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wheming
03-17-2014, 09:24 AM
Ugh.
Way to ruin a potentially good Consulier project.

http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=331152100561

contraption22
03-17-2014, 10:08 AM
Pretty cool! I think the VQ is probably one of the best sounding V6's out there. There is a good deal of aftermarket support for them too. Not a bad choice.

168glhs1986
03-17-2014, 11:09 AM
They can twin turbo a V6 and get 450 hp, lol. Guess they don't know about the turbo mopar 2.2 achieving 450 HP with less investment and weight.

Great Parts car for someone in need. Wait does it have a windshield?

It looks like it's only $40,000 away from being a $15,000 car.

Copying the description for future reference:

The Consuliers won so many races including the 'One Lap of America' three times, that the cars were banned from most events. That's how good these cars were. The cars had swoopy looks, but some details (the square headlights in particular) often led people to say they were ugly. Thus only 82 were ever built. This is my second Consulier, and I can say definitively that the cars are absolutely spectacular to drive (I have a 2004 Porsche Turbo, and the Consulier handled much better!!!).

I have extensively updated the look of the car with Mosler MT900s headlight buckets, round taillights (replacing the station-wagon lights that came standard) and doing a few other things to make this into a potentially amazing-looking (and outrageously fast) supercar.

When completed, this car will go toe-to-toe with a Radical track car. This is the latest/best Consulier GTP (later became Mosler) with all-composite body and chassis with chromoly subframes to carry the suspension and engine. The car has been modified extensively with both radiators and intercoolers for a single turbo that will bring the power to 450hp.

The power-to-weight ratio will be better than a Lamborghini Aventador after the turbo is installed. This package doesn't include the turbo; only the fitted intercooler for the turbo.

The engine is a 2004 Nissan 3.5L making 300hp with a transverse 6-speed transmission. The engine has tubular headers (brand new) and modified intake to bring air in from the intercooler. There is a rear mounted radiator that sits right next to the rear-mounted intercooler. All of this custom work was done to the highest level.

The chassis and shocks are all BRAND NEW. This Consulier has never been driven. The car currently doesn't have a VIN number on it (this is the last Consulier that the factory built and it wasn't completed), so it will have to be titled as a kit car when it is completed.

Rrider
03-17-2014, 11:34 AM
Looks like they started with a bare chassis, didn't ruin a completed car. I'm sure its a decent motor but VQ's sound like poop.

I want to see it with the MT900 lights on there! I'm glad to see it didnt get trashed, is this one of the ones out back in the pile?

wheming
03-17-2014, 01:50 PM
It sounds like one of the "never completed" cars that was for sale as a partial. And sounds like one of the ones I was talking to Mike about before he was replaced.

Reaper1
03-17-2014, 02:52 PM
I don't think it ruined the car, really. If it's completed correctly it will probably be pretty darn awesome!

The VQ engines are pretty light. I think I remember finding out that a fully dressed one (accessories and all) is around 330#. I know it's lighter than a LS1 (which I keep hearing from those fans is "SOOO light!").

As far as the way it sounds...I know that's a personal taste, but I think with the right exhaust it has one of the best exhaust notes out there. Especially for an engine that comes in cars that mere mortals can afford.

As pointed out, there's pretty good aftermarket support for them, too. Yes, our engines can make good power and we do have support (from basically 3 places), but they are outdated, and lets be honest, when you start to make that much power from our engines they can be temperamental. If I had to choose an engine to stick into a car like this, the VQ is very high on the list of potentials. It's actually the engine I would like to swap into a DeLorean someday (it's already been done successfully).

85boostbox
03-17-2014, 02:58 PM
And fully dressed (all accessories) ls1 is around 460 lbs. Pretty light considering it is a V8.

Paul

Pat
03-17-2014, 03:41 PM
I like it!

Johnny
03-17-2014, 03:56 PM
Looks like a series 2.

168glhs1986
03-17-2014, 05:51 PM
I like it!

2015 challenge car !

ForzaV12
03-17-2014, 08:46 PM
American car needs American engine, IMO. Some variant of the original Mopar or a nice LS.

bfarroo
03-17-2014, 09:14 PM
Looks like a lot of work to complete with all the missing parts. I'd still love to pick one up but can't really dig any deeper into the pockets this year already :(. Plus no title and wisconsin is a ----- about kit car titles although since there was a consulier GTP built you could probably do it. I talked with a guy last year that has a Factory Five GTM kit car and couldn't get it titled in Wisconsin because the car doesn't represent an actual car. What that matters I don't know but he has it titled through another state and a PO box or something like that.

Millerman340
03-17-2014, 09:45 PM
Watching the price as a guide on a project such as this. .

contraption22
03-18-2014, 12:06 PM
I don't think it ruined the car, really. If it's completed correctly it will probably be pretty darn awesome!

The VQ engines are pretty light. I think I remember finding out that a fully dressed one (accessories and all) is around 330#. I know it's lighter than a LS1 (which I keep hearing from those fans is "SOOO light!").

As far as the way it sounds...I know that's a personal taste, but I think with the right exhaust it has one of the best exhaust notes out there. Especially for an engine that comes in cars that mere mortals can afford.

As pointed out, there's pretty good aftermarket support for them, too. Yes, our engines can make good power and we do have support (from basically 3 places), but they are outdated, and lets be honest, when you start to make that much power from our engines they can be temperamental. If I had to choose an engine to stick into a car like this, the VQ is very high on the list of potentials. It's actually the engine I would like to swap into a DeLorean someday (it's already been done successfully).

Add to that... I would think all other things being equal, for a track car, I would rather have a 330hp nearly stock V6 than a 330hp 4 cylinder turbo, just from a perspective of wider powerband and possible turbo heat soak over extended sessions.

168glhs1986
03-18-2014, 12:31 PM
Yea but what's the torque on that v6? Turbo Mopar at 330 hp gets you say....360 torque. That's nice to have. Not all tracks are Daytona or LeMans

Reaper1
03-18-2014, 02:02 PM
Torque for that engine is 250-275ftlb (maybe higher since they are specing it at 330hp) and flat as a pancake from 3000rpm to redline (seems to be around 7k from what I can find). For a car like this that should be plenty to have a lot of fun and be pretty darn quick. I understand the stance that it's an import engine because most of us are primarily fans of US domestic stuff. However I think it's naive to dismiss it just because of that.

We wouldn't be on this forum if we didn't like turbo's. I like them. We all know that used correctly they can be reliable and make a lot of power and have a good powerband. I just don't think that saying an engine is the wrong tool for the job simply based on where it was designed or that it's not turbocharged or how it sounds is "fair" (for lack of a better way to put it at the moment).

Rrider
03-18-2014, 02:22 PM
I'm going n/a K24! *ducks*

168glhs1986
03-18-2014, 02:30 PM
This begs the question....did Warren make a Consulier or Mosler without a turbo ? Off the top of my head I can't recall one.

Johnny
03-18-2014, 02:36 PM
I'm going n/a K24!
I have no idea what that is…………..

- - - Updated - - -

If I was to do a V6…it would be the one from the new Mopars, the 3.6 with 290HP in stock form.
It has two big Cat's after the exhaust manifolds….a perfect replacement for those would be two turbo's.
That would scream or break, but it would be fun to try!

- - - Updated - - -

This 3.6 brings my Avenger 0 to 60 in 6.1 which weighs 1000 pounds more than a Consulier.
So in stock form without turbos it should do pretty well.

Rrider
03-18-2014, 05:02 PM
I had also been thinking a fwd pentastar 3.6 would be pretty sweet.. Similar to that VQ but more 'appropriate.'

The K motor is a honda. Back when the first atoms were available in the US, they had K power. I thought about one, IIRC I specced out a stripper at under $35k.

Reaper1
03-18-2014, 11:22 PM
This begs the question....did Warren make a Consulier or Mosler without a turbo ? Off the top of my head I can't recall one.

Raptor was N/A V8, M900S could be had N/A.


I have no idea what that is…………..

- - - Updated - - -

If I was to do a V6…it would be the one from the new Mopars, the 3.6 with 290HP in stock form.
It has two big Cat's after the exhaust manifolds….a perfect replacement for those would be two turbo's.
That would scream or break, but it would be fun to try!

- - - Updated - - -

This 3.6 brings my Avenger 0 to 60 in 6.1 which weighs 1000 pounds more than a Consulier.
So in stock form without turbos it should do pretty well.

Not bashing those MOPAR engines at all. They are great engines in their own right, but they do not have a manual gearbox to back them, and very little (if any) aftermarket support. I can almost guaranty that they weigh more than the VQ35. I'm still failing to see why this combination is bad. There could be better ones, but thus far the options suggested have some shortcoming when compared against each other.

Ondonti
03-19-2014, 01:14 AM
I had also been thinking a fwd pentastar 3.6 would be pretty sweet.. Similar to that VQ but more 'appropriate.'

The K motor is a honda. Back when the first atoms were available in the US, they had K power. I thought about one, IIRC I specced out a stripper at under $35k.

hmm, I was thinking ka24 n/a instead!

but really, I don't see any proof that the engine or transmission is really fitted to the car so to me its just a way to try to trick somebody to pay more then they should. Nobody wants a 3.5 vq except maxima guys and nobody wants a maxima FWD transmission except...Maxima guys who broke another one. I would put in a VQ before a new chrysler v6 but I know they are not strong motors from the factory. Pencil rods. Aftermarket, yes, lots of stuff available.

contraption22
03-19-2014, 09:50 AM
Is there a manual trans available that mates to the pentastar?

Johnny
03-19-2014, 11:37 AM
Yes, jeep uses one, but it is front engine, rear drive.
The 6 speed trans auto in the Avenger can be shifted like a stick. Heck, new super cars use the same idea.
They call it paddle shifting.

- - - Updated - - -


Current bid:
Wonder if it sells…. $1,136.00 Reserve not met

168glhs1986
03-19-2014, 11:54 AM
I wouldn't think it would sell unless reserve is $2000. But from the sellers own description it appears as it he thinks it's a gold mine

Rrider
03-19-2014, 12:46 PM
I was thinking $2k too..

The cheapskate in me would love a skyactiv 6spd manual in one of these.. does 30/40 in the 3000 pound mazda.

Reaper1
03-19-2014, 01:37 PM
hmm, I was thinking ka24 n/a instead!

but really, I don't see any proof that the engine or transmission is really fitted to the car so to me its just a way to try to trick somebody to pay more then they should. Nobody wants a 3.5 vq except maxima guys and nobody wants a maxima FWD transmission except...Maxima guys who broke another one. I would put in a VQ before a new chrysler v6 but I know they are not strong motors from the factory. Pencil rods. Aftermarket, yes, lots of stuff available.

LOL Any time I see "K" with "24" I automatically think about the old Nissan engine! I keep forgetting about the newer Honda "K" engines.

Brent, just curious here, why wouldn't people want the VQ35? Yes, the VQ37 is a better engine (more power, stronger, lighter, more revs), but if you can get the VQ35 for cheaper and still attain nearly the same goal...I dunno, that's a tough call. Depends on budget and what somebody would be willing to compromise on. I might have missed something with the VQ35, but from my research (which admittedly needs some more attention) I haven't found any reason to discount that engine for performance or swaps.

As for the Maxima tranny...well, yeah, I don't know squat! LOL I would think that by sticking a stock drivetrain in a car that is half the weight of what it came out of that the life expectancy when driven hard would be much improved. Of course there are always the exceptions....

Millerman340
03-19-2014, 04:50 PM
made a bid to watch the price, I do not believe it Would have the following that it does now if it wasn't for the turbo Mopar guys

168glhs1986
03-19-2014, 05:25 PM
Be careful doing that. That's how I ( and eventually Chris) came to own the last white one on eBay :)

Millerman340
03-19-2014, 06:04 PM
there is no doubt that I am going to own one, the question is which one.

168glhs1986
03-19-2014, 06:06 PM
there is no doubt that I am going to own one, the question is which one.

One will pop up. I personally would never buy a incomplete Consulier. Johnny's was close to finished with only a few parts missing and ask him how difficult it's been. Dave Scarab bought a real project and I'm waiting till he parts it so I can buy the windshield :) haha

cordes
03-19-2014, 08:17 PM
I wouldn't go with a V6 for the simple weight factor.

Ondonti
03-19-2014, 08:28 PM
LOL Any time I see "K" with "24" I automatically think about the old Nissan engine! I keep forgetting about the newer Honda "K" engines.

Brent, just curious here, why wouldn't people want the VQ35? Yes, the VQ37 is a better engine (more power, stronger, lighter, more revs), but if you can get the VQ35 for cheaper and still attain nearly the same goal...I dunno, that's a tough call. Depends on budget and what somebody would be willing to compromise on. I might have missed something with the VQ35, but from my research (which admittedly needs some more attention) I haven't found any reason to discount that engine for performance or swaps.

As for the Maxima tranny...well, yeah, I don't know squat! LOL I would think that by sticking a stock drivetrain in a car that is half the weight of what it came out of that the life expectancy when driven hard would be much improved. Of course there are always the exceptions....
Well I am just poking fun at the VQ's but the 3.5 is a desirable swap for 3.0 vq30 maximas. There are probably so many 350z's out there getting wrecked that there are more then enough engines out there to support the few who want one.

You definitely need to upgrade the internals.
6g72 vs vq30 rods
BTW I don't know where the idea came that these engines are light weight. I would say it weighed as much as an assembled Iron block 6g72.
BTW, timing chain FTL. The engine below did handle 17psi boost for quite awhile so people do need to understand that cast pistons are the real fuse in these and any of the good import 6's but if you have a good tune it will survive. That means spending money on tuning solutions rather then running it like a mobile scrap heap. The above cast piston would also probably have survived if it had larger ring gaps.
I think there are a lot of other creative motors to install. Probably no room but a horizontally opposed engine sounds like a fun way to lower the center of gravity.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Nissan/VQ30%20after%2017psi%20boost/IMG_6124.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Nissan/VQ30%20after%2017psi%20boost/IMG_6124.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Nissan/VQ30%20after%2017psi%20boost/IMG_6125.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Nissan/VQ30%20after%2017psi%20boost/IMG_6125.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Nissan/VQ30%20after%2017psi%20boost/IMG_6105.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Nissan/VQ30%20after%2017psi%20boost/IMG_6105.jpg.html)

Reaper1
03-20-2014, 07:30 PM
Yay for interwebz making things confusing! Which engines are you comparing for weight? I fully admit that I've really never looked all that hard at overall engine weights, but from the little bit I did look at, 330# for a fully dressed V6 is pretty darn good. I really don't have a baseline beyong that I know the PRV 2.8/3.0 (DeLorean/Eagle Premier engine) is around that same weight and the LS1 is heavier.

Just ballparking for a TM 2.2: block=100, crank=45(forged), other internals=10, dressed head(with intake, exhaust, and turbo)=60, external accessories(A/C, PS, hoses, pullies...)=40. Right there you are touching 250 and I'm probably off on the ligher side.

Millerman340
03-24-2014, 09:44 PM
I've been talking to the owner of this car outside of eBay. He has worked on a few Consuliers &MT900 .... you would be surprised if you really knew who it is. I was not a fan of the engine but doing some research myself it would make a Nice sounding & fast car when finished...

168glhs1986
03-24-2014, 10:11 PM
Has worked on a few eh? So he is a car builder in Florida? Are you under oath not to divulge names? Im going with First name Eugene or Joel. But not Eugene Joel :)

Do tell

Millerman340
03-24-2014, 11:02 PM
James Wagner. ..

Reaper1
03-25-2014, 12:33 AM
Has worked on a few eh? So he is a car builder in Florida? Are you under oath not to divulge names? Im going with First name Eugene or Joel. But not Eugene Joel :)

Do tell

Either one of those came to my mind as well...guess we were both off! LOL

Ondonti
03-25-2014, 08:26 PM
I've been talking to the owner of this car outside of eBay. He has worked on a few Consuliers &MT900 .... you would be surprised if you really knew who it is. I was not a fan of the engine but doing some research myself it would make a Nice sounding & fast car when finished...

Well unless you want to get the car from him for a deal off ebay, tell him to put in some pictures of the mounting points and installation of the engine/transmission because his Ad seems very hoaxy.

player1up
03-26-2014, 08:50 AM
Wasn't James the head engineer for Mosler back in the day? Thought there was some falling out between him and Warren...
If it really is him, I'd be REALLY interested in what's been done to the car and the reasoning behind it.

Millerman340
03-26-2014, 02:23 PM
Warren made a similar car with the Northstar v8, called the Constar

Reaper1
03-27-2014, 03:55 PM
Warren made a similar car with the Northstar v8, called the Constar

Nope, it was the Twinstar. I remember seeing an article on it and an advertisement in some magazine for it.

Millerman340
03-27-2014, 04:23 PM
no, it was a silver consulier with a Northstar engine

Reaper1
03-29-2014, 09:33 PM
no, it was a silver consulier with a Northstar engine

Admittedly, that's the first I've heard of that. It must not be very well known, then.

Millerman340
03-29-2014, 09:43 PM
it is not well known, the person that told me told me not to mention It. I did not think it was that big of Secret

Johnny
03-29-2014, 10:40 PM
Wonder where it is now.

Millerman340
03-30-2014, 02:29 AM
Warren still has it, it is at one of his houses from what I was told. He also has one of the Raptor 2000's that is a street car.. I'll see my friend at the Daytona show Sunday & I'll ask more about them.

jacob mosler
04-04-2014, 04:07 PM
the constar is a series 2 consuiler with a northstar v8 and is still owned by warren

he still has the raptor 2000. its on the rebuild list.

the consulier project with the funny headlights was something todd worked on out back of the shop in his "spare time." it was never a mosler design, much like the "mt900 raptor gtr ( or whatever he calls it )"

Millerman340
04-04-2014, 08:34 PM
Well it look like he does decent work then....

cacrawfo
05-16-2014, 01:24 PM
Well it look like he does decent work then....


I'll post some pictures, you can all decide for yourselves......

First order of business will be pulling the VQ35 out and fixing the engine/suspension subframe where it was modified to clear the oil pan. I'm thinking a different direction on the drivetrain. To obtain an Illinois specially constructed vehicle title, I will need to show lineage/ownership of all major parts, so the engine needs to be documented. Leaning towards something Audi like 1.9T, V6 or V8, as they are packaged nicely for a mid engined car and well supported in the aftermarket. Even a 1.8T can make a reliable 350HP with a few parts.

The MT900 lights gotta go. Gonna make a body template to carry around to some possible headlight donors to see how well they might integrate into the body lines.... Would love to think that Volvo VNL lights might fit...

Don't know much about these cars yet, so might attract some laughs with this one:

looking for a front glass, front hood, rear hatch. I say this knowing full well I may just have to make them.

Millerman340
05-16-2014, 01:35 PM
I guess u bought it then?

Rrider
05-16-2014, 02:23 PM
I think the curves on VNL lights are too steep. Don't use a 1.8/1.9. How much is an audi 4.2L and which transmissions did those get?

I have a windshield I'd sell but I'm not sure if its the right one.

cacrawfo
05-16-2014, 02:47 PM
Rider,
I'm thinking you may be right one the VNL lights, looking at a couple options. The MT900 stuff that is in there now is so hacked, and no recess for a lexan cover so its gotta come out.

The nice thing about the Audi stuff for a mid engine is the trans are longitudinal, and can be hacked and swapped to make a 4WD a 2WD, etc. Available in 5 speed, 6 speed. In the states, I'm not sure if the 4.2 ever had a manual behind it. The 2.7 liter twin turbo is an option as well. I've got a complete car with that drivetrain and a 6 speed 4wd, but not sure I wanna scrap the car just for the drivetrain.

Did they have different front glass for different years?

Rrider
05-16-2014, 02:54 PM
On the web I've seen a manual 4.2 audi swap in a boxster of all things. I'm not sure what transmission it was though.

Just from looking at photographs I know there is a curved corner windshield and a sharp corner windshield. Who knows, maybe more than one type of each. I have a curved corner one.

cordes
05-16-2014, 06:14 PM
Rider,
I'm thinking you may be right one the VNL lights, looking at a couple options. The MT900 stuff that is in there now is so hacked, and no recess for a lexan cover so its gotta come out.

The nice thing about the Audi stuff for a mid engine is the trans are longitudinal, and can be hacked and swapped to make a 4WD a 2WD, etc. Available in 5 speed, 6 speed. In the states, I'm not sure if the 4.2 ever had a manual behind it. The 2.7 liter twin turbo is an option as well. I've got a complete car with that drivetrain and a 6 speed 4wd, but not sure I wanna scrap the car just for the drivetrain.

Did they have different front glass for different years?

Welcome to the site. Shoot me a PM if you would be interested in meeting up. Unless I'm mistaken we're the closest TM members to one another on here.