97 Neon brakes won't lock up

[cordes]

I have re-bled the brakes. I have fixed a leaking line. I'm fairly certain that it must be MC related now. If I stomp on the brakes the car will stop pretty quickly, but I'm using all the pedal travel and the car should probably be able to lock up the brakes?

Any ideas? How do I tell if the car originally was an ABS car? There are certainly more lines running to the MC than the two that go to our older TMs. I think there are four going to this one so I'm guessing that they may not be using a separate prop valve?

[bfarroo]

My experience has been that if the car has ABS and you activate it you will know it, you hear a growling and can feel the pulsing in the pedal. How are you bleeding the brakes? I've had issues where using a vacuum bleader would not get a good pedal feel and had to go to the tried and true two person pump and bleed method.

[acannell]

I have re-bled the brakes. I have fixed a leaking line. I'm fairly certain that it must be MC related now. If I stomp on the brakes the car will stop pretty quickly, but I'm using all the pedal travel and the car should probably be able to lock up the brakes?

Any ideas? How do I tell if the car originally was an ABS car? There are certainly more lines running to the MC than the two that go to our older TMs. I think there are four going to this one so I'm guessing that they may not be using a separate prop valve?

I dont think the ABS system will ever allow the brakes to lock up, especially at maximum effort. ???

[cordes]

My experience has been that if the car has ABS and you activate it you will know it, you hear a growling and can feel the pulsing in the pedal. How are you bleeding the brakes? I've had issues where using a vacuum bleader would not get a good pedal feel and had to go to the tried and true two person pump and bleed method.

I have brand new speed bleeders on the front and I've done the old hose in a jar of fluid trick in the back. At this point I think air in the system is a low probability scenario.


I dont think the ABS system will ever allow the brakes to lock up, especially at maximum effort. ???

I know that this car has always locked up the brakes for me in the ice etc. I've never had to work on an ABS car though so I really have no idea what to look for in case something is amiss.

[turbovanman²]

Look for sensors, old wiring, toner rings on the axles etc.

How are you bleeding it?

[cordes]

My experience has been that if the car has ABS and you activate it you will know it, you hear a growling and can feel the pulsing in the pedal. How are you bleeding the brakes? I've had issues where using a vacuum bleader would not get a good pedal feel and had to go to the tried and true two person pump and bleed method.


I dont think the ABS system will ever allow the brakes to lock up, especially at maximum effort. ???


Look for sensors, old wiring, toner rings on the axles etc.

How are you bleeding it?

I'm not seeing anything which is indicative of ABS, but I don't really know what to look for on the neons. I know it doesn't have the rings on the axles.

I'm bleeding the fronts by using the speed bleeders which I just picked up. For the rears I'm using a hose going into a jar of brake fluid. I'm pretty certain that I've got all the air out.

[black86glhs]

Either air trapped in the MC or pressure is bleeding off by bypassing the cups in the MC.

[Aries_Turbo]

internally collapsed hoses was my 97 neons problem.

brian

[black86glhs]

internally collapsed hoses was my 97 neons problem.

brianThis too!!

[cordes]

My experience has been that if the car has ABS and you activate it you will know it, you hear a growling and can feel the pulsing in the pedal. How are you bleeding the brakes? I've had issues where using a vacuum bleader would not get a good pedal feel and had to go to the tried and true two person pump and bleed method.


I dont think the ABS system will ever allow the brakes to lock up, especially at maximum effort. ???


internally collapsed hoses was my 97 neons problem.

brian

I've had that also, but it caused the brakes to stay locked up.

[shadow88]

Was anything else done at the same time? ie rotors, new pads ect?

[cordes]

My experience has been that if the car has ABS and you activate it you will know it, you hear a growling and can feel the pulsing in the pedal. How are you bleeding the brakes? I've had issues where using a vacuum bleader would not get a good pedal feel and had to go to the tried and true two person pump and bleed method.


I dont think the ABS system will ever allow the brakes to lock up, especially at maximum effort. ???


Was anything else done at the same time? ie rotors, new pads ect?

Yep. New rotors and pads.

[Aries_Turbo]

did you take the rubber boots for the sliders out of the caliper and clean out the rust that pinches the boot and doesnt allow the slider to slide? that and use brake lube rather than grease for the sliders?

ive seen that make neon brakes terrible.

Brian

[cordes]

I used some proper lube on the sliders. One of the calipers is actually new. I can't see the other sliders binding on the caliper pins. They can be removed and installed very easily.

[Aries_Turbo]

then that isnt the issue :)

Brian

[turbovanman²]

What pads did you buy? I've run into cheapo or crappy quality pads cause all kinds of issues, and stopping is one of them, lol.

[shadow88]

^^ For sure on some pads just not seating in very well.

Were the rotors replaced and did they have the proper finish on them, or were they machined and possibly not a good finish? I've seen this prevent good brake feel and do almost exactly what you describe.

Long shot guess..... The new caliper, the bleeder screw is on the top, right? ;) I know you know better, but we have all made mistakes on the basics.

[cordes]

Thermoquiet pads on some fancy looking slotted rotors. Bleeder screw is on the top (I've done that wrong before). It sure sounds like the pads are biting the rotors well. The car stops pretty normally, it's just that when I give it all the pedal has it won't lock up. I think I'll try a new MC and go from there. I sure hope that the Kroil I've sprayed on the lines does its thing so that I don't have to redo the lines at the MC also.

[shadow88]

I looked at an old picture of my 95 neon that had abs and it only has two lines coming from the passenger side of the MC.
Was the problem there before the leaky line repair? I wonder if you can just remove and bleed the MC that's already there if it ran dry, then re-do the rest of the brakes in order.

[cordes]

I don't think it would have locked them up before the repair as I needed to use almost all the travel for effective stopping. I just figured that the last bit would have done it. I may try to bleed the MC that's on there and go at it again.

[turbovanman²]

TQ pads are great so that part isn't the problem. What brand rotors? How many miles on the new pads? Could you lock them up before? Did you degrease the rotors? Slotted pads reduce surface area so that might be something to consider as well. Rear brakes adjusted properly if they are drums.

[cordes]

About 2 miles on the pads. They were $9 rotors off of rock auto, but they sure were packaged nicely and look fancy.

[turbovanman²]

Sorry cordes, didn't see your reply, I added more.

Brand of the rotors? Pics?

[cordes]

My experience has been that if the car has ABS and you activate it you will know it, you hear a growling and can feel the pulsing in the pedal. How are you bleeding the brakes? I've had issues where using a vacuum bleader would not get a good pedal feel and had to go to the tried and true two person pump and bleed method.


I dont think the ABS system will ever allow the brakes to lock up, especially at maximum effort. ???


Sorry cordes, didn't see your reply, I added more.

Brand of the rotors? Pics?

There didn't appear to be anything on the rotors when I removed them from the packaging. Here is a link to them.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=6178533&cc=1094015&jnid=493&jpid=3

[turbovanman²]

Rear brakes adjusted? Could you lock up the brakes before you changed pads and rotors?

Ok, those rotors are painted so no degreasing needed. I'd make sure the rears are up to snuff and put a few more miles on her. How did you break them in?

[cordes]

My experience has been that if the car has ABS and you activate it you will know it, you hear a growling and can feel the pulsing in the pedal. How are you bleeding the brakes? I've had issues where using a vacuum bleader would not get a good pedal feel and had to go to the tried and true two person pump and bleed method.


I dont think the ABS system will ever allow the brakes to lock up, especially at maximum effort. ???


Rear brakes adjusted? Could you lock up the brakes before you changed pads and rotors?

Ok, those rotors are painted so no degreasing needed. I'd make sure the rears are up to snuff and put a few more miles on her. How did you break them in?

I really don't think that I could have locked them up before. As I had to use most all of the pedal travel. There is a light drag in the rears so I'm guessing that they are adjusted well and they do have a good amount of material left on the shoes.

To break them in I drove about 55mph and made some stops as hard as I could before speeding back up and letting them cool in between. That's how I discovered that it wasn't even possible to lock up the brakes. It almost feels like you reach a certain point in the pedals travel and then it loses some pressure like fluid is getting by the piston on the MC somehow. That's why I wanted to make sure this wasn't some crazy ABS problem in a car that had the ABS disabled long before I took ownership.

- - - Updated - - -

ETA: I'll drive the car to work tomorrow and see how it goes.

[turbovanman²]

I'd drive it some more. Some of the smaller cars won't lock up the brakes as they are simply too small for the car.

[cordes]

My experience has been that if the car has ABS and you activate it you will know it, you hear a growling and can feel the pulsing in the pedal. How are you bleeding the brakes? I've had issues where using a vacuum bleader would not get a good pedal feel and had to go to the tried and true two person pump and bleed method.


I dont think the ABS system will ever allow the brakes to lock up, especially at maximum effort. ???


I'd drive it some more. Some of the smaller cars won't lock up the brakes as they are simply too small for the car.

I guess that could be. I would think that a guy would be able to lock up the brakes on a car with 175 width tires though.

[coronet2fast]

Neon brakes lock up if everything is ok. My 95 neon locked them up at 60mph before crashing into the Honda in front of me. I have also locked up my 98 neon r/t brakes. I am most likely struggling with the same problem as you. I recently replaced all brake lines and the mc and no longer have the pedal I once had. I believe the mc may be the issue, even though it is new and not a reman. I do know the neons call for a odd bleeding process not the normal farthest to nearest of mc. I have done it both ways prior with no problems. My only other thought was, can a bad flare allow air in and still hold fluid? Because the mc and lines are all that I changed. Just sharing my experience to see if it helps.

- - - Updated - - -

Neon brakes lock up if everything is ok. My 95 neon locked them up at 60mph before crashing into the Honda in front of me. I have also locked up my 98 neon r/t brakes. I am most likely struggling with the same problem as you. I recently replaced all brake lines and the mc and no longer have the pedal I once had. I believe the mc may be the issue, even though it is new and not a reman. I do know the neons call for a odd bleeding process not the normal farthest to nearest of mc. I have done it both ways prior with no problems. My only other thought was, can a bad flare allow air in and still hold fluid? Because the mc and lines are all that I changed. Just sharing my experience to see if it helps.

[black86glhs]

Neon brakes lock up if everything is ok. My 95 neon locked them up at 60mph before crashing into the Honda in front of me. I have also locked up my 98 neon r/t brakes. I am most likely struggling with the same problem as you. I recently replaced all brake lines and the mc and no longer have the pedal I once had. I believe the mc may be the issue, even though it is new and not a reman. I do know the neons call for a odd bleeding process not the normal farthest to nearest of mc. I have done it both ways prior with no problems. My only other thought was, can a bad flare allow air in and still hold fluid? Because the mc and lines are all that I changed. Just sharing my experience to see if it helps.

- - - Updated - - -

Neon brakes lock up if everything is ok. My 95 neon locked them up at 60mph before crashing into the Honda in front of me. I have also locked up my 98 neon r/t brakes. I am most likely struggling with the same problem as you. I recently replaced all brake lines and the mc and no longer have the pedal I once had. I believe the mc may be the issue, even though it is new and not a reman. I do know the neons call for a odd bleeding process not the normal farthest to nearest of mc. I have done it both ways prior with no problems. My only other thought was, can a bad flare allow air in and still hold fluid? Because the mc and lines are all that I changed. Just sharing my experience to see if it helps.I normally would say no to the fluid/air/flare question but as soon as it is said, someone has had it happen.

[cordes]

I drove the car to work today. It brakes better than it did before the pad and rotor change, but I guess that's not saying much. I'll think this over some more and decide where to go. I'm pretty certain that it's a bad MC, but we'll see.

[shackwrrr]

Do you remember the friction coefficient codes from the pads? Most semi metallic pads are either FE or EE. Ceramics are usually FF, and carbon metallic FG or GG.
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

[DaveSkrab]

How far is it to work? It takes a good number of miles to properly bed / burnish.... by good number, I mean like 20 or so.

[cordes]

My experience has been that if the car has ABS and you activate it you will know it, you hear a growling and can feel the pulsing in the pedal. How are you bleeding the brakes? I've had issues where using a vacuum bleader would not get a good pedal feel and had to go to the tried and true two person pump and bleed method.


I dont think the ABS system will ever allow the brakes to lock up, especially at maximum effort. ???


How far is it to work? It takes a good number of miles to properly bed / burnish.... by good number, I mean like 20 or so.

It was 13 miles one way. Although I could tell straight away that they were nicer than before. They still don't have what it takes when the pedal reaches full travel for a panic stop though. I really think fluid is bypassing the piston just a bit.

[cordes]

For what it's worth my white Neon that replaced the black one doesn't lock up the brakes either. It's a 95 SOHC 5 speed car. The braking performance is about the same between the two. Maybe the white one is a bit better since it has the rears properly adjusted.

[Aries_Turbo]

With full tread depth snow tires, my 97 would lock up the tires no problem.

with falken ziex ze-512's, it had a much harder time but if i really hammered the brakes, it would lock up a wheel or two.

Brian