Power to the people!!!

[acannell]

Ive been shaping up what engine I'm going to get my Daytona to.

The idea is to create a good platform for developing parts that anyone could afford, as well as a tested and verified engine as a whole that shows those parts combined and what sort of power level can be expected with them, without anything that requires special fabrication skills or one-of-a-kind components.

Any guesses as to what power level will be reached?

Block: common block 0.030" over, 2.5L
Pistons: forged, copy of stock design, no special features

Head: G-head with mild sandpaper roll cleanup of ports and CC, with port matching to both manifolds.
Valves: stock size
Cam: off-the-shelf F4, R5, or similar
Springs: High quality for the cam (not stock)
4th cylinder coolant mod

Turbo:
Smallest hybrid kit from FWDP (they started selling it again I believe)
"Polished Turbonetics s-60 TII" compressor housing cut for 46 t04e wheel.
0.63" chrysler turbine housing with stage 1 wheel.

Intercooler:
4 core equivalent with 2.5" plumbing + H20 injection

Throttle: 58mm chrysler

Intake manifold: BMF

Exhaust manifold: port matched/smoothed/enlarged stock

Swingvalve: Design in progress. 3.5"+ OD, 4.5" CLR+ mandrel bend with separate wastegate path to somewhere on downpipe (not true external, but "divorced & internal")

Tune: custom, will be fine tuned without using a dyno, but with AFR datalogging, on the street. So whatever that can yield.

Boost: 3 bar map, maxed out boost limited by detonation only

Some kind of balancing to account for change in pistons from stock to forged. (unless there is a way to avoid this).

I think all of the above could be accomplished by anyone who plans to assemble their engine themselves and wouldnt require fabricating any special parts.

Not sure what kind of redline can be expected out of the box. That might make a big difference as far as peak power.

[Keito]

I'd say north of 300, 350 maybe but not sure with Cali pump gas

[acannell]

I'd say north of 300, 350 maybe but not sure with Cali pump gas

waaa! why bother then

I think its got to be more than that, I think it reached 300hp with stock intake and exhaust manifold, swirl head, no H20 Injection, and an off the shelf stage 5 tune, at 28psi. No port matching, nothing touched. Stock cam. Basing that off 9.025 1/8th in daytona with a passenger, on slicks. Bottle of 104+ octane booster in 1/4 tank of gas. But otherwise still 91 octane.

The cam, matching everything, porting out the exhaust manifold, fine-tuning the tune, BMF intake, and huge swingvalve has all gotta result in at least 20% more flow.

Hmm I guess that would be 360hp.

Another way to look at it is that 1/8th mile time was basically 7hp/psi, which is very close to stock isnt it? Just extended up to 28psi. If I can get that to 10hp/psi thats more like 390hp.

[cordes]

Why that turbo? I think that's going to be a real handicap.

[acannell]

Why that turbo? I think that's going to be a real handicap.

Just because its the one I have and I can't justify getting a bigger one. I think it can move enough air for 400hp+ especially with the big swingvalve cant it?

[cordes]

I see. I didn't realize that you had it laying around. Do you know for sure what compressor wheel is in there? They used a lot of them. My experience with the "half-assed-hybrid" was that of lag compared to a "real" hybrid turbo. Others have documented significantly higher compressor outlet temps than the same wheel in its native housing.

Many aspects of these motors have evolved in the past years so who knows what kinds of extra efficiency you could wring out of that turbo. I think the higher outlet temps combined with the stage one turbine wheel (to a much lesser extent) may hinder your ability to make 400HP. That's just based off of my limited experience, and in reference to what others have told me.

[acannell]

I see. I didn't realize that you had it laying around. Do you know for sure what compressor wheel is in there? They used a lot of them. My experience with the "half-assed-hybrid" was that of lag compared to a "real" hybrid turbo. Others have documented significantly higher compressor outlet temps than the same wheel in its native housing.

Many aspects of these motors have evolved in the past years so who knows what kinds of extra efficiency you could wring out of that turbo. I think the higher outlet temps combined with the stage one turbine wheel (to a much lesser extent) may hinder your ability to make 400HP. That's just based off of my limited experience, and in reference to what others have told me.

Makes sense to me.

Theres gotta be some people out there with that same turbo and a similar build...maybe I should look through the project logs

[OmniLuvr]

Why that turbo? I think that's going to be a real handicap.

this, as stated for the reasons above is what will hold you back. you might be able to source a holset turbo pretty cheap still? he341 could get you to about 400-450 i think, has no problems running high psi #'s and has the 4" exhaust outlet... i got a used low mileage one on craigslist for $200 and another for $250 (the $250 still had the clearcoat on it and the turbine housing wasnt even discolored).

either way, good luck, i think 350 shouldnt be a problem with those parts, maybe a little higher... but with the 2.5 youll prob have 400 tq :)

[acannell]

this, as stated for the reasons above is what will hold you back. you might be able to source a holset turbo pretty cheap still? he341 could get you to about 400-450 i think, has no problems running high psi #'s and has the 4" exhaust outlet... i got a used low mileage one on craigslist for $200 and another for $250 (the $250 still had the clearcoat on it and the turbine housing wasnt even discolored).

either way, good luck, i think 350 shouldnt be a problem with those parts, maybe a little higher... but with the 2.5 youll prob have 400 tq :)

wow that IS cheap..hmmm

Once I finish with the chrysler-style swingvalve product I may look into getting a holset and making something specific for it. Otherwise I'd probably just keep the chrysler style turbo so I can make stuff for it since so many people have it.

[Keito]

I cringe running 18 psi with Ohio 93 octane let alone more than that on Cali 91
Remember boost is a measurement of restriction, which you aren't going to have much of with those parts so
like others have stated that turbo is going to run out of steam rather quickly

[Shadow]

2.2 or 2.5? (Did I miss where you stated this?) IF 2.2 you will peak HP @ around 6600rpm and have power well into the mid 7000rpm range. You Should be able to make Over 380WHP with that set-up easy ;)

[acannell]

2.2 or 2.5? (Did I miss where you stated this?) IF 2.2 you will peak HP @ around 6600rpm and have power well into the mid 7000rpm range. You Should be able to make Over 380WHP with that set-up easy ;)

oops 2.5L

[Shadow]

oops 2.5L

Well, your intake will help Kill some of that low end and make for a Much more desirable P/B with the 2.5. With the F4 cam I would think your peak power will still be close to 6000rpm and seat of the pants will prob pull nicely past the 6000RPM territory?

You should still make well over 350WHP, but the stock valves and lack of significant head work will be the thing that robs you of a little power. Will still be TQ over HP for sure.

[OmniLuvr]

Once I finish with the chrysler-style swingvalve product I may look into getting a holset and making something specific for it. Otherwise I'd probably just keep the chrysler style turbo so I can make stuff for it since so many people have it.

gotcha!

but I did find an he351 for $450 in lake forest on craigslist today, you could prob talk him down ;) just type in holset...

[acannell]

gotcha!

but I did find an he351 for $450 in lake forest on craigslist today, you could prob talk him down ;) just type in holset...

what is the attraction to buying the more expensive turbo setups (I think mine was $1600) when you can get a holset for so cheap?

[thedon809]

what is the attraction to buying the more expensive turbo setups (I think mine was $1600) when you can get a holset for so cheap?I'm not even sure really. Holsets are like a godsend for us cheaper folks. They are dime a dozen, last a looooong time and are cheap.

[OmniLuvr]

they don't work for everyone, but they happen to work VERY well for us. the biggest deal is people "think" a diesel turbo wont work on their cars, when most of the holsets are very well suited to a mid range powered car (400-700hp depending on which holset).

ive got a collection right now...

[Ondonti]

I'm not even sure really. Holsets are like a godsend for us cheaper folks. They are dime a dozen, last a looooong time and are cheap.

Except the V band flange that is goofball size and people don't want to consistently sell parts for so you get stuck leaking exhaust.

I think they are large for what a lot of members want in drivability so they are not perfect. No matter how someone might claim they build boost at low rpms, another person will say its laggy even in a V6.

[Vigo]

Yeah, not every TM needs a 10-second capable turbo. The t3 'chassis' is pretty massively upgradable and in my mind has more than enough potential to suit the 8v top end flow limitations.

There are gains to be had with newer tech, but unless you have some kind of huge problem with journal bearings you can always stick a newer compressor wheel on the t3 with a range of compressor housing options/styles.

I really wish someone in the 'current' era would put up some definitive track times/dyno plots showing the capability of a stock or ported .48 turbine housing with a GOOD discharge housing (which acannell is working towards) and possibly a clipped stg1 wheel. I really feel like a swingvalve housing and compressor side upgrade is all that should be needed for 350hp if everything else is there to support it. I dont think a Holset makes sense on an 8v unless you get a good deal and can install it yourself cheap. It is way more of an 'automatic yes' on the TIII but i think 99% of 8v setups really just need a swingvalve- and compressor-upraded stock garrett.

[acannell]

Yeah, not every TM needs a 10-second capable turbo. The t3 'chassis' is pretty massively upgradable and in my mind has more than enough potential to suit the 8v top end flow limitations.

There are gains to be had with newer tech, but unless you have some kind of huge problem with journal bearings you can always stick a newer compressor wheel on the t3 with a range of compressor housing options/styles.

I really wish someone in the 'current' era would put up some definitive track times/dyno plots showing the capability of a stock or ported .48 turbine housing with a GOOD discharge housing (which acannell is working towards) and possibly a clipped stg1 wheel. I really feel like a swingvalve housing and compressor side upgrade is all that should be needed for 350hp if everything else is there to support it. I dont think a Holset makes sense on an 8v unless you get a good deal and can install it yourself cheap. It is way more of an 'automatic yes' on the TIII but i think 99% of 8v setups really just need a swingvalve- and compressor-upraded stock garrett.

As you mentioned I believe we are going to see just what the .63 (and I suppose therefore the 0.48) chrysler housing are capable of with basic die grinder work and off-the-shelf parts :eyebrows:

[OmniLuvr]

well what kind of power do you wanna make for testing?

basically the way I see it is the 46 trim compressor map is MAXED out at just below 400hp (around there at least).

you still running stock valves and only small amount of porting in the head (which could be ok) will need a "higher" psi to make the power.

so if you have to run higher psi and are out of the compressor housing efficiency range in, then you might not even get to the 400hp "goal", might not even make 380?

so its just the combo of 46 trim and small amount of head porting/valves to wont let you make more power. 50 trim would prob be perfect, 450ish capable, but it would need to be in the correct housing, and then you'd have to modify that to clear the head.

this is only why I brought up the "he-3xx" holset, the turbo "can" be had for cheap and more than capable and shouldn't have any lag problems especially on a 2.5. but you wont be able to test swingvalves with it, and as ondonti stated, the " 4" " downpipe can be a pain sometimes. im looking into this now, my friend does a lot of diesel aftermarket exhausts so il see what he can locate as far as take offs or aftermarket...

[acannell]

well what kind of power do you wanna make for testing?

basically the way I see it is the 46 trim compressor map is MAXED out at just below 400hp (around there at least).

you still running stock valves and only small amount of porting in the head (which could be ok) will need a "higher" psi to make the power.

so if you have to run higher psi and are out of the compressor housing efficiency range in, then you might not even get to the 400hp "goal", might not even make 380?

so its just the combo of 46 trim and small amount of head porting/valves to wont let you make more power. 50 trim would prob be perfect, 450ish capable, but it would need to be in the correct housing, and then you'd have to modify that to clear the head.

this is only why I brought up the "he-3xx" holset, the turbo "can" be had for cheap and more than capable and shouldn't have any lag problems especially on a 2.5. but you wont be able to test swingvalves with it, and as ondonti stated, the " 4" " downpipe can be a pain sometimes. im looking into this now, my friend does a lot of diesel aftermarket exhausts so il see what he can locate as far as take offs or aftermarket...

The goal of the testing is to see what kind of power can be made with certain parts that are off-the-shelf (including some new ones i.e. BMFi and huge swingvalve) and/or require very little custom work, so that anyone can do it.

Re the compressor map for the 46. I would really like to see the maps for my turbo, both the compressors and the turbine, but given all the weird combinations of housings and this compressor wheel, I'm not sure which, if any, maps there are for it. Isnt the case that someone simply took the 46 trim wheel from whatever turbo it was originally designed into by someone (Garrett? Mitsu? Turbonetics?) and then took some other unrelated housing (mine), machined it bigger, and put the wheel into that? And so no compressor map for that combo was ever made was it?

[OmniLuvr]

Isnt the case that someone simply took the 46 trim wheel from whatever turbo it was originally designed into by someone (Garrett? Mitsu? Turbonetics?) and then took some other unrelated housing (mine), machined it bigger, and put the wheel into that? And so no compressor map for that combo was ever made was it?

this very true, and if you have a turbonetics comp housing, then I believe it to be a super 60 made to accept the 46 trim (also a "garrett" wheel). Its gonna be tough call on what it can make, but if your happy with testing at a 380hp level, then that might be attainable. what will be nice is to see the different psi needed to make that with different combos of parts and same turbo (cam swap, swingvalve, downpipes, maybe intake, and?)

good luck!

[cordes]

You're correct. The E housing wheel was put in the TII cover and no real engineering work was done there.

[acannell]

You're correct. The E housing wheel was put in the TII cover and no real engineering work was done there.

rats I would have really liked to see a compressor map for it oh well

[glhs875]

waaa! why bother then

I think its got to be more than that, I think it reached 300hp with stock intake and exhaust manifold, swirl head, no H20 Injection, and an off the shelf stage 5 tune, at 28psi. No port matching, nothing touched. Stock cam. Basing that off 9.025 1/8th in daytona with a passenger, on slicks. Bottle of 104+ octane booster in 1/4 tank of gas. But otherwise still 91 octane.

The cam, matching everything, porting out the exhaust manifold, fine-tuning the tune, BMF intake, and huge swingvalve has all gotta result in at least 20% more flow.

Hmm I guess that would be 360hp.

Another way to look at it is that 1/8th mile time was basically 7hp/psi, which is very close to stock isnt it? Just extended up to 28psi. If I can get that to 10hp/psi thats more like 390hp.

What HP will the chosen turbo support? The turbo chosen will limit the max HP able to be made! How much air/cfm does a 46 to4e wheel move?

[Chris W]

How much air/cfm does a 46 to4e wheel move?

The drop down box here provides all the flow numbers for the Garrett T04E compressor wheels.

http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/hybrid-t3t4-trannybuster-style-turbochargers-p-139.html


Chris-TU

[Ondonti]

The goal of the testing is to see what kind of power can be made with certain parts that are off-the-shelf (including some new ones i.e. BMFi and huge swingvalve) and/or require very little custom work, so that anyone can do it.

Re the compressor map for the 46. I would really like to see the maps for my turbo, both the compressors and the turbine, but given all the weird combinations of housings and this compressor wheel, I'm not sure which, if any, maps there are for it. Isnt the case that someone simply took the 46 trim wheel from whatever turbo it was originally designed into by someone (Garrett? Mitsu? Turbonetics?) and then took some other unrelated housing (mine), machined it bigger, and put the wheel into that? And so no compressor map for that combo was ever made was it?

The smaller housing will mean you lose compression efficiency so the compressor discharge will be hotter. That means 28psi of hotter air will tax your intercooler setup harder and cause more exhaust backpressure if you are referencing 28psi at the intake manifold and not at the compressor housing (because your turbo will be actually creating much more than 28psi to overcome the pressure drop that is exaggerated by increased heat which means less density but more pressure).

I really don't know how anyone could compare a stage 1 T31 turbine wheel to a Holset. Its not comparable. There are a lot of members who will spend more for a smaller more responsive turbo. If you want 350hp than a smaller more responsive turbo would be more fun for most people to drive.

The hybrid small cover turbo is actually a good choice in my opinion because average people should be able to expect similar or better results when they step up the turbo quality or size.

[glhs875]

waaa! why bother then

I think its got to be more than that, I think it reached 300hp with stock intake and exhaust manifold, swirl head, no H20 Injection, and an off the shelf stage 5 tune, at 28psi. No port matching, nothing touched. Stock cam. Basing that off 9.025 1/8th in daytona with a passenger, on slicks. Bottle of 104+ octane booster in 1/4 tank of gas. But otherwise still 91 octane.

The cam, matching everything, porting out the exhaust manifold, fine-tuning the tune, BMF intake, and huge swingvalve has all gotta result in at least 20% more flow.

Hmm I guess that would be 360hp.

Another way to look at it is that 1/8th mile time was basically 7hp/psi, which is very close to stock isnt it? Just extended up to 28psi. If I can get that to 10hp/psi thats more like 390hp.


I built a .030 over 2.5 for a customer that had a port matched stock valve G-head w/stock cam, portmatched 1 piece intake, ported stock exhaust manifold, with a full 50 trim to4e compressor and .63 turbine (great spool up), with I think a 2.5" down pipe, 3" at the most. There are a few details I have forgotten over the years on the exact build. Anyway, the engine was in an 86 Charger. With the boost set 18 to 20 psi and on slicks,the car would run 8.20's in the 1/8th! The combo had a lot more potential left in it! I was surprised!

[acannell]

The drop down box here provides all the flow numbers for the Garrett T04E compressor wheels.

http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/hybrid-t3t4-trannybuster-style-turbochargers-p-139.html


Chris-TU

Thanks Chris. I think the question is, what happens to the map when those wheels are put in a housing different than what they were mapped in. I.e. the weird turbo I have

[acannell]

heres the turbo we've been talking about BTW..although I bought it in 2007 so Im not sure if FWDP is selling exactly the same thing, but I remember it being the "super46". Its only $800 not $1600 like I said. I think the $1600 was just the total of the order I placed which had a ton of other stuff:

http://www.fwdperformance.com/Store/Product.asp?IDCatalog=63&ProductID=449


t04 cover that is bigger than a t04b and a hair smaller than a t04e compressor section, with a super 46 comp. wheel and T3 F1 turbine wheel in a .63 chrys. housing. This combination offers the low inertia and fast boost response of the lightweight T3 turbine wheel and the high-airflow characteristics of the T04 compressor family. Supports up to 360 whp. Does not include swingvalve assembly or wastegate actuator and bracket)

[acannell]

The hybrid small cover turbo is actually a good choice in my opinion because average people should be able to expect similar or better results when they step up the turbo quality or size.

Yes this is another reason I'm okay with using this one for testing. I figured other peoples results can only get better, unless they go mitsu lol. Although at some point it will be come a limit when I cant get data from 450hp+. But a good starting point.

[Ondonti]

Thanks Chris. I think the question is, what happens to the map when those wheels are put in a housing different than what they were mapped in. I.e. the weird turbo I have

This is what happens.


The smaller housing will mean you lose compression efficiency so the compressor discharge will be hotter. That means 28psi of hotter air will tax your intercooler setup harder and cause more exhaust backpressure if you are referencing 28psi at the intake manifold and not at the compressor housing (because your turbo will be actually creating much more than 28psi to overcome the pressure drop that is exaggerated by increased heat which means less density but more pressure). Your shaft is having to spin faster than it should to create the same boost number and the air is less dense (hotter).
Also, since you are spinning the turbo faster to make the same power, you will run out of flow sooner. At some point you hit choke flow and this will move choke flow to the left as it knocks down all the efficiencies. Best comparison is going to be of real life cars. See what HP each version of compressor cover maxes out at and you can guess how much flow has been lost vs optimal compressor cover.
People still make decent power with small covers, there are a lot of platforms that use giant wheels in tiny compressor covers. The downside for them is that they don't realize the complete potential for their compressor wheels BUT they retain OEM packaging and fitment. Usually people are very happy with the tradeoff.

Here is a very extreme example used by Mitsubishi guys. I would rather have the proper cover. These compressor wheels should probably make 500whp but they enable a once 175whp turbo to make 350+whp without changing anything but internals. People love that kinda stuff and these sell much better than stuff that says "some hammering required." There was a TI-AL version made once to help offset some of the lag.

http://www.dynamicracing.com/image/cache/data/turbos/DSC00287-300x300.JPG

[shadow88]

heres the turbo we've been talking about BTW..although I bought it in 2007 so Im not sure if FWDP is selling exactly the same thing, but I remember it being the "super46". Its only $800 not $1600 like I said. I think the $1600 was just the total of the order I placed which had a ton of other stuff:

http://www.fwdperformance.com/Store/Product.asp?IDCatalog=63&ProductID=449


t04 cover that is bigger than a t04b and a hair smaller than a t04e compressor section, with a super 46 comp. wheel and T3 F1 turbine wheel in a .63 chrys. housing. This combination offers the low inertia and fast boost response of the lightweight T3 turbine wheel and the high-airflow characteristics of the T04 compressor family. Supports up to 360 whp. Does not include swingvalve assembly or wastegate actuator and bracket)

That's the turbo I chose, but with a .48 housing. As far as good power and response, I'm very happy with it.