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HSKR
07-01-2015, 10:18 PM
Where is the best place to buy new pistons from? Going to get my stock block rebuilt, since the 2.5L has developed an oil leak, and I need new pistons. I have rods, and will get crank fixed.

HSKR
07-02-2015, 10:17 PM
Nothing?

Turbo Joe
07-02-2015, 10:28 PM
Where is the best place to buy new pistons from? Going to get my stock block rebuilt, since the 2.5L has developed an oil leak, and I need new pistons. I have rods, and will get crank fixed.

TO Answer your question as best as possible, let me put it to you this way... whats the best icecream flavor? see my point? people will have different opinions on who makes the BEST pistons for our cars. I like JE Pistons and also like Wiseco Pistons, but there are other companies out there. I just prefer JE Pistons or Wiseco .. Turbosunleashed.com, fwdperformance.com , forwardmotioninc.com are good places to shop at.

HSKR
07-02-2015, 10:40 PM
I didn't see any pistons listed on TUs website, FWDP only shows the venolias. I wasn't asking for best piston, just best place to buy from, as in, cheapest. On a tight budget. I have JE SRP pistons in my truck.

Force Fed Mopar
07-02-2015, 11:16 PM
We just got a set of .040 over Wiseco TIII pistons from TU for 91dodgespiritrt's car. They were around $570 shipped I think.

tryingbe
07-02-2015, 11:27 PM
I didn't see any pistons listed on TUs website

http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/forged-pistons-c-239_235_47_74.html

4 l-bodies
07-03-2015, 01:28 AM
No one makes forged inexpensive pistons for our motors. You can spend $499-750 for a set of pistons these days depending on what you want. CP, Ross, Venolia, JE, Diamond, Aries, Wiseco, etc., all have made pistons for our applications. The last set of custom pistons I had made up (for the other 16V) were around $750 with upgraded pins & rings, asymmetrical design, and a 5th spare piston. Additional money will be spent on coatings.
IMO, when it comes to pistons you kind of get what you pay for. What rings if any come with them? What pin size and material did they use? What do they weigh? What style of locks? Are they using 2618 material? I've had TIII Diamond pistons made up before a couple of times. They came out very nice, but the last time the manufacturer couldn't count and ended up with 5 when I ordered 4. So customer got a free spare ash tray. Your best bet for price is probably to use a stocked piston from one of the vendors.
Todd

HSKR
07-03-2015, 11:59 AM
No one makes forged inexpensive pistons for our motors. You can spend $499-750 for a set of pistons these days depending on what you want. CP, Ross, Venolia, JE, Diamond, Aries, Wiseco, etc., all have made pistons for our applications. The last set of custom pistons I had made up (for the other 16V) were around $750 with upgraded pins & rings, asymmetrical design, and a 5th spare piston. Additional money will be spent on coatings.
IMO, when it comes to pistons you kind of get what you pay for. What rings if any come with them? What pin size and material did they use? What do they weigh? What style of locks? Are they using 2618 material? I've had TIII Diamond pistons made up before a couple of times. They came out very nice, but the last time the manufacturer couldn't count and ended up with 5 when I ordered 4. So customer got a free spare ash tray. Your best bet for price is probably to use a stocked piston from one of the vendors.
Todd

Thank you for the informative and complete reply.

acannell
07-03-2015, 12:21 PM
I called pretty much everyone and compared prices.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?76939-new-Venolia-forged-pistons-only-80-each-s-h

TLDR:


If you need the full shebang of pistons + rings + locks + pins, looks like TU and FWDP have the best deals, and are basically the same price if you go by their website pricing and assume $15 for shipping.

If you just want the pistons and locks, made to match your existing pins, rings, and bores, Venolia has by far the best price at $336 shipped.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/forgedpricing_zps17bb0ab8.jpg

HSKR
07-03-2015, 12:48 PM
I'm assuming that I'm going to have to get cylindders bored as the #3 piston is stuck in the block from hammering the head when the rod broke.

acannell
07-03-2015, 01:07 PM
I'm assuming that I'm going to have to get cylindders bored as the #3 piston is stuck in the block from hammering the head when the rod broke.

BTW what pistons are you thinking of replacing? Are they 0.030" cast mahles for a 2.5 turbo by any chance?

Chris W
07-03-2015, 01:58 PM
I called pretty much everyone and compared prices.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?76939-new-Venolia-forged-pistons-only-80-each-s-h

TLDR:


If you need the full shebang of pistons + rings + locks + pins, looks like TU and FWDP have the best deals, and are basically the same price if you go by their website pricing and assume $15 for shipping.

If you just want the pistons and locks, made to match your existing pins, rings, and bores, Venolia has by far the best price at $336 shipped.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/forgedpricing_zps17bb0ab8.jpg

Venolias require additional machining for the wrist pins that you have to take in account. Adding larger/heavier wrist pins is a power robber and not necessary. Venolia Pistons also require more clearance which causes excessive piston noise and the knock sensor will pull back timing.

Chris-TU

acannell
07-03-2015, 10:37 PM
Venolias require additional machining for the wrist pins that you have to take in account. Adding larger/heavier wrist pins is a power robber and not necessary. Venolia Pistons also require more clearance which causes excessive piston noise and the knock sensor will pull back timing.

Chris-TU

The prices I got directly from Venolia were for stock pin sizes (.901). The FWDP prices are the 0.912 size. But either way why would additional machining be required? One is meant for the .901 (stock size, directly from Venolia), and the other is meant for 0.912 and comes with 0.912 pins, (Venolia from FWDP)..so whats the additional machining?

I spoke to Wiseco and Venolia and they both said the same thing about required clearance and their machining tolerances IIRC. Can you elaborate?

Force Fed Mopar
07-04-2015, 12:54 AM
Venolia uses a different alloy (2618 I think?) that expands more than the Wisecos and other common pistons.

HSKR
07-04-2015, 01:16 AM
New pistons would be for the stock 2.2L block

Chris W
07-04-2015, 02:49 AM
The prices I got directly from Venolia were for stock pin sizes (.901). The FWDP prices are the 0.912 size. But either way why would additional machining be required? One is meant for the .901 (stock size, directly from Venolia), and the other is meant for 0.912 and comes with 0.912 pins, (Venolia from FWDP)..so whats the additional machining?

I spoke to Wiseco and Venolia and they both said the same thing about required clearance and their machining tolerances IIRC. Can you elaborate?

Last time we checked with Venolia they only offered a standard Chevy (.927") or Ford (.912") pin. They were not willing to make the .901 pin which is why we sell more forged Wiseco pistons. The additional machining was to machine the weak end of the rod for the larger wrist pin.

Venolias require more piston to wall clearance. Because of the extra clearance they can be noisy and set off the knock sensor.


Stephane Beauregard runs the Wisecos in his 8 second Charger. If they are durable enough for his race application then they should be good enough for your street car.


Chris-TU

acannell
07-04-2015, 09:38 AM
2618 = more durable alloy thats generally better for turbos
4032 = higher silicon alloy thats generally more brittle, but because of higher silicon content, more dimensionally stable

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1110-piston-anatomy-tech-knowledge/

Both Venolia and Wiseco will make pistons out of either. Although they seem to reserve the 4032 for motorsports stuff (motorcycles, ATV's, etc..)

All of my pricing and info was based on 2618 alloy.

Venolia and Wiseco will make pistons for you with all kinds of custom geometry, the least of which is the pin diameter. I talked to Doug at Venolia and Sue at Wiseco a few months ago and both of them confirmed they could make pistons for the 0.901 pin. It would be really, really strange if they said "Nope we cant make your custom piston to a pin diameter you want." They can do whatever you want. The piston is machined from scratch.

Wall clearance is something YOU decide when you tell them the diameter of the piston you want. The alloys are the same so the expansion rate is the same between Venolia/Wiseco. Have your block inspected with a tenths dial bore indicator after machining and then have the pistons made to that diameter with a wall clearance you specify.

BTW all of this was for the 8V 2.2/2.5 but should also apply to the T3 (or any piston they make really)

Force Fed Mopar
07-04-2015, 10:08 AM
The commonly available Venolias for the 2.2/2.5 are 2618 alloy. Obviously you can get either when special ordering, but the OP is looking for an off-the-shelf piston from a vendor.

acannell
07-04-2015, 10:29 AM
The commonly available Venolias for the 2.2/2.5 are 2618 alloy. Obviously you can get either when special ordering, but the OP is looking for an off-the-shelf piston from a vendor.

Where did he say off-the-shelf or from a vendor?

I think its unlikely that TU or FWDP are selling 4032 pistons. That would be alarming. But it would explain why one has a reputation for more slap than another.

Also it would be nice to know if TU or FWDP actually stock these pistons or are having them machined-on-demand and so the same multiple week leadtime applies?

Regardless, TU and FWDP have the best pricing for a kit which includes pistons, rings, pins, and locks. If you're getting the whole shebang and dont want any custom changes then it seems like ordering from them would save you about $100 versus getting all those pieces direct.

But if you want just pistons and locks, and have pins and rings you can reuse (like from cast Mahles), $336 direct from Venolia/Wiseco is a steal. I talked to both of them in detail about it and they had no problem making the pistons to match my existing pins/rings, at that price. They told me to send in a piston/ring/pin set for them to measure.

glhs727
07-04-2015, 10:52 AM
[QUOTE=acannell;1085494]

Also it would be nice to know if TU or FWDP actually stock these pistons or are having them machined-on-demand and so the same multiple week leadtime applies?

QUOTE]

We keep 2.2 8v std, .020.,.030, .040 .58v std., .020, .030, and .040 in stock
as well as 2.2 16v .020 and .030 and 2.5 16v piston in stock.

As far as noise goes, the recommended piston to wall clearance is .005-.007. if you keep your piston to wall clearance at the 5 thous. clearance, you minimize any noise or piston slap and we feel the better alloy makes a more durable and forgiving piston.

Force Fed Mopar
07-04-2015, 11:10 AM
I didn't see any pistons listed on TUs website, FWDP only shows the venolias. I wasn't asking for best piston, just best place to buy from, as in, cheapest. On a tight budget. I have JE SRP pistons in my truck.


Where did he say off-the-shelf or from a vendor?


Cheap and on a tight budget does not scream custom made piston to me :confused:

Force Fed Mopar
07-04-2015, 11:20 AM
The Wiseco TIII pistons we just got recommend .0030 PTW clearance, pretty sure that's gonna be a 4032 alloy. Same goes for the Wiseco 2.5 8v pistons that have been in my car for 4 years now.

acannell
07-04-2015, 11:32 AM
I didn't see any pistons listed on TUs website, FWDP only shows the venolias. I wasn't asking for best piston, just best place to buy from, as in, cheapest. On a tight budget. I have JE SRP pistons in my truck.


Cheap and on a tight budget does not scream custom made piston to me :confused:

The difference between "custom made"/"special order" and "off-the-shelf" with regards to forged pistons for our engines isn't the usual one. Venolia and Wiseco both told me that they do not stock pistons for our cars. So 100% of them are made to order. Making changes to the basic piston design for our cars doesn't change the price. The pricing I got was for a one-off piston design. I would send them one of my pistons, and they could make a forged design based on it and their expertise, along with my desired changes. So really, any forged pistons for our cars are essentially "custom made" or "special order". There isn't an alternative. FWDP or TU are simply buying several sets at a time and also offering a great deal on a combo package.

Both Venolia and Wiseco actually answer the phone and have great customer service for technical questions. Just google "Sue at wiseco" and you will see how often she gets mentioned when people are talking about forged pistons. Anyone can call them up and get answers to questions like this immediately. There really is no reason to continue with the same misconceptions about clearances, alloys, and "custom" versus "off the shelf". Just ask them.

Forged pistons have more of an advantage than just strength, and thats the design changes you can make without any penalty in cost or lead time, since they are all made on demand. Two common ones that come to mind would be valve relief and compression changes.

So to the OP: if you cant find what you want from FWDP or TU (since its TIII pistons you're looking for), then call up Sue at Wiseco and Doug at Venolia and ask them what I did. I would imagine they will tell you to just send in one of your old pistons and they will make a forged version for you. Just like they said they would do for the 2.5 8V.

Also you might try Mike at FM. Im not sure if he sells TIII pistons or not. His prices were pretty high but I was only checking for a 2.5 8V.

acannell
07-04-2015, 11:39 AM
From Wiseco's site:

"WPF forges Aluminum alloys, Aluminum MMC’s, Lithium Aluminum, and dispersion strengthened alloys. Common alloys are 2618, 4032, 2024, 6061, 7075, and other non-ferrous alloys. Wiseco purchases large quantities 4032 and 2618 and can pass the savings on to you. Processes for customer owned material are available.."

From Venolias site:

"Venolia's forged racing pistons are made of tried and proven 2618 T61 or 4032 T62 alloy. The billet is heated to 800°F and forged with a 3,000 ton high-speed mechanical forge press - this produces a fine grain structure in the aluminum which yields the strongest possible blank."

Alloy is a choice. You can pick whatever manufacturer you want, and then pick whatever alloy you want from that manufacturer. Wiseco, Venolia, etc.. do not have some strange allegiance with one alloy or another. Same with clearance, its up to you. The power of getting forged pistons is not just strength, its that you get to make all the design choices you want because they are all made on-demand. You get all the control and the responsibility.

4 l-bodies
07-04-2015, 01:34 PM
Last time we checked with Venolia they only offered a standard Chevy (.927") or Ford (.912") pin. They were not willing to make the .901 pin which is why we sell more forged Wiseco pistons. The additional machining was to machine the weak end of the rod for the larger wrist pin.
Chris-TU
Chris next time you check into pistons, look into a .905 pin size. It is a very common size. That is what I always order if using a custom piston and rebuilt 2.5 TI/TII/TIII/TIV rods. No rebushing is required. A slight hone of the factory bushing while getting rods resized and your good to go. Of course I also drill the small end for better oiling. That way your not making the small end of the rod any weaker, and user doesn't pay the expense of rebushing his/her factory rods.
I often wondered why vendors never did offer a .905 pin (at least as an option). It seems like such a logical choice when you are getting the rods resized.
Todd