A BMF intake for TIII's

[acannell]

For anyone that doesn't know, I make the BMF intake for the 2.2/2.5 8V. Its a big plenum, short/fat runner aluminum intake that sells for $572 shipped, fully welded.

I would also like to make something similar for the TIII. But what the BMF has taught me is that the design process for an intake manifold like this takes months of full time work. There is just no way I can do it at anywhere near the same price, and I would need alot of orders.

But I don't know anything about the TIII's or what you guys would be happy to pay, and how many of you there would be.

Basically, since the design would be from scratch, we'd start the discussion of what your "dream" intake would be, and work our way back to what I could produce at what price. But ball park, its going to be more like $900 each fully welded. Maybe less but I dont want to get anyones hopes up.And I would need a couple dozen orders. Does that sound realistic or is it a showstopper?

Heres specs and info on the BMF----> http://www.exoticelectron.com/bmf_intake.html

Remember! I want to do this. So I would try and find a way to make everyones needs meet up here, including mine. Price is just one piece of that.


http://www.exoticelectron.com/bmf_intake_full.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/tlvwide61/BMF_intake_unwelded_kit.jpg
http://www.exoticelectron.com/bmfi_exploded_view.jpg

[Wastelands Warrior]

I'm no expert TIII guy, but from what I've seen is that most of the "heavy hitters" already have custom intake manifolds, and the TIII is a very small part of the turbo Mopar world. I'd love to be able to tell folks that I have a "BMF" under my hood but I don't think you are going to find the numbers and price point to bring it to reality. But I know you'd make a quality piece if you were to make it!

[acannell]

I'm no expert TIII guy, but from what I've seen is that most of the "heavy hitters" already have custom intake manifolds, and the TIII is a very small part of the turbo Mopar world. I'd love to be able to tell folks that I have a "BMF" under my hood but I don't think you are going to find the numbers and price point to bring it to reality. But I know you'd make a quality piece if you were to make it!

I would imagine they do, but then again you could say the same thing about the 8V world. I might be able to offer something in the design that goes to the next level or allows some kind of other sort of benefit, you never know. Also the price might be alot less than I put, it really depends on alot of factors and I dont know much about the TIII.

Also since the TIII is special the intake could get its own name too.

[acannell]

How similar would a TIII intake be to an 8V intake? I mean generally. Like is it basically the same thing just changing the lengths/port shapes, etc..? I am assuming absolute worst case where basically nothing I learned from the BMF design process or manufacturing would apply. But really thats probably not true right.

[karlak]

You have a lot more room to work with. I would think that it would be easier to design. Lonewolf Performance ( guess they are still open ) makes a manifold but I never priced one.

[Xtrempickup]

RDI performance made/sold a huge plenum short runner intake many years ago

[lengel]

I really don't see you selling enough of these to make it worth your while, but I may be wrong I often am. I made four TIII intakes a few years ago, had trouble selling those for $800 and that even included the -10 fuel rail. Now the low quantity didn't really didn't matter to me, since the reason for making them was to make one for my car, so I really only sold three of them.

2 major issues I ran into are. It will be hard to machine a TIII intake efficiently and still retain the factory A/C compressor. My car is more of a drag car so this did consern me, and maybe that had some effect on the low interest when I made them. 2nd issue is a very short runner length due to the plenum hitting the hood. You may be able to overcome this by making a different shaped plenum, or smaller diameter plenum simaller to the Lonewolf intake. L body's are the tightest, so if you can fit it in a L body it should fit in anything else.

Good luck with the project
Adam

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[acannell]

I really don't see you selling enough of these to make it worth your while, but I may be wrong I often am. I made four TIII intakes a few years ago, had trouble selling those for $800 and that even included the -10 fuel rail. Now the low quantity didn't really didn't matter to me, since the reason for making them was to make one for my car, so I really only sold three of them.

2 major issues I ran into are. It will be hard to machine a TIII intake efficiently and still retain the factory A/C compressor. My car is more of a drag car so this did consern me, and maybe that had some effect on the low interest when I made them. 2nd issue is a very short runner length due to the plenum hitting the hood. You may be able to overcome this by making a different shaped plenum, or smaller diameter plenum simaller to the Lonewolf intake. L body's are the tightest, so if you can fit it in a L body it should fit in anything else.

Good luck with the project
Adam

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Yay Lengel finally posted in one of my threads!!

Ya I figured it was a long shot with these, I keep getting told the TIII crowd wants things but then nobody shows up.

Also I forgot about the Lonewolf / RDI intakes..looks like this has already been done then..

[iTurbo]

I would certainly buy one. I have a couple friends in town with high HP TIII builds and I will tell them about this thread.

If I got one, I'd want L-body compatibility and also the option of having the throttle body on the passenger side. I live in WY so I could care less about AC.

[acannell]

I would certainly buy one. I have a couple friends in town with high HP TIII builds and I will tell them about this thread.

If I got one, I'd want L-body compatibility and also the option of having the throttle body on the passenger side. I live in WY so I could care less about AC.

Excellent!! (rubs hands together and laughs maniacally)

Lets begin the dream list...

(default things first)
-big plenum
-short fat runners
-big throttle body compatibility out-of-box (if applicable)
-near stock fitment with minimal if any fab work needed to install

note that I'm not saying people on the list below want an intake, just trying to keep track of how many people want what specs or think what specs are needed

1. L-body fitment (lengel, iTurbo)
2. throttle on passenger side (iTurbo)
3. attention to runners not being too short (lengel)
4. compatibility with keeping A/C compressor (lengel)
5. price somewhere between $572 and $900 shipped..TBD (acannell)
6. a couple dozen orders, depends on many factors though (acannell)

should probably flesh out what the performance specs need to be ...after all the point of this is to make something that has some major potential and/or performance improvement. So plenum size, runner size, throttle size etc..etc..

[karlak]

You can add me to the very interested list.

[acannell]

You can add me to the very interested list.

cool, remember to chime in with ideas/opinions etc..this is a crowd designed item..im just the machinist

[Force Fed Mopar]

Needs to support 7k rpm on a 2.5 liter TIII :evil: That would probably make me interested in one for my Lebaron ... Keeping the AC compressor would be something I want though.

[acannell]

Needs to support 7k rpm on a 2.5 liter TIII :evil: That would probably make me interested in one for my Lebaron ... Keeping the AC compressor would be something I want though.

Would the 7k rpm requirement make overall design roughly bigger than the 8V BMF? ballpark?

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Ummmmmmmmmmmm...probably should have asked this first

If you were to just take the 8V BMF and try to make it work on the TIII..generally, what would need to change? This would be the cheapest way..for me to make adjustments to the 8V design versus starting over. Thats assuming the adjustments are not basically changing the whole thing.

Of course the head flanges would change..but if its a matter of just a different port, bolt patten, and angle, but I can keep the same "body plan"..thats a big win for keeping the price down

[Force Fed Mopar]

Would the 7k rpm requirement make overall design roughly bigger than the 8V BMF? ballpark?

No idea lol, haven't done any calcs. Probably not by much though.

[acannell]

No idea lol, haven't done any calcs. Probably not by much though.

Cool thanks..did you see the 2nd question though? I posted them back 2 back

[Force Fed Mopar]

Cool thanks..did you see the 2nd question though? I posted them back 2 back

No I didn't. I think the runners will need to be oval instead of round due to the port design, and also the angle off the head will be different. Might be able to use the same plenum though with some tweaks. However, I think making one from scratch will be easier and faster than trying to tweak the 8v stuff to work.

[karlak]

Do you have a TIII head and intake to work off of?

[acannell]

No I didn't. I think the runners will need to be oval instead of round due to the port design, and also the angle off the head will be different. Might be able to use the same plenum though with some tweaks. However, I think making one from scratch will be easier and faster than trying to tweak the 8v stuff to work.

Yeah probably, the way the models are designed in solidworks, the only way I can change them is to add material then remove it, so it would be a giant mess. But I think I'll be able to copy the way I did things..as far as generally how I assembled everything in CAD and how the part geometries were determined.

[acannell]

Do you have a TIII head and intake to work off of?

I dont but if this got to the point where design time had arrived, I'd acquire myself the needed parts, maybe even a whole thrashed L-body with a broken head or what not. Then when the first prototype parts were ready I'd send them out to a ready willing and able TIII / Lbody owner to test fit.

Question: Is the TIII block geometrically the same (externally) as the 2.5CB and located in the same place in the engine compartment? I.e. head gasket surface, head bolting locations, etc.. because my CAD model of the engine compartment would be directly usable as is which would be nice. I would just have to model the TIII head and plop it in.

Also any suggestions on good, clear pics of a stock TIII engine in an L-body from multiple angles? With the A/C compressor plzzzz

[lengel]

Here is the thread from when I was making them. Maybe you'll​ find something useful.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46668

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[GLHNSLHT2]

I bet the oval runner material from Rossmachineracing.com is pretty damn close.

[acannell]

Here is the thread from when I was making them. Maybe you'll​ find something useful.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46668

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Wow...:clap: thats some very fine work there. I am surprised I did not see this before. Why didn't you make a full 8V intake? The making of the head flange wouldn't seem to be much different as far as difficulty level for modeling/machining.

Ya I see what you mean by short runners. Did I imagine it or in a few pictures/posts before the welded pic there was what looked like very short runner extensions, which were not in the welded one?


http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/bethany017/Picture1537.jpg

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Wow...:clap: thats some very fine work there. I am surprised I did not see this before. Why didn't you make a full 8V intake? The making of the head flange wouldn't seem to be much different as far as difficulty level for modeling/machining.

Ya I see what you mean by short runners. Did I imagine it or in a few pictures/posts before the welded pic there was what looked like very short runner extensions, which were not in the welded one?


http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/bethany017/Picture1537.jpg

I cant edit my post for some reason..heres the welded one which seems like the runner extension is not there? Or am I just not seeing the weld. Or maybe I should not be so lazy and just read the thread instead of just looking at all the juicy pics.

[lengel]

Wow...:clap: thats some very fine work there. I am surprised I did not see this before. Why didn't you make a full 8V intake? The making of the head flange wouldn't seem to be much different as far as difficulty level for modeling/machining.

Ya I see what you mean by short runners. Did I imagine it or in a few pictures/posts before the welded pic there was what looked like very short runner extensions, which were not in the welded one?


http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/bethany017/Picture1537.jpg

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I cant edit my post for some reason..heres the welded one which seems like the runner extension is not there? Or am I just not seeing the weld. Or maybe I should not be so lazy and just read the thread instead of just looking at all the juicy pics.
The pic you posted with the "extensions" was the intake for my car ( a spirit r/t at that time) the welded intake you are referring to is Carroll Roberts intake. He has a TIII omni, and that required a even shorter runner. His intake didn't even have a extension piece, the head flange was welded directly to the plenum flange, and so is mine now😉

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[iTurbo]

I told two of my local friends about this potential Group Buy. One is interested, the other said he likes the look of the stock intake manifold and knows that it's capable of 500+ WHP so he declined.

I'm still interested but I thought it would help your evaluation of the project.

[acannell]

I told two of my local friends about this potential Group Buy. One is interested, the other said he likes the look of the stock intake manifold and knows that it's capable of 500+ WHP so he declined.

I'm still interested but I thought it would help your evaluation of the project.

Ya it does, thank you. Is that true about the stock intake?

[Lotashelbys]

Ya it does, thank you. Is that true about the stock intake?I made just over 500 whp with an untouched intake and stock TB.

[acannell]

I made just over 500 whp with an untouched intake and stock TB.

So then this really isn't needed is it

[Lotashelbys]

So then this really isn't needed is it
Well it would be a cool upgrade as it took alot of boost to get there with the stock one.

[Pat]

A better than stock intake is a huge advantage over the stock intake. My current engine set up just went 11.1@123 on 20 psi on a very conservative timing curve on straight pump gas. My intake is a huge part of that equation.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Yeah it's nice to have an intake that flows rather than having to stack boost into it, which you then need to cool some way. Might could allow for a small phenolic spacer in the design to help decrease heat soak from the engine. Or some funneling of the runners to act as velocity stacks.

Or, design an ITB intake :eyebrows:

[acannell]

Yeah it's nice to have an intake that flows rather than having to stack boost into it, which you then need to cool some way. Might could allow for a small phenolic spacer in the design to help decrease heat soak from the engine. Or some funneling of the runners to act as velocity stacks.

Or, design an ITB intake :eyebrows:


Well may as well go all the way! Alot easier when the whole thing is a from-scratch design.

What would the ultimate combination of velocity stack/funnel + independent throttle body + big plenum look like? I mean physically how does all that fit together? Where does the plenum go?
Or do you not need one?

And what would be the source of the throttle bodies?

1. L-body fitment (lengel, iTurbo)
2. throttle on passenger side (iTurbo)
3. attention to runners not being too short (lengel)
4. compatibility with keeping A/C compressor (lengel)
5. price somewhere between $572 and $900 shipped..TBD (acannell)
6. a couple dozen orders, depends on many factors though (acannell)

7. Independent throttle bodies (force fed mopar)
8. Phenolic heat transfer spacers (force fed mopar)
9. velocity stacks (force fed mopar)

[Force Fed Mopar]

With ITB, the plenum would really be an air collection box on top of the throttle bodies that directs air into them from the turbo/intercooler. This would work for either turbo or na setups, na could have the option to build their own air cleaner/cleaners that would sit directly on top of them, depending on design and engine bay room. Or use the turbo air box to receive air from a ram air or cold air intake.

Before you laugh about an NA TIII :D it might be an option for the circle track guys that have to run factory setups and/or parts, ie can't run Neon heads on a 2.2. Plus, more people you can sell too ;)

[iTurbo]

With ITB, the plenum would really be an air collection box on top of the throttle bodies that directs air into them from the turbo/intercooler. This would work for either turbo or na setups, na could have the option to build their own air cleaner/cleaners that would sit directly on top of them, depending on design and engine bay room. Or use the turbo air box to receive air from a ram air or cold air intake.

Before you laugh about an NA TIII :D it might be an option for the circle track guys that have to run factory setups and/or parts, ie can't run Neon heads on a 2.2. Plus, more people you can sell too ;)

Years ago I bought a Masi 16v engine from a guy in Boise ID. I know this is already sounding off topic, but hear me out.... The guy was an older racer that was into racing at Bonneville. He had designed his own car, built it from scratch, and for some reason or another, decided to use the Masi 16v engine as the power plant. I only talked to him for a few hours and got an awesome tour of his shop. He supposedly had connections at Mopar back in the day which steered him to use the Masi 16v. He had the engine custom built with a billet 2.0L crank, custom forged/coated Arias pistons, Cunningham forged rods, brand new head, etc..... I asked him about wether or not he had the stock intake manifold or turbocharger and he went back inside his house and *gave* me the Garret T67 and ITB throttle body setup he planned to use for his 'streamliner'. The ITB consisted of a manifold/flange plate to which the ITB 'module' bolted to with Hilborn mechanical fuel injection. Belt driven fuel pumps/cogs etc....the whole nine yards. He even made the ignition coil himself. Craziest day ever.

[DoubleD]

I would be interested in this as well. I am running a stock intake and head with the stock throttle body. I am probably flirting with 500 WHP as well. Never dynoed, currently on E85 at 38 pounds of boost. I would also what to be able to run AC and I have a much thicker radiator that stock (Griffe Aluminum Unit) so the "L-body like" clearance would be need on my IROC R/T as well.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Running a head flange, and the plenum right to it like Lengel's intake is now without the extensions would be the way to go. The T3 has a bunch of runner length inside the head on the intake side. There's cross section pics somewhere of a T3 head. So even though the runners on lengel's intake are short the runner length overall isn't that short. These engines have enough bottom end torque that to kill some of it with a big short runner intake is a good thing.

Remember an engine is an air pump, the more efficiently you can get air into an out of the motor the more power you'll make.



Jeremy,
He was probably steered towards the masi because there's no cracking issues, cam on bucket means much more rpm and less moving weight, narrower head which means the overall intake runner can be really short, and less weight overall. It's just a much better head for racing than the T3 setup for those and maybe other reasons. Can the T3 make power? Oh for sure, but if a cost no object situation then the masi head is where it's at between the 2.

[karlak]

Is it built yet!!!!

[karlak]

Oh what could have been. :(