2.2 LW rods - good for 220hp?

[ShelGame]

I think I'm getting a new project car - '84 GLH (carb) that of course will be converted to turbo.

So, I already have a complete '87 2.2 T1 bottom end; with LW rods and a cast crank. The pistons are new 0.020" over Federal Moguls. New bearings, rings, etc. came with the engine in 'kit' form (it needs assembly). To keep it simple, I was thinking I would use this bottom end, one of my many spare 782 heads, Mitsu turbo (I seem to have many of those laying around), 1-pc intake, FFV injectors and a 2.5 BAR MAP; run it at 18psi with a water-2-air intercooler. Should be good for about 220hp on pump gas. And, very responsive. I won't be racing this car; it's strictly for street duty - SDAC meets and the like. This would be the first time I ever used anything non-common block.

Sooo, are the LW rods up to it? I will never push it past 18psi with this setup.

The only reason I ask is because they are already reconditioned (cleaned anyway) and mounted to the press-pin pistons. I do also have a set of '84 HD rods. But, they would need to be reconned themselves, and then mounted to the pistons. Another option is to take the caps off the LW rods and put them on the HD rods to make a press-pin T2 rod clone (found that one on the DDG). However, that's not the simple route, and 1 of the HD rods is iffy anyway. The small end is machined off-center by quite a bit.

I also do have several sets of true T2 rods. But, they're reserved for race car spares...

[BadAssPerformance]

The number I remember hearing for LW rods was 250hp but have heard of them breaking under that, and living above that.

From personal experience, my T2 CSX "clone" has a complete 87 Shelby Lancer engine complete with T1 bottom end. Full weight (minus spare tire and A/C) P-body trapping at 104.5mph (dead hook at line so no tire slippage to err the calculation) I came up with ~235whp... I cross my fingers every pass

Edit: on 100 octane no-lead race gas. stock garret 2.25" downpipe ~ 19psi in the 1/4 ... have seen spike to 27psi deep in 5th gear on highway (on CSX Stage II Cal so just throwing fuel at it, LOL)

[ajakeski]

Lightweight rods are forged, so they're not completly wimpy.
I've had a few engines with these rods and no issues yet.
I think they are most prone to fail in constant high RPM high boost use.
I would think these rods would be fine in the build you described.

[OmniLuvr]

i ran a very similar setup to the "cheap" route described (2.2, lw rods, swirl head, 1 pc), but stock intercooler, stock garret turbo with 3" swingvalve. i made 208 hp on the dyno @ 18psi with 5 gal of 91 oct and 2 gal of c16 (i was running mp stage 2 with a map clamp and thats why i ran the c16). daily drove that thing for over a year until the 525 let go, but i was just about to mount a front mount and turn up the boost...

good luck, i think youll be fine, plus 200 hp was pretty fun in an omni! my friends thought it would have made 250-300hp because of how "fast" it was, we were all suprised at the "low" hp # though...

[Johnny]

I autocrossed for years with them. 18 psi on race gas. GLHS. 260hp on the dyno.

[Ondonti]

Do they actually fail from RPMs or load? Bend or cap failure?

If they fail from excessive load, I would bet with a good tune they would last much longer against more clean horsepower than conventional wisdom from 15 years ago would tell you

[83scamp]

I'd run the rods out of the carbed motor in the GLH. The early rods were just as beefy as the TII rods(except the caps), they just weren't full floating... Like you said, you could run the LW caps on the early rods, and you've got a rod just as strong as the TII, just not bushed...

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

for 220 hp , "only" I'd use the light weight rods and the cast crank without question

strong enough , has no extra load of boost and lighter than related heavy duty parts that simply are not needed ...so being na , it will have any advantage towards achieveing higher rpm more quickly

[Reaper1]

Do they actually fail from RPMs or load? Bend or cap failure?

If they fail from excessive load, I would bet with a good tune they would last much longer against more clean horsepower than conventional wisdom from 15 years ago would tell you

It's my understanding that they fail mostly from high rpm. My one friend who does circle track had a few fail...of course high, constant rpm with sharp throttle drops (HUGE tension loads on the rods). He went to the TII rods and never looked back.

For what the OP is looking for, I think it probably would be OK.

[mopar-tech]

I have seen plenty fail at stock power levels, usally at the small end.

No thanks, I throw them all out. The early turbo rods are a much better choice.

[turboshadow]

I have made dozens of 20psi passes on my light weight rods with no issues.

[4 l-bodies]

LWR for the loss! Just heard of one fail on a 20k mile 86 GLHS. Windowed the block! So much for #'s matching (lol)! If you have the motor apart, I would never choose LWR. These days you have inexpensive choices of Carrillo K1 or Brain Crower "H" beam rods that are stronger and 100g lighter than a stock TII rod. TU had some amazing deals on rods recently.
Todd

[Pat]

I have seen plenty fail at stock power levels, usally at the small end.

No thanks, I throw them all out. The early turbo rods are a much better choice.


I too have seem them fail at the small end on bone stock motors.

[iTurbo]

I have had two LW rod failures. The first was just after I bought my Shelby Lancer in '99 and it threw a rod out of the blue while driving it home. I was cruising down I-90 and it shot the rod out of the block. I chalk that up to poor maintenance before I bought the car. It did come out of a barn in State College after all.

The second was another Shelby Lancer short block from #387 that I had transplanted into SL #127. It did not like the high RPM that I subjected it to while racing a VW Golf GTI. I was using 91 octane and +20 injectors and 18 psi out of the stock TII turbo at the time.


All in all, I think the LW rods would be fine for up to 250 HP as long as your A/F is good and you have sufficient octane fuel. (zero detonation)

[BadAssPerformance]

I have seen plenty fail at stock power levels, usally at the small end.

No thanks, I throw them all out. The early turbo rods are a much better choice.

True story on LW rods coming out of stock engines, a friend's low mile 87 GLHS had one come out just driving down the highway. I'm guessing there's a pretty wide production tolerance.

[ShelGame]

Well, now I'm torn. I'd just run the HD rods if one of them wasn't clearly mis-machined from the factory. The small end is so off-center I think it would break before a LW rod. Maybe I need to sacrifice a set of my spare T2 rods...

OK, follow-up questions: Is it possible to run 2.2 T1 pistons (made for press-pin rods) on a T2 rod? Just size the small end of the rod for the pins that fit the pistons? Or are new pins needed due to hardness? New pistons?

[shackwrrr]

I'm guessing there are no snap ring grooves in the piston so id say tge wouldn't work. If you're handy on a lathe I sure you coild machine some retainer buttons out of aluminum to hold the pin in.

[ShelGame]

I'm guessing there are no snap ring grooves in the piston so id say tge wouldn't work. If you're handy on a lathe I sure you coild machine some retainer buttons out of aluminum to hold the pin in.
Doh! You're right, no snap ring grooves.

[ShelGame]

Actually, may be there are snap ring grooves. I looked again and there are grooves in the pin bores. They're narrow and square, not for the round snap rings I'm used to. I'll have to see if I can find some snap rings that fit.

[GLHS60]

I'm guessing there are no snap ring grooves in the piston so id say tge wouldn't work. If you're handy on a lathe I sure you coild machine some retainer buttons out of aluminum to hold the pin in.

Funny you mention this as I was asking ASA about making some pin buttons awhile back but he thought not.
While I don't doubt those who have broken LW rods, I've never seen any, but I've seen two T-II rods busted.
The main point of catastrophic failure I've seen are wrist pin retaining C clips failing and the wrist pin gouging the block so the pin buttons seem like a natural to me. When wrist pin retaining clips of any type fail, the wrist pin becomes a battering ram against the cylinder as it can move back and forth.

Thanks
Randy

[mopar-tech]

While I don't doubt those who have broken LW rods, I've never seen any, but I've seen two T-II rods busted.


I would suspect because most of them have removed themselves from "the gene pool" by now.

It was very common to see 87-88 turbo I motors with failed rods. The stuff that is still about are the lucky ones who have not cashed out yet.

[ShelGame]

I'm sold. This is going to be a daily driver. I don't want to be building another motor for it any time soon. HD rods it is.

Unfortunately, here's my suspect HD rod. Check out the small end offset. I don't want to use this one, and I only have 4 of these total, including this one.

https://db.tt/T5iVzou7

On the other hand, the car I'm planning to get apparently comes with some T1 parts and I think he mentioned HD rods. So, maybe I can use those. I'll have to check them out when I get the car later this month.

Gary - on the DDG, you mention putting the LW rod caps on the HD rods to make a 'budget' T2 rod. Do you know if anyone has actually done that? If so, it might be a good way to salvage part of the LW rods. I think I have a set of ARP rod bolts somewhere, too.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

there's a reason I said go with the lw rods
simply , 5-6 motors , all 85 motors with spun rod bearings before the end of the warm driveing months
6 years in a row
all but the first one a full re & re
when I changed to lw rod 86 motors , still running at around a fair estimate of 200hp , no more spun rod bearings

I still even have an 87 TII motor , short block that's never needed taken apart , and never needed use either as my cast crank lw motors have always been more than enough to make 200 ish hp

always liked my 86 motors as a base for something mild ...

edit
but I should add there's a box of new BC rods downstairs waiting to go in my next motor

[ShelGame]

For sure, I would have the rods completely reconditioned. Including having the caps ground, and the big ends resized. I would never even try to simply install the LW caps. That's just asking for disaster.

[GLHS60]

There was a thread on swapping rod caps a while back, and while not impossible it's very unlikely swapped caps will be close enough to work. As an experiment, try swapping some caps around and you will see how close they match compared to a matched pair.
Matched rods will have perfect parting lines that you can't even feel with your finger, and be centered on the rod, and any mismatch is very hard to deal with.

If one had a very large number of spare caps, it probably would be possible to find a close enough match that normal resizing would work.

eg: If the cap sits slightly offset on the rod, left or right, the sides of the rod and cap must be ground so the sides are even and the big end becomes narrower. Sometimes mismatched caps will sit kitty corner, requiring even more side grinding.

Also and mainly, if the "hole" is not perfectly round, both parting surfaces on the rod and cap must be ground to make the hole smaller, then the hole has to be machined and honed to make it round again. If there is any misalignment, and there will be, this is not something many machinists want to touch or subject their equipment to and if the machining is successful you end up with a shorter connecting rod.

While I certainly can't speak for Gary, I think he was just thinking out loud when he mentioned this many years ago, not suggesting it would be a typical thing to do.


Anyone considering this could put a mismatched cap on a rod and ask their engine machinist to recondition it in order to get current facts in case there are recent developments.

Thanks
Randy

[Ondonti]

there's a reason I said go with the lw rods
simply , 5-6 motors , all 85 motors with spun rod bearings before the end of the warm driveing months
6 years in a row
all but the first one a full re & re
when I changed to lw rod 86 motors , still running at around a fair estimate of 200hp , no more spun rod bearings

I still even have an 87 TII motor , short block that's never needed taken apart , and never needed use either as my cast crank lw motors have always been more than enough to make 200 ish hp

always liked my 86 motors as a base for something mild ...

edit
but I should add there's a box of new BC rods downstairs waiting to go in my next motor

I would question the oil supply in stories like this.

[tryingbe]

https://db.tt/T5iVzou7



Would not use.

[mopar-tech]

Gary - on the DDG, you mention putting the LW rod caps on the HD rods to make a 'budget' T2 rod. Do you know if anyone has actually done that? If so, it might be a good way to salvage part of the LW rods. I think I have a set of ARP rod bolts somewhere, too.

I don't offhand, Turbo II rods always seemed avaliable so a non-issue.

A good machinist good answer the question.

[crusty shadow]

installing HD caps onto a LW rod seems like a waste of time considering a lot of the LW rod failures were due to the small end coming apart.

has the block you were going to use already been bored and honed for those pistons?

machining them for lock rings might cost more than a set of actual TII pistons.

[ShelGame]

installing HD caps onto a LW rod seems like a waste of time considering a lot of the LW rod failures were due to the small end coming apart.

has the block you were going to use already been bored and honed for those pistons?

machining them for lock rings might cost more than a set of actual TII pistons.

Actually, I was considering doing just the opposite - putting the LW caps onto the HD rods. The LW caps looks just like the T2 caps; where the HD rod caps are noticeably less 'beefy'.

Yes, the block is bored and honed for the pistons that came with it; 0.02" over Federal Mogul T1 style press-pin pistons. They have some grooves in the pin bores, but I'm not sure they're for lock rings. They're square bottom, and not very deep. Might just be for oil retention?

I'm going to wait and see what all comes with the car. Sounds like it comes with at least some spare engine parts, and probably some more HD rods. Maybe I can put together a decent set...

[mopar-tech]

Yes, the block is bored and honed for the pistons that came with it; 0.02" over Federal Mogul T1 style press-pin pistons. They have some grooves in the pin bores, but I'm not sure they're for lock rings. They're square bottom, and not very deep. Might just be for oil retention?

They did come with lock rings years ago, never used them of course since the application was press pin. I may actually have a set or two of them floating about.

[mopar-tech]

They did come with lock rings years ago, never used them of course since the application was press pin. I may actually have a set or two of them floating about.

I actually found the lock rings if you need them.

[ShelGame]

I actually found the lock rings if you need them.

Thanks, but the GLH I picked up came with a much nicer set of HD rods and ARP bolts (the original HD rods, apparently). I think I'm going to use those.

If I can get a machine shop to press the new pistons off the LW rods, that is. Is it possible to get the press pins out without hurting the pistons?

[Gaboon]

Maybe I had a horse shoe up my rear but way back when, I was pushing 318 hp and 378 ft lbs through the stock 86 T1 block.
I wasn't easy on it either, I miss shifted periodically but never had a rod failure. I actually still have those rods sitting on a shelf..
Sure, I went through a lot of pistons, I used to use OEM TII pistons as I found they could take a little more abuse.

[mopar-tech]

Is it possible to get the press pins out without hurting the pistons?

I have.

[iTurbo]

I have had my local machine shop swap press-fit pin pistons to and from rods before. They should have a fixture to do it without damaging them.

[trannybuster]

SOME good power mods here

[fixit]

wasn't the secret sauce to use the 2.4l turbo rods and forged pistons?

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f19/357639-2-2l-rods-pistons-2-4l.html

[turismolover22]

Yes, you can use a srt rod as long as you use their matching bearings and order pistons with the correct pin size. The stock srt rods are smaller than a stock td pin.

[iTurbo]

Yes, you can use a srt rod as long as you use their matching bearings and order pistons with the correct pin size. The stock srt rods are smaller than a stock td pin.

Yeah, the Neon SRT rods should have a .866 pin and the old school 2.2/2.5 should be .901 pin. For floating pins at least.