to assemble with a billet 2.0L crank, 6 Arias forged pistons, 6 Cunningham rods, huge T67 turbo etc....He had some health problems and decided to sell the project. It was the ultimate turbo Mopar find of a lifetime! I talked to him for hours and toured his shop. Just awesome.

The ITB setup I have is a Hilborn part. I'm not sure how he was going to use it with the Masi 16v, but he didn't get that far in the project. Last I checked I think it was still listed on their website. I got all the books for it as well.

[johnl]

Did you buy that engine from him? The guy in Boise?

[Reaper1]

61235

That is not a factory casting, it is one of the Brodex castings done for "cheating" hence the cast in part number.

I had two that was obtained from Jerry Mallicoat, still have one of them.

Isn't this also known as a "pink head"? Doesn't Steve M. have one as well? (thought I remember him acquiring one a long time ago before he "retired").

[iTurbo]

Did you buy that engine from him? The guy in Boise?

Absolutely! I drove my brother Josh's old Buick Regal GS and loaded everything up in the trunk and in the car. It was dragging --- hardcore on the way back to Wyoming! We hit it off great and he was just giving me stuff!! I remember asking him if he had the stock turbo (IHI), and he went into his house and came back with the Garrett T67 and told me he didn't have it but gave me the T67 instead. Coolest guy ever. Just touring his shop and talking to him for hours was worth more than what I came home with.

I think his name was Dan Wiseman. He apparently had connections at Mopar to get this stuff way back in the day.

[CSX194]

Isn't this also known as a "pink head"? Doesn't Steve M. have one as well? (thought I remember him acquiring one a long time ago before he "retired"). Yes that I beleive is called the pink head. The end of it was hit with pink spray paint. Aka cheater head.
Scratch that I think the brodix and pink heads were 2 different things. Someone will know more than me.

[iTurbo]

Did you buy that engine from him? The guy in Boise?

Sorry to go off topic, but as far as the 2.0L Maserati 16v engine........I've built several 2.2L engines so far. I kind of think of them as practice runs but all of them have been kicking ---. This 2.0L Masi 16v kind of intimidates me and I want to perfect everything as far as my ability. It blows my mind how this guy was going to use a huge turbo and this engine with that ITB setup. Given enough experience with fabrication, anything is possible, but yeah it's still way above my ability. So for now, it stays on the shelf and I just look at it in wonder.

Maybe a 2.0L Maserati 16v Omni GLH is in the future. I will be sure to stash all the stock stuff in a corner in my garage though and make it totally revertible!

[zin]

One of the person's that was involved with this program is around. The gentleman that had the heads knows him and can ask questions...

It would be truly great if this gentleman would consent to "conducting" a thread here regarding the development of this head and anything else he was involved in, much like we've seen in the 2.2 turbo development thread.

Having someone with first-hand knowledge giving us the facts of what these engines want and can do, would put use (some folks in particular) light years ahead of the game.

Can you imagine taking a N/A engine that can make 300HP, then adding a turbo?!!

It would be great to know the tricks they used to keep things alive at that power level too!

Lots of info to be had...

Mike

[johnl]

Sorry to go off topic, but as far as the 2.0L Maserati 16v engine........I've built several 2.2L engines so far. I kind of think of them as practice runs but all of them have been kicking ---. This 2.0L Masi 16v kind of intimidates me and I want to perfect everything as far as my ability. It blows my mind how this guy was going to use a huge turbo and this engine with that ITB setup. Given enough experience with fabrication, anything is possible, but yeah it's still way above my ability. So for now, it stays on the shelf and I just look at it in wonder.

Maybe a 2.0L Maserati 16v Omni GLH is in the future. I will be sure to stash all the stock stuff in a corner in my garage though and make it totally revertible!

Last I looked the record at Bonneville for a mini-truck was held by a VW Rabbit trucklet and a Rampage would have to have a 2.0 and not 2.2 to run in that class.

[iTurbo]

Honest question here.....

Why try to get every ounce of HP out of the 8v head (in any form), when 16v engines are available? I'm a sucker for nostalgia probably more than anybody, but I can't imagine trying to squeeze any more than 240 WHP out of that old dilapidated 8v head. Am I wrong? Kudos to those that try but I just gotta wonder.

- - - Updated - - -


Last I looked the record at Bonneville for a mini-truck was held by a VW Rabbit trucklet and a Rampage would have to have a 2.0 and not 2.2 to run in that class.

He had a fully built custom car. It wasn't based on anything from Chrysler. And he did have a destroked 2.0L crankshaft/pistons. I have them now.

[iTurbo]

This is turning into a great thread despite me feeling bad about hijacking it with off topic stuff.

I will dig up as much information as I can regarding the ITB setup.

[thedon809]

Honest question here.....

Why try to get every ounce of HP out of the 8v head (in any form), when 16v engines are available? I'm a sucker for nostalgia probably more than anybody, but I can't imagine trying to squeeze any more than 240 WHP out of that old dilapidated 8v head. Am I wrong? Kudos to those that try but I just gotta wonder.You can get near 240whp with a stock turbo 3 bar setup with supporting mods? Why mess with these cars at all? Take all the money you have dumped on these cars and obscure parts and you could have a 1,000hp v8.

[zin]

Honest question here.....

Why try to get every ounce of HP out of the 8v head (in any form), when 16v engines are available? I'm a sucker for nostalgia probably more than anybody, but I can't imagine trying to squeeze any more than 240 WHP out of that old dilapidated 8v head. Am I wrong? Kudos to those that try but I just gotta wonder.

For me, it's kind of an engineering exercise, how how much of a racehorse can one make out of a mule?... Plus, I think a lot of us are into the "sleeper" aspect of our cars, which is made that much more impressive when one pops the hood to see a plain-Jane "Chrysler Turbo" valve cover. A Masi (or Lotus) branded valve cover leads to "oh, no wonder, it's not really a Chrysler anyway...".

Do not get me wrong, if it were just about making power, I'd be doing a 2.4L turbo swap. Much more flow out of the box, and much more aftermarket support as well as more contemporary mods being done (someone doing R&D for you!).

That being said, I've been planning a "see what you can get" cylinder head with the only real restriction on the project being that the valve cover rail would remain in the stock location... Though I've been considering adding a spacer to allow for higher cam towers (to get better geometry and higher lift cam), but that may be a bridge too far. Gotta get something good done, not perfection...

Mike

- - - Updated - - -


I will dig up as much information as I can regarding the ITB setup.
I seem to recall that there was an adapter/sub-plate that went with those as a kit, one side matched the head, the other the ITB set-up. Or I might just be imagining it!

Mike

[iTurbo]

Ok guys, don't get me wrong. I love these cars and the 2.2/2.5 to death. Me personally, I have a very hard time finding fabrication work! And I am always very thankful for Group Buys and such. So 16v has been the way for me. I do have an awesome SOHC 8v head on my old Omni GLH that my brother now owns. It was built by Todd and it hauls ---. It is just as fast now with the old 'log' TI as it was with the previous setup which was a 2.5L "TII" with a gigantic Isuzu NPR intercooler and 17 psi. So great props to Todd for selling me that because it is awesome.

I have told my older brother I could make something *really* badass for him but he is more than happy with the power! Be it a Spearco intercooler on the old TI, a 16v conversion etc....but he loves it. He's driving to Casper WY tomorrow with it actually.

[CSX194]

For me, it's kind of an engineering exercise, how how much of a racehorse can one make out of a mule?... Plus, I think a lot of us are into the "sleeper" aspect of our cars, which is made that much more impressive when one pops the hood to see a plain-Jane "Chrysler Turbo" valve cover. A Masi (or Lotus) branded valve cover leads to "oh, no wonder, it's not really a Chrysler anyway...".

Do not get me wrong, if it were just about making power, I'd be doing a 2.4L turbo swap. Much more flow out of the box, and much more aftermarket support as well as more contemporary mods being done (someone doing R&D for you!).

That being said, I've been planning a "see what you can get" cylinder head with the only real restriction on the project being that the valve cover rail would remain in the stock location... Though I've been considering adding a spacer to allow for higher cam towers (to get better geometry and higher lift cam), but that may be a bridge too far. Gotta get something good done, not perfection...

Mike

- - - Updated - - -


I seem to recall that there was an adapter/sub-plate that went with those as a kit, one side matched the head, the other the ITB set-up. Or I might just be imagining it!

MikeYou hit the nail on the head. It's an engineering project so to speak, and I enjoy unique ones at that.

The adaptor plate can be seen in my picture's. It kicks up the itb's at an angle to clear the exhaust and firewall.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[iTurbo]

I would be VERY interested in seeing the adapter plate! I can see how if it was angled upwards to clear the radiator/fan it would be much better.

[Shadow]

For me it's the Challenge, along with the shear Coolness of what CS did with these cars to begin with.

Making things any easier just would be the same............

[CSX194]

It would be truly great if this gentleman would consent to "conducting" a thread here regarding the development of this head and anything else he was involved in, much like we've seen in the 2.2 turbo development thread.

Having someone with first-hand knowledge giving us the facts of what these engines want and can do, would put use (some folks in particular) light years ahead of the game.

Can you imagine taking a N/A engine that can make 300HP, then adding a turbo?!!

It would be great to know the tricks they used to keep things alive at that power level too!

Lots of info to be had...

MikeMike that is a great idea. When I contact him I'll find out if he's interested in that. Or maybe we can start a thread on questions to ask him, for an interview of sorts? I'd love to hear the history!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[iTurbo]

I do respect the challenge. Some have said nitrous or 16v is somehow cheating. I don't agree with that, but making big power with the 8v SOHC is something to be respected.

[iTurbo]

Here's some food for thought:

It seems to me the guys that want to make big power with the 8v SOHC head are basically screwed.You basically have to do it all yourself. Sure you can get 'ported' heads from TU or FWDP, but how much can you actually trust them? If I could pay Todd to make me a badass cylinder head I would, but I'm the type that would only trust him to do it.

Years ago I was looking into M squared Racing (Matt Green) to build a top end, but they disappeared. To me it seems like the only way to build a badass 8v is if you have connections or you can do it yourself. For the laymen like me, it is no longer an option. We are stuck with stock heads.

[CSX194]

Good point. I respect the 16v stuff. It is just a better design. I've always had weird desire to make the 8v stuff work. I guess when you build and work on higher horsepower turbo cars on a regular basis i want something challenging. I have learned a great deal of universal knowledge from these 8v .motors and still love to mess with them.

One of my customers has a twin turbo viper, an 800hp Dakota that I built and a 2.5 turbo caravan that I built. Guess what he loves the most. The caravan and Dakota. Both underdogs in the head flow department.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/16dec8bd27b218a9dcc273b7cdd8ede3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/e557df2a337d2681a43fef523df79b54.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/b85dbd47037c2a5429940aa80407700c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/bb58b6570de819c8bddfbbfebb65cf40.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[glhs875]

One thing I would like to see made for the 8V head is roller followers with larger diameter rollers from that of a 8V 4.6 Ford V8. I forget the diameter of these rollers (been awhile) but they will increase the duration using the same stock camshaft by 9 deg. And if I remember right, if the larger roller were to be moved towards the lifter (increasing rocker ratio) to keep the same valve closing point as a stock rocker, the lift of a .430 cam would be increased to like .490! Then a person could play with cam timing for a desired power band! I made a mock up rocker to get measurements!

[thedon809]

I think the biggest thing that holds most 8 valvers back is skipping the basics, not the head itself.

[iTurbo]

Not knocking FWDP or TU, because I have a good relationship with both and I would like to keep it that way. But the cylinder head from Todd has most definitely proven itself. I totally admit I missed out on having a head built by Steve (BadFastGTC). Last I heard he was taking a break. I totally understand that.

My point is that 16v conversions are becoming more popular because you can just bolt them on. I did it on my Shelby Lancer. It was expensive, but it was possible. Having a badass 8v SOHC head is not so easy these days and sometimes having cash on hand makes no difference if you can't find a reputable source. I'm not advocating 16v conversion but it does seem more possible in this day.

The Masi is crazy rare, but with the TIII all you have to do is ask and pretty much everything is available.

[iTurbo]

Good point. I respect the 16v stuff. It is just a better design. I've always had weird desire to make the 8v stuff work. I guess when you build and work on higher horsepower turbo cars on a regular basis i want something challenging. I have learned a great deal of universal knowledge from these 8v .motors and still love to mess with them.

One of my customers has a twin turbo viper, an 800hp Dakota that I built and a 2.5 turbo caravan that I built. Guess what he loves the most. The caravan and Dakota. Both underdogs in the head flow department.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/16dec8bd27b218a9dcc273b7cdd8ede3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/e557df2a337d2681a43fef523df79b54.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/b85dbd47037c2a5429940aa80407700c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170803/bb58b6570de819c8bddfbbfebb65cf40.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Loving that Dakota!

[83scamp]

Sorry to go off topic, but as far as the 2.0L Maserati 16v engine........I've built several 2.2L engines so far. I kind of think of them as practice runs but all of them have been kicking ---. This 2.0L Masi 16v kind of intimidates me and I want to perfect everything as far as my ability. It blows my mind how this guy was going to use a huge turbo and this engine with that ITB setup. Given enough experience with fabrication, anything is possible, but yeah it's still way above my ability. So for now, it stays on the shelf and I just look at it in wonder.

Maybe a 2.0L Maserati 16v Omni GLH is in the future. I will be sure to stash all the stock stuff in a corner in my garage though and make it totally revertible!

You know, Shelby had a 2.0 with a Hans Hermann head running around the skunk works in a GLH for a while. Twin webers on it. It was a screamer...

[BadAssPerformance]

Jamie, thanks for sharing the pictures, good stuff! Any idea how high of compression ratio it was set up for?

I've been in touch with Koffel and have a couple blanks :eyebrows:

61239

[BadAssPerformance]

Here's some food for thought:

It seems to me the guys that want to make big power with the 8v SOHC head are basically screwed.You basically have to do it all yourself. Sure you can get 'ported' heads from TU or FWDP, but how much can you actually trust them? If I could pay Todd to make me a badass cylinder head I would, but I'm the type that would only trust him to do it.

Years ago I was looking into M squared Racing (Matt Green) to build a top end, but they disappeared. To me it seems like the only way to build a badass 8v is if you have connections or you can do it yourself. For the laymen like me, it is no longer an option. We are stuck with stock heads.

"how much can you trust them?" Really? WTF? Ya know, it's comments like this that make our vendors care less to support our community.

I would not question the integrity of our vendors as many have had good success running their products. For supporting such a niche community, our vendors do pretty well to support as best they can. Especially difficult for them to support when so many like to DIY then others who cannot (or dont care to) DIY lose out.

...PLEASE, let's keep this thread on topic. If anyone has any questions about a vendor (or anyone for that matter) please contact them directly to work it out.

As far as stock heads, it depends on the level of power wanted, our stock 8v heads have made it pretty far.

[Shadow]

I think the biggest thing that holds most 8 valvers back is skipping the basics, not the head itself.

Nailed it! :amen:

[knownenemy]

Nailed it! :amen:Absolutely!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[iTurbo]

"how much can you trust them?" Really? WTF? Ya know, it's comments like this that make our vendors care less to support our community.

I would not question the integrity of our vendors as many have had good success running their products. For supporting such a niche community, our vendors do pretty well to support as best they can. Especially difficult for them to support when so many like to DIY then others who cannot (or dont care to) DIY lose out.

...PLEASE, let's keep this thread on topic. If anyone has any questions about a vendor (or anyone for that matter) please contact them directly to work it out.

As far as stock heads, it depends on the level of power wanted, our stock 8v heads have made it pretty far.

I have spent many many thousands of dollars with the vendors. Probably far more than their average customer. Do I trust them, yeah!

Certain things I prefer to buy from certain sources. Cylinder heads and transaxles are at the top of that list. The rest I will build myself. I think most everybody has their preference and it's just normal and business as usual. My post wasn't meant as an attack on the vendors at all and shouldn't be seen as such.

[WLKivett]

Subscribe

[BadAssPerformance]

My post wasn't meant as an attack on the vendors at all and shouldn't be seen as such.

Well, maybe it wasn't too clear, at least to me, sorry if I miss-read it, sometimes the written word is interpreted differently than it is meant to be.

[Shadow]

Well, maybe it wasn't too clear, at least to me, sorry if I miss-read it, sometimes the written word is interpreted differently than it is meant to be.

Hey don't feel too bad there JT, I was Almost going to reply myself, but you replied first and that gave me time to reread and think about what iTurbo was saying.

I came up with;

Not saying he doesn't trust our vendors when it comes to what they Know and sell.

Saying that he doesn't trust an "off the shelf" piece to do something "out of the norm" like work on an 8v capable of 600+WHP and 8000RPM. Not because our vendors are not Trustworthy, but simply because the part they stock and deal with, may not be as well suited for such an Individual endeavor.

So I think he was talking about whether he could trust the piece itself, and it's ability to "get the job done" vs a "one off" purposefully built piece from an experienced person who deals with custom stuff like that.

But like you said, the net and the written word is easily misinterpreted, maybe I got it completely wrong..........

[iTurbo]

You guys know I'm not all that into building really big HP machines, and I'm more than happy to leave that to you guys. I think I just got to typing too fast and it came out wrong. Sometimes that happens with text on a screen versus talking to somebody in real life.

It's probably obvious to most I'm into the 16v thing, especially the old school stuff. But I do have one of those ITB setups that this thread is about and I'll only talk about that now. Like many things, it sits on the shelf while I look at in in wonder.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

ditto .. what shadow said ^ (I was thinking the same)

[GLHS60]

Very cool stuff!!

I notice the lash adjusters are off set, most likely to align with the repositioned valves.

One curious thing is the cam cap studs, the 2.2 book claimed they were inferior to bolts.

Thanks
Randy

[zin]

All this history/pictures are super interesting, I love it! Always enjoy the behind-the-scenes info...

BUT. What I'd REALLY like to know about is the actual dimensional specs, such as how much exactly was the cam raised? (and why that amount, if that's knowable), how long were the valves? Are there numbers for the port volume, cam specs, etc?

I ask because I've always been a little frustrated with the limitations of the "stock" configuration valve train. The flow numbers of even a stock head show it's still going at .500" lift, but that's not really practical with the stock geometry, which is obvious when we see the changes serious race teams made to get the most out of these engines.

Sorry if I'm "polluting" this thread, it just seems like a lot of the right eyeballs will see my inquiry here...

I'd love to see a "IMSA Tech" (or whatever we'd care to call it) thread that collected as much of the available "all out" tips/tricks used to not only make these engines make more HP, but LIVE under some pretty harsh conditions. Yea, not everything is going to translate to the "street", but the theory behind it should and will only make the breed stronger.

One question that fits is, what did the teams do about the distributor? Seems like the HEP/shutter wheel would be a huge liability in an endurance race, what was their solution? I can guess, but I'd love to know what worked then, and maybe we can improve upon it...

Anyway, what say you?...

Mike

[Shadow]

All this history/pictures are super interesting, I love it! Always enjoy the behind-the-scenes info...

BUT. What I'd REALLY like to know about is the actual dimensional specs, such as how much exactly was the cam raised? (and why that amount, if that's knowable), how long were the valves? Are there numbers for the port volume, cam specs, etc?

I ask because I've always been a little frustrated with the limitations of the "stock" configuration valve train. The flow numbers of even a stock head show it's still going at .500" lift, but that's not really practical with the stock geometry, which is obvious when we see the changes serious race teams made to get the most out of these engines.

Sorry if I'm "polluting" this thread, it just seems like a lot of the right eyeballs will see my inquiry here...

I'd love to see a "IMSA Tech" (or whatever we'd care to call it) thread that collected as much of the available "all out" tips/tricks used to not only make these engines make more HP, but LIVE under some pretty harsh conditions. Yea, not everything is going to translate to the "street", but the theory behind it should and will only make the breed stronger.

One question that fits is, what did the teams do about the distributor? Seems like the HEP/shutter wheel would be a huge liability in an endurance race, what was their solution? I can guess, but I'd love to know what worked then, and maybe we can improve upon it...

Anyway, what say you?...

Mike

Gotta remember, that was years ago when people were applying what they knew then about larger displacement mtrs and not so much known about the Dynamics of turbocharging. We have grown by Leaps and Bounds since then and there is no reason to go to those extremes any more for even .600+ lift and 800WHP ;)

It can all be achieved with no welding on head and with cam in current location............

[zin]

True, one can build a 1000+HP engine from a catalog these days. BUT, there is no denying that what they did worked, and worked with essentially what we have to work with today, hence my interest in the particulars.

Also, these were NA engines IIRC, so making the power that they did is even more impressive.

Mike

[Shadow]

True, one can build a 1000+HP engine from a catalog these days. BUT, there is no denying that what they did worked, and worked with essentially what we have to work with today, hence my interest in the particulars.

Also, these were NA engines IIRC, so making the power that they did is even more impressive.

Mike

I'm not sure were you got this from, but surprised it would be in response to what I posted?

No, you can't just buy a 1000+HP 8v from a catalog, not even in these days. Yes, what they did worked, and it can work today with out all that fuss, that was all I was saying.

There are 8v heads today, running .600+ lift cams with cam is stock location and no welding or moving around of any of the "hard parts". So not only can it be done today with what we have to work with, it can be done without all the Major fabrication that they went through because that was their "Mind Frame" back then ;)

IF I had nothing but time on my hands, and money to burn, I could put together a "dream Team" and turn out an 800-1000WHP 10,000RPM turning Monster 8v 2.2 right now.

Not worth talking about, because I have neither, so I will continue to take the Turtle approach and see where it goes! :p

[Warren Stramer]

Hey Rob, How much do you think it would cost?:eyebrows:

[thedon809]

I think he meant one can build a 1000hp engine from a catalog as in a generic v8.

[rdnoel86]

I haven't read every word of this thread, but I will throw out a couple small things. I have talked to Koffel multiple times about my car and the engines they built for it. They rarely do anything 4 cylinder anymore, but are willing to tackle projects, but I believe the guys that did some of their 2.2 stuff are now at their shop in Ohio. Only one guy in the Haggerty shop even recognized my car. It was a long time ago. The original motors for my SS/EC had those type heads on them, then they switched to a Brodix casting for the newer(at the time ) stuff. I haven't seen the Brodix head away from the engine....But Reeves has one and the original owner of my car still has one.

I thought seriously about getting an original engine and running N/A, but with the rules now, I can legally run a 2.4. Not sure it would be worth it to build up an oldie again....great find, and have fun with it.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

Hey Rob, How much do you think it would cost?:eyebrows:

I seem to recall there's a 925hp r/t head charger out there somewhere
that might be a good place to start

[Shadow]

Hey Rob, How much do you think it would cost?:eyebrows:

Well that would solely depend on what one's time is worth. ;)

If you don't count the Dream Teams time as in $ figures, then I'm a say about 40,000.00 on the high end. :bolt:

If you count $ value for time along with actual cost out of pocket, well that would be in the Millions!!!!!!!!:eyebrows:

[zin]

Ok... obviously I didn't say one could buy a 1000 hp 8V, I said engine.

Sorry for wanting to advance the breed, if shutting down conversation was the goal, than mission accomplished.

PEACE OUT.

[Shadow]

Ok... obviously I didn't say one could buy a 1000 hp 8V, I said engine.

Sorry for wanting to advance the breed, if shutting down conversation was the goal, than mission accomplished.

PEACE OUT.

Sorry you got bent out of shape over that, we are obviously talking about 8v mtrs because that's what the head in Q bolts up to.

So you were talking about some other mtrs.....fine.

So you want to continue a conversation about a head that was made to work before anyone knew anything about these engines.....fine.

I'm not stopping you from doing either of those, and If you feel I am, man you gotta have a little more confidence in yourself ;)

All I did was answer Your Question. If you don't like my answer I would encourage you to disregard it and continue on until you hopefully find an answer that appeases you.....no?

[83scamp]

rdnoel86 brought up a good point to remember: Those IMSA heads were done for an N/A application. Way back then, you couldn't run a turbo in IMSA(I don't know the rules now). They were pushing for 200-250+ hp with a Holley 500 cfm 2 barrel, and pushing 8000 rpm. In the middle of all of this development work, IMSA changed the rules, and the 2.2 became non-competitive, so Chrysler, Koffel, and the rest of them dropped the program. I'm not sure where the ITB setup came into play. Maybe it was a development deal, before the rules changed? I know all the pictures I've seen of the IMSA cars in race trim had Holley's on them.

I know there were guys out there pushing close to 300 hp N/A with these motors and radical heads. But that is close to the limit(IMHO).

I don't doubt what Shadow is saying, a propperly developed 8V turbo motor could produce close to 1000 hp, if money were no object...

But we're all T-M guys, and money is an object...;)

[Shadow]

rdnoel86 brought up a good point to remember: Those IMSA heads were done for an N/A application. Way back then, you couldn't run a turbo in IMSA(I don't know the rules now). They were pushing for 200-250+ hp with a Holley 500 cfm 2 barrel, and pushing 8000 rpm. In the middle of all of this development work, IMSA changed the rules, and the 2.2 became non-competitive, so Chrysler, Koffel, and the rest of them dropped the program. I'm not sure where the ITB setup came into play. Maybe it was a development deal, before the rules changed? I know all the pictures I've seen of the IMSA cars in race trim had Holley's on them.

I know there were guys out there pushing close to 300 hp N/A with these motors and radical heads. But that is close to the limit(IMHO).

I don't doubt what Shadow is saying, a propperly developed 8V turbo motor could produce close to 1000 hp, if money were no object...

But we're all T-M guys, and money is an object...;)

And that was my point;

It's all fine and good to Dream of what you could or couldn't do, but reality paints a much different picture.

What they did and why they did it back then, and the funding they had vs someone attempting to replicate it on their own today = lesson in futility.

1. The machining and welding alone would exceed what you could build a comparable stock cam journal location head for today.

2. Very High percentage chance that after all the welding and moving around that it's not even done right.

3. you are going to be in a world of hurt trying to make a head with that much welding and modding live for any sig amount of time without issues.

4. You can build a comparable (maybe even Better) flowing head from one of our stock castings with Zero welding. Only Proper flow testing would tell, or real world BtB testing.

Look at all of the individuals that spent months building hack headers over the years, just to throw them away and put on a ported stocker and go Faster! I would never tell someone Not to do something if the sole reason is "just because they want to give it a try", but I will try to throw out a distant early warning of what the outcome will likely be IF I have the experience to do so.

It's unfortunate that the internet is like this, so easy to get bent out of shape over a simple conversation and someone's opinion. How is it that we so simply forget that, that's all it is, just someone else's opinion.

Don't like it?

Dismiss and try again..........(although, I would rather the person remain engaged and Press their own view. Unfortunately, their own argument is usually too weak and this is what the Real issue often is......)

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

lol
even without welding and modding those blank isma castings would be hard on the bank roll just getting them to a "finished" state

though I'm sold at the point of raised port roof / long valve , knowing what it does for a big block dodge (aka indy or long valve stage 6 heads - make a stock bb head a waste of time)

what I'd like to know about this head(s) is why they say there were issues with the stock castings pushing the combustion chambers up with 250 -300 hp (?)

was this due to a high compression ratio and prolonged run times when at a high operating temperature?

what exactly did they modify for this in the isma heads?
I noted the small rectangular hole where our heads have the large crescent shaped passage in front of the combustion chambers

.. and why if they had this issue don't we see it occurring in our motors today which must have at least an equal cylinder pressure with boost maybe even more with a lot of boost ?

having had a head fixed when the material between the chambers was burned away I also wonder if the same drill / pound in aluminum dowell, drill again pound in another dowell method might be used to modify the combustion chambers into the "figure 8" shape we see here , without welding anything

granted you might lose some water jacket above the combustion chamber but this also might provide more support for the combustion chambers too

[Reaper1]

Dodge also only ran the 8V head for a few seasons. They eventually ended up using the Maserati 16V head.

[2.216VTurbo]

Dodge also only ran the 8V head for a few seasons. They eventually ended up using the Maserati 16V head.


At over 9000 RPM's:eyebrows:

[Force Fed Mopar]

Dodge also only ran the 8V head for a few seasons. They eventually ended up using the Maserati 16V head.


At over 9000 RPM's:eyebrows:

Please excuse me while I drool on myself...lol

[thedon809]

I remember a while back a guy running a neon 2.0 dohc making over 300whp n/a revving over 10,000rpm. I think it was deep in the 12's.

[turbovanman²]

Hey Rob, How much do you think it would cost?:eyebrows:

Well you should know, you're pretty close, :hail::bolt::rockon::partywoot: :nod: