Daytona Track Car Spindle & Hub Upgrade

[LaserDad]

I can't seem to find any info on this topic, so here goes. I am building an '87 Daytona for track day/street use. I have already replaced the entire front/rear suspension and brakes with the '93 setup, including the 11" slotted rotors. I have the same setup on my '86 Laser, which I just did a 2 day race school with, on 215-60R-15 tires. The coilovers are from Rich Bryant's Megan Racing setup, and the rear shocks are QA1's. My axles are from The Driveshaft Shop, and are heavier than stock.

The things I learned were:
1) The 11" brakes will quickly fade, if you drag them just a bit. They were OK if I stabbed them hard and got off quick.
2) I was also told that our Neon style front wheel bearings were only good for about 13 hours. In 24 hour races, Neons will rarely make it to the end, so other cars don't even worry about them being in front.
3) 215-60R-15 tires will fit into a Daytona w/o rubbing, if you have the '93 front suspension, but tend to bog the RPM's a bit. I bought mine used, because they were cheap and I didn't worry about burning them off.

This has made me start thinking about designing a larger brake/hub setup, for the Daytona. I will probably go with 17" wheels, which would allow me to use much larger rotors and 6 piston calipers. My question is, has anyone converted our standard type hub/bearing assy's to a more robust setup?

I know that there are quite a few FWD track cars, so something should be adaptable. I just don't want to go through all the research, if someone else has already done the work. Since I will be replacing the wheels, I am free to use pretty much any make and will probably even end up with more wheel choices.

I can get any axleshaft outer half mated to the standard inner half, so I am not limited by the shafts.

[francois]

Your 11'' are fading?
I understand they are on a G-Body but still!
And those tires...

What kind of pads are you using first and that size of tires is clearly not the type (since I doubt there is something sticky for that size) that will be on par for some aggressive pad compound.

No idea about the front bearing.

Are you running SS brake line?
Are you using Race oil brake?

Before going all out on a 6 pistons set-up, I would make sure you did the best with what you have before going to put $$.
That`s my point of view.

[Oggie Fisher]

The common upgrade is the 11" rotors. I've heard that Mike Stimac upgraded to Viper brakes, but I haven't seen any details.
https://m.flickr.com/photos/83425687@N00/2627152272/

[LaserDad]

My brake lines are stainless braided, the rotors were 11" drilled and slotted, the pads are Wearever Platinum ceramic, and the fluid was Wearever DOT3.
51629
To be fair, they faded when I dragged them, like when you are on the street. When I went back to just stabbing on them and getting right back off, they instantly came back and felt fine.
For the Daytona track day car, I plan to use ATE fluid, instead of DOT 3, and routing cooling hoses to the wheels. That alone should help a lot. I'm just looking into making something more robust.

[Vigo]

I was also told that our Neon style front wheel bearings were only good for about 13 hours. In 24 hour races, Neons will rarely make it to the end, so other cars don't even worry about them being in front.

Our wheel bearings aren't neon style, they are stronger. They are the same bearings used in Grand Caravans with GVWR of well over 4k lbs if not 5k, and an 86 daytona is not much heavier than a neon. Ask the team that races a Caravan in Lemons how many wheel bearings they are changing per race. I wouldnt be surprised if it were none.

[Reaper1]

How heavy is this car? How much power? How fast are you going at the longest front straight? How much are you using the car?

#1: 11" brake should NOT be fading if you are using RACE pads and RACE fluid. Those parts store "Wearever's" aren't going to cut it. I've run both Porterfield and Carbotech pads with good success. The Porterfields I ran were more of a street pad, but even with a little loss in initial bite they still hauled the car down. The Carbotech pads (I ran XP8's) NEVER faded! I was running ATE Ultra Blue (I don't know that you can get the blue stuff anymore because of a stupid DOT rule, but the amber should still be easily available). Running track days and such you are going to want to put racing fluid in the system.

#2: I've not heard of anybody having troubles with our front wheel bearings...ever (unless they were already toast)

As stated Mike Stimac upgraded to Viper brakes on his Daytona. I think I've heard of a few others using SRT-4 upgrade kits. The good thing about the '91-up uprights is that the caliper adapters bolt on. I'm 99% sure that you have to make your own caliper adapter to bolt on whatever calipers you want to run.

Also keep in mind that you might run into other issues if you put giant calipers up front. When I spoke with Mike at SDAC 18 I'm fairly sure he said he was running the stock 11" brake master cylinder with the Viper front brakes and 11" vented rears. He did say that he was looking into an aftermarket unit, however. I also know he runs an adjustable proportioning valve.

I think you need to really evaluate your braking system before going to upgrade things. It sounds like to me that you have barely scratched the surface when it comes to getting the most of the 11" system. I highly suggest running some brake ducts! I'd be willing to bet that running the right parts with the 11" system will net you a braking system that can handle anything you can put to it with your current car set-up. Mike even told me that the 11" brakes were really good and that he upgraded because the car had finally surpassed that level. Keep in mind that his car is a full road race car (1 Lap competitor and does time attack) that can be driven on the street, 400+hp, pretty darn light for a G-body, and he drives the living crap out of it!

I'm not saying don't upgrade...by all means go for it! :thumb: I have been looking at doing this for a long time to my car, but my build plans kind of dictate it. The only reason I would be looking at aftermarket brakes is for lighter components and by going with a larger disc some of the weight savings is nullified, and you can actually add weight, which sucks. I don't know for fact, but I think the Viper set-up is heavier than our stock stuff just because of size.

[LaserDad]

Thanks for the info. That's what I was hoping to hear, because that's how I originally planned to do the Daytona build, and already have the parts for. Obviously, the rest of the track guys know nothing about our FWD cars, except for the occasional Neons, so that is what they compare to us.

Does anyone have pics of how the ducted the front brakes?

[Oggie Fisher]

There are race centric vendors online that have generic brake ducting parts that should work. Haven't done it, just though about it.

[moparman76_69]

1G neon owners use Daytona 11" knuckles as an upgrade to larger wheel bearings. I'd pick up some Hawk pads from Rich and flush the fluid out with some Wilwood Hi-temp to help with the fade.

[Vigo]

Yes, user Rbryant has some race-oriented pads for the 11" brake setup that he sells pretty cheap if i remember correctly. He bought out all the stock of a manufacturer that was discontinuing production.

[Shadowv4l]

Dot 3 fluid is also shitty for high heat. I would recommend Dot 4 ATE fluid or the Motoul 600 or whatever its called. Just go on tire rack. They sell both. Also, buy some yellow stuff ebc brakes or something.

[bamman]

Years ago TCE Performance Products was making a 4 piston Wilwood and 13 inch rotor setup for our cars. It cost around $1200-$1300. I looked at their website just for fun and found they do make a lot of custom brakes, including a setup for the Consulier GTP:

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/xxx-customs/kits-46/

If you want to spend that much.

[Reaper1]

That's right! I remember that now. It was being advertised in Grassroots Motorsports for a little while.

[Oggie Fisher]

Looks like Wah's GTP.

[Reaper1]

It is his.

[Vigo]

For sale for 40k. :)

[acannell]

I would REALLY LIKE to machine custom calipers and rotors for our cars. Of course I have absolutely no idea how to design brake calipers but man would it be awesome. Just pick how many pistons you want and let the games begin.

If someone could just show me the rough idea..i.e. if there is any special geometries or if its all really just a straight wall hole with an oringed piston.

For instance..there must be a way to get this info:

1- is it known if there is a reconditioning method that involves boring out existing calipers, and does that method produce a straight walled hole
2- is there any solid information on oring material, groove dimensions/compression (could geometry from measuring existing designs..but not sure how to get oring material)
3- what materials should be used for what (aluminum, steel, cast?) (could see what aftermarket calipers are made of..arent some aluminum?)
4- how big would we really want assuming only wheel size is our limiting factor

[zin]

Breaks, or "safety equipment" in general are a "sticky wicket", most folks don't realize that Simpson, probably the best known and,"longest lived" names in the industry has been put out of business many times due to lawsuits. If not for his determination and legal smarts, the Simpson name would have never been known at all!

So, while I know no one here would instigate legal shenanigans, the wife of the guy they hit when something went wrong with their brakes almost certainly would, if they thought (or their lawyer thought) they'd get "justice".

That all said, the piston seals and how well they seal would be the most critical part to get right, on disc brakes, they keep fluid where it needs to stay,but also retract the piston that tiny amount needed to eliminate drag.

I'll take mine in 8-10 piston style with a radial mount please!

Mike

[acannell]

Breaks, or "safety equipment" in general are a "sticky wicket", most folks don't realize that Simpson, probably the best known and,"longest lived" names in the industry has been put out of business many times due to lawsuits. If not for his determination and legal smarts, the Simpson name would have never been known at all!

So, while I know no one here would instigate legal shenanigans, the wife of the guy they hit when something went wrong with their brakes almost certainly would, if they thought (or their lawyer thought) they'd get "justice".

That all said, the piston seals and how well they seal would be the most critical part to get right, on disc brakes, they keep fluid where it needs to stay,but also retract the piston that tiny amount needed to eliminate drag.

I'll take mine in 8-10 piston style with a radial mount please!

Mike

first person with a caliper and piston sitting on the bench to take some measurements with a caliper wins!

BTW if someone wanted to pony up the bucks I'm sure all this info could be had from ASE papers and/or patents (free).

[Reaper1]

Just look at rebuild kits for brake calipers.

[wallace]

How about instead of a new caliper a new adapter to run an existing setup on our caliper mounts?

[acannell]

How about instead of a new caliper a new adapter to run an existing setup on our caliper mounts?

that sounds a little more realistic lol

[Reaper1]

That certainly is a better idea, but I thought the point of this was the challenge machining something complex, but if it is to actually produce a product useful to a lot of our community, then yes, a good caliper adapter that can be used in conjunction with the '91-up uprights (due to the improved suspension geometry and the bolt-in wheel bearing) would be the way to go. I personally want to use the front brakes from a Viper. I know it's been done already (Mike Stimac has them on his Daytona), so maybe that's something that could be looked at.

[acannell]

That certainly is a better idea, but I thought the point of this was the challenge machining something complex, but if it is to actually produce a product useful to a lot of our community, then yes, a good caliper adapter that can be used in conjunction with the '91-up uprights (due to the improved suspension geometry and the bolt-in wheel bearing) would be the way to go. I personally want to use the front brakes from a Viper. I know it's been done already (Mike Stimac has them on his Daytona), so maybe that's something that could be looked at.

I'm up for either! I have quite a few challenging machining projects in the wings so not everything has to be one. Plus I've always found my brakes in the Daytona to be quite good..it might be more fun if they were crap

[knownenemy]

I know that the SRT-4 brakes were a snap to use in the "L" body.
I'd be willing to bet there'd be a similar adaptation of the SRT-4 parts for the "G".

For the "L" body, I used the SRT-4 knuckles, calipers, rotors, and also SRT-4 Strut casings.
I built coilovers with the casings, but that's not "necessary".
The SRT-4 struts work in our cars with slight mods to the towers.
The best thing is that the SRT-4 still uses the same ball joint as our cars, MOOG K7147.
And the hub splines are also the same!
So, the knuckle bolts right in. :thumb:

[shackwrrr]

I would REALLY LIKE to machine custom calipers and rotors for our cars. Of course I have absolutely no idea how to design brake calipers but man would it be awesome. Just pick how many pistons you want and let the games begin.

If someone could just show me the rough idea..i.e. if there is any special geometries or if its all really just a straight wall hole with an oringed piston.

For instance..there must be a way to get this info:

1- is it known if there is a reconditioning method that involves boring out existing calipers, and does that method produce a straight walled hole
2- is there any solid information on oring material, groove dimensions/compression (could geometry from measuring existing designs..but not sure how to get oring material)
3- what materials should be used for what (aluminum, steel, cast?) (could see what aftermarket calipers are made of..arent some aluminum?)
4- how big would we really want assuming only wheel size is our limiting factor

There is some geometry involved in making sure the square cut seal works properly. In a caliper the square cut seal is what pulls the piston back into the bore a slight amount reducing drag. There is a stepped bore with a grove involved.

[knownenemy]

I would REALLY LIKE to machine custom calipers and rotors for our cars. Of course I have absolutely no idea how to design brake calipers but man would it be awesome. Just pick how many pistons you want and let the games begin.

If someone could just show me the rough idea..i.e. if there is any special geometries or if its all really just a straight wall hole with an oringed piston.

For instance..there must be a way to get this info:

1- is it known if there is a reconditioning method that involves boring out existing calipers, and does that method produce a straight walled hole
2- is there any solid information on oring material, groove dimensions/compression (could geometry from measuring existing designs..but not sure how to get oring material)
3- what materials should be used for what (aluminum, steel, cast?) (could see what aftermarket calipers are made of..arent some aluminum?)
4- how big would we really want assuming only wheel size is our limiting factor
Interesting information here Asa;

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/monobloc-vs-2pc-calipers

Some of your questions are answered in great detail. :D

[acannell]

Interesting information here Asa;

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/monobloc-vs-2pc-calipers

Some of your questions are answered in great detail. :D

that was fun to read..

I think he kinda drifts off though at the end..talking about how the material strength goes way down in aluminum with heat...what would seem to be more relevant is how material stiffness goes down with heat, not tensile strength, unless he's suggesting the calipers out there are being bent out of shape, but he doesnt make a conclusion at all from the data he mentions??

[zin]

Calipers can definitely get warped with heat and pressure, something they can see ALOT of in certain road race cars.

This is also on of the reasons OEMs like iron/steel, less liability and much better durability in the hands of consumers ... just heavy. Weight reduction has been popular lately as a means of gaining CAFE scores, so we are seeing them a little more, and I think it will continue, but begrudgingly.

Mike

[francois]

Usually, the aluminum caliper are the ''fixed'' type but oh wait a minute!
My CSRT4 has aluminum front caliper and it's the ''slider'' type...huge difference in the weight area.

Viper brakes must be awesome but are they a complet swap, meaning the disk too?
That must bring thinks close to what, at least 13'' of disk. Goodbuy 15''!!

The project sounds like big fun but keep in mind that most of us, here, could benefits from real ''race'' compound and decent tires before planning to go all out on multi pistons calipers.
A great percentage of drivers here runs stock coils that are cut and run oem type shocks.
So that said, everything comes with a price.
I'll spend $180 on front pads before spending $1k for 4-6 pistons calipers.
But...that's me.

[Reaper1]

I know that the SRT-4 brakes were a snap to use in the "L" body.
I'd be willing to bet there'd be a similar adaptation of the SRT-4 parts for the "G".

For the "L" body, I used the SRT-4 knuckles, calipers, rotors, and also SRT-4 Strut casings.
I built coilovers with the casings, but that's not "necessary".
The SRT-4 struts work in our cars with slight mods to the towers.
The best thing is that the SRT-4 still uses the same ball joint as our cars, MOOG K7147.
And the hub splines are also the same!
So, the knuckle bolts right in. :thumb:

Oh for sure the SRT-4 stuff can be made to work for the K-based stuff. If I'm not mistaken that is what the one company did that offered aftermarket brakes for our cars...they just had a custom adapter made to work with our uprights.


Usually, the aluminum caliper are the ''fixed'' type but oh wait a minute!
My CSRT4 has aluminum front caliper and it's the ''slider'' type...huge difference in the weight area.

Viper brakes must be awesome but are they a complet swap, meaning the disk too?
That must bring thinks close to what, at least 13'' of disk. Goodbuy 15''!!

The project sounds like big fun but keep in mind that most of us, here, could benefits from real ''race'' compound and decent tires before planning to go all out on multi pistons calipers.
A great percentage of drivers here runs stock coils that are cut and run oem type shocks.
So that said, everything comes with a price.
I'll spend $180 on front pads before spending $1k for 4-6 pistons calipers.
But...that's me.

Yes, Viper brakes require the larger disc (I don't know what the minimum diameter is with those calipers, but I'm going to guess 12"). The good thing is that the disc themselves are "standard" (floating discs can use different hats). You just need to have the correct hat, which the SRT-4 hat will work on our cars. I will admit that I don't know if the different thickness discs can be used on the same hats, so that might be a hold-up, but still nothing that can't be overcome.

Yes, most people here could benefit quite a bit by stepping up their choice of brake pads and fluid along with good tires. However, it's still a "cool factor" thing to have to big brakes. I also just want to get away from the floating caliper. That set-up sucks.

[acannell]

Calipers can definitely get warped with heat and pressure, something they can see ALOT of in certain road race cars.

This is also on of the reasons OEMs like iron/steel, less liability and much better durability in the hands of consumers ... just heavy. Weight reduction has been popular lately as a means of gaining CAFE scores, so we are seeing them a little more, and I think it will continue, but begrudgingly.

Mike

I meant more going beyond the material yield strength, which is much lower due to heat, which it seems he was suggesting but never came right out and said.

- - - Updated - - -

okay so lets build up a fantasy design..if we cant come up with some kind of "dream" design that would be mind blowing, then this probably wont be fun enough to draw up because in the end nobody cares lol

my mill is 3 axis with very minor 4th axis capabilities but most likely will not be able to machine piston bores from inside the caliper..so a 2 piece design may be all I can do.or possible a 1 piece design but boring from the outside and using plugs, like he described in that article. also, I can only do billet, no forgings obviously. is all this something you'd take home to mom

[zin]

I'll suggest a caliper adapter that would except a variety of aftermarket calipers, say Wilwood and/or Brembo? I think a lot of us would be pretty jazzed to be able to "slap on" a set of calipers from an SRT8 Challenger, etc.

The Ford GT has some pretty bad-azz calipers and they are bolt on axially, which is kind of cool. http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/RenderIllustration.ashx?id=287396468&f=3&n=4G7Z2B121AA

Someone was messing around with some Audi Discs that were larger diameter, but the swept area wasn't that great because the caliper/pad wasn't very wide and was still the single piston...

Lots of possibilities!

Mike

[Reaper1]

I agree...if a sort of "universal" caliper adapter could be made that would accept different calipers, either OEM or aftermarket, would be the ticket. I could be totally wrong, but having seen these types of parts before I don't think it will be all the difficult and a 3-axis would certainly work fine. Heck, they could probably be made inexpensively enough that you could probably get a decent amount of interest in them.

[cordes]

DOT3 brake fluid isn't helping anything as previously mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_5.1