Recap of my idle problems - some input on a solution.

[85_600]

As some of you know I've been having an annoying "slow speed" problem with the idle on my 85 Dodge 600.

At slower speeds, for example, in residential areas, parking lots and garages, when I stop accelerating ( take my foot off the pedal ) the idle drops then comes back to a decent level.
This drop and the way the car "catches" itself is dependent on the outside temps. The warmer the outside air is, the less of a chance the car has to catch itself and keep idling. The colder it is outside it always catches itself.

In these threads here:

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=685

I have pretty much covered everything.

Now, what I'm suspecting is a fuel system problem, hence why I'm posting here.

In the last post I made I had codes 51 and 52. Now, I only have 51. The 52 is now gone.

I'm just wondering what could be the root cause of this idle issue I have been having and this code 51 now. For a small recap of what has been replaced and symptoms:

Replaced the O2 sensor 2 months ago with a Autozone Bosch unit.
Idle issues still apparent even after the O2 was replaced.
Warmer temps aggravate the idle issue: The car doesn't want to "catch itself" when coming to a stop.
Colder temps seem to keep the car running when coming to a stop.

Now, since my incident with the loss of 8 inches of vacuum ( which is fine now ) I now have a surging feeling when driving slower than 35mph.

On top of all of this, when I'm in boost the car runs GREAT, TERRIFIC, EXCELLENT! Getting to boost is another story. When I first get the that point it feels like I break through a gate, then boost hits and I'm fine. Before boost hits and I'm stumbling.

I'd just like to hear IF this sounds like a fuel related problem and IF so, which component MAY be the culprit. From what I have learned it could be one or more of these items:

1 - Injectors
2 - Filter
3 - Pump
4 - FPR

Any insight would be great! :)

Thanks!
Paul

[Una]

Replaced the O2 sensor 2 months ago with a Autozone Bosch unit.
Idle issues still apparent even after the O2 was replaced.

Ding ding ding ding! We have a winner.. Bosch O2 sensors are JUNK...

[85_600]

Well, since the Autozone one seems to be crap, how about this one - I have a TechEdge WBO2 that uses a Bosch 7057 sensor. The unit can be configured to simulate a NB output. Would this Bosch be crap as well?

http://wbo2.com/ <---Scroll to the bottom of the screen.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I've used a Bosch O2 sensors for years and never had a problem. I had an Hbody turbo that surged while cruising along. I pulled the distrib cap with the wires still plugged in and found that they weren't inserted all the way into the cap. Some caps require drilling to fit the wires. I also found the rotor a bit hashed and the shutter wheel extremely loose. Just getting the wires all the way in helped a ton, replaced the distrib since the shutter wheel was too far gone to try and glue into place the next day and it was totally gone. Might be something to look at.

[85_600]

I've used a Bosch O2 sensors for years and never had a problem. I had an Hbody turbo that surged while cruising along. I pulled the distrib cap with the wires still plugged in and found that they weren't inserted all the way into the cap. Some caps require drilling to fit the wires. I also found the rotor a bit hashed and the shutter wheel extremely loose. Just getting the wires all the way in helped a ton, replaced the distrib since the shutter wheel was too far gone to try and glue into place the next day and it was totally gone. Might be something to look at.

From reading all the posts on here and at TD.com about these sensors I get the feeling that they are a crap shoot - When you buy one you just don't know if it's going to be a decent one or one that will go bad in a week or so. Does anyone know how much a Mopar O2 costs?

[Una]

$115 or so last I saw.. FWDPerformance stocks them for a bit less than that.. You may be able to haggle the dealer down to FWDP's price... ;)

[85_600]

$115 or so last I saw.. FWDPerformance stocks them for a bit less than that.. You may be able to haggle the dealer down to FWDP's price... ;)

And for around that price we are guaranteed a GOOD sensor, I would hope. :nod:

[Stevien1]

From what your describing, the car runs fine in open loop (when it's cold and when it's in boost)- correct? The LM ignores the O2 sensor in open loop, so that should be a red flag against your current Bosch sensor. Are you still running a single wire or have you converted to the 4-wire?

IMO, your best bet would be to convert to a 4-wire O2 and use a new Mopar sensor. ;)

-Chuck James

[85_600]

From what your describing, the car runs fine in open loop (when it's cold and when it's in boost)- correct? The LM ignores the O2 sensor in open loop, so that should be a red flag against your current Bosch sensor. Are you still running a single wire or have you converted to the 4-wire?

IMO, your best bet would be to convert to a 4-wire O2 and use a new Mopar sensor. ;)

-Chuck James

It's not a WOT boost, just even a slight whistle of the turbo type of boost that it's running fine in. I thought the open loop was just WOT and being cold? If I'm wrong then I'd more than happy to upgrade to take care of this once and for all.

[85_600]

Again I'm being owned by my skills at reading. :o I do much better with written AND pictorial guides on how to upgrade stuff.

I checked out The Dodge Garage for the O2 upgrade. It's a bit fuzzy for me to figure out. Is there another set of instructions somewhere that are a bit more clear? This would be for a "single wire --> four wire upgrade."

Thanks!
Paul :)

[GLHNSLHT2]

Well 1st I'd check the wiring from the O2 to the computer, I've seen them touch the turbo and melt. Might also be chaffing somewhere down the line. They'll throw codes then. Did you take note at all of the plug wire suggestion?? Seen that a couple times on different cars. Amazing they run. You've got enough answers you should be able to find the problem. I've run bosch o2's on numerous different cars for years and haven't seen a problem yet.

[85_600]

Well 1st I'd check the wiring from the O2 to the computer, I've seen them touch the turbo and melt. Might also be chaffing somewhere down the line. They'll throw codes then. Did you take note at all of the plug wire suggestion?? Seen that a couple times on different cars. Amazing they run. You've got enough answers you should be able to find the problem. I've run bosch o2's on numerous different cars for years and haven't seen a problem yet.

I'd check some of these ideas out today BUT, I'm working this weekend. I'll get a chance Monday and again a bit later in the week.

So far, I have the plug wire idea to check, and the O2 idea, as long as I can get another set of instructions for the upgrade. This and my rear shocks problem should keep me busy for a while :o

Thanks!

[85_600]

On the off hand chance that my above problem may have been related to the plugs and or wires, I double checked the wires, both at the plugs and the dis cap. I took pics of the plugs. The pics start from the passenger side to the drivers side, 1, 2, 3, 4. What's the deal with #3? Too rich ( I think ) but WHY only #3?:confused:

http://www.xwarlordx.com/red97sc2/Pics/600%20Pics/Plug_Pass_Side_1.jpg
http://www.xwarlordx.com/red97sc2/Pics/600%20Pics/Plug_Pass_Side_2.jpg
http://www.xwarlordx.com/red97sc2/Pics/600%20Pics/Plug_Pass_Side_3.jpg
http://www.xwarlordx.com/red97sc2/Pics/600%20Pics/Plug_Driver_Side_4.jpg

Thanks again!
Paul :)

[Una]

Bad injector, wrong injector? Or the other 3 are bad/wrong.. Change all 4 injectors as a set. I bet that's your problem.. Every time that cylinder fires the O2 sensor freaks out.

[85_600]

Bad injector, wrong injector? Or the other 3 are bad/wrong.. Change all 4 injectors as a set. I bet that's your problem.. Every time that cylinder fires the O2 sensor freaks out.

Are these good enough / too much for a stock application?

http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25_30&products_id=177

[Una]

Those are fine for a 2.2L T1 car.. Won't work in a 2.5L T1 or a TII car..

[85_600]

Hey, wait a minute...My plugs - That reminds me of TheDodgeGarage article - something about two cylnders running lean and two runnign rich, and the cure was switching the injector connections around. Does anyone know where this is located at TDG? I can't seem to find it. I showed a friend the pics and he said the two WHITE ones were way lean and the other two were rich - this is what reminded me of that article...

[GLHNSLHT2]

#3 looks good with #4 looking a little worse. They're nice and tan. Just pulled out the plugs in my bone stock 87 2.2 T1 new yorker and they were just a tad leaner than your #3 plug on all 4 plugs. Perfect. My 2.5 T2 setup looks likes your #4 plug now but used to look like your #1 and 2 plugs which was about 15.1:1 on the dyno under boost. WAY lean! I'd rather have them all look like #3 than the rest of them. Where the wires pressed all the way into thier locking positions when looking at the cap from underneath? How's the "stator cup"? Is it tight on it's mounts in the bottom of the distrib?

[85_600]

#3 looks good with #4 looking a little worse. They're nice and tan. Just pulled out the plugs in my bone stock 87 2.2 T1 new yorker and they were just a tad leaner than your #3 plug on all 4 plugs. Perfect. My 2.5 T2 setup looks likes your #4 plug now but used to look like your #1 and 2 plugs which was about 15.1:1 on the dyno under boost. WAY lean! I'd rather have them all look like #3 than the rest of them. Where the wires pressed all the way into thier locking positions when looking at the cap from underneath? How's the "stator cup"? Is it tight on it's mounts in the bottom of the distrib?

It's funny you should mention this, BECAUSE, on my way to work ( after I checked the plugs and wires <--more in a sec ) the 600 ran like PERFECT! There was no stumble down low and it went, and went good! ;)

However, when I got to work I did the same thing - idle for about 10 minutes ( to keep warm - got colder than it was suppose to ) and again, right when I was going to turn it off - STUMBLE STUMBLE STUMBLE , just like when I lost the 8 inches of vacuum. I let it do this thinking it would smooth out but it didn't. So, I turned it off, then checked for codes - 52 AGAIN :mad: Turned the car back on and it was running a tiny bit rougher than before, just like it did BEFORE I did the wire and plug checking...WHICH, I found that the #3 plug, the darker one, the wire for this on the cap was not real tight. So, after checking the plugs I double checked all the wires to the plugs and to the cap, pushing down to make sure they were all seated nice and tight. I didn't have enough time to take the cap off but the #3 was not on tight. My drive to work was the best drive I had after I did all of this and so I was glad to see that SOMETHING I did today helped it, even if it didn't last.

So, what are a TD plugs suppose to look like then - I thought it was supposed to be like #'s 1,2 and 4.

Any thought now on what could cause this? Fuel system problem? Spark - and or fuel?

Thanks Again!
Paul :)

[GLHSKEN]

Honestly... 3 and 4 look the best... with 4 being about perfect... (but Hey... I run lotsa boost and like lotsa fuel ;) )

[85_600]

Honestly... 3 and 4 look the best... with 4 being about perfect... (but Hey... I run lotsa boost and like lotsa fuel ;) )

So, a fueling problem? I'm guessing so I hope I'm learning something and am right.

If so, now starts the diagnosis of WHAT is causing it. :yuck:

[riceboyler]

So, to help diagnose my idle issue, if all of my plugs are worse than number 3 (and I mean way worse, as in completely black), I can assume that something else is causing the car to run really rich? :)

If the FPR is leaking, what effect would that have?