My new gtp - many questions

[polopharm]

As most of you know I got the red and grey gtp, from Cali.

Have a question - how do you all jack your cars? Where do you place jack stands?

And now now a few issues

I have a super strong gas smell in the cabin, all lines from the tank appear tight and not cracked and or are new. Any thoughts?

I am am having what feels like fuel cut out at around 2800 rpm's. I thought it was related to the turbo, but is getting worse rapidly, and coming at lower and lower rpm's I am planning on replacing the fuel filter ,first although the previous owner just replaced it and the fuel pump. I also have a very noisy fuel pump. Loud electric buzz, which reverberates thru the firewall and drives me insane in the cabin. I would like to know what the stock filter and pump look like and where they mount as I think I have aftermarket parts.

The bushings on what I would call the control arms (the aluminum frame that attaches the coil overs to the wheels) are toast, plan on asking Johnny if he makes those
PO replaced the end links and bushings. I need to check the shocks as they are wet on the bottom,
i get a clunking sound when turning the wheel close to full lock, not sure what it is.

On the positive the car handles great, is a blast to drive, the ac works. It was quite quick till the fuel problem started

on a totally different note - does anyone know who bought the track time car that was sold at the rossion auction?

Thanks in advance.

[Johnny]

The bushings on what I would call the control arms (the aluminum frame that attaches the coil overs to the wheels) are toast, plan on asking Johnny if he makes those

http://www.polybushings.com/pages/2410.html

- - - Updated - - -


I have a super strong gas smell in the cabin, all lines from the tank appear tight and not cracked and or are new. Any thoughts?

check the filler tube hose clamp.
mine wasn't even there. Added it and smell went away.

[Johnny]

Have a question - how do you all jack your cars? Where do you place jack stands?

I use just behind the front wheels and right in front of the rear wheels. I use a small piece of plywood between the jack and the car.

- - - Updated - - -


I am am having what feels like fuel cut out at around 2800 rpm's

Change the fuel filters (both). Check the strainer right before the pump.

[2.216VTurbo]

Polo, I am out in Cali and know the PO and the PO's Mechanic. I asked him about the fuel smell, he confirmed that the lines are all new though the filler neck hose was not replaced. He suggested a new piece there. Also he said the fuel gauge did NOT work properly though he had worked on the sending unit a couple times. Is it possible you are lower on fuel than you might realize and that leads to the cut out? Is it still overboosting like you mentioned in a previous post?

[polopharm]

I am going to put some fuel in shortly. I thought this originally, because it started while turning sharply under acceleration, as happens in an un baffled fuel tank. Not sure if these tanks are baffled.
Also what is the capacity?

[Johnny]

It says 12 gallons on my tank.
There is a couple baffles in there.

[Johnny]

A few photos of inside my tank. Hard to see.

[2.216VTurbo]

If I solved both issues of yours in a single post are you sending me a cookie:wave1:?? Or a horse maybe;)

[player1up]

x2 Johnny.. I place the jack right behind the front wheel or right in front of the rear wheel.
I put jack stands under the engine frame close to the control arm mounts, but I have to take off the lower engine cover... something makes me queaszy about suspending the engine box with the body.

I too have the fuel smell but only within the first few miles of filling up, and mine likes to have more than 1/4 tank or it does the same thing as you're describing after a few hard corners. I know the tank is baffled ( and from Johnnys pics there should be no way for the pump to run dry ) but I suppose it could be fuel aeration as it sloshes around.

One thing that stands out from your post is the loud pump. Even with the 255 walbro in there during testing it wasn't loud enough for me to hear over the engine. I do hear it at key on, but it's drowned out as soon as she's fired.
When the walbro did fail on my Duster, it was loud enough to hear over the 360 from 10 feet away. It failed volume wise, not pressure wise. PSI was only a few psi low, but get on the throttle and the engine would about die.

I've had bad luck with EFI pumps. 2 replacement pumps on 2 cars about 2-3 weeks apart.

[168glhs1986]

I believe I'm the only one of the new owners that flushed their tank out with acid to remove the gobs of rust at the bottom of the tank from the rusted fuel level sender.

I would examine both your fuel filters very closely.

I can't comment on your fuel pump because I don't know where it's located.

My fuel pump is an ENORMOUS Weldon racing pump. Mine's located in the passenger side vent behind the AC Condensor.

Does the fuel cut occur at other RPM's greater than 2800 or just there and lower?

Check the shifter and electrical wire tunnel to the engine bay and make sure it's sealed with something besides carpet. I stuffed a large piece of foam there and it all of a sudden became a lot less noisy.

Granted I don't have carpet.

[Johnny]

Here is my fuel pump....and one of the filters.

[polopharm]

So the fuel smell is coming from the filler hose , that will be easy to remedy.
Today I had over boost for sure. I had been driving the car primarily at night and the gauge light is marginal, but today it spiked to over 15 psi, then maxed out gauge before cutting out , I laid off the throttle and in 2 seconds it's like normal. I just got a grainger valve in the mail today. Will install ASAP.

Interestingly I think I have both over boost and a bad pump/ filter, ( I am waiting on the correct filter to arrive) but when accelerating from 1st to second gear I get what feels the same as over boost but the boost gauge will read close to zero. For some reason it happens most between 1-2 gears then any other shift including aggressive down shifts.

Another question- do these cars have rev limiters ? If so at what rpm ?

[boost geek]

I still have yet to see a real gtp. you lucky guys

[player1up]

So the fuel smell is coming from the filler hose , that will be easy to remedy.
Today I had over boost for sure. I had been driving the car primarily at night and the gauge light is marginal, but today it spiked to over 15 psi, then maxed out gauge before cutting out , I laid off the throttle and in 2 seconds it's like normal. I just got a grainger valve in the mail today. Will install ASAP.

Interestingly I think I have both over boost and a bad pump/ filter, ( I am waiting on the correct filter to arrive) but when accelerating from 1st to second gear I get what feels the same as over boost but the boost gauge will read close to zero. For some reason it happens most between 1-2 gears then any other shift including aggressive down shifts.

Another question- do these cars have rev limiters ? If so at what rpm ?
Over boost causes are pretty straight forward ( in no particular order ):
- wastegate ( either actuator sticking, binding, not hooked up, blown diaphragm )
- vac lines ( cracked, mis-routed, missing pieces ) -- if this is the case, the g-valve wont help
- bad electrics ( map, baro, wg solenoid ) -- if it's a single piece, cool, if it's the wiring that's a deep rabbit hole.

Cars that sit for a long time can have all sorts of issues with soft parts and electrical components. If the map is reading low the ECU could allow it to overboost, could also run lean enough to cause some of the hesitation you're feeling.

Now that I'm thinking about it, the car should shutdown lower than 15psi if the MAP and baro are reading correctly even if there were a problem with the wg solenoid. With the 2bar MAP , my car would overboost shutdown BEFORE 15psi ( like 13 or 14 on the gauge )
That is telling me that the MAP sensor is bad.


Fuel cut feels the same if it's caused by the ECU due to overboost or just a bad pump...but sounds like you know that already.
Aaron was chasing a low voltage problem for a while. He was getting less than 12v to the pump at idle ( initially ). Seems like these cars have a less than optimal ground plain ;)
One of the very first things I did was clean as many connections as I could find , including replacing the relays. The connections inside can get corroded, especially after sitting for as long as most of these cars have.

They do have rev limiters, not sure the actual number but it's something like 6500. I only hit it once before I put the boostbutton SMEC in.

Wow, my post is all over the place, hope it makes sense.

[168glhs1986]

The stock head and turbo pretty much die after 6 grand. I would shift right around there

[polopharm]

Replaced fuel filter today. Didnt get to drive it yet we had 6" rain today. Definitely aftermarket in line filter. Not sure if this is the stock pump. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/28/63fb40fb69fccd675287ebab3002a046.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/28/06e743828311831554ff2922e9e33ef9.jpg

[Johnny]

Did you pour out the filter to see how dirty it was?

[polopharm]

It wasn't terrible , BUT the outflow post was broken , and maybe was sucking air. I gotta check the in line filter , I think it has a replaceable filter inside the housing.

[polopharm]

I went for a spin today .with the new fuel filter I know have no problem up untill I hit 5k rpm n 5 psi of boost. If I hold it there it acts like it's not getting enough fuel. I need to replace the pump or test it. The car did not over boost today.

Also I am having an intermittently sticking throttle. Foot off gas pedal but continues to increase rpms.

[Johnny]

If its not an issue at the throttle body, you'll have to look under the center console op by the throttle pedal. I just had mine apart. There are return springs there also. Also the area there might need a little lube.

[2.216VTurbo]

I went for a spin today .with the new fuel filter I know have no problem up untill I hit 5k rpm n 5 psi of boost. If I hold it there it acts like it's not getting enough fuel. I need to replace the pump or test it. The car did not over boost today.

Also I am having an intermittently sticking throttle. Foot off gas pedal but continues to increase rpms.

Aha, now we're getting somewhere. A cookie says the cam timing is advanced one tooth...

[polopharm]

So I pulled the in line fuel filter and found this inside http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/10/a0e90aa9ed01257e0f6aec5c4e8d7b62.jpg
And this was in the line. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/10/85d49745a2a02fa267a69b9a3b6049a8.jpg
So I looked into the fuel tank and found this http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/10/84daf51dec3c5bfd9ced4e0cd0d7c8b9.jpg
So then I had to acid wash the tank. Now it looks like this http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/10/fc4df7dd608895ab687ae0b56575a53c.jpg
So I will be replacing the pump and the filters.

I am a bit bummed out , look at the original posting when the car was listed for sale. I was expecting a bit more transparency from the PO.

While car was on the lift I discovered that the tie rods are shot as are all the ball joints. The motor and tranny mounts are toast. Cv boots are ripped. Flexible brake hoses are toast- they are zip tied on.
When we put it on the dyno it became apparent that the clutch is slipping. It is worse under load at around 4500 rpm.

Once the fuel system is sorted. I will start on the rest of the stuff. I was hoping to take the car to a track day this weekend, not looking promising.

[wheming]

For such a nice looking example, that is unfortunate. Usually after a vehicle has been sitting nearly 20 years, the fuel system is the first thing that needs attention.
However, knowing how the fuel will varnish and crystalize over that time, it might very well have had a fuel filter change and over time has sluffed off more of what has coated/accumulated in the tank.

You are on the right track with your plans to go through the entire fuel system. If you still have running issues you might consider injector cleaning or replacement.

[bgbmxer]

If the fuel filter and lines are like that it might be wise to send the injectors to mr injector and have them serviced just for piece of mind. The guy is awsome and flow sheets are provided before and after.

[polopharm]

Thanks for the input. I will check out doing the injectors. PO replaced all filters pump and had tank cleaned. So I was not expecting these issues. Its not hard to imagine the ball joints etc being bad given that the car has close to 70k on it. BUT I would have liked to know that prior to purchase. That what happens when you buy a car sight unseen.

[bgbmxer]

I still want one but that seems like it's not gonna happen so I'll just build my 86sc rwd lol.

[player1up]

That kinda looks like the first in-line filter deteriorated. The tan powder / paste...or is that sawdust :) There shouldn't be anything in the fuel system that color except filter material. Rust is way darker than that ( even dry ). Unless it's aluminum oxide / rust combination, but I digress...

I'm right there with you on the repairs.
On the way as we speak: Clutch, ball joints, tie rod ends and cv boots.

Other things to inspect:
The front trans mount for cracks. I know of at least 2 cars that are like that, mine being one.
Clutch system. I had to replace all of it, master, slave, lines.
Thermostat and radiator cap. Sometimes we don't think of the simple things
ALL of the electrical connections ( grounds specifically ). I was chasing intermittent lighting problems for a while. Stuff like brake lights and headlights.

Oh, If you have the tank out, don't forget to send Benji the measurements and some pics.

[168glhs1986]

Sorry to hear about your findings. As you know a road worthy car does not make a track worth car.

Did you neutralize the tank with baking sofa after cleaning it with acid?

I wish you would have had the car shipped to Brian in Philadelphia for a thorough welfare check. Boost problems, fuel lines, clutch, suspension, brakes, motor work are all things he can do on his lunch break :) He is amazing. I guess it's too late at this point.

Definately feel it out on the track as it sits but if you want a track worthy GTP you will be addressing the braking system and suspension as well.

[Johnny]

Seems EVERYONE that bought one of these has these issues and if they have not addressed them, then they still need addressed.

[bgbmxer]

That's the same white substance that clogged my friends big block ford all up. Its the coating of your tank that your seeing. It went through his high flow cleanable fuel filter and clogged the carb up just like the picture you provided. I'd def check injectors after seeing that. Cheaper than a piston for sure.

[Johnny]

After my tank was cleaned out well, I still needed to change the inline filter every month or so for a when. Got better and have not need to change it for 6 months. But will do it again before the driving season starts.

[ForzaV12]

I checked with the mechanic that did the work, the tank was removed and flushed, all the standard filters, lines and pump were replaced. Its entirely possible the tank still had some crud in it, I don't know. Sorry to hear that it clogged a filter. The car ran OK when it was here(other than issues stated) and the clutch didn't slip(it was run up through the gears without issue). Maybe it had some miles on it and after the impromptu parking lot autocrosses and a dyno run it began to slip-who knows.
Everything was disclosed that was known and zero attempt was made to "hide" anything. I don't do that-ever.
It is a very nice car(far better than many of the ratty examples out there) and replacing a few original suspension bits shouldn't be a big deal.
I asked the mechanic about the tank and he said it was flushed and he saw a coating inside and figured that was supposed to be there-maybe that's what had broken down with use. All the filters were fresh so I doubt anything made it to the injectors-hopefully not.

[bgbmxer]

Ethanol eats the coating away. That old fuel doesnt do that

[Reaper1]

I was about to post that...this is what ethanol fuel does! I keep saying it, and I'll keep on saying it...ethanol fuel is only good in cars that are designed for it. Other than that you are asking for problems...just like this.

As for the rest of it..yeah, typical 20-year something old car that's been sitting a long time type stuff. I wouldn't balk at that.

[polopharm]

Yes all good points. And I am not upset about the standard wear and tear items. And as you see the PO did in good faith do the fuel clean out , here in FL premium fuel has no ethanol and I have been running that.
I was able to adjust the clutch. The slave cylinder was not adjusted correctly. Hopefully disc etc is fine.
I am ordering stainless brake lines. And am waiting on my poly stuff from Johnny.
When randy and I go to rossion I am going to grab a rear subframe assembly to have as a spare.

[168glhs1986]

Post #650 in my build thread shows how we cleaned the tank with apple cider vinegar. It probably wasn't this clean from the factory.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?72859-T3-GTP-build/page33

[bgbmxer]

Even if you cleaned the tank if the coating was starting to go ethanol will destroy it I recommend using por15 gas tank kit to strip and coat. It's no one's fault other than ethanol. And I'm pretty sure most every fuel now a days has a certain amount of ethanol in it by law now

[2.216VTurbo]

Thanks for the input. I will check out doing the injectors. PO replaced all filters pump and had tank cleaned. So I was not expecting these issues. Its not hard to imagine the ball joints etc being bad given that the car has close to 70k on it. BUT I would have liked to know that prior to purchase. That what happens when you buy a car sight unseen.


You're new here Polo and as such you are still figuring out who the trusted board members/members of the TM community are. You may not care what I think or for my opinion but since I've been involved in your thread trying to help solve issues, I feel like I should have some say and I'm gonna give it out anyway:p I run the California chapter of the Shelby Dodge Automobile club, we have been meeting for almost 25 years and according to the national chapter president, we have one of the largest regular monthly gatherings of TM enthusiasts. I have no shortage of 'street Cred' within this group or the TM.com members. :nod: I have know 'Forza' for many of those years, I've even bought cars off of him. If it had a dent he knew about, he disclosed it. If it ran rough, he let me know ahead of purchase. Icould EASILY get other members of this community to tell the same story. Some issues have indeed arisen since you have started 'enthusiastic driving' of your GTP, however trying to implicate the 'PO' over them is way off base IMO. Were you hoping for a new car warranty on a 25 year old car:confused:

[polopharm]

As noted in my last post I did say that the PO contacted me and had done or at least paid for the work on the fuel system. The tank was supposed to have been removed cleaned etc fuel lines pump n filters replaced and the car was driven regularly for several hundred miles after.
It is a bummer to me, because the fuel system and the radiator( which leaks and is introducing air into the system) were noted as having had been all rebuilt and or replaced. As such I did not foresee those as areas which would need immediate attention.
I do not expect a 25 year old car to be free of issues.
Spirited driving for a total of perhaps 30 min is not, as you know, going to
create these issues.
Anyway my intention is not to be overly critical but I do feel disappointed for the aforementioned reasons.
A positive take home message is everyone should routinely clean their tanks and stay far away from ethanol.

[bgbmxer]

If you ever would like to sell it and cut your losses let this guy know....

[Reaper1]

Where are you at in Florida where premium doesn't have ethanol? I lived in Florida until about 3 years ago. All the places I ever got gas had at least 10%. There were stations you could get non-ethanol fuel and you could go to the boat dock, but don't get caught doing that. It's similar tax reasons as aviation fuel such as 100LL.

[player1up]

Racetrac stations sell ethanol free gas around here but it's 89 octane or something like that. Does not come from the same hose as the other 3 grades.
Might be opening a can of worms but... which is better E-free 89 or E10 93 octane?....or some kooky concoction ( e-free 89 + octane booster ) ?

[Reaper1]

LOL...I wouldn't buy fuel at a Racetrac for my lawn mower! For those that don't know...SUPER CHEAP gas! It's cheap because it's...well...cheap. They have gotten better over the years, but I've seen more people with issues from clogged filters and water in their fuel because of those stations than anywhere else. BJ's and SAM's Club are the next 2. (I turned wrenches on boats for 11 years in Jax) I always used Shell, Chevron, Gate (common in that area), Hess, and BP. I tried to stick with Shell or Chevron as much as possible. Pricing played a small part, but I knew I was always getting the same stuff...I always went to the same stations and the same pumps.

Ethanol does act as an octane booster and if you are going to be running it out fairly quickly, then I'd run the 93 E10. If it's going to sit for more than 2 weeks...get some Sta-Bil Marine (blue) fuel stabilizer. It will treat the fuel and keep it from going bad. The "marine" version also deals with moisture contamination a little better than the "normal" stuff. This is important for Florida for sure! I run stabilizer in my truck because I don't drive it often. Same with my car and with my 1/5th scale R/C gasser.

[168glhs1986]

^^ Sounds like your very cautious and bordering on paranoia when it comes to 93 octane with ethanol additives

[Reaper1]

After seeing what kind of damage it can do, yup. I am very cautious. Over cautious. Ok, maybe. Paranoid? Nope, the damage I've seen was very real and it cost the owners a lot of money to fix. I don't want to experience the same pain! If I can help prevent others from going through it, I will at least try.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Yep Chevron, Shell, Texaco or nothing for me. Previous owner of my old GLHT used the cheapest 92 octane he could find way back in the 90's. When I pulled the head off to convert to T2 after owning it a few months the valves, chambers and pistons were coated with carbon up to 1/4" thick. I didn't touch any of it, kept running Chevron through it and when I pulled the head a year later to do something else the carbon was almost compltely gone.

[polopharm]

Got the inline filter and new pump installed. Made a better bracket to mount them. Also made it so the plate can drop down for ease of replacement and service. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/14/3464f362c7cdf0c807dd5f2a9946798d.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/14/8f4d42c9646a2cf818abacfec73e2afe.jpg

[polopharm]

So we are replacing the clutch master cylinder , as it does not have a compatible throw with the slave cylinder.
Replacing all suspension bushing w johnny's stuff , and trying to modify them to work on the upper control arms.
2 out of 4 shocks are blown so replacing them wit NOS Carrera shocks we found at Rossion. All new ball joints , tie rods ends etc will go in at the same time.

[168glhs1986]

So we are replacing the clutch master cylinder , as it does not have a compatible throw with the slave cylinder.
.

This is interesting.....Which new slave cylinder did you get?

[polopharm]

PO had installed a nice anodized one from Pegasus. The bore of the slave vs the master were different. The master cylinder bore was smaller. I can't remember the numbers. We are keeping the slave which is new-ish and are replacing the master cylinder with one from Pegasus racing that has correct bore.

[polopharm]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/18/a13e3930711b47ca24dfbeb20f8b961b.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/18/dcc91f92b0a8be5b5b4ff59e3cb2fd8a.jpg

[polopharm]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/18/b8dc872de56f608ecb3b43533d257aef.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/18/a194dfc763c328700333453a1bb0665f.jpg

[polopharm]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/18/eb85aa287ffcee6dc91647d66dd0937d.jpg
Front end going back together. The tie rod ends - not all the daytona moog tie rods ends are the same. We got 2 with the same part number but one worked n 1 didn't. We ordered 6 more and 1 out of the 5 worked.

Just ordered new double adjustable shocks from Qa1 , the ones I got at Rossion did not work.
Just mounted my hoosier tires on the Cragar wheels I grabbed at the factory.

[Reaper1]

What didn't work with the tie rod ends?

[polopharm]

Wrong internal diameter.

[168glhs1986]

If your doing any rear work and were thinking about going to my Wilwood brake setup you should change the rear spindles to match the front.

[polopharm]

So I am trying to change the motor mounts adding Johnny's poly mounts. The tabs where the motor mounts bolt to the subframe are twisted and bent out of shape. I am not sure if it's due to torque and worn out mounts or if it was just a bad design. Anyone else had similar issues?
So far every job I start on the car has turned out to be far more of a project then expected.

[Johnny]

Mine were not out of shape. Can you post a shot of what you mean?

[polopharm]

I will take some pictures tomorrow. On further inspection I think that someone who worked on the car previously used a crow bar or something when pulling the engine/tranny, and bent the crap out of the subframe mounts

[polopharm]

So car came back from getting aligned. Hoping to get to drive it. So far I have driven it less then 50 miles since buying it. Now I find out the radiator is leaking ....

[player1up]

Did you use Johnny's alignment specs? The radiator is brass and just about any shop should be able to fix it cheaply if it doesn't have to be re-cored.

[Johnny]

I had my radiator fixed. Cleaned and new brass fitting that was leaking all done for a little over $100

[GLHNSLHT2]

any pics of the motor mounts yet?

[polopharm]

I did not know about Johnny's alignment specs. I took it to an alignment shop that specializes in race cars. I will post specs as well as corner weights etc when I get them tomorrow. I will also try snap some pictures of the motor mounts etc.

How much of a pain is removing the radiator?
And with MR2' s you have to be very careful when bleeding the cooling system, are there similar issues with the gtp?

[Johnny]

There is the two hoses and a small return hose that need to come off.
If I remember right, the tail lights come out to get to the hose clamps.
Then there are 4 bolts that un-bolt the radiator hole down brackets.

[polopharm]

I have driven the car a bit since wrapping things up. Enclosed is the alignment sheet, I wonder how it compares to Johnny's ?
I did the grainger valve , and that is a big plus. I removed the cat and installed The straight pipe, but I will have to come up with some muffler deal. It is obnoxiously loud, and really does not have a great sound except at WOT.
The new bushing kit from johnny, new shocks and 425 springs, tie rods n ball joints have tightened up the handling.
I don't feel much difference in the brakes from stainless lines and new pads.
The new slave cylinder and adjustment has gotten rid of any slipping but it is a bit grabby starting out.
I can't wait to drive it some.
I am hoping to do rally of florida in may. All 4 major tracks (track days not races) in 4 days with timed stages between tracks. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/08/7606396a9899f595a63ea9c01877aab8.jpg

[GLHNSLHT2]

I think your alignment settings are better than what Johnny ended up with. Now you just need to drive it hard enough to get a feel for the balance and tire wear to see if you need to adjust your settings from there.

[polopharm]

I will also post pictures of the ride height as set by the shop. It is lower then when I got it ( new springs were 1" shorter), and shop felt it provide best suspension travel and geometry. It does Not look like a "boy racer" But does look more aggressive.
Going out for a spin right now 11pm.

[polopharm]

Wow. Its driving great. The grainger valve is such a great deal. I was never getting close to 13 psi before.
Cornering feels great around our little outlaw autocross course.
We have a 3 mi completely straight private run way here, my speedo is not working , but I wonder what 5th gear at 6300 rpm, stock wheel size, equates to over the course of a mile?

[Reaper1]

What is the tire size on the rear of your car...a little math will tell you how fast that is. :)

BTW, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see any alignment specs.

[polopharm]

225 55 15

[Johnny]

I need to fix mine. Get into higher speeds and its unstable.

[168glhs1986]

Johnny does your front end lift at high speeds? One thing I did notice is i raised my front suspension to the high setting and now I have way too much strut travel. I will lower it and hopefully it won't be as bouncy and lift at speed

[GLHNSLHT2]

needs to be set up with some rake like an F1 car.

[Johnny]

It doesn't seem to get light in the front..at least not below 95 mph.

[Reaper1]

Wow. Its driving great. The grainger valve is such a great deal. I was never getting close to 13 psi before.
Cornering feels great around our little outlaw autocross course.
We have a 3 mi completely straight private run way here, my speedo is not working , but I wonder what 5th gear at 6300 rpm, stock wheel size, equates to over the course of a mile?


What is the tire size on the rear of your car...a little math will tell you how fast that is. :)

BTW, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see any alignment specs.


225 55 15

With overall gear ration = 2.73, tire circumference of 77.7", engine rpm = 6300....theoretical mph = 169.8mph.

[polopharm]

Well that would be very f-ing fast. It was butt clenching fast. I imagine there are many other variables to bring that number down.

[Rrider]

Speedo error %, tire slip %, actual tire size variation vs nominal size. That should be it. GPS it next time you go out there!

You would think these things would get a lot of mph out the the power they do have because of the small frontal area. Area pushing the wind matters a hell of a lot more than power once you get up around 150mph.

[Reaper1]

Air drag, static friction of the tires, wind direction and speed. I would figure they could probably hit 140...maybe 150 based on power and known top speeds of other TM's. I don't think you'll run it out of gear, though in stock form.

[Johnny]

Getting mine changed...will let you know if it helps.

[Rrider]

The way I read pholopharm's post I assumed he had already done 6300rpm in 5th!

I have a mid engine car here that does over 150.. with not too much more power than a GTP. Heavier and more frontal area than GTP too. I wouldn't be surprised if a grainger'd stock GTP could do 160.

[polopharm]

I did do that. Just not with a functional speedometer.

[Rrider]

Oh nice, that is how I read your post! Front view the gtp is SMALL, would not surprise me a bit if you were in the 160's with just the gvalve. Tach error % is probably the big thing, slip % I wouldn't think so much. Your posting about your run makes me curious what mph some of the modded ones like Johnny or Mike's can do..

[168glhs1986]

I would hold no faith in that conversion. If a passenger is brave enough to hold a speedo app while your driving snap a screen shot of the mph

[Reaper1]

I would hold no faith in that conversion. If a passenger is brave enough to hold a speedo app while your driving snap a screen shot of the mph

What conversion don't you have faith in? There certainly will be error, but I wouldn't figure it would be more than 10% total error, so even then on the minus side you are talking ~153mph.

As for GPS speedo's, well, as long as the refresh rate is high enough and you have a good satellite connection this should be pretty darn accurate, too. Of course a 3rd wheel, speed trap, or radar/laser would also all be pretty darn accurate as well.

[168glhs1986]

What conversion don't you have faith in? There certainly will be error, but I wouldn't figure it would be more than 10% total error, so even then on the minus side you are talking ~153mph.

As for GPS speedo's, well, as long as the refresh rate is high enough and you have a good satellite connection this should be pretty darn accurate, too. Of course a 3rd wheel, speed trap, or radar/laser would also all be pretty darn accurate as well.

Should say faith in mechanical accuracy of the GTP's systems. Bad electrical wiring and gauge inaccuracy is one of the GTP's strengths.

[Reaper1]

Should say faith in mechanical accuracy of the GTP's systems. Bad electrical wiring and gauge inaccuracy is one of the GTP's strengths.

:lol: Nice!

[GTP#44]

Should say faith in mechanical accuracy of the GTP's systems. Bad electrical wiring and gauge inaccuracy is one of the GTP's strengths.

When you dig a car out of storage after almost 15 plus years .
Those cars and rats had a very close relationship for a long time.
I worked on a boat once that rats ate the green wire everywhere and left the black and white ones alone.
Bad wiring, maybe or chewed thru wiring most likely ...either way wiring problems can be frustrating for sure.

[Reaper1]

When you dig a car out of storage after almost 15 plus years .
Those cars and rats had a very close relationship for a long time.
I worked on a boat once that rats ate the green wire everywhere and left the black and white ones alone.
Bad wiring, maybe or chewed thru wiring most likely ...either way wiring problems can be frustrating for sure.

I worked in the boating industry for 11 years. I totally agree that wiring problems SUCK!!!

[player1up]

Animal damage aside the worst thing about sitting for 15 years is the corrosion on ALL of the connections. My 73 Duster sat for about 3 years prior to my purchase and the connections were so bad you couldn't run the engine, lights, wipers and A/C at the same time. Voltage drop killed the ign system with all of that stuff running...
The lights on my GTP were sketchy until I pulled every last connector and cleaned them.
X2 wiring problems suck...never know when they'll leave you walking

[polopharm]

My new fuel pump is getting noisy I am gonna clean the inline filter today. I assume it has filled up with crap again.
I have been using an additive to counter act the ethanol issues. It is a Lucas product. Anyone have a recommended product.
Taking car to track day on Saturday.

[Reaper1]

I like to use the Sta-Bil Marine formula (blue instead of red). It has some more stuff in the additive pack that helps with in-tank corrosion and moisture build up after long storage times.

[polopharm]

I just cleaned out in line filter, now will go and replace the standard one. Enclosed is a picture of the fine gritty stuff inside the inline filter. This is after about 150 mi of driving from when we replaced and or cleaned every part of the fuel system. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/16/b3aace51cfb9d7207dc276992db7f52e.jpg

[wheming]

That could be from the inside of the metal fuel lines (supply and return) if they haven't been changed?

[Johnny]

I changed my filters about 5 times and finally settled into not doing this.

[polopharm]

I cleaned inline filter and replaced the canister one.
Much better. Here are a couple time/speed results from my new gps phone program.
So it was 5s to 80 driving easy http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/16/c032f3d548c992d44aa3e32684116863.jpg

[polopharm]

Sooo, broken radiator and blown freeze plug at track, 2-3 laps in.
No compression.
Engine is toast.
I am weighing options. 1- rebuild this one, 2 t3 swap 3 - most likely -get rid of the car. 4 - used good t 2 short block.
Whats cost approximately for a mildly performance enhanced rebuild / or a good used t 2 ?

Anyone looking for an engine-less gtp with all new suspension , brakes, interior etc?

[polopharm]

I just pulled the head, the head gasket blew, the head had actually lifted off the block. The pressure from the turbo etc built up enough pressure to blow the freeze plugs n radiator hose.
At least that's what I think happened.

[GTP#44]

I am totally crying for you..
I know how you feel….
When my 2012 Sprinter breaks down again and again I hate it and want to sell it right away.
After it is repaired and running you kind of forget the bad things it did to you..
My vote is to fix it .!!
When are you ever going to get to buy another one…never.
Once it is running again with a sweet new motor you will forget also.
Horses sometimes get injured, a little help from the vet and some love soon they are in top form again...

[Johnny]

Get another block and build it with forged pistons. OR rebuild yours with forged pistons.
Get it running again.

[168glhs1986]

Sorry to hear this Andy.

There will be a big market for your car less motor because these engines are relatively cheap to build and make go fast.

My 2 cents. I say keep it and GO ALL IN with a T3 by Slowe. He already has the template for the build and custom parts.

O sell it for $18k and make me an offer i cant refuse for mine :).

[Reaper1]

I am super sorry to hear about the problems! Wow. This car must have seen some hard times.

I don't think I could afford it, and I really don't want to sound like a vulture, but what would you ask for a blown engine GTP?

[Rrider]

Fix it! Try to look at it like this... this scenario unfortunate as it is, showcases the beauty of these! Exotic performance with about an unexotic as you can get powerplant.

I think 18k isn't far off the mark if he wanted to sell.

[polopharm]

My reason for acting like such a baby is as follows- I have a limited amount of free time in which to enjoy my cars, that is why I sold and am selling my race cars. I have the time from now thru late may to get in some track time , and I won't have the time again till October.
So when I got the car I was under the impression that it was mechanically in good condition.
As it stands now I have had the car inoperable for the vast majority of my ownership.
I do realize that after I replace every single mechanical part of the car it will likely run for more then 1 lap.
But it is just not what I was looking for when I bought the car. I have 3 other engine-less cars right now. I did not need another.
The plan for now is to send out the head to check it , plane it etc, and to see how the bottom end looks. I have not looked at the cylinders, bearings etc yet.
At that point I will decide how to carry on.

[168glhs1986]

Rider is spot on with the valuation.

So no hole in the block? Maybe only a blown head gasket?

[polopharm]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/21/89e8e60a9fa044916f2bb07fd0d3f51d.jpg
Car looks good , not sure if that was lap 1 or 2. There weren't any more laps after that.
Note my helmeted head tilted to the side...

[wheming]

You got it leaning over a bit too!
It does look good. I think its worth your investment to repair. Just build it reliable, so you can have years of enjoyment!

[168glhs1986]

Car looks great. What springs weights did you go with?

[player1up]

x2, rebuild it, Chrysler parts are a lot cheaper than Porsche parts or NSX parts.

How much boost did it see with the g-valve in it?

[polopharm]

I put in 450 springs at all 4 corners and double adjustable qa1 shocks. My car had 325 springs all around when I got it. I have a variety to try out.
Grainger was set for 13 psi


I am looking at an engine for sale in this forum, it's a rebuild '87, non common block etc 58 miles ....
Please weigh in with opinions.

[Reaper1]

Did you have the suspension set on the "lower" setting, that is supposed to be for racing and from what I've been able to gather it might also alter the leverage of the rockers on the pushrod-like suspension which in turn could make your 450 springs act more like 550's...but since I don't know much about the cars (learning with everyone else), I could be WAY off base! LOL

[polopharm]

It was set on lower setting and then used coil over adjustment to get ride height where we wanted it. It was lower at first but had too much tire rub in the back.

[Reaper1]

Ah...gotcha. :thumb:

[polopharm]

I just bought the engine for sale on this forum. A 2.2 with forged pistons n crank. Fwd performance cam. Ported head etc. Less then 100 miles on it. Build sheet included.
It was 900, so really cheaper then the price of the Pistons and head work alone.
Will rebuild mine as a spare. I hope not to need it anytime soon.

[player1up]

Did you have the suspension set on the "lower" setting, that is supposed to be for racing and from what I've been able to gather it might also alter the leverage of the rockers on the pushrod-like suspension which in turn could make your 450 springs act more like 550's...but since I don't know much about the cars (learning with everyone else), I could be WAY off base! LOL
When I got mine it had 350's installed on the lower setting and it was way too soft. I just put 500's on the rear of my car when I did the suspension rebuild. It's firm but not harsh and doesn't squat when I get into it now.
The 2 holes are only about an inch apart center to center and are almost vertically in line when the rocker is installed. That shouldn't cause enough leverage change to matter, but I guess the only true way to test would be to:
Set the car at a specific ride height and measure suspension drop with a given weight added to the car.
Move the coilover to the other mount hole, set ride height to the previously measured height, then measure suspension drop again to see if it's less/more/same as it was before....but that's a whackload of work just to"see" because you'd have to* do both sides so car angle , weight distribution is the same during both measurements.

* I said "you'd have to" because I'm not doing it any time soon :lol:

Now that I think about it, the car would almost have to be at the lower setting if you're running stiff springs because ( I'm only speculating ) the coilover would interfere with the inner tie rod end and zerk fitting to get the correct ride height at the higher rocker setting....
Anyone with a Consulier...go out and look at your rear coils...I'd bet that the paint is scrapped off the lower coil on the spring at least part way around ( if it was installed with the tie rods in )


I just bought the engine for sale on this forum. A 2.2 with forged pistons n crank. Fwd performance cam. Ported head etc. Less then 100 miles on it. Build sheet included.
It was 900, so really cheaper then the price of the Pistons and head work alone.
Will rebuild mine as a spare. I hope not to need it anytime soon.
I was looking at that engine and was going to say that for the work that's been done, you couldn't build one for that cheap, so sounds like a good purchase...even with shipping costs.

A blown head gasket at 13 psi is pretty surprising ( but then again it is 25 yrs old ) . I ran mine at 18 until the clutch let go.
I will also say that having talked with a few owners and mysterious reports that some cars seem faster than others, who knows what kind of mods ( damage ) were done in the last 25 yrs...
Aaron called me to ask if I had an in line potentiometer at the map signal wire on my car...because his did ( oh no, map clamp )

[168glhs1986]

I just bought the engine for sale on this forum. A 2.2 with forged pistons n crank. Fwd performance cam. Ported head etc. Less then 100 miles on it. Build sheet included.
It was 900, so really cheaper then the price of the Pistons and head work alone.
Will rebuild mine as a spare. I hope not to need it anytime soon.

Forward Motion cam and not FWD Performance cam ?

[polopharm]

I think it's forward motion 475 cam. Sorry I am new to the Mopar world. I was thinking about bumping up the turbo to the next size. The shop I use to tune has just moved and the dyno is not up yet, but was planning to do bigger injectors and a tune when dyno is working.
Can you tune/flash the ecu in these cars ?

[player1up]

How much boost will the new motor take? If it's in the 25-30 range you'll want to run a bigger turbo. You'll also want to upgrade the clutch.
I'm still kinda new to small mopars myself, but have a look at the FAQ section of turbo dodge, specifically the stage threads by the pope.

You'll need a Boost Button flashable SMEC if you want to modify your tune yourself. Tuning possibilities are endless.

MPTune: Programs your tune. Can flash engine light when knock is detected...Tune anything from timing, boost, fuel etc to other stuff like launch control and retard for NO2.
If you have a wideband it will emulate narrow band for standard ecu function.
MPScan: Logs and displays whatever you want about your ECU in real time. Anything from timing to inj pulse-width to knock voltage to standard stuff like boost, RPM and Speed.

If you have a wideband O2 sensor, it will log that too.

* I am not affiliated nor work for Boost button...I just have the flashable smec and it's freakin awesome.

I suppose you could go with a FWD performance stage whatever but you're stuck having them tune it.

[168glhs1986]

Unless you have supporting air flow a super 60 turbo or equivalent won't help an otherwise stock setup much. I say get the car running again and build your beast of a 8 valve or otherwise.

But if you want built everything plan on spending 12k plus.

Research Menegon for the head.

Slowe for your block and exhaust mani / header and assembly. You'll want a quaife LSD but good luck finding one for the 555. Then you'll need a clutch. Also let me say just because the shop sign says race doesn't mean they know the ins and outs of a 2.2

[polopharm]

My guy for sure does not do dodge stuff but is a very good tuner. And he is happy to learn and listen. He is reading this forum also.
He is a Honda factory sponsored racer too. He drives a rear engine all tube framed honda civic.

I am going to have slowe Speed build me a complete engine , but this deal gets me back in car much faster.

Thanks for the ecu/ tuning info !

[Chris W]

Unless you have supporting air flow a super 60 turbo or equivalent won't help an otherwise stock setup much. I say get the car running again and build your beast of a 8 valve or otherwise.

But if you want built everything plan on spending 12k plus.

Research Menegon for the head.

Slowe for your block and exhaust mani / header and assembly. You'll want a quaife LSD but good luck finding one for the 555. Then you'll need a clutch. Also let me say just because the shop sign says race doesn't mean they know the ins and outs of a 2.2

All great info. :thumb:

We can still get Quaife LSDs for the 555 though and supply a header, clutch, etc..... ;)

Chris-TU

[168glhs1986]

Yea the stock electronics are the weak point with not much tuning ability so not sure what he can do with it.

With my GLHS I got tired of it and went stand alone.

May eventually get there with the GTP if we want to make more power but for now Cindy's tune fires right up every time and is so nice around town.

[polopharm]

The engine is on route. It has a forward motion. 475 cam. I have been trying to figure out this number.
In a bmw for example a hotter but street able cam is a 292 , stock in a 4 cyl bmw is like 265 , what is the number 475?
In the Web site they call it a street able cam but I don't see any specs.

Is it worth going with a bigger turbo now or not ? If so what is the best bang for the buck?

[GLHS069]

it's the enforcer 1 cam. I didn't realize how bad their website is since I haven't been on it in a while. I'm sure people on here can give you the specs if Jessie can't. I might have the specs at home if need be.


The engine is on route. It has a forward motion. 475 cam. I have been trying to figure out this number.
In a bmw for example a hotter but street able cam is a 292 , stock in a 4 cyl bmw is like 265 , what is the number 475?
In the Web site they call it a street able cam but I don't see any specs.

Is it worth going with a bigger turbo now or not ? If so what is the best bang for the buck?

[168glhs1986]

The engine is on route. It has a forward motion. 475 cam. I have been trying to figure out this number.
In a bmw for example a hotter but street able cam is a 292 , stock in a 4 cyl bmw is like 265 , what is the number 475?
In the Web site they call it a street able cam but I don't see any specs.

Is it worth going with a bigger turbo now or not ? If so what is the best bang for the buck?

Great, sounds like your rebuilding her.

Cam talk is taboo in this forum sir :) Seriously thou, someone should have information on the cam. Maybe call Mike at Forward Motion so see what he thinks.

Also consider TU's new billet cams. I have a R2+ in my 8v GLHS and it's fantastic.

I would definitely upgrade the turbo and now is the time to grab a header and intake from Chris at TU. Throw a Garrett GT28 ball bearing turbo in there and your good to max out the power of that 8 valve with relatively quick spool as well.

While your at it, try to find a ported head and intake and just build the entire motor.

Just my 2 cents.

[2.216VTurbo]

The engine is on route. It has a forward motion. 475 cam. I have been trying to figure out this number.
In a bmw for example a hotter but street able cam is a 292 , stock in a 4 cyl bmw is like 265 , what is the number 475?
In the Web site they call it a street able cam but I don't see any specs.

Is it worth going with a bigger turbo now or not ? If so what is the best bang for the buck?

The BMW numbers are duration, the 475 number is lift. You really need BOTH numbers (and a graph of event timing) to do any meaningful comparisons.

[polopharm]

Great that's what I thought , I can't find that info on the 475 cam but will try n research it.

[polopharm]

Engine arrived yesterday. Good start putting it in today.

[wheming]

Nice!

[polopharm]

A bunch of delays , but progressing http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/15/52769801286703ffc8c5cf35e6ec2c57.jpg

[168glhs1986]

Do you use the same username on other forums as well? I think you posted in S14.net about a T5 trans?

Anyway, are you opening the motor or installing it as is? Can't wait to see it back on the track.

Mike

[polopharm]

Hey yeah. I was on s14 forum too.
I can't remember that post but I have a volvo 1800 with a lotus/ford 16v motor, t5 tranny , and ford 9" rear end. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/19/4b471e798bc8aac39e6c46e52ac54f75.jpg

[Reaper1]

That's HOT!!!

[player1up]

Never thought I say that about a Volvo, but I have to agree!

[Johnny]

That Volvo is my gals favorite sports car.

[polopharm]

Thanks guys. It is the one car my wife says we can't sell.
Its a lot of fun , it's almost of the opposite of the gtp, and before doing the drive train swap it was the opposite- all show and no go !