super 60's?

[shadow88]

Looking for personal input from users of the super 60 turbo. Lag time, max boost, driveablility, that kind of stuff.

I'm pretty sure mine is cooked, I'll be checking friday at work how the rest of the engine is doing. On the way home, I pinned it and it billowed smoke to fill the hiway:( I wanted inputs before going shopping. Thanks.

[tryingbe]

Little laggier than TII garrett. Less low end torque but more mid and upper end power.

[slasky]

On my 2.5 I don't really notice the lag that much. It spools slower than the stock t2 and comes on smoother.

[shadow88]

Should have mentioned, it's a 2.2l.
But as of right now, it's a moot point. The smoke is caused by a very low compression #1 piston. Leakdown test showed 20% holding, compression test showed 50 psi.
I now have plans for the weekend.:(

Another question..Are they all .63 exhaust housings?

[John B]

All of the genuine S60s are .63 A/R housings. It's a good choice for a 2.2 unless your going for all out power at high boost. My experience has been that it spools just as well as the stock Garret, but my ported head may affect that.

[MiniMopar]

There are also two different compressor sides that are given the same name. TU calls them the "S60" or "60-trim" and then the genuine "Turbonetics Super 60", which is the one Chrysler sold along with the .63 A/R housings.

I had this all figured out, but now the details are a little fuzzy. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong. The difference is in the compressor wheel. The former is rated at 34ppm and is described as more of a "pressure" wheel. It's good if you have an otherwise stock intake (IC, manifold, head, etc). The latter is rated at 35ppm and is described as more of a "flow" wheel. It's good if you have a modded intake (big IC, ported intake, ported head).

This is where my knowledge or turbos gets weak, but the 60-trim can make more pressure with less flow, but the trade-off is more heat in the air. The Super 60 will flow more air at lower temps, but will have a hard time being efficient if the intake doesn't flow that well.

[Chris W]

You are on the right track Russ. The Turbonetics Super 60 (35 lb/min compressor wheel) was part of the "Super 60 Package" offered by Mopar Performance. Also included in the MP "Package" was the performance cylinder head with the oversized intake and exhaust valves. MP combined both of these products in the package because their flow characteristics complimented eachother.

We also offer a 60-trim turbo which we once named "S-60". It came with your choice of a .48 or .63 chrysler turbine housing and was marketed as a 60-trim (34 lb/min compressor wheel.) We decided to change the name to TU-60 a couple years back to alleviate any confusion between the 2 wheels.

Chris-TU

[JuXsA]

Turbonetics is having problems sending out their turbos, so if you were going to get a Super 60 you would likely be better off either getting a S60 or a geting a T04E 40 trim or 46 trim with a stg 1 .63 turbine housing

[shadow88]

I must admit my knowledge of turbos and what the numbers mean is pretty weak.

What's the difference in the exhaust housings? I *thought* .48 spooled faster but didn't have the flow characteristics or a .63 housing. Trade-off is slower spool. I'll end up calling Chris when the money is there to go shopping.

Since I use a tbi header, space is at a premium and I don't think anything but a t3 family of turbos will fit. I had to use a custom made swingvalve and I'm only sure that it'll fit on a t3 family turbo. I can't even fit a large can wastegate actuator.

[MiniMopar]

What's the difference in the exhaust housings? I *thought* .48 spooled faster but didn't have the flow characteristics or a .63 housing. Trade-off is slower spool. I'll end up calling Chris when the money is there to go shopping.

That's pretty much it. I wrote this page almost 8 years ago, so its pretty dated (what's a hybrid?) I may not have had all my facts straight (man I'm getting old). However, I think it describes A/R ratios accurately.

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/perf/turboinfo.html#buzz

In any case, the issue is usually not as simple as that. If you put a .63 A/R housing on an other wise stock car, yes it will be quite laggy. However, you will also probably use a more efficient compresor side, which means it doesn't take as much turbine shaft speed to produce the same volume of air. This will offset a little of the lag. Also, if you just make the engine breath better in general (big exhaust, ported exhaust manifold or header, big IC, ported intake, ported head. etc), you will reduce lag even more because the rest of the system will "catch up" to the bigger housing.

Hopefully someone a bit more clueful will chime in, but there are a good number of turbo selection threads already if you do a search.

[shadow88]

Great read ^
thanks.

So, it seems you put the boost limit at 21psi, THEN there's a need for the .63 housing? I'm not sure of the boost level right now, but I should know in a weeks time. After another dyno run and alot of playing with injector sizes and fuel pressure.

[stampederunner]

I have a true super 60 in my daytona and I love it. My car is also a 2.2 with an auto and I would say that the spool up time is very acceptable. I asked many people for advice before I bought my turbo. I wanted a streetable turbo that could support 300 h.p. everyone advised me to get a S60.

[shadow88]

I have a true super 60 in my daytona and I love it. My car is also a 2.2 with an auto and I would say that the spool up time is very acceptable. I asked many people for advice before I bought my turbo. I wanted a streetable turbo that could support 300 h.p. everyone advised me to get a S60.


What boost levels do the super 60 users use?

[stampederunner]

Right now I run 17 psi on pump gas. If I ever get the urge to put race gas in it I'm sure the turbo would be able to push atleast 25 psi. I know I probably don't need race gas, but I dont have the time for an engine swap right now so I play it safe. I should also add that I do have the supporting fuel mods to boost past 14.7 psi (+40s, 3 bar cal, blah blah blah)

[GLHNSLHT2]

I run a true S60 on my 2.5 powered daytona. It has a ported exhaust manny, 3" exhaust, cummins ic, stock head and intake. It spools up faster than the MP plus turbo (stock turbo with .63 housing) did. Rolling on it in 5th gear on the freeway I'm making full boost at 2500rpms. It hits hard and fast. I love it. It's a great street turbo. I know it has more in it but I need to tweak the fuel and spark curves in still. I run it at 14psi right now.

Why run a TBI header if you're only going to stick to a T3 turbo? You're really choking it off. you need to figure out how to shove a hybrid or a GT on there. Otherwise you might as well go back to the stock manifold.

[shadow88]

I run a true S60 on my 2.5 powered daytona. It has a ported exhaust manny, 3" exhaust, cummins ic, stock head and intake. It spools up faster than the MP plus turbo (stock turbo with .63 housing) did. Rolling on it in 5th gear on the freeway I'm making full boost at 2500rpms. It hits hard and fast. I love it. It's a great street turbo. I know it has more in it but I need to tweak the fuel and spark curves in still. I run it at 14psi right now.

Why run a TBI header if you're only going to stick to a T3 turbo? You're really choking it off. you need to figure out how to shove a hybrid or a GT on there. Otherwise you might as well go back to the stock manifold.

It was my understanding that the "super 60" turbo was based on the t3 family of garrett turbos. And since it's available in the oddball chrysler flange it will bolt directly to my header.

There's no chance I'll remove this manifold for a stock ported one, it just performs too well for me. Perhaps a TU header, but I'm very happy with my new manifolds.
I plan on 22+psi and the super 60 can do it without sacrificing alot of driveability. This is still my daily driver.

[JuXsA]

I should be getting my T04E 40trim tomarrow. I will let you know how the installation goes. I was originaly going to go with a Super 60 but turbonetics was having problems so TU agreed to build me a hybrid instead. Way I figure the T04E wheels are better then the T3 wheels and the 40 trim is only a little bigger then the Super 60 so lag (as long as you use a stg1 turbine wheel) should about the same if not better since its a more efficiant wheel in a better housing.

[shadow88]

I should be getting my T04E 40trim tomarrow. I will let you know how the installation goes. I was originaly going to go with a Super 60 but turbonetics was having problems so TU agreed to build me a hybrid instead. Way I figure the T04E wheels are better then the T3 wheels and the 40 trim is only a little bigger then the Super 60 so lag (as long as you use a stg1 turbine wheel) should about the same if not better since its a more efficiant wheel in a better housing.


Could you please take a few side-by-side pictures of that new turbo with the old stocker? As many angles and measurements would be awesome.
And if I ever meet you, I'll totally buy you a beer :nod:

[moparzrule]

I was running 22 PSI daily with my super 70, but the S70 is substantially larger than an S60. The problem with the S60 I think is the exducer is too small, it's still the same size and the stock T2 exducer. The S70 has a 10mm larger exducer and 2mm bigger yet inducer than the S60. I had full boost around 2700-2800 RPM, however most of that is attributed to my ported G head. I was running the .48 housing with the stock swirl head, swapped to the ported G and .63 housing and had faster spoolup than before and WAY more power.
Anyhow, the S60 is plenty capable of 20-25 PSI daily. I ran 22 daily on my S70, easily capable of 30 PSI too.

[89ShelbyGuy]

Heres a pic for a year ago when i got a "S-60" turbo from TU..but as chris put it, its now a TU-60

and the old driping one is a TII stocker....blod to death..lol
http://www.daytonashelby.com/turbovsturbo.JPG

[Russ Jerome]

Looking for personal input from users of the super 60 turbo. Lag time, max boost, driveablility, that kind of stuff.

.

Zero lag, spools like a stock t-II Garret. Should have been on our cars
from the production line (2.2 or 2.5, auto or manual). Never pushed it
like a true race car but ran countless 12.7s on street tires and pump
gas. 17psi was my happy spot with no better ET at 23psi. Ran the
same S-60 (.63 AR Turbonetics unit) in both 2.2 and 2.5, various FD
auto ratios from 2.60-3.20 . Just a great driving turbo all day, just a
little small for racing.

[shadow88]

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/th_bwahahafits.jpg (http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/bwahahafits.jpg)
Click on it and it grows.


This was the first mock-up of the tbi header. I ended up buggering this weld job and re-did another with a little less firewall clearance. It's not so much the wheel's size as the wastegate actuator clearance. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to find a way around that problem. Super 60's at 23 psi sound very good. I may push mine as far as 25 ish.

Has anyone gone beyond that boost level with either turbo?

[moparzrule]

Gary donovan ran his stock T2 turbo up to 28 PSI, not very efficiently of course but it didn't blow up.

[shadow88]

My stock t2 will not exceed 22 psi as it stands.

[moparzrule]

My stock t2 will not exceed 22 psi as it stands.

Thats the wastegate can, not the turbo doing that.
Could be the type of boost controller you are running too. One time a boost controller i was running only let me go too about 18 psi. Swapped to a stiffer spring and controlled it up to 25 psi and still had more to go. Did you try disconnecting the wastegate line completely? Is so, next try shimming the can with 2 small washers about 1/8'' thick in between the flange of the can and the compressor housing. It's pretty difficult to do with it on the car, but it can be done.

[shadow88]

Thats the wastegate can, not the turbo doing that.
Could be the type of boost controller you are running too. One time a boost controller i was running only let me go too about 18 psi. Swapped to a stiffer spring and controlled it up to 25 psi and still had more to go. Did you try disconnecting the wastegate line completely? Is so, next try shimming the can with 2 small washers about 1/8'' thick in between the flange of the can and the compressor housing. It's pretty difficult to do with it on the car, but it can be done.


Nope, It's not any of those things. I think I just made the intake tract just too damn efficient.:thumb:
I run an adjustable bleed inside the car. 1 small turn and the pressure signal that should go to the actuator leaks inside. There's already 3 washers holding the actuator to the bracket. Have you ever used a super 60 or hybrid turbo? And yes, I've run with the actuator line off. No real difference.

[moparzrule]

If you are running a stock 8V head (or even a ported one for the sake of argument) it's not very efficient. The intake tract isn't just your intercooler, plumbing, and the intake manifold. The ports in the head need to flow too.
Do you have the small wastegate can or the large?
I had a super 70 turbo on my car.

[shadow88]

small can. That's all that fits. Back on topic. how do you find your super 70?

[moparzrule]

Well then thats obviously your problem!

Turbo's Unleashed. A super 60 has a 48mm inducer, 60mm exducer. The super 70 (which is the stock wheel from the buick Grand National) has a 50/70mm.

[cordes]

small can. That's all that fits. Back on topic. how do you find your super 70?

I ran a small can shimmed out really far, and a very stiff spring in my G-vlave and I could only manage 22PSI with the occasional spike to 24. This was on a FM E2 turbo, so I would agree that it is the can.

[shadow88]

O.K. then. I suppose that brings up 2 more questions.
1st what's the can diameter of the large can actuator? I have one in the garage, but don't know which one it is.

2nd, how did you find the super 70 - driveablility wise? Or any other input from hybrid or super 60 users.

Forgot to mention, I dynoed 262 whp and 337 wtq. @21 psi

[moparzrule]

The small can only came on 87-88 T2 cars, it's something like 1.5-2'' diameter. There was 2 versions of the large can, a T2 version on the garrett's 89-up (besides T3 and VNT's) and the 85-87 T1 cars. One version bolts to the front of the compressor housings (The T2 one), and the T1 bolts to the back of the housing and there are no provisions on the T1 turbo's to bolt a T2 can to the T1 housing. The large can is like 2.5-3'' or so diameter.
The super 70 I ran with the .48 turbine housing and stock swirl head at first, maybe 100-200 RPM slower spoolup than a stock T2 turbo. Swapped to a ported G head and .63 housing at the same time, no difference in spoolup in fact maybe faster. But that is attributed to the head porting, a great job by Mike Sanders at turbodynamx (before he started screwing people apparently).
Nice numbers shadow88, what were your mods? My mods are in my sig, I dyno'd 269 WHP/317 trq at 19 PSI. If you have a stock head those are sweet numbers!

[tryingbe]

Hm... I wonder how much my GLH will dyno at 10psi.

[turbovanman²]

My stock t2 will not exceed 22 psi as it stands.


Yep, I was running the TIII turbo on my 8valve, slightly ported swirl, ported mani, 3inch exhaust, stock one piece intake, 52mm tb and with the wastegate locked, it would only reach 22-24 psi.

[Russ Jerome]

Thats the wastegate can, not the turbo doing that.
.

Yup, with a large can shimmed tight a stock t-2 will spike upwards
of 28/29psi during shifts.........never planned on it but have seen it
myself. A S-60 will sustain (be it ineffecient) those levels with the
correct control system in place.

Never seen my s-60 turbo turn better ETs anywhere beyond 24
psi, just seamed to be my cars weak point beyond that. For that
matter my street tired and driven car turned 12.7s at 17psi and
24psi, head must have been its bottleneck.

[Russ Jerome]

Yep, I was running the TIII turbo on my 8valve, slightly ported swirl, ported mani, 3inch exhaust, stock one piece intake, 52mm tb and with the wastegate locked, it would only reach 22-24 psi.

????Locked???? If I wire tied my wastegate shut and beat my car, only
saw 24 psi I would be capping and testing for leaks or taking a better
look at my over system and/or tuning. Timing, fuel and cam timing have
a fair bit to do with air flow and boost at full load. Can I drive your car :)

[turbovanman²]

????Locked???? If I wire tied my wastegate shut and beat my car, only
saw 24 psi I would be capping and testing for leaks or taking a better
look at my over system and/or tuning. Timing, fuel and cam timing have
a fair bit to do with air flow and boost at full load. Can I drive your car :)


Yep, vacuum pump keeping the wastegate closed. Its a VAN Russ, :p This was also thru a small IC and stock cal at 14 deg initial.

[shadow88]

Yup, with a large can shimmed tight a stock t-2 will spike upwards
of 28/29psi during shifts.........never planned on it but have seen it
myself. A S-60 will sustain (be it ineffecient) those levels with the
correct control system in place.

Never seen my s-60 turbo turn better ETs anywhere beyond 24
psi, just seamed to be my cars weak point beyond that. For that
matter my street tired and driven car turned 12.7s at 17psi and
24psi, head must have been its bottleneck.


OK then, large wastgate and firewall mods it is. :thumb:
Mods to my car.
cold air intake run on top of the srt-4 intercooler.
58mm tb with my custom intake manifold.
ported swirl head with standard size back-cut valves.
tbi header with home made 2 1/2 " swingvalve.
2 1/2 " exhaust with cut-out before the cat. (yes it has a cat)
3 bar cal from Dean Stillie with +40's.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3234

this is the manifold link.

I ran a 13.41 @108 with this set up and the exhaust cut-out removed.