exposing masi knowledge

[joelzip]

I would like to open a thread for common masi knowledge to take some of the mysteries out of this engine and possibly make it more affordable at the same time. I am building my first turbo dodge motor and masi it is. I have a ton of questions myself but will be posting pictures of some custom pieces as well. Its going to be a slow build, at this point I have the head back from Rick, the block and rotating assembly is with Dave Kofell still haven't heard from them yet. I made custom 4 bolt main caps for the common block and I will be using the fully counter weighted masi crank with narrowed h beam rods / bearings and je forged pistons. I have a masi exhaust flange that I would like to build a tubular manifold for with external wastegate. I have some questions,

-what spark plugs should I use with this head with 20 psi boost / water injection?
-Does anyone have a tune for an sbec computer that works well?
-What fuel rail options do I have?, I saw a billet unit on a factory motor once, I believe it was for a t1 motor?
-Are the cam seals rare? I see them on rock auto but dont know if they are correct?

[Vigo]

Is there some kind of problem with the factory fuel rail?

[joelzip]

Yes the factory shrader valve was broken off and then someone brazed a new one on and damaged the fuel injector bore in the vise. At that point I said screw it. When I was at Ricks house we held a t1 rail up to the masi intake and the spread looked correct, I could weld legs on it to hold it in place need be, just thought someone would chime in with a performance replacement as I'm going with new lines, pump, adjustable regulator ect.

[2.216VTurbo]

Woah, lotsa questions, I take a stab at one. I haven't run one yet but the FFV stainless fuel rail mocks up to the Masi IN manifold nicely and I think it would supply all the flow you need.

The stock EX mani suprised a few of us how MUCH it flows once the teeny lil IHI turbo flange is cut off! Its a nice piece,I'd urge you to consider modifying/using it and spending that header $$ on other parts:)

[joelzip]

It just kills me to see the two outside exhaust runners shooting directly into each other. Plus I tig weld myself so the cost is actually less than the modified factory manifold from supplier....I'm going to ask Cindy if she knows what fuel rail of hers would work, I would rather run aftermarket with the rail mounted regulator. Do you have a suggestion for spark plugs? Do these heads use the same plugs as the 8 valve or t3 motors?

[cordes]

If you can tig weld yourself then just buy some injector rail stock and make the brackets. The spacing is the same on all of the chryslers.

[2.216VTurbo]

It just kills me to see the two outside exhaust runners shooting directly into each other. Plus I tig weld myself so the cost is actually less than the modified factory manifold from supplier....I'm going to ask Cindy if she knows what fuel rail of hers would work, I would rather run aftermarket with the rail mounted regulator. Do you have a suggestion for spark plugs? Do these heads use the same plugs as the 8 valve or t3 motors?

Plugs are unique to Masi application, niether TIII or 8V plugs work, these have a smaller body. I don't have the NGK number committed to memory but I found a bunch of them on ebay, issue was when they showed up, they fit the head fine but take an 18mm socket insted of the 16mm socket. There is not enough room down the plug holes in the head for an 18mm socket. DOH!:confused2:

So then next head I had prepped, I had it bored large enough to accept the 18mm:thumb: I still have a couple running motors that can only take the hard to find 16mm plugs. As the heads come off for valvetrain parts replacement(Im sure Rick used the oversized/upgraded valves &springs,it's his stuff he developed:eyebrows:)I have the overbore mod done.

[GLHNSLHT2]

A t1 rail bolts right up, the only difference between a T1 and a Masi is the location of the FPR which works just fine in a different place anyway. I don't know if a FWDP style rail mount FPR would work with room for the a/c/alt bracket or not. TU's might work with the FPR on one end.

[joelzip]

When you have time please post the plug numbers kinda late for me to bore the head as its assembled and clean

[GLHS0769]

NGK 7162 .025 or Autolite 4164 .028

[joelzip]

looks like I might have to hog my finished head out for spark plugs.....Ill post some pics of what I bought and you guys can decide for yourselves.

[2.216VTurbo]

looks like I might have to hog my finished head out for spark plugs.....This cylinder head / exhaust manifold / intake / fuel rail I had done is a mess. Ill post some pics of what I bought and you guys can decide for yourselves.

I don't understand what this post means. Rick did the head and it's finished and ready to run right?

[GLHNSLHT2]

Plugs are unique to Masi application, niether TIII or 8V plugs work, these have a smaller body. I don't have the NGK number committed to memory but I found a bunch of them on ebay, issue was when they showed up, they fit the head fine but take an 18mm socket insted of the 16mm socket. There is not enough room down the plug holes in the head for an 18mm socket. DOH!:confused2:

So then next head I had prepped, I had it bored large enough to accept the 18mm:thumb: I still have a couple running motors that can only take the hard to find 16mm plugs. As the heads come off for valvetrain parts replacement(Im sure Rick used the oversized/upgraded valves &springs,it's his stuff he developed:eyebrows:)I have the overbore mod done.


NGK 7162 .025 or Autolite 4164 .028

I looked up both those #'s and they both have the 11/16" hex (18mm socket required) But then for sh1ts and giggles I looked up Champion. Now Champion seems to use the same web page as NGK so I'm thinking they're under the same parent company. They come up with a nickel plug at the exact same price as the NGK, but when you click on the specs it uses a 5/8" hex (16mm) I'm gonna go measure the plugs that came out of my Masi head to see what size they are, they are NGK's though. Now I just want to find an Autolite racing plug for it instead :)

[iTurbo]

Surely the spark plugs must be available without having to go to the extent of modifying the head. I have a couple heads in the garage that I can pull out the plugs and see what the part #s are.

Also it appears Rick has a set of stock 16v spark plugs on eBay right now...

[Spiritman]

Im certain if u get a master ngk book u should be able to find plugs to fit. mabey even a better heat range. just need to sit down and take a look

[GLHNSLHT2]

Edited:


The Champ plug Champion 810 RA8HC WILL WORK

Here's the part # off my NGK plugs I pulled out of the Masi head. NGK 3932 DCPR7E They have the correct 5/8" hex.


The champ plug listed above has the same thread and hex size. You can also get the NGK's in a colder heat range by replacing the 7 with a 9 though the 4 digit code in front of that # will probably change too.

[joelzip]

awesome thank you for the input. I really dont want to burn a bridge with who did the work. But here are some pics of the exhaust manifold I got after I sent out a clean glass beaded factory manifold along with $650. I had to send it back because there was a hole right through to the outside near the welding. I did get my money back and my original manifold which I was led to believe was the one that was going to be modified. Instead mine was taken in exchange for another that was on the shelf which I discovered afterwards. Please share your thoughts as I'm not going to say a thing about it other than the facts. You can see my flashlight inside showing some light through to the outside in one of the pictures. What do you think about this product?

[2.216VTurbo]

The builder should have been a bit more generous on the filler weld but it's not a bad build at all IMO. I'd like to see it seem welded and ground down on the inside as well but that might be overkill. I like how they reinforced the back side of the flange with an added block, should give it a bunch more strength that way. Welding cast iron can be tricky but I'm sure someone locally can finish the job for a nominal fee. Not a bad job, they should have checked the final product a bit closer tho. The thing is, the IHI is mounted at an odd angle, when my bud chopped/modded his flange similar to yours(he used a Chrysler style bolt pattern because he had a turbo already) he used a wedge shaped flange, thicker on one side than the other to correct for the angle and give clearance for a Garrett turbo. I'm wondering if you will have an issue with a standard flange like that?

You mentioned an issue with teh intake manifold?

[GLHNSLHT2]

He should be fine with the turbo as he had the spacers welded at the head too.


Angle cut this one on the masi flange then welded a T3 flange onto it, A GT30R clears the starter just barely without having to weld on the spacers at the head. I don't know if a GT35R with a TO4S housing would clear though. Plenty of filler rod for a nice smooth radius into the manifold.

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/1003837_3131236415250_1812757579_n.jpg

[iTurbo]

So are there really no higher flowing IHI turbochargers, or at least a larger turbine housing available that would allow using a stock unmodified exhaust manifold? I was going to look into perhaps something from a Subaru, but I have no idea if the flange is the same or not. It sure looks like the stock Masi 16v IHI turbine housing is a decent size already....just the compressor half is pretty tiny. Would some sort of hybrid be possible for somebody like me that doesn't want to shoot for the moon as far as HP potential?

[Reaper1]

I have some colder NGK plugs for my Masi at the house. I'll post up the numbers when I get home. I did a LOT of research to find them. As long as you take the tube out of the middle of the fuel rail it'll support a lot of power. You need to have the spacer on the head side of the manifold or some other means of spacing the turbo out from the engine so it'll fit if you're using a large aftermarket turbo. The IHI has been shown to support enough power to get Rick's GLHS into the 12's IIRC. As far as I know the cam seals are the same as the 8V engines. There are no new valve cover gaksets available, so I hope you have a good one. I think Rick or Shel-Game has a good cal for the Masi. It'll be a good start, but it probably won't be exactly right for your set-up. It's going to be interesting the next couple of years as there are quite a few bad @ss Masi build going on right now!

[joelzip]

At this point I sent the entire modified manifold back because of the hole and got my original back. So I'm back to square one. I also purchased a stainless exhaust masi flange to build a custom manifold or use it as a spacer. I sent out my original fuel rail to have it modified and afterwards I noticed the builder smashed one of the injector outlets from clamping it in a vice. He told me he could heat it up with a torch and make it round again.....at that point I told him to just keep it cause I didn't want it on my car. So that was the second bad piece. This was the port that seals onto the injector with an o-ring and high pressure fuel. On to the intake, there's nothing really wrong with the intake but the fact that the "port and polish that the builder told me he poured his heart and soul into was $1,000. And here are the results I got from him. Again any comments are appreciated good or bad. Another note, after all this porting and polishing was done the actual diameter of the ports were to no surprise the same size, the stock gaskets are no smaller than the ports still. All of the "porting and polishing" in most places barely removed the texture of the sand casting. The mini van throttle body was $150, and the area that the injectors spray into are still untouched and really rough. I think I'm going to buy a set of tools to go over the entire thing.

[joelzip]

Im thinking I should take the head into another shop and have it disassembled to shape the valve guides to the port, go over every inch of the exhaust and intake ports to make them a bit larger than factory and have it washed and put back together again. Any ideas?

[joelzip]

I do have a valve cover gasket and my engine builder who is a whole different person might have some extras. If he does I will be sure to post them up for you guys. Im buying a ball bearing 58mm comp turbo from cindy, I have 4 of them on other cars and they are awesome. Billet wheels, beautiful piece.

[GLHNSLHT2]

is pic 8 into the cylinder head or up the intake manifold?

[Reaper1]

What are your power goals? To be fair, the stock Masi head has been proven to flow more than a modded Chevy LS9 head, so minimal porting is really needed to make large power. Personally, unless you are shooting for more than 700 crank, I think it's fine. You don't want to loose velocity just to make bench numbers, which really mean jack just like dyno numbers. From what I understand the stock intake is good for 400 before it becomes a real restriction. A custom intake is in my future to meet my goals. I'm personally in turbo choice hell as my goals are in a performance "hole" as far as turbo choices are concerned. Especially considering my future plans. If there are new valve cover gaksets available, I am 100% interested and will commit to buying one depending on price. I can tell you that the asking price for the failed group buy was $150 each for the commited group buy participants.

[Reaper1]

The one thing I will say is that due to the rarity of this cylinder head I am more than willing to pay the premium to the very few experts I trust to even touch this head (and I did and I don't regret it). I am not willing to send a head that fewer than probably 1000 exist to just anybody that is going to hog it out just for the sake of the ports "looking big" and throwing down huge numbers on a flow bench. There's only 4 people in the world that I'm currently aware of that I'd even consider to let them touch it with a grinder. 3 of them are well known in the TM community. The 4th will probably be getting my spare head to repair and get a 1-of-a-kind port job. That's a few years down the road, though.

[iTurbo]

Thanks for the info Reaper1. If I am reading right, a stock Masi 16v cylinder head outflows a ported GM LS9 head, a stock intake support 400 WHP+, and a stock IHI turbocharger will get an L-body into the 12s. Well I guess I am set already! I'm mostly into it for the nostalgia and cool/unique factor anyways.

Very informative/interesting thread. I applaud the original poster for being matter-of-fact about it, not wanting to burn bridges and just wanting more information overall. We all want more info but this is such a rare motor that hardly anybody supports. Such great potential yet so rare unfortunately.

[Reaper1]

Thanks for the info Reaper1. If I am reading right, a stock Masi 16v cylinder head outflows a ported GM LS9 head, a stock intake support 400 WHP+, and a stock IHI turbocharger will get an L-body into the 12s. Well I guess I am set already! I'm mostly into it for the nostalgia and cool/unique factor anyways.

Very informative/interesting thread. I applaud the original poster for being matter-of-fact about it, not wanting to burn bridges and just wanting more information overall. We all want more info but this is such a rare motor that hardly anybody supports. Such great potential yet so rare unfortunately.

No problem sharing. I've got to update my build thread. I've done quite a bit and I have more photos to post of my build, too.

The facts and figures about the head flow, intake, and turbo come directly from Rick Diogo.

I will say that owning one of these engines is a never ending learning experience. They are so unique, almost nothing is the exact same between all the rest of the TM engines and the Masi. When I first wanted to get into the Masi engine I contacted Rick and was just interested in a cylinder head thinking that I could do the build similar to a TIII swap or a hybrid build. He suggested that was a bad idea due to the uniqueness and that I'd be better trying to find an entire car or engine. After being able to score an entire engine and really looking at it, man was he right!

[joelzip]

I heard the ls9 story too, I would hope a 4 valve cylinder head in any form would outflow a 2 valve head. I can understand not hogging the ports out larger for a reason but to say that it would take 10 hours of porting / polishing and $1,000 to get it to look like it does is beyond me. Pic 8 is down an intake port. I would like about 450 horse, That throttle body is 52mm. I would like to build a custom intake manifold as I enjoy fabricating. The volume of the main trunk line is so little compared to even a factory srt4 for instance. But I know its probably not going to matter for my power goals. I have a factory two tone horizon to put this stuff in, Im waiting for it to ship up from Florida, I bought it from an old dead dude.....

[85boostbox]

What are your power goals? To be fair, the stock Masi head has been proven to flow more than a modded Chevy LS9 head, so minimal porting is really needed to make large power. Personally, unless you are shooting for more than 700 crank, I think it's fine. You don't want to loose velocity just to make bench numbers, which really mean jack just like dyno numbers. From what I understand the stock intake is good for 400 before it becomes a real restriction. A custom intake is in my future to meet my goals. I'm personally in turbo choice hell as my goals are in a performance "hole" as far as turbo choices are concerned. Especially considering my future plans. If there are new valve cover gaksets available, I am 100% interested and will commit to buying one depending on price. I can tell you that the asking price for the failed group buy was $150 each for the commited group buy participants.

Where did you get this info about a Masi head flows more than a LS9 head. Last time I talked to Rick D. He said that the most flowing he had was 300 on the intake. A cnc'd LS9 head flows 322 at..500in of lift on the intake and 358 at 650. And that is with a 2.165 intake valve. :screwy:

[joelzip]

Where did you get this info about a Masi head flows more than a LS9 head. Last time I talked to Rick D. He said that the most flowing he had was 300 on the intake. A cnc'd LS9 head flows 322 at..500in of lift on the intake and 358 at 650. And that is with a 2.165 intake valve. :screwy:


Rick told me it will outflow an ls9 head several times. It seams as though we are all listening to one source for our information. I wish there was at least one other person who has real testing on these heads.

[86Shelby]

I could certainly believe a mildly massaged Masi head keeping up with a stock LS6 head. Many of those flow around 240-250cfm or so on the intake with .4" lift. Throw in larger valves and involved port work I would hope it would flow more than that. I'd love to see a couple flowbench sheets showing upwards of 300cfm on a Masi. If for nothing else than to make me cry tears of joy that someone was able to do it!

[joelzip]

I have these on my sbc they flow over 300cfm with a 2.1 valve and aren't even the large ones they offer. Were ricks flow numbers ever seen on paper? Was it with those cams he had welded for taller lift?

http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_115

[85boostbox]

That was the last time I talked to Rick D he told me 300 on a hogged out Masi head. If he can show me flow numbers on paper that beats a ported LS9 head. Until then I wave the BS flag.

[Reaper1]

So I went back an looked at the pictures again (now that I'm on my computer and not my phone). The work done to the head looks more than acceptable. Taking the whole thing apart to gain 1-2% flow by grinding on the guides, and also loosing valve stem support simply isn't worth the trade off for your power goals. Porting the stock intake manifold without cutting it apart isn't easy. Just look at it. Besides the time honored tradition of "hogging it out", or cutting it apart, it isn't exactly grinder friendly. Could you get better flow numbers out of making the ports huge? Sure. What does that do for velocity? Can the valves even take advantage of it? Do you know where you can take a bunch of meat out of the port without hitting water, oil, or some other void? I'm not about to risk possibly ruining a very rare cylinder head to find out.

As for the flow numbers, no, I did not see a sheet. However, I know where he sent the head to be tested and I have no reason to doubt the claim. Keep this in mind: peak numbers mean diddly, especially when measured at valve lifts that the engine will never see. I find that practice annoying. So, when the claim is made that it will outflow "x" other cylinder head, this can mean different things. Also remember that flow benches are just like dynos: they all read differently so comparing numbers from one to the other can really be misleading. The claim was made by a person who is an expert in those cylinder heads and knows what to expect out of his bench. When he tested the Masi he was surprised by the results and called Rick to ask questions, not the other way around. I was also told it was compared to a lightly modded LS9, not CNC ported, large valve unit. I would have had a hard time swallowing that one.

The one thing I've consistently heard from numerous 16V Masi owners is that they are not cheap in any way, shape, or form. I knew that and expected that going into it. These engines aren't for everyone. If you have a stockpile of parts and know all the in's and out's, then you might be able to do stuff a bit less expensive than if you are paying someone, but keep in mind the investment for that stockpile. Think of it this way, you are dealing with an engine that has lower production numbers than a lot of Ferrari's. You can not, and should not expect prices for parts and service for something like that to have the typical TM pricetags most of us are used to. In this case the saying "you gotta pay to play" certainly applies.

Is it worth it? Well, to me it is. I like being unique and a lot of the time that comes with a higher cost than if I were to just follow the rest of the heard. If you want to make 450hp for only a couple grand or less, this engine isn't for you. That goal can easily be met by the other engine options available. If you want to make 450hp with an engine very few have seen or know about, for the initial investment of the engine and freshening it up along with some other custom work to make a worthwhile turbo fit and don't mind that parts are scarce, then this is an option you might enjoy. Figure on freshening a good engine (including the head) to be in the $4-5k range unless you simply want a runner and then you can get away for much less (especially if you do the assembly work). Getting the head gone through is a must. Whether you get it ported or not, this is still something that should be done as the exhaust valves, guides, and springs are all known weak points.

For my goals, this engine fit the bill. I'm aiming for power (more than 99% of TM'rs out there) and reliability. Based on testimonials from people that have used these engines in a similar fashion that I intend to, and the positive feedback of the "set it and forget it" type of running they've experienced, I was willing to suck up the initial investment and all of the idiosyncrasies that go along with this engine for that type of positive tradeoff. After spending a pretty hefty sum compared to most TM builds, and working on it for nearly 3 years now, I am still more than happy with my decision. I'm getting antsy to drive my car, but not wanting to blow up an engine that cost me so much is a great motivator to do things right the first time.

The "Masi Brotherhood" is a pretty exclusive and tight knit "club". We are very fortunate to have a few people that have invested the time and money to really figure these engines out to be able to provide the parts, services, knowledge, and advice that they do. I don't believe that anybody is out there trying to pull one over on anybody else. From my own experience all the people I've ever come across that have these engines have been more than willing to share information and help. My build hasn't been without some snags, but they have always been taken care of and solved with little problem.

I have no doubt you will meet your goals very easily with the build you have. I'm sure you will be very happy with the end results. I sure as heck don't mind sharing information, that was one of the main purposed to my build thread. I've fallen behind on it, but mainly because my progress has been at a snail's pace. It's starting to pick up now and I hope to have the engine fully assembled into a long block by spring. I don't know if I'll have the turbo on it as I'm still trying to decide on what to do there.

[85boostbox]

Flow numbers are measured on 4.065 bore

LPE CNC L92 LS3 Flow Specs
Intake valve lift / Exhaust valve lift
.200 - 158 cfm / .200 - 116 cfm
.300 - 230 cfm / .300 - 161 cfm
.400 - 282 cfm / .400 - 201 cfm
.450 - 302 cfm / .450 - 213 cfm
.500 - 322 cfm / .500 - 220 cfm
.550 - 340 cfm / .550 - 226 cfm
.600 - 350 cfm / .600 - 231 cfm
.650 - 358 cfm / .650 - 234 cfm
.700 - 344 cfm / .700 - 237 cfm


I just really hate when people compare stuff that is completely different. Here are flow numbers for a LS9, l92, ls3 cnc'd heads.

[85boostbox]

And I'm sorry to say. If I paid 1000 dollars plus on a port and polish I would expect better work than what he got.

[Reaper1]

Here are the spark plugs I have for my engine: NGK DCPR8E (stock number 4339). Try this link for finding other options:
http://www.sparkplug-crossreference.com/convert/NGK_PN/dcpr8e

[Reaper1]

And I'm sorry to say. If I paid 1000 dollars plus on a port and polish I would expect better work than what he got.

To be fair you are going to spend $2000 or more for a fully built 8V head from a reputable builder and it STILL won't flow as much or be able to rev as well (without a good bit more work) as the Masi head. For the Lotus head you are looking at similar numbers to get a built head with upgraded valvetrain components for reliability. The advantage to the Lotus head is parts are much more readily available and there is a lot more widespread knowledge and support for it. Trust me, I understand the sticker shock! Been there, done that, got the bruised bank account to prove it. But, like I said, I went into it knowing what to expect. I blew my budget pretty badly, but I got a better end product and I know where my money went.

[4 l-bodies]

I have these on my sbc they flow over 300cfm with a 2.1 valve and aren't even the large ones they offer. Were ricks flow numbers ever seen on paper? Was it with those cams he had welded for taller lift?

http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_115


That was the last time I talked to Rick D he told me 300 on a hogged out Masi head. If he can show me flow numbers on paper that beats a ported LS9 head. Until then I wave the BS flag.


A stock masi head with stock lift camshafts flows better than the Lotus & Neon 16V Chrysler heads. Ranging from quite a bit, to just barely. Where the Masi really shines is the exhaust port. It fact, Cosworth did some things to make it flow worse, so it wouldn't outflow the intake. As some of you may know, the exhaust flow is critical in performance turbo applications. I have flowed multiple masi heads on a flow bench. In fact I had Rick's masi head on flow bench. Rick's masi head port work was done long before LS9 cylinder heads, so I don't know where that comparison came from? I was working on a max effort LT5 (old school ZR1) almost at the same time Rick's head was benched, maybe that is where the comparison to SBC (and DOHC) came from? The exhaust of Rick's head outflowed the LT5's at any lift! The intake did not. I know Rick's cylinder head has been flowed on more than one flowbench. #'s floating around probably are based on lift exceeding stock lift masi camshafts. Rick's max #'s are not stock lift. A huge amount of time was spent on R&D of Rick's head, It was worked on by more than one party in this TM community. So it is sort of insulting to any that worked on it as referring to it as a "hogged out" head. A bit more R&D was done on it than that.
Todd

[85boostbox]

So where are these flow numbers. You keep comparing but no numbers. I dont mean to be rude but that would be saying I have a 9 second car on our beloved mitsu turbo without a intercooler.

Sorry to be insulting but maybe I used the wrong words then. I talked to Rick and I remember him saying that he had a head that flowed 300/300. Am I wrong???

And Reaper. Some small block chevys see a lot of lift. These are not the only cars that I screw with.... So people comparing apples to oranges proves nothing.

[Reaper1]

The LS9 story comes from a shop in California. I don't remember off the top of my brain whether Rick specified if it was his head that is on his GLHS or what. It's been almost 3 years ago. The one part of the story that sticks out besides the results is that the shop called Rick because they were very impressed with the numbers they saw.

I was just looking for the head flow comparison that was done many years ago. I couldn't remember if it had a Masi included in that test. I thought Gary Donovan had it on his site, but I didn't see it.

Todd, do you have any Masi flow numbers that can be posted? I know there are people out there that would rather that stuff be kept confidential, so I understand if not.

At any rate, this is supposed to be an information sharing thread, not a bash-fest.

[85boostbox]

http://thedodgegarage.com/cylinder_head_flow.html


Right here

[Reaper1]

And Reaper. Some small block chevys see a lot of lift. These are not the only cars that I screw with.... So people comparing apples to oranges proves nothing.

No doubt! I'm with you 100% on that. Yes, it would be very easy to compare apples to oranges in this case. Maybe a better comparison would have been between the Lotus head, or even better, some of the well known Honda heads (simply because they are even more directly comparable due to cam on bucket and the overall architecture).

I can't help but reiterate that peak flow numbers, just like peak dyno numbers, hardly tell the whole story and very rarely predict how well the car will perform on track.

[Reaper1]

http://thedodgegarage.com/cylinder_head_flow.html


Right here

Thanks! Dunno how I didn't find it. One thing of note is that the heads were tested at 10" water, then a conversion factor was applied to get the numbers posted on that page (as it states above the first spreadsheet). In my mind this is ok for rough estimates, but doesn't really tell the true story. Also, were these flowed with the intake and exhaust manifolds on the heads? If not, then the Masi numbers are off anyway as the intake is actually an extension of the siamiezed intake ports.

[85boostbox]

Agreed with the above. Now comparing a lt5 head sounds more reasonable. Those were lotus designed heads for the zr1 vette. Also the ONLY ohc or dohc chevy v8 to be produced. Sort of a unicorn in that matter.

I have no doubt on cosworth heads flowing very well. I research a lot of there designs and get my mind going. Look at formula 1 cars. Or the escort cosworth. Amazing machines to say the least.

[joelzip]

I want it to be heard that I knew it was going to be expensive. I agreed to the pricing before it was done. I can understand that enlarging a port might be beneficial. I was just surprised at how little amount of material was taken off for the explained amount of time that was spent. I was also told that he knew how much was able to be taken off without blowing through the walls. Except I think about 1/64 of an inch was removed with a sanding roll. Most of it wasn't enough to even remove the casting texture. It was just very very surprising at how little was done for the amount of time that I was told was spent, because that was to only thing I could trust he would do. Kinda vague to pay someone to port a head with out any real measurement of what was done. Its not like I could see a pile of alumnum that was removed. It just looks like stock with about 2 hours of work, a 240 grit roll on a grinder just enough to make shiny spots. I know this head flows well, but a head that was designed to spin low rpm in a tc it a different animal at 8,000rpm. Thats why I thought the runners, intake and ports could use some material removed to match the new rpm span.

[4 l-bodies]

So where are these flow numbers. You keep comparing but no numbers. I dont mean to be rude but that would be saying I have a 9 second car on our beloved mitsu turbo without a intercooler.

Sorry to be insulting but maybe I used the wrong words then. I talked to Rick and I remember him saying that he had a head that flowed 300/300. Am I wrong???

"I" keep comparing but no #'s? Previous post was my first post in this thread! Flow #'s are in Rick's, Pat's and my hands. Probably others too. It is Rick's head and if he chooses to post these #'s he will. My reasoning for not posting? He paid for the work and no one else. Probably many more hours went unbilled from Pat and myself. We all wanted to see what this cylinder head could flow.

Yes the masi head is that good, esp. the exhaust! My flowbench #'s were done at TPiS. A very well known SBC engine builder. So no fudging of #'s here. Just so you know Rick's head (at least on the exhaust side) exceeded 300 CFM on two separate benches. That is a whole bunch more CFM on the exhaust side than the #'s you posted for CNC'd LS3 head.

Here are some stock Masi #'s for you Chris/Joel.
A stock masi head at stock lift .335 will flow around 235 intake and 215 exhaust. Even at .200 lift it is outflowing virtually all ported +1 or BV 8v 2.2 heads (at any lift) on the exhaust side! All about port design and velocity.

My Masi head with Rev aftermarket valves just roughed in at .335 lift flowed 254 intake and 215 CFM exhaust. This is with zero porting or throat work done. Also with molded clay intake, and no pipe on exhaust. Just placing exhaust extension on it will pick up exhaust #'s a bunch. Gains on the exhaust sides are very big after taking out restrictions meant to reduce flow. If your not careful, your exhaust will easily outflow your intake. That at least in normally aspirated form, is a serious no-no.

[4 l-bodies]

I want it to be heard that I knew it was going to be expensive. I agreed to the pricing before it was done. I can understand that enlarging a port might be beneficial. I was just surprised at how little amount of material was taken off for the explained amount of time that was spent. I was also told that he knew how much was able to be taken off without blowing through the walls. Except I think about 1/64 of an inch was removed with a sanding roll. Most of it wasn't enough to even remove the casting texture. It was just very very surprising at how little was done for the amount of time that I was told was spent, because that was to only thing I could trust he would do. Kinda vague to pay someone to port a head with out any real measurement of what was done. Its not like I could see a pile of alumnum that was removed. It just looks like stock with about 2 hours of work, a 240 grit roll on a grinder just enough to make shiny spots. I know this head flows well, but a head that was designed to spin low rpm in a tc it a different animal at 8,000rpm. Thats why I thought the runners, intake and ports could use some material removed to match the new rpm span.
So you did not receive any flowbench results of your actual head flow? In my book that is part of the deal. If you did, you could determine what a optimum camshaft lift would be. That is exactly what Rick did with his flowbench results. He had camshafts made for his particular headflow. How about any cc port volumes? I have all the stock measurements.
Todd

[Ondonti]

Wow, I think a bunch of these last 20 ignorant bashing posts need to be deleted.

Comparing port jobs to Chevy STOCK heads is a very common thing in the car world. If you did not know that, then sorry, you were wrong, tuck tail, stop complaining. In the 6g7x Mitsu community we like to compare a ported Mivec 6g75 head to the stock LS7 heads. We compare to Chevy heads because they are the most documented cylinder heads on the planet.

If you think 10 hours is a lot of time into a head that someone has never touched before, you are looking for bargains you don't deserve. The guy should have sold your head if you didn't pay anything. If you didn't make your requirements clear, that is your problem.

I don't see anything wrong with the port job and unless you had some measurement requirements for port sizes you might want to realize that gasket matching is newbie head porting science. Unless you know what you are trying to do (because you or others have done it a million times) you don't just take material out of a head. Ed Kelly who ports 3.0 heads has found on his flowbench that for stock size valves he likes to add material to the intake ports. When I was working on porting a Lotus head (project never finished) I calculated what size I wanted the intake and exhaust ports to be and then measured as I went. I was working for free but I was planning on putting 50-100 hours into it.

If Steve charges $2,000 for a very nice cookie cutter 8 valve head and you want some sorta custom extensive head port on a 16 valve head you should be looking at a 3500 dollar bill or more since its such a rare head. You seem to want the world for 500 dollars. Ed Kelly charges very little compared to others and uses a flowbench along with other tools to avoid just going for flow #'s. He does it as a hobby. You went to someone who is trying to make a living. That exhaust manifold also looked great less the needed repair. I think that should have been more like 400 dollars but its not easy to weld cast iron. I would have worried more about if it will crack later on then a hole that needs repairing. That was a SIMPLE MISTAKE that could have been repaired. I have paid more for welding and fixed holes myself because I felt like I still got the value I paid for. You always feel ripped off by others when you are used to doing your own car work, but then realize how much non car people spend on car repairs and be humbled.

[joelzip]

Everything was done by Rick. The head, intake work was about $2,500. Stock cams, stock cam seals, new valves, guides buckets. The $1000 was only for port and polish nothing else. No flow numbers, just that it would take 10 plus hours and " he poured his heart and soul into it" that was on my email receipt.

[4 l-bodies]

I'd have Koffel's place flow bench it, then you would know.
Todd

[joelzip]

I would know something if I had it benched before I sent it out. Here are some more plugs http://forums.aaca.org/f144/16v-dohc-spark-plug-304863.html May I ask why some are going through the trouble of cutting the head open for a larger plug hex when there are plenty with the smaller 16mm hex on them? I am going to research valve stud washers and find a substitute. I think this thread might be most useful pointing out substitute parts. I'm done on my end with what was done on the head and for how much / what I was told. Whats done is done and I am moving forward. When the car is shipped up I am going to use the stock block to hold the masi head in place while I make a custom exhaust manifold. I am going to use the thick 1.5" schedule 40 weld els for the manifold and cut in an external gate for an l-body. If there is more interest when I am done I will offer to make another. I am waiting for my turbo collector, car, and turbo at this point.

[85boostbox]

Wow, I think a bunch of these last 20 ignorant bashing posts need to be deleted.

Comparing port jobs to Chevy STOCK heads is a very common thing in the car world. If you did not know that, then sorry, you were wrong, tuck tail, stop complaining. In the 6g7x Mitsu community we like to compare a ported Mivec 6g75 head to the stock LS7 heads. We compare to Chevy heads because they are the most documented cylinder heads on the planet.

If you think 10 hours is a lot of time into a head that someone has never touched before, you are looking for bargains you don't deserve. The guy should have sold your head if you didn't pay anything. If you didn't make your requirements clear, that is your problem.

I don't see anything wrong with the port job and unless you had some measurement requirements for port sizes you might want to realize that gasket matching is newbie head porting science. Unless you know what you are trying to do (because you or others have done it a million times) you don't just take material out of a head. Ed Kelly who ports 3.0 heads has found on his flowbench that for stock size valves he likes to add material to the intake ports. When I was working on porting a Lotus head (project never finished) I calculated what size I wanted the intake and exhaust ports to be and then measured as I went. I was working for free but I was planning on putting 50-100 hours into it.

If Steve charges $2,000 for a very nice cookie cutter 8 valve head and you want some sorta custom extensive head port on a 16 valve head you should be looking at a 3500 dollar bill or more since its such a rare head. You seem to want the world for 500 dollars. Ed Kelly charges very little compared to others and uses a flowbench along with other tools to avoid just going for flow #'s. He does it as a hobby. You went to someone who is trying to make a living. That exhaust manifold also looked great less the needed repair. I think that should have been more like 400 dollars but its not easy to weld cast iron. I would have worried more about if it will crack later on then a hole that needs repairing. That was a SIMPLE MISTAKE that could have been repaired. I have paid more for welding and fixed holes myself because I felt like I still got the value I paid for. You always feel ripped off by others when you are used to doing your own car work, but then realize how much non car people spend on car repairs and be humbled.

This post is so full of crap I had to put boots on to read it. If I am paying 2000 dollars just for a port and polish I would have to much money. Cindy and our other vendors sell there stage 3 heads with big valves for 1500 with a flow sheet. Why in the world would I spend 2000 on just a port and polish.

And people compare to GM heads cause they produce power with a well proven design. Pushrod engine. I was calling BS on saying that a Masi would outflow a ported LS9 head.

Oh and the fact that the exhaust flows more on the Masi. Doesn't bother me one bit. It is still a fact that people put 1200 whp down with a factory ls engine with some boost.

[joelzip]

Enough with the comparison to chevy heads, I don't think we are gaining anything here. Maybe we could turn this back to the original reason why I posted this thread which is to learn something. We now know that there are several 16mm small hex spark plugs available, why are some having the head modified for a different plug base? Also I am trying to find any substitute parts that we can use as alternatives to the obsolete or expensive oem pieces.I am going to need a tensioner as well, I know that some have taken the early 8v tensioner and added an 8mm thick spacer to it. Is there any pictures of this?, is the welding necessary? Also I am trying to find any substitute parts that we can use as alternatives to the obsolete or expensive oem pieces. I'm going to find an alternative o-ring for the spark plug hole gasket, valve cover stud washers, and I will report back if the 8 valve cam seals are the same.

[GLHNSLHT2]

8v cam seals are NOT the same.

[4 l-bodies]

...I know that some have taken the early 8v tensioner and added an 8mm thick spacer to it. Is there any pictures of this?, is the welding necessary? Also I am trying to find any substitute parts that we can use as alternatives to the obsolete or expensive oem pieces. I'm going to find an alternative o-ring for the spark plug hole gasket, valve cover stud washers, and I will report back if the 8 valve cam seals are the same.
8V cams seals aren't even close, don't bother. ID is WAY off. A 8mm or 5/16" spacer and early tensioner can be used. Don't even have to weld it if you don't want to. You need a picture of that, try to visualize a thick washer under a tensioner pulley (lol). RDI has these available, he used early belt tensioner and machined piece to make these up.
I had a group buy on billet thermostat housing covers made up for the 16V motor. Adam Lengel made these for us. For some reason these corroded badly on originals. Adam's version is far superior than original. I think I have a few left of these. I also had 25 pairs of adjustable cam pulleys made up for these motors. A few members bought multiple sets from me. Maybe someone would be willing to sell you a set if you wish to pursue. I think I am down to two new sets. No, current 8V ones don't fit, however the first small batch or two of square tooth pulleys from Fidanza were made incorrectly and had degree marks on wrong side for 8V motors (oops!). Some masi owners used these on their vehicles. They still needed to be narrowed as full width pulley would hit the head.
I personally have no intention of opening up spark plug recess. Plugs aren't that difficult to find. I believe there are some alternatives to valve cover stud grommets. It looked promising last time I checked them out. Another member had to have some billet cam caps made up. Don't ever drop yours, they are fragile as another member found out the hard way.
Well, report back with spark plug hole grommets. Too thick and valve cover won't seal, too loose and oil will pour into spark plug holes, then pour onto exhaust manifold and burn. Then of course you need to find some made of the correct material too. RDI had these re-popped. Sure glad I didn't drink the Kool-Aid on the valve cover gasket reproduction group buy. Saw that one coming from about a mile away.
Todd

[2.216VTurbo]

I would know something if I had it benched before I sent it out. Here are some more plugs http://forums.aaca.org/f144/16v-dohc-spark-plug-304863.html May I ask why some are going through the trouble of cutting the head open for a larger plug hex when there are plenty with the smaller 16mm hex on them? I am going to research valve stud washers and find a substitute. I think this thread might be most useful pointing out substitute parts. I'm done on my end with what was done on the head and for how much / what I was told. Whats done is done and I am moving forward. When the car is shipped up I am going to use the stock block to hold the masi head in place while I make a custom exhaust manifold. I am going to use the thick 1.5" schedule 40 weld els for the manifold and cut in an external gate for an l-body. If there is more interest when I am done I will offer to make another. I am waiting for my turbo collector, car, and turbo at this point.

Well, I told you why in that post right? I bought a LARGE lot of plugs from ebay that are correct in every way except body/socket size. Now if I had enough plugs so I could change them about every 5K in all four Masi 16v cars I have (with at least one more car planned as I have plenty of spares) and never had to buy another plug, wouldnt it make sense to find a way to make them work? Not the solution for everybody but it's gonna work for me. Keep in mind that 15 years ago when I was building my first Masi motor, there was no information sharing thread where alternative plug and part numbers could be found. In 2014 your task of building a heavily modified Masi 16v motor is relatively easy:p

[Reaper1]

While I certainly appreciate the information that the 8V cam seals don't work, because this an information :SHARING: thread, could somebody please post the correct part, part number, or alternatives?

How much for a t-stat housing? How much for cam gears? I was going to eventually make both myself because I figured there were none left.

[joelzip]

Im working on the seals now, here is the site http://fme-cat.com/PartSpecification.aspx?Brand=NW&prodCat=OIL%20SEAL I need to separate my timing gear off the cam and measure the shaft diameter, housing diameter and seal thickness to get a cross reference. Here is another good thing for us though, I just got off the phone with magnecore and was told they sell a bunch of spark plug wires for our motor and he knew all about the 16v head its even listed on their site different from the lotus head. Here are the part numbers just search magnecore + part number of choice on google to see the pricing is about $125 for the largest 8.5mm red wire set and even less for the smaller ones. part numbers as follows 7mm black 47410, 8mm blue 40410, 8.5mm red 45410.

[joelzip]

Alrighty, factory I think cam seals that were in it are Koyo brand part number hrsa 40 52 6xrt and my own measurements indicate that the shaft od is 40.10 mm, housing id is 51.97 mm and the thickness of the seal is 6mm so the part number makes sense now, you can see the press fit between the part number and actual sealing thicknesses.

Here she is, http://fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?brand=NW&PartNumber=710308&pt=Oil%20Seal#.Ur3bWvt0nIY

National oil seal 710308, Correct clockwise spiral lip, 40mm shaft, 52mm housing, 6mm width and what do you know its a camshaft seal for Geo, Isuzu and lotus...

$3.49 free shipping on ebay now!

[4 l-bodies]

While I certainly appreciate the information that the 8V cam seals don't work, because this an information :SHARING: thread, could somebody please post the correct part, part number, or alternatives?

How much for a t-stat housing? How much for cam gears? I was going to eventually make both myself because I figured there were none left.

Cam seal skf 15801. CR40x52x7 HMsa7 R crosses to Honda, Toyota, and others. Didn't think this was so difficult to figure out. Hardly top secret. Look at CR part # there is your dimensions.
Had part #'s on wires like ten years ago (lol).
As far as prices on timing gears and thermostat covers, PM me if interested. We can do this off-line. Larry Carlson @ TCparts.com probably has some too.
Todd

[joelzip]

Just trying to get some info out that not everyone knows. People are continuing to purchase 4 spark plugs for $35, $143 for a timing belt, and $200 for wires or at least I was going to :confused:

[Reaper1]

Thanks for the info on the cam seals! I was mistaken on what would work, so I never did the research. Thank you both!

Yeah, the plug wires have been around for a while. I would like to have the HEI ends on mine so I can use my modified cap. For now I'll deal with the old MOPAR "tine" set-up. Eventually I want to go coil-near-plug using the GM LS2 truck coils. That's WAY in the future, though.

[joelzip]

I just sent a check out for a $55 timing belt, I will post what I get and after I confirm its correct I will share where to get them. Craziest thing about it is that it was made in 2013 by goodyear.....

Another piece, don't know if this is common knowledge or not but the tensioner bearing can be replaced without changing the entire unit SKF Bearing number: 6205 2ZJEM

[daver]

Wait... so how much does a Masi head flow compared to a SBC again?

[4 l-bodies]

Wait... so how much does a Masi head flow compared to a SBC again?
That depends... Are you talkin air speed velocity of unladen African or European SBC?
Idontknowthat

[2.216VTurbo]

Just trying to get some info out that not everyone knows. People are continuing to purchase 4 spark plugs for $35, $143 for a timing belt, and $200 for wires or at least I was going to :confused:

Like I said, it's so easy now with threads like this, even a caveman could do it;) I remember when there were only 6 timing belts left in the country at different dealerships, I thought I was gonna have to run those 6 till they came apart:(. I'm still shocked Goodyear decided to repop them. They *must* fit something else. Rumor has it an early 90's 1.8l Ford diesel application is one tooth shorter and would work with a different/modified tensioner. I mean *if* someone decided to run a NA/high CR milled block/head motor...

Good thread BTW Joel as long as the haters stay out of it:nod:


The adj cam gears were expensive but I do have an extra set NIB I would sell at cost plus shipping if you need them for your build.

[GLHNSLHT2]

This thread just turned awesome!


Alan or others do you have a part # for the timing belt? Peeved as I bought 2 at $100 a piece.

[joelzip]

I jumped into this turbo dodge thing just this summer and hit the ground running. I'm really not sure what I would do with the adjustable timing gears as I don't fully understand how the adjustments work or how to set them yet. That may be a future move after I get my feet a little more wet. With 6 months experience and a full on custom masi build in front of me I am really lost in the dust, that's why I wanted to open this thread. I know some of you have been working on these things for over 10 years but to me its new. I am only 29 years old but most of my experience is with carbureted turbo chevy motors. This is what I'm most knowledgeable on. I have a twin turbo malibu and single turbo 1936 auburn speedster.

[joelzip]

This thread just turned awesome!
Alan or others do you have a part # for the timing belt? Peeved as I bought 2 at $100 a piece.


I will post what I get as soon as it comes in the mail which may be a while cause I just sent a check out for it today, I don't have the part number in front of me and I don't want to get too hyped until I have it in my hands. What would be helpful is if someone could post the specs of a correct one, like the number of teeth and length as I don't have an assembled motor to try this belt on once I get it.

[16vGLHS]

Joel, reading through this thread it seems you are a different person today than when we first spoke. When you and I first spoke you said you were planning to build a Masi motor with a HP goal of around 400hp and you were going to install it in a Shelby Lancer. You proudly proclaimed you "already had several other super fast cars"....if I recall one of them is over 1,000hp? So if that is indeed the case, you are not new to performance builds. You said your plans for this build would be for "a mild street car with some decent power, but nothing over the top". You asked what it would cost to rebuild your cylinder head and I sent you a quote with or without porting, with or without replacing the stock valvetrain components, etc.. You made no mention of wanting to have the head or manifolds flow tested. You are certainly welcome to flow test the intake and cylinder head at any place you see fit. I would imagine with the kind of experience you claim to have with performance builds, surely you would have flow tested the head in stock form so you could flow it again after the porting and polishing (on the same bench) so you could see the real world gains realized. With the Cosworth designed Maserati head you do NOT want to "hog it out" a bunch. I've ported scores of these heads (I think it's safe to say more than anyone I've ever heard of since I started modifying these engines in 1994). There are places where it's beneficial to remove more material and other areas where you want to be more conservative with the grinder. It's very easy to hit a coolant jacket on these heads...I know because I've done it. I ran 11.40 @ 128mph in December of 1999 at my local track with my Charger with Masi motor (5spd transmission, no Nitrous, time slip to prove it and Steve Calder was there that evening). By today's standards that seems slow. In 1999 that was moving. That head was not "hogged out" either. It was carefully ported where needed to increase flow at multiple lift points (not just peak lift). Remember, your head spends a helluva lot more time at all the lift points leading up to max lift than it does at max lift. Additionally, it doesn't matter what a head flows at .500" of lift if it never even *sees* that lift point. (read: stock camshaft profile). Since I can see you've been doing a bunch of research, you probably already know the max lift of a Masi head is no where near that high. When you were here I kept nothing "secret". I showed you everything I have, including my own GLHS which has hundreds if not thousands of hours of R&D time into it. I took off the valve cover and showed you the cams, the cam sprockets, how I had Vance & Hines relieve the bucket bores, told you the specs on my cams (all of which I paid for....and if you knew how much I paid, based on what I've been reading of your expectations you'd have had a heart attack). I did much of the work myself but I also paid a considerable sum to Pat in California and Todd in Minnesota for their help with the build. Pat, Todd, and even perhaps Alan know how much money I've put into the car...and it sits today, still not running with the FAST system awaiting my install. Other people asking for my help with their builds as well as my own other project cars keep me from finishing it. The head on my car has countless hours of time into it. I have flow numbers from two different benches. I'm not sure where you got the LS9 quote from (if I said it, either I misspoke or you misheard), but what I recall is Pat and Ed telling me the final product (Masi head) outflowed his best Corvette head (at that time). I'm not a Corvette guy, but I want to say it was an LS5? I would have to ask Ed as he's the person who said it. I was referred to Ed by Pat Melendy in California. Pat can certainly speak to Ed's expertise and knowledge when it comes to cylinder head flow on his Superflow flow bench, I believe it's an SF-1020. Perhaps Alan can too? You'd have to ask Alan. I'm not interested in posting or discussing my flow numbers in an open forum. If you want to have your head flow tested and post your results that's certainly your prerogative. The exhaust manifold I modified for you had a tiny pinhole about the size of the tip of a ballpoint pen. It was miniscule. Nonetheless, as you know, I apologized and gave you several options. Send back for full refund, send back and I'll fix it no charge, etc.. You chose to send it back, which I'm glad you did. I have since taken it to my TIG guy (the only guy I know that can weld cast) and he fixed it, and it looks perfect. Now I have several people emailing me asking me if I'll sell it to them, as they can see by the photos how nice it is (and it's a done, "ready to bolt-on and go" piece, ready to make some good power). The reason for the tool steel block was to reinforce the flange, but again I find myself feeling like I have to "explain" myself to you. If you wish to discuss further you can email me offline.

[Reaper1]

Rick, I will step up and say that it's possible I'm the one that misheard or misunderstood which Chevy head was compared to the Masi. I thought I heard "a mildly ported LS9". It could totally be possible that it was actually "LS5". I apologize for any misunderstanding this may have caused. I feel really bad if I lead anyone astray.

[85boostbox]

Ok well I take back whatever I said about ls9. I am a big time into the ls chevy engines. Most of you know that I also own a silverado SS. I know a lot about different chevy configurations. When it came out LS9 I was like no way. "LT5" now makes a little more sense. Btw here is my Silverado SS lol.

[joelzip]

"The reason for the tool steel block was to reinforce the flange, but again I find myself feeling like I have to "explain" myself to you. If you wish to discuss further you can email me offline"

No explanation needed, I wanted to post of some pictures of your work and products and ask what everyone thought. Tried to keep it as factual as possible with pictures. If you feel you need to defend or explain yourself over them that's fine, just wanted to post what was offered at RDI Performance.

[2.216VTurbo]

@85boost, I get that you want to defend your favorite Chevy platform-heck I get like that when someone uninitiated bashes my TC Maseratis;) This *is*a Masi knowledge thread so let's add to that, stay constructive, or stay out alright? :nod:

@ Rick(16vGLHS), all of us familiar with your pioneering work with the 16V Masi powerplants know that you are a stand up guy, know your stuff ,and that you have put COUNTLESS hours into promoting a platform that possibly without you may not have ever recieved attention to their performance potential.:amen: You're the guy that introduced them to me, and a few years later I introduced them to Pat M,and Todd N. heck, he's from Minnesota-who knows where the Great White North crowd even get's their electricity much less their information from:lol: You still on dial up Todd:p? (luv ya tho buddy:D)

@ Joel, for the most part, I like the direction of this thread, I'm certainly gleaning a few part numbers and ideas I would not have gotten on my own as I'm not the research-every-obscure-page-of-the-internet guy(@Reaper:wave1:) It's is fairly easy to have an engine build snowball during the course of buying parts and even easier to get buyer's remorse after spending the rent money on them-we've all done it:o IMO, that exhaust manifold is a nice piece of work, yeah, it should have been inspected a bit closer before shipping but Rick is busy raising a family and this car thing is a hobby for him,not his primary source of revenue that puts food on the kids table. If I understand what you have posted, he stood behind the work and it's no longer an issue. And yeah, I textd him asking how much he wanted for it because I know the fix would be simple and the build on my Red TC Masi would have just snowballed from 'Top end only, big valve, ported head,stock frame IHI turbo' into a 'big turbo, now it needs custom pistons/rods too' build if I had that piece. I'm glad he told me it was gonna cost me double what you paid because I have to pay rent in a few days;) So lets keep the information sharing in this thread flowing,it's a good thing for these silly little motors a few of us love:amen:

[85boostbox]

@85boost, I get that you want to defend your favorite Chevy platform-heck I get like that when someone uninitiated bashes my TC Maseratis;) This *is*a Masi knowledge thread so let's add to that, stay constructive, or stay out alright? :nod:

@ Rick(16vGLHS), all of us familiar with your pioneering work with the 16V Masi powerplants know that you are a stand up guy, know your stuff ,and that you have put COUNTLESS hours into promoting a platform that possibly without you may not have ever recieved attention to their performance potential.:amen: You're the guy that introduced them to me, and a few years later I introduced them to Pat M,and Todd N. heck, he's from Minnesota-who knows where the Great White North crowd even get's their electricity much less their information from:lol: You still on dial up Todd:p? (luv ya tho buddy:D)

@ Joel, for the most part, I like the direction of this thread, I'm certainly gleaning a few part numbers and ideas I would not have gotten on my own as I'm not the research-every-obscure-page-of-the-internet guy(@Reaper:wave1:) It's is fairly easy to have an engine build snowball during the course of buying parts and even easier to get buyer's remorse after spending the rent money on them-we've all done it:o IMO, that exhaust manifold is a nice piece of work, yeah, it should have been inspected a bit closer before shipping but Rick is busy raising a family and this car thing is a hobby for him,not his primary source of revenue that puts food on the kids table. If I understand what you have posted, he stood behind the work and it's no longer an issue. And yeah, I textd him asking how much he wanted for it because I know the fix would be simple and the build on my Red TC Masi would have just snowballed from 'Top end only, big valve, ported head,stock frame IHI turbo' into a 'big turbo, now it needs custom pistons/rods too' build if I had that piece. I'm glad he told me it was gonna cost me double what you paid because I have to pay rent in a few days;) So lets keep the information sharing in this thread flowing,it's a good thing for these silly little motors a few of us love:amen:

I don't have to defend LS engines. There "power and numbers" prove enough time and time again. I was not merely defending them either. Just waving the BS flag. Lol

[rx2mazda]

That is not a $1000 port & polish job imo.... $100 maybe. Sorry your going thru this.


What are "checks"? ;)


I wanted to clear up some things. I regards to these post, they are not from ME(Carroll)but are from my username. I won't get into the details of who else has my login and for what purpose but someone else does have my login on a couple different computers. I have changed my password so I will be the only one using my username from now on.

I joke around on here with the guys that I'm close with but, I would never post something like this on an open forum about anyones body of work. Futhermore, I have never posted in any thread that had anything to do with a Masi motor! I have 0 experience with the Masi head and have no clue what the ports look like pre or post porting. Knowing how rare these heads are and how rare performance modifications to them are, I think it would be safe to say that very few people(if any)on this forum could look at a few pictures and give an accurate assessment of the port work.

What I can vouch for is the integrity of Rick. Rick helped me out tremendously when it came to my TIII head with not only parts but also information/tips. Rick is passionate about these cars/engines and doesn't BS when it comes to them. And he for sure doesn't need to cheat anyone for $1000 as both he and Alan are Millionaires:evil:. If Rick said he "poured his heart and soul into" your head - then he did.

Hopefully this thread gets back on the right track. If your looking to build a great Masi motor then you can benefit from a few of the guys on here....Especially Rick. You definitely don't want to be in need of a part and be on S*it list of the guys that have all the Masi parts lol.

[Reaper1]

Cam seal skf 15801. CR40x52x7 HMsa7 R crosses to Honda, Toyota, and others. Didn't think this was so difficult to figure out. Hardly top secret. Look at CR part # there is your dimensions.
Had part #'s on wires like ten years ago (lol).
As far as prices on timing gears and thermostat covers, PM me if interested. We can do this off-line. Larry Carlson @ TCparts.com probably has some too.
Todd

Todd, sent ya a PM yesterday. Just dotting my t's and crossing my eyes! LOL

[iTurbo]

48230

[Reaper1]

^^ LOVE those movies!!

What other things do people want to know about?

[iTurbo]

^^ LOVE those movies!!

What other things do people want to know about?

Well, I admit I have some pretty conservative goals. At this point in my turbo Mopar life I'm all about making things look stock because I like the nostalgia aspect and a factory look. I am more than happy with stock HP output and want the "it was born there" look, like factory. I'm about to drop a bone-stock Turbo I motor back in my Omni GLH (for now..) just because I have a new appreciation for the unadulterated look/feel of the car. It will surely make less HP than it's last incarnation, but I think I will enjoy the car even more.

I would like to know about stock frame turbos and how far they can be taken. Can a stock IHI turbocharger be modded to make somewhere in the neighborhood of 300+? I'm thinking a Super 60-like upgrade that will allow me to keep using a stock exhaust manifold. I would also like to know how to properly set valve lash, and wether or not aftermarket valves are a good place to spend money, and the details regarding the valve buckets and shims. I have a new bare cylinder head here and I have a sinking feeling every time I look at it, that it's going to break me ($$) to find out what it will take to make it a runner (cams, valves, retainers, springs, locks, buckets, shims, etc...)

Another thing I really like is Group Buys on aftermarket parts. Stuff like the adjustable cam gears that Todd did, and the CNC billet thermostat outlet that Adam Lengel made. I love getting in on stuff like that. Now if only we could get a Group Buy going on an aftermarket intake manifold, like awesome ones that lengel has made for the 8v two-piece intake and the Turbo III! We need crowd funding!! And by the way, if Chris at Turbos Unleashed is reading this....what the hell happened with the valve cover gaskets?!! I was so ready to support that by publicly committing to buying four of them, just to help make it happen.

I wish I could help out more with the tech aspect and sharing info, but I am always humbled at this point and am absorbing all of the info I can get. I have a few of these motors, from proto, to stock, to wild, but I have not 'graduated' to them yet. I have built a Turbo I and Turbo III motor this year, but I'm hesitant to even start on the Masi 16v stuff until I rack up more experience points. Until then, I am hoarding all the info I can get and will throw down for just about any Masi 16v specific Group Buy.

[4 l-bodies]

...I would like to know about stock frame turbos and how far they can be taken. Can a stock IHI turbocharger be modded to make somewhere in the neighborhood of 300+? I'm thinking a Super 60-like upgrade that will allow me to keep using a stock exhaust manifold.
IMO, Jeremy the turbine side is actually pretty decent sized. The compressor side is WAY to small. Yes, the right turbo shop can make a hybrid turbo just like the t3/t4 hybrids. The other issue is the swingvalve. Sad to say but the outlet is no bigger and probably smaller than a 2-1/4" garrett.
When I had Quacks masi GLHS done the turbo centersection was made a dual ball bearing. The compressor section was from a larger frame IHI turbo. The swingvalve was heavily modified by a guy that specializes in cast iron restoration. It ultimately became a true 3" swingvalve. It rivaled anything that has been made to date. It was flame spray welded. Probably far stronger than the original swingvalve. Quacks GLHS omni went into the 11's first time out. This bolted right to the stock extrude honed exhaust manifold. Rick D. always referred to it as the "little turbo that could". We had a lot of cash tied up in it though.
In the end though, it would be way more simple to weld on a T3 Ford style flange and pick any number of turbos. I can give you a name of company that welded mine. Just because it may be a Garrett on there doesn't mean you can't make it look almost bone stock. Besides a TC guru, who is gonna know the difference?
Alan J. could steer you the right direction should you want to stay all IHI, and still make a upgrade for it. He has done that years ago on his TC's.
Todd

[Reaper1]

If you are looking for a used IHI in ok shape I'll take another look at mine. It'll need some TLC to make it able to be bolted on, but I think I remember it being good. If interested, LMK and I'll double check everything and take detailed pictures. I won't want any premium for it.

I can give you dimensions for stock buckets, but other than getting a set of spares, or having some made up it's going to be a challenge. Another option would be to borrow one with a small shim so you can figure out the lash you need and get the chromoly units from RDI. The thing is, you HAVE to know the lash and IIRC it requires using valve caps.

Aftermarket valves and springs are a good idea. The stock units are known for not holding up very well over time. The stock valve springs aren't very strong and don't like revs after a while.

To set valve lash, you need to have a bucket and shim to start with. Make sure the cam is torqued down to spec, the base circle of the cam is over the valve you want to measure, and measure the distance between the base circle and the bucket shim with feeler gauges. Once you know that and you know the shim you already have in the bucket: add the shim thickness and the measured distance, then subtract the needed lash. That number is the shim size you need for that valve.

If I forgot something, please somebody make sure I got that right.

[iTurbo]

Thanks both Reaper1 and 4 l-bodies for the information. I don't know where I'd be without the help of a handful of people on this forum; Jay, Alan, etc and especially Todd. From figuring out what the hell I have in the first place, part numbers, where to go for best machine shops, aftermarket sourcing etc....I would be lost!! I only hope that I can post a cool Project Log (or two!) centered around a Masi 16v soon for people to see and learn from and help others in the future.

[joelzip]

Buckets are 35mm diameter, shims are 31mm here are some sites that carry 31mm diameter shims, although the selection doesn't cover sizes thinner than 3.05mm which mine needed. Mine are between 2.65 and 3.20mm. You can have the shims ground at a machine shop with a surface grinder to whatever you need, so actually you could measure and buy all too thick shims then have them ground at the machine shops magnetic base surface grinder to each valves specs. I'm sure with some more research we will find the aftermarket buckets that fit these heads. I'm thinking they are vw, audi or toyota as the 31mm shims are for those buckets. Once we find the correct car we can get all the buckets we want and tap the aftermarket field for them. I doubt the titanium buckets were made just for the masi head. They are probably for another car like a supra or something.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audi-4000-Engine-Valve-Adjuster-Shim-056109564-CRP-/111191565123?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19e388a343&vxp=mtr

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/valve-clearance-discs-31mm.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-Line-KL9523-Repl-Valve-Clearance-Disc-Pack-31mm-x-3-20mm-K-Line-Tools-/400371235524

[joelzip]

I also have a factory IHI, rods, pistons and some bearings from a 70,000 mile motor if someone needs used good parts. I have had permanent piston skirt coatings applied before to ad a few thousandths to them and when the motor was apart afterwards the coating lasted. It was done at Dart Machinery here in Troy MI. I'm wondering if you could take used bearings and do the same with some of these coatings to bring them back around to spec for a rebuild.

[iTurbo]

Thanks for the info on the shims and buckets. From what I hear, there may be early and late production versions of these. I *hate* to be the one to disperse false information though, so if I'm wrong somebody can correct me here and I wouldn't get all butt hurt about it. I have a set of buckets and shims from a 16v long block that I bought on eBay a while back and I will see what they measure with the digital calipers..

I do have enough stock IHI turbochargers and rods though. No less than 3 turbos and probably 5-6 Casar rods. Unfortunatly it appears the rods can only be used in conjunction with the stock behemoth Masi 16v crankshaft because of differences with the rod journal width and bearing.

I have a set of Arias pistons here for a Masi 16v 2.0L build that appear to be coated all over. There is a black coating on the underside (oil shedding?), a graphite colored coating on the skirts that looks like a dry film lubricant similar to the TIII cams I had coated by Lone Wolf, and the tops have a light grey/white coating on them. Unfortunately no documentation came with them as far as the coating though. Sure would like to know what is what here though.

[iTurbo]

Buckets I have out of a non-common block 16v engine are also 35mm wide and about 29.50mm high. Shims are 31mm. These are from a block dated 12/10/87.

[iTurbo]

Pulled the spark plugs out of a common-block 16v engine tonight.

NGK "R" DCPR7E

Tried to remove the spark plugs out of the other 16v motors, but one was too far out of reach, and I couldn't seem to get a 13/16 or 5/8 socket to fit on the plugs on the prototype motor.

EDIT:
Pulled a spark plug out of the prototype motor using 18mm deep socket:
Champion A6YC

[vipernbox]

48230


:lol:


Best thread going!

I am about to sort out the Masi Van... and this stuff is great! Very interested in a timing belt P/N... and gota come up with something for a Vc gasket... As unfortunately my 22k mile engine needs to come apart... I think.. Compression testing shows 140 or so across the board... but I have a lot of blowby... and to top it of there is a ton of oil in the IC lines constantly from what I have to believe is the turbo... (IHI) It doesn't really smoke while running, (except occasionally at idle...).. But what the heck.. I wanted to upgrade the turbo anyway...

I have just been limping the thing through the last couple months as a work van... I had trouble with IC lines popping off... Something causing it to run pig rich... Ect... and I tell ya what... Pulling a trailer with a big sliegh on it which basically is a parachute... Huge Antlers on the van... and a full load... That little sucker still pulled like a Champ... Love this little mill!!!



Other than yeah... The turbo is way to frign small... Just put a manual boost controller on and watch how fast these things will build boost... Just off idle overboost is instant..


So as I tinker with mine... If anyone has any questions I might be able to help with.. Or can offer any help... Awesome... I am in!!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URJUuE9XK6Y

- - - Updated - - -

Oh... and the first time I pulled the plugs on my engine I had a hell of a time...

Thought I had a couple of the holes stripped... Fought it for hours... Then I figured out my socket was just to thick on those holes... :o

[iTurbo]

I will see if I can come up with a timing belt part number from one of my production motors. Hopefully somebody else happens to have a # off hand...

This prototype motor is REALLY different as far as the timing belt. Tooth shape is totally different and very deep compared to the typical square tooth found on the production motors.

[Reaper1]

Stock OEM timing belt MOPAR PN: 0442595

There are 2 versions of the buckets. I've seen them with my own eyes. I think it's the earlier ones that have the larger diameter shim. I don't think many of these got out, but from what I'm told they have a bad habit of chipping part of the rim of the bucket off.

Alan, Rick...somebody make sure I got that right.

[joelzip]

My buckets are the same dimensions and came on a newer common block motor, "35mm wide and about 29.50mm high. Shims are 31mm." Some of the other motors with shim over bucket designs are able to remove the shims completely with buckets that are set at the exact thickness. This reduces drivetrain weight and eliminates the possibility of the shims flying out under valve float. I was told the basic double spring upgrade was good to 9,500 rpm.

[iTurbo]

Tried searching the 0442595 timing belt part number at wholesalemopar.com and no luck. Searched 442595 too. Yeah, big surprise right? Damn.

I will bring up the part number next time I visit the local Mopar parts desk, but it appears to be NS1.

[joelzip]

Let me see what I get in the mail. I was told by this person that it is a goodyear belt that isn't listed in the catalogs and that he was able to get them directly from goodyear. He is a retired chrysler mechanic and owns a 16v personally. The belt was made this year 2013. I'm hoping we can find an inexpensive solution other than using new old belts. I know its a pain, but I need the specs on the belt. Can someone try to measure the correct mopar belt length and count the teeth? Maybe even a picture of the tooth profile? Once I get this new one I can post pictures.

[Reaper1]

Timing belt has been NS1 for a while IIRC.

In order to shim solid buckets from underneath you need valve caps. For some reason I'm remembering Volvo had a 16V engine that had hydraulicly adjusted buckets. I think it's the head the Ford 2.3 guys are always after.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, something else of note: the OEM MOPAR belts have "Made in Italy" on them as well.

[Ondonti]

Timing belt has been NS1 for a while IIRC.

In order to shim solid buckets from underneath you need valve caps. For some reason I'm remembering Volvo had a 16V engine that had hydraulicly adjusted buckets. I think it's the head the Ford 2.3 guys are always after.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, something else of note: the OEM MOPAR belts have "Made in Italy" on them as well.
VW 2.0 ABA 8 valve are hydraulic buckets. Probably other Vw's as well.

[4 l-bodies]

All this talk about buckets, shims, etc. and RDI already has a fix for all this! Don't like that option? Last I checked, Marty at Arizona parts also had lots of shims available for 16V Cosworth head. Can't afford these options, start doing your homework on cars in salvage yards. Over the years, there are many hydraulic bucket applications. That will be a neat trick applying to a Cosworth head. Where is the oil supply coming from? Where there is a will there is a way, but come on... You'll spend way more in fab work making that maybe work than just buying parts that are already made for this application. IMO, if can't afford these parts, perhaps you are building the wrong head. Something more mass produced like a 2.0/2.4 head instead of a head they only produced so few of.
BTW 134 tooth on masi belt.
Todd

[iTurbo]

Dang it Todd we were on our way to epic discovery!! Ha.

[Ondonti]

Or just don't complain about having to measure and shim lifters. I would rather run a solid setup in a performance application and deal with upkeep over time.

[Reaper1]

I wasn't suggesting to try and adapt hydraulic buckets to the Masi head. I don't see the need or advantage.

The thing that really sold me on this engine is that more than one person that runs them hard has said once you have the good parts in them they are pretty much "set-and-forget". Sure, you need to check valve lash every once and a while to check health of the valvetrain, but big whoop?!

[2.216VTurbo]

On factory lash settings in my experience with the motors Ive built I've discovered one thing for sure, IT'S WAY TOO LOOSE! I think their thought was to set it so that even if an owner NEVER had it checked/adjusted that the valves would not tighten up enough to hang open. IIRC (and I dont use the spec so I may not) they spec out about .012 intake and .016 Exhaust. Thats noisey and clattery at idle and with only having .335 of lift, I dont want to give up ANY lift;) Ive been setting them at .008/.010 and they are nice and quiet, prolly adds .5HP too:lol:

[GLHNSLHT2]

wish I would of known those specs 5 years or so ago. Oh well, guess when I bite the bullet on bigger cams I'll just have the base circle increased a bit :)

[joelzip]

Mine were set .014 exhaust .010 intake by Rick. I'm guessing after the valves seat and when the motor is hot they tighten up a bit. I know v8 guys always set the lash when the motor is hot. The valves grow different lengths depending on material.

[2.216VTurbo]

Mine were set .014 exhaust .010 intake by Rick. I'm guessing after the valves seat and when the motor is hot they tighten up a bit. I know v8 guys always set the lash when the motor is hot. The valves grow different lengths depending on material.

I think You're gonna hear them tapping a bit at idle even when warm. I've had the lash discussion with Rick and tho he has his own tighter than factory specs, prefers to stay closer to the factory settings than I do. It's all good, just get it running:thumb:

[Reaper1]

The only thing about setting them a little on the loose side when everything is brand new is that the valves can seat. Meaning simply that things are more in the place they want to be after a few thermal cycles and sometimes the lash will close up a bit during that process. This is "old school" thinking and practice for the most part. With newer metallurgy and closer tolerances I've heard that it's pretty rare to have to mess with lash settings.

[2.216VTurbo]

Stock exhaust valves are sh!t, that's why EVERY used one that has been checked/ground/reused is outta round:mad: I swap them out for the plus 1/plus .5 RDI REV valves. Ive never had an issue with one of those:)

[vipernbox]

So valves are something I should put on the list whilst it is apart?

I'll have to see if Rick will sell me the hot ticket valves while I have it apart. I have been dying to put my old Sioux grinder to work. :)

[4 l-bodies]

Yeah easy to check doing leakdown test. One of my exhaust valves was not doing well. That is par for the course on these Masi heads.
Todd

[Reaper1]

I just got the stock cam specs from Rick. Todd should be able to confirm these numbers.

"According to WebCams when they tested my stock cams, they came up with a peak (factory) lift of .338" and 210 duration @ .050"

"According to my notes from Todd when he used the cam Dr. on my cams:
Peak Lift: .335"
Exhaust centerline: 113.25
Lash (cold) .015"

I hope I'm not stepping on toes by posting this. I don't think I am, but if so, LMK and I'll rectify it ASAP.
I have the FSM for this engine as well, so I can post the stock valve lash as well as the factory instructions for setting the lash.

[2.216VTurbo]

I just got the stock cam specs from Rick. Todd should be able to confirm these numbers.

"According to WebCams when they tested my stock cams, they came up with a peak (factory) lift of .338" and 210 duration @ .050"

"According to my notes from Todd when he used the cam Dr. on my cams:
Peak Lift: .335"
Exhaust centerline: 113.25
Lash (cold) .015"

I hope I'm not stepping on toes by posting this. I don't think I am, but if so, LMK and I'll rectify it ASAP.
I have the FSM for this engine as well, so I can post the stock valve lash as well as the factory instructions for setting the lash.


Stepping on toes?? We're info sharing in this thread:amen: .335, yep. 113, uh huh, thats the magic spot to centerline the cams if you have the adjustable gears. .015, nice and 'clattery' at that spec;)

[Ondonti]

I just got the stock cam specs from Rick. Todd should be able to confirm these numbers.

"According to WebCams when they tested my stock cams, they came up with a peak (factory) lift of .338" and 210 duration @ .050"

"According to my notes from Todd when he used the cam Dr. on my cams:
Peak Lift: .335"
Exhaust centerline: 113.25
Lash (cold) .015"

I hope I'm not stepping on toes by posting this. I don't think I am, but if so, LMK and I'll rectify it ASAP.
I have the FSM for this engine as well, so I can post the stock valve lash as well as the factory instructions for setting the lash.

I have my questions about the duration @ .050 because 4 valve heads have small valves which means smaller cam profiles and 210 @ .050" would seem like a pretty aggressive camshaft (though lift @ .050 does not mean there is much action above that lift point). Peak lift lets you know how much clearance you need for your valve springs but I would still assume a stock camshaft is very mild. Chris, Delta Cams is local (Tacoma) and they might be interested but you should be able to figure out the same thing with a degree kit (borrow mine if you need it). I know Delta will do a cam for you AND they weld cam lobes for cheap from what I have been told (my cam guy hates doing that so he charges 100 per lobe). That means you could go bigger without losing material. Shim on bucket probably has more wear issues and I think welded lobes would last longer then reground and heat treated...if that is even an issue.

I have run a motor that called out .008 and .010 lash at .002 and .004 and that motor had no clearance change between hot and cold (rocker style, not shim on bucket). I think a lot of valve lash setting knowledge in the U.S. comes from pushrod motors. The fact that you might have to check and adjust lash often would apply the most to an old slider cam pushrod v8 where you have huge clearance changes as the pushrod expands with heat (closing lash) and wear on the cam opening up lash. The nastier the cam, the faster the lash opens up. Even roller setups that are aggressive will see lash #'s change more quickly with nasty cams. Shim on bucket probably closes up clearances as the valve gets longer and the lifter gets longer with heat expansion.

I would measure cold then get her real hot (hotter then your thermostat wants) and see what the lash closes down to. Then set it barely higher then that. IMO, factory lash settings are meant for every one of the motors they made to avoid every possible problem. I agree they never wanted to have a car come into service for valves hanging open.

[joelzip]

I read some about web cams and the reviews were all over the place. Alot of lobes were wiped out. Maybe for a race car, but a car that puts miles on may have a life expectancy. I would love to see a billet cam made, I wonder how much that would cost? Its not like they have cam cores laying around for one of these...

[2.216VTurbo]

I read some about web cams and the reviews were all over the place. Alot of lobes were wiped out. Maybe for a race car, but a car that puts miles on may have a life expectancy. I would love to see a billet cam made, I wonder how much that would cost? Its not like they have cam cores laying around for one of these...

You sure about that;)?

[GLHNSLHT2]

ok, alan, where'd you get that

[joelzip]

Is that ground yet? Look at the duration! The roundness of the ramp peak is crazy.

[Reaper1]

I have my questions about the duration @ .050 because 4 valve heads have small valves which means smaller cam profiles and 210 @ .050" would seem like a pretty aggressive camshaft (though lift @ .050 does not mean there is much action above that lift point). Peak lift lets you know how much clearance you need for your valve springs but I would still assume a stock camshaft is very mild. Chris, Delta Cams is local (Tacoma) and they might be interested but you should be able to figure out the same thing with a degree kit (borrow mine if you need it). I know Delta will do a cam for you AND they weld cam lobes for cheap from what I have been told (my cam guy hates doing that so he charges 100 per lobe). That means you could go bigger without losing material. Shim on bucket probably has more wear issues and I think welded lobes would last longer then reground and heat treated...if that is even an issue.

I have run a motor that called out .008 and .010 lash at .002 and .004 and that motor had no clearance change between hot and cold (rocker style, not shim on bucket). I think a lot of valve lash setting knowledge in the U.S. comes from pushrod motors. The fact that you might have to check and adjust lash often would apply the most to an old slider cam pushrod v8 where you have huge clearance changes as the pushrod expands with heat (closing lash) and wear on the cam opening up lash. The nastier the cam, the faster the lash opens up. Even roller setups that are aggressive will see lash #'s change more quickly with nasty cams. Shim on bucket probably closes up clearances as the valve gets longer and the lifter gets longer with heat expansion.

I would measure cold then get her real hot (hotter then your thermostat wants) and see what the lash closes down to. Then set it barely higher then that. IMO, factory lash settings are meant for every one of the motors they made to avoid every possible problem. I agree they never wanted to have a car come into service for valves hanging open.

Yeah, I agree 100% they set the lash up from the factory to be loose so that the layman that never got their car serviced wouldn't have issues. On my Honda Shadow 750 it was still where you had to set the lash. I really only "set" it once. I checked it again, but it was in tolerance and I ran it a little on the tight side. The "rule of thumb" for that engine was if the valves were quiet you needed to check the lash. I can verify this on the exhaust side 100%.

I agree that the lash adjustments and settings were based on older metallurgy that wasn't as good or stable as the materials we use today, which back then wold have been really high dollar racing stuff.

My lash specs the way they sit right now are:
intake = 0.011"-0.0095"
exhaust = 0.015"-0.013"

If I wanted to get more picky about it I'd have to either source cups the exact thickness needed, or get thicker ones ground. I'm not comfortable doing either, and if I go that far, then I'm going to spend the $$$$ and get the chromoly buckets that use the valve caps. Yeah it's expensive and it's not the easiest thing in the world to set up, but you loose a LOT of valvetrain weight and no more shims.

Brent, I'd LOVE to get this thing on a degree wheel. At some point I'll have adjustable cam gears one way or another.

To give an idea on our stock cam specs versus a common "performance" cam that seems to work very well.
This is the specs for Kelford 272/272 cams (there are other 272 cams out there, this one has all the advertised specs that I could list). These are for Mitsubishi Evo IX cars. Yes, they use rockers, so I'm going to try and find some Honda or VW or Mazda (they all use cam-over-bucket designed heads just like the Masi) cams as well. The problem with Honda cams is that typically they run the 2 different lobes due to VTEC.

Kelford Mitsubishi Evo IX 272/272 cams:
Intake:
Rocker Ratio
1.73

Net Valve Lift
11.000mm = 0.433"

Advertised Duration @ 0.10mm Valve Lift (0.004")
272

Duration @ 1.00mm Valve Lift (0.04")
226

Timing @ 1.00mm Valve Lift (0.04")

IVO:
17 AtdC / IVC 63 ABDC

Suggested Centerline Lines
130 AtdC

Valve Lift @ TDC (I'm pretty sure this is how far the valves will be open if the cams are degree'd per spec)
0.23mm (0.009")

Exhaust:
Rocker Ratio
1.73

Net Valve Lift
11.000mm (0.433")

Advertised Duration @ 0.10mm Valve Lift (0.004")
272

Duration @ 1.00mm Valve Lift (0.04")
226

Timing @ 1.00mm Valve Lift (0.04")
EVO: 46 BBDC / EVC: 0 BtdC

Suggested Centerline Lines
113 BtdC

Valve Lift @ TDC
1.00mm (0.04")

As you can see, these cams are more aggressive than ours

I found some VW cam specs that are pretty interesting. I don't know if these are stock, but looking at the numbers I'd think so. I think this is what could be considered an "aggressive" stock cam. It's listed as a VW KR engine cam set. It's important to note that these cams are hydraulic lash adjusted. The KR engine is a 1.8L 16V engine making at about 136hp (according to conversion from 102KW) or 139hp depending on where the source is from (seems the guys "down under" got a little less power). They can rev, too (7,000rpm+ depending on cams and intestinal fortitude).
STOCK VW KR cams:
Intake:

Duration @ 0.040"
212

Duration @ 0.050"
207

Total cam lift:
9.6mm (0.378")

IVO/IVC @ 1.00mm lift (0.040"):
3* ATDC/35* ABDC

exhaust
Duration @ 0.040"
226

Duration @ 0.050"
215

Cam total lift:
10.3mm (0.406")

EVO/EVC @ 1.00mm lift (0.040"):
43*BBDC/3*BTDC

Techtronics has a set of cams they call 288 cams, but their specs don't reflect that, unless they used the 1mm lift point to get that duration:
Duration @ 0.050" lift:
254°

Total lift:
.456" lift,

Lobe center:
105° lobe center

Then there's the Schrick cams. These are pretty wild as far as cam-over-bucket 16V cams are concerned from everything I've seen. There's not a ton of info on these at the site I found them at, but it gives a reference point:
Duration:
300*

Total lift:
.500" lift (12.7mm) (36mm Base circle)

I also found an article outlining the installation of aftermarket cams in a Mazda Miata 1.6L engine. Something to note is that they had to relieve the bucket bores as I've seen on Rick's GLHS http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1113/111355_7lo.jpg. They accomplished this using a die grinder (according to the article), but the head was completely disassembled in order to do this (for obvious reasons). The cams were made by Tighe. These are considered "race" cams and on the dyno saw lost power in the low/mid range, however this is probably a tuning issue along with the fact they indicated it's a lower compression NA engine. It is a race car that revs above 5,000rpm most of the time. Raw specs are:
Duration:
232* @ 0.050"

Total lift:
0.400"

I'll try to find more that are relevant to our heads.

Here, take a look at Brian Crower cams for the Nissan RB26. Now, true, they have more displacement and 2 more cylinders to work with, but the cam specs aren't that much more aggressive than what we are seeing for our stock cams. The 2JZ cams are similar.

Brian Crower Stage 2+ RB26 cams:
Intake:
Advertised duration:
262*

Duration @ 0.050":
230*

Lift:
0.360"

Lash:
.009"

Exhaust:
Advertised Duration:
264*

Duration @ 0.050":
232*

Lift:
0.362"

Lash:
0.011"

Brian Crower Toyota 3SGTE Stage 2 and Stage 3 cams respectively. These are probably the closest of all the engines I've looked at that match our cams.
BC 3SGTE Stage 2:
Advertised Duration:
264*

Duration @ .050":
216*

Lift:
0.344"

BC 3SGTE Stage 3:
Advertised Duration:
272*

Duration:
222*

Lift:
0.400"

For comparison BC lists the stock 3SGTE cam specs at:
Advertised Duration:
256*

Duration @ 0.50":
204*

Lift:
0.335"

According to Wiki and another site the most powerful version of this engine in consumer form was a JDM version making about 255hp @6200rpm. There were also a couple of consumer versions that spun up to 7500rpm (guessing redline was about 8,000). In "race" form (who knows what all they did to accomplish this) for LeMans they made about 670hp @8500rpm. Point being is that our cam specs aren't that far off and seem to be inline with other stock cam-on-bucket designs that are known to rev pretty well. This isn't to say there isn't more power to be had by getting bigger cams, but it does show that stock cams can make decent power and spin pretty hard.


I read some about web cams and the reviews were all over the place. Alot of lobes were wiped out. Maybe for a race car, but a car that puts miles on may have a life expectancy. I would love to see a billet cam made, I wonder how much that would cost? Its not like they have cam cores laying around for one of these...

Wiped lobes could be many different things. I had a cam that had a flaking lobe, but from what I understand this is "normal" for these heads. It can be repaired just the same as the TIII cams can be.

The VW cams I listed are both billet cams and their going rate was $600 and $1000 for the set respectively. This is what I would expect to pay if I were to go after billet cams.


You sure about that;)?

I'd also like to know where you found that, how much it cost, and if there are any more (if you are willing to reveal that information)?

BTW, Rick told me that when he made his fastest run with his GLHS before the new head, cams, ect. he went through the traps at 128mph in 3rd gear with 24.5" tall slicks, and a 3.85 FD A555. If I did my math right (I was a little intoxicated last night due to new years LOL) this equates to about 8600rpm on the stock cams. He told me it was still pulling. I don't know what turbo, but it was a T3/T4 (dunno any other specs). From what I've seen with the Evo's, VW, Mazda, Nissan, and NSRT-4 guys, this seems totally plausible.

[joelzip]

Not too off subject but what did you guys use for a cal on these motors? Should I contact boost button or fwd? I have an 89 horizon and a 90 sbec turbo mini harness I want to use on it.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I'll be using a flashable SMEC and tuning it myself, was hoping by now boost button would of had the 16v SMEC cal broken down so I'd at least have a baseline or something to look at.

[vipernbox]

I had Rob work me up a sbec cal. I ain't perfectly dialed in just yet. He based it on the vnt cal.

Anyone else running a masi on sbec?

[Reaper1]

I'm still in the air on this, too.

Rick likes the F.A.S.T system. I looked at it again the other night, but it's much like MoTEC where when you buy the system you only get the base system. If you want other stuff you have to buy it. Supposedly Mike Stimac runs this system as well (though the pictures I have of the engine bay from SDAC-21 shows a stock SMEC in the car which I remember Mike saying it was socketed). Not really my cup-o-tea, though.

I've already got a socketed SMEC, so that's really high on my list. The problem is that I still don't really understand how to mess with it, even after reading and watching tutorials many times over. I really need a sit-down class from a really knowledgeable person. The biggest reasons for sticking with the stock electronics: already have the main hardware, car is already wired for it, superior knock control compared to aftermarket ECM's (at least affordable ones not on the professional level).

Mega Squirt 3 with expansion card. This is on my list because it has a huge bang for the buck, it has a LOT of support, it's easy to use (from just seeing it used in person, it can support coil-near-plug, it uses common sensors, and just simply has so many options and possibilities it's hard not to seriously consider it. There are a LOT of very high powered cars with engines that cost as much as a new King Ranch running this system, so it clearly is trusted by these people to not blow that engine sky high. The cost isn't very high compared to other systems.

AEM Infinity. After really looking at it, it really is a great system. I honestly don't know if it's got enough time to be out to have any kind of track record (no pun intended, but it works!), but knowing that the older system is very successful I think the Infinity is worth a look. It has tons of options and you don't have to buy "expansions" to use the entire system. It also uses standard sensors that you can get just about anywhere. It has an interface that is fairly easy to use (if it's anything like the older AEM system) and is widely supported.

I've pretty much narrowed it down to those 3 options. Anybody else have input regarding this?

[85boostbox]

Let me get on my computer. Will PM you Chris on what I think to go off of the other day.

[cordes]

I'm still in the air on this, too.

Rick likes the F.A.S.T system. I looked at it again the other night, but it's much like MoTEC where when you buy the system you only get the base system. If you want other stuff you have to buy it. Supposedly Mike Stimac runs this system as well (though the pictures I have of the engine bay from SDAC-21 shows a stock SMEC in the car which I remember Mike saying it was socketed). Not really my cup-o-tea, though.

I've already got a socketed SMEC, so that's really high on my list. The problem is that I still don't really understand how to mess with it, even after reading and watching tutorials many times over. I really need a sit-down class from a really knowledgeable person. The biggest reasons for sticking with the stock electronics: already have the main hardware, car is already wired for it, superior knock control compared to aftermarket ECM's (at least affordable ones not on the professional level).

Mega Squirt 3 with expansion card. This is on my list because it has a huge bang for the buck, it has a LOT of support, it's easy to use (from just seeing it used in person, it can support coil-near-plug, it uses common sensors, and just simply has so many options and possibilities it's hard not to seriously consider it. There are a LOT of very high powered cars with engines that cost as much as a new King Ranch running this system, so it clearly is trusted by these people to not blow that engine sky high. The cost isn't very high compared to other systems.

AEM Infinity. After really looking at it, it really is a great system. I honestly don't know if it's got enough time to be out to have any kind of track record (no pun intended, but it works!), but knowing that the older system is very successful I think the Infinity is worth a look. It has tons of options and you don't have to buy "expansions" to use the entire system. It also uses standard sensors that you can get just about anywhere. It has an interface that is fairly easy to use (if it's anything like the older AEM system) and is widely supported.

I've pretty much narrowed it down to those 3 options. Anybody else have input regarding this?

If you leave cost out the stock electronics don't come anywhere close to even a really old version of FAST or the new MS3 stuff. I've seen both in action and they're way better for the end user than the stock stuff is right now. AEM is what Aaron M. uses, and I think that speaks for itself as far as capability, but I haven't seen it used in person.

Once you factor in the full cost of each system, along with setup time and learning curve I think the stock electronics win out for a lot of folks. Nothing to rewire, tons of support, and the learning curve really isn't too bad if you actually understand how EFI works. A flashable SBEC with a cal from Rob and cable is what, $400? That's a pretty low price of entry.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Was on sale last month for $200. Think it's like $235 regularly.

[johnl]

Wow, ya go on vacation and ya miss everything! Great thread. Should be on the road to the SoCal SDAC meeting but started reading this thread . . . .. sorry, Mr. Jones.

And I would add, IMO, a loose valve is happy valve. They love that clickety clack.

[cordes]

Was on sale last month for $200. Think it's like $235 regularly.

Holy cow! I thought that was without a core charge. What a deal for that. I'm sorry, but when price is factored that can't be beaten for all but the most extreme builds IMO.

[joelzip]

Sooooo at this point only Rick has an operating smec cal for pushing over 400 horse out of one of these?

[85boostbox]

Honestly ms2 extra is extremely versatile with what you would want. It also has knock control now. I think I priced one out and it came to around 600 or 700 dollars. Plus what is nice about megasquirt is the ease of using different sensors. Since some of our sensors are becoming more difficult to find or unobtainium. So that is the nice thing about standalone system.

[Ondonti]

Chris, I have no idea what the powerband is on the stock masi. Google doesn't even show any rpms for peak torque or HP. No idea on the OEM redline. Its possible that Chrysler built a pile of garbage package onto a nice motor. Torque higher then HP might just be due to the turbocharger being so small and exhaust/intake being so restrictive etc.

But regarding cams, what I am getting at is that duration @ .05" lift does not tell you if a camshaft is really very aggressive. A. Graham Bell in his book "4 Stroke Performance Tuning" compares various cams with the same ADV duration, .similar .050 duration, and vastly different .1, .2, .3 etc durations. ADV means advertised and I use that word literally, like its an advertisement. People sometimes simply measure ADV from different lifts (.003 vs .004 etc) to manipulate numbers, and other times they purposely grind a cam with an early ramp (which is meant to smoothly take up lash for longevity, something solid rollers don't give a darn about) and then lame profile just to get the big ADV numbers to make sales. This voodoo is very common in the catalog cam market. Grinders even do this for custom cams so you think you have something fun and the grinder doesn't have to hear complains of how the car runs at low rpms or how the valvetrain failed because it was not upgraded.

Take a "hot" cam @ .050" and then measure duration @ .1 and .2 and .3 and .4 etc. If you see a cam that has a high peak lift but short duration at high lift, you have another style of fraud camshaft. The most fraudulent hot cams have large ADV durations and big peak lift, but short duration at large lifts.

These differences in cams are most simply seen with v8 pushrod hydraulic slider cams vs hydraulic roller vs solid roller. Solid Roller cams (what I am looking to get a set of in the future) have such aggressive profiles (even if the numbers seem weak) that they will sometimes collapse hydraulic lifters because of the extreme forces applied. If the Masi is already a solid lifter and you have access to shims, you can get a much hotter cam then with a hydraulic lifter (certain VWs). Those solid roller cams will beat up your valves, seats, retainers, locks etc. They will require parts being replaced if you want to be a responsible owner.
You watch a lot of those old Pinks episodes and see that almost every car is listed having solid rollers and they do that because they pretend to bring junk and they have some uber hot solid roller cams on a junky looking motor. They over cam the motors to overcome even "poor" seeming heads. Grudge racing trickery.

If a stock Masi cam makes power out to 8000 with mild mods, then its not a killer. I have seen a guy make 750whp on stock 6g72 dohc cams while others change cams before hitting 400hp. He probably could have made 900-1000 with big cams but he wanted a lower rpm powerband and used E98 fuel to move the powerband to the left (more exhaust energy to spool much earlier). I don't know about our transmissions shifting at high rpms levels with stock electronics.

Frank from T-M taught me to look at camshafts primarily for being the main determinant in the peak RPM HP of my engine. Therefore I would choose a camshaft that peaks near the rpm I want and then decide if I want to give up some low end gains for top end power. I would then match my intake manifold and exhaust manifold and even head porting to the rpm I chose for the camshafts to peak at.

BTW to me the Kelford cams are famous for not scaring people away over actually being aggressive. The Evo already peaks high enough that most customers want camshafts to say they have them rather then really build a high rpm screamer. Some of those VW cams are realistically bad boy cams. 288 ADV duration can be a baby cam on a fraud profile or a big bad nasty cam when it has aggressive ramp rates. To me a small ADV duration and big .050" duration leads me to believe the profile COULD be very aggressive if you consider the rate of lift increase. The beauty of 4 valve heads is you don't need an aggressive cam to get power up into the high rpms. It helps but you don't need it. You don't need massive duration and lift because a 300cfm intake port with a 550cc cylinder functions much better then a "hot" 300 cfm 2 valve domestic port with 900cc per cylinder.

[joelzip]

Well, I'm pretty excited. I think the belt is correct,GOODYEAR Part # 40120 More Info Width: 1.0"; Length: 50.250"; Teeth: 134 . Made in 2013! Here is proof! I took one for the team @ $55 but now see they can be had for less than $20!

[joelzip]

Another question? Can't we use offset timing gear keys instead of adjustable gears?

[vipernbox]

Well, I'm pretty excited. I think the belt is correct,GOODYEAR Part # 40120 More Info Width: 1.0"; Length: 50.250"; Teeth: 134 . Made in 2013! Here is proof! I took one for the team @ $55 but now see they can be had for less than $20!


NICE!


Where did ya buy from? I see a couple different places.... but...



Googling that shows Dayco/Gates ect part numbers also....


Shows also the Alfa Milano 2.5 V6... with a very similar belt.. Or a 1993 Alfa 164 with the 3.0L engine...

Gates part T120 or Dayco 95120 ACdelco TB120


I Just order the Gates belt... I'll Let ya know when it gets here. :D

[joelzip]

Ebay has the goodyear belts for I think $17. Please let me know how the belt works as I don't have a complete engine to put this on yet. I bought the belt from an older individual that had a Chrysler repair shop. He owns one of these motors personally and told me they used these belts as an interchange on the 16 valve masi motors when the OEM belts weren't in stock. I still want to know for sure if this thing works before we go nuts over the discovery.

[Reaper1]

Let me get on my computer. Will PM you Chris on what I think to go off of the other day.

Thanks! I appreciate the input!


Holy cow! I thought that was without a core charge. What a deal for that. I'm sorry, but when price is factored that can't be beaten for all but the most extreme builds IMO.

I'd consider my build pretty "extreme". Looking to make ~750hp (crank) around 8000rpm (8500 redline) and do it for extended lengths of time. There are some peripherals that I still need to build or buy to make this a real possibility (intake manifold is one item), but that is my end goal.


Sooooo at this point only Rick has an operating smec cal for pushing over 400 horse out of one of these?

Nope. I'm fairly sure Mike Stimac is running a SMEC and he's making around 450hp if I remember what he told me correctly. The picture I have of his engine at SDAC21 and it has a SMEC in the stock location in that picture.


Chris, I have no idea what the powerband is on the stock masi. Google doesn't even show any rpms for peak torque or HP. No idea on the OEM redline. Its possible that Chrysler built a pile of garbage package onto a nice motor. Torque higher then HP might just be due to the turbocharger being so small and exhaust/intake being so restrictive etc.

But regarding cams, what I am getting at is that duration @ .05" lift does not tell you if a camshaft is really very aggressive. A. Graham Bell in his book "4 Stroke Performance Tuning" compares various cams with the same ADV duration, .similar .050 duration, and vastly different .1, .2, .3 etc durations. ADV means advertised and I use that word literally, like its an advertisement. People sometimes simply measure ADV from different lifts (.003 vs .004 etc) to manipulate numbers, and other times they purposely grind a cam with an early ramp (which is meant to smoothly take up lash for longevity, something solid rollers don't give a darn about) and then lame profile just to get the big ADV numbers to make sales. This voodoo is very common in the catalog cam market. Grinders even do this for custom cams so you think you have something fun and the grinder doesn't have to hear complains of how the car runs at low rpms or how the valvetrain failed because it was not upgraded.

Take a "hot" cam @ .050" and then measure duration @ .1 and .2 and .3 and .4 etc. If you see a cam that has a high peak lift but short duration at high lift, you have another style of fraud camshaft. The most fraudulent hot cams have large ADV durations and big peak lift, but short duration at large lifts.

These differences in cams are most simply seen with v8 pushrod hydraulic slider cams vs hydraulic roller vs solid roller. Solid Roller cams (what I am looking to get a set of in the future) have such aggressive profiles (even if the numbers seem weak) that they will sometimes collapse hydraulic lifters because of the extreme forces applied. If the Masi is already a solid lifter and you have access to shims, you can get a much hotter cam then with a hydraulic lifter (certain VWs). Those solid roller cams will beat up your valves, seats, retainers, locks etc. They will require parts being replaced if you want to be a responsible owner.
You watch a lot of those old Pinks episodes and see that almost every car is listed having solid rollers and they do that because they pretend to bring junk and they have some uber hot solid roller cams on a junky looking motor. They over cam the motors to overcome even "poor" seeming heads. Grudge racing trickery.

If a stock Masi cam makes power out to 8000 with mild mods, then its not a killer. I have seen a guy make 750whp on stock 6g72 dohc cams while others change cams before hitting 400hp. He probably could have made 900-1000 with big cams but he wanted a lower rpm powerband and used E98 fuel to move the powerband to the left (more exhaust energy to spool much earlier). I don't know about our transmissions shifting at high rpms levels with stock electronics.

Frank from T-M taught me to look at camshafts primarily for being the main determinant in the peak RPM HP of my engine. Therefore I would choose a camshaft that peaks near the rpm I want and then decide if I want to give up some low end gains for top end power. I would then match my intake manifold and exhaust manifold and even head porting to the rpm I chose for the camshafts to peak at.

BTW to me the Kelford cams are famous for not scaring people away over actually being aggressive. The Evo already peaks high enough that most customers want camshafts to say they have them rather then really build a high rpm screamer. Some of those VW cams are realistically bad boy cams. 288 ADV duration can be a baby cam on a fraud profile or a big bad nasty cam when it has aggressive ramp rates. To me a small ADV duration and big .050" duration leads me to believe the profile COULD be very aggressive if you consider the rate of lift increase. The beauty of 4 valve heads is you don't need an aggressive cam to get power up into the high rpms. It helps but you don't need it. You don't need massive duration and lift because a 300cfm intake port with a 550cc cylinder functions much better then a "hot" 300 cfm 2 valve domestic port with 900cc per cylinder.

Thanks for the input, Brent! I really do appreciate it. Cams are not one of my strong points simply because I never really dealt with them or had a build that I had to really think about it.

I do agree that the build of the head should work around the intended power and rpm, which directly correlate to cam design.

[Reaper1]

Oh, something I'm curious about: does the Masi engine set-up suffer from similar cooling issues as the 8V and TIII? It seems to me that the position of the thermostat would suggest "no", but does anybody have data on this? Cooling is VERY important for my goals.

[joelzip]

Even more interesting Reaper, I was going through your old pictures and found the one on the right, My picture is on the left........Did Rick sell me your old manifold? This was the defected one I sent back...Did you ever run it with the hole in the side?

[joelzip]

Interesting photos for you guys that haven't seen them. Looks like im on the bandwagon of a larger plenum. Also looks like Mike used a t25 flange on his setup, no spacer. Says TU did the smec cal. Does anyone have his contact info? I would like to grill him on his setup!

http://www.csracer.com/mikestimac/16v.html

[Reaper1]

Rick never touched my manifold. I only bought the spacer from him and bought the turbo flange elsewhere. I don't even have it welded up yet because I'm still in the air on using the stock manifold with the spacer and flange or build my own equal length header out of stainless with the flanges.

[Reaper1]

I know for fact that's not a T25 flange on Mike's car. He's running a GT3076. Also, if you look at Mike's manifold, he spaced the turbo out from the engine using a thick spacer and then the flange all on the turbo side. Also notice that the turbo is not in the same position that most of us are putting it in. It's more centered to the original turbo port hole.

[joelzip]

Oh, I just see pictures of that exact manifold I had in your photobucket account, thats all. http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rcktsrgn/library/?sort=3&page=7
I'm not saying it is, but you can get agt3076 with a t25 housing. I don't see any spacer between the head and the manifold in his picture either.

[glhs727]

Interesting photos for you guys that haven't seen them. Looks like im on the bandwagon of a larger plenum. Also looks like Mike used a t25 flange on his setup, no spacer. Says TU did the smec cal. Does anyone have his contact info? I would like to grill him on his setup!

http://www.csracer.com/mikestimac/16v.html


Mike Stimac is running a FAST system standlone, and has been for several years now.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Pics are old on that site, but that's not a normal GT30R if it is even one at all. If anything it might just be shoved in smaller housings. Here's my GT30R mounted with an angle cut to the manfiold to turbo flange and then a t3 flange welded on.

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/379770_3722233869817_1272507475_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1521644_3722228869692_341936589_n.jpg

The compressor housing is very close to the starter but it doesn't touch.

[Reaper1]

Oh, I just see pictures of that exact manifold I had in your photobucket account, thats all. http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rcktsrgn/library/?sort=3&page=7
I'm not saying it is, but you can get agt3076 with a t25 housing. I don't see any spacer between the head and the manifold in his picture either.

I haven't really looked, but it seems pretty counterintuative to run a T25 turbine housing on a GT30 compressor. Even if you have a HUGE clip on the turbine wheel the housing is going to choke the crap out of the engine in no time. Plus, I don't even know that there's enough meat in a T25 housing to machine it for a GT exhaust wheel. If it's not a GT exhaust wheel, then it has to be either a large stage T3 wheel or a large clipped T25 wheel. Again...why!? The shafts for both of those are smaller than a GT. The only advantage is spool time. Mike's car is a road race/time attack car. The engine spends most of its time in the upper rpm range where having a larger housing and wheel won't really hurt and with the GT being DBB the transient response time is minimal.

Somebody PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!

There is no spacer between the head and his manifold. He spaced the turbo out on the exit side of the manifold. And, like I stated before, he centered the turbo over the original exit hole, which moves the turbo over a little compared to where most of us are putting it.


Mike Stimac is running a FAST system standlone, and has been for several years now.

Thanks! I didn't know that and if he told me he was switching I didn't remember. That system is still too rich for my blood considering the other options that are out there today.


Pics are old on that site, but that's not a normal GT30R if it is even one at all. If anything it might just be shoved in smaller housings. Here's my GT30R mounted with an angle cut to the manfiold to turbo flange and then a t3 flange welded on.

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/379770_3722233869817_1272507475_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1521644_3722228869692_341936589_n.jpg

The compressor housing is very close to the starter but it doesn't touch.

He might be running the "B" housing, which is smaller than the "E" housing.

[GLHNSLHT2]

There is no spacer between the head and his manifold. He spaced the turbo out on the exit side of the manifold. And, like I stated before, he centered the turbo over the original exit hole, which moves the turbo over a little compared to where most of us are putting it.

most of us are putting it? I centered mine on the original exit hole side to side? Why would you offset it to the side??

[Reaper1]

most of us are putting it? I centered mine on the original exit hole side to side? Why would you offset it to the side??

There are 2 reasons that I think I remember:
1- less "porting" to do once you get the flange and brace/filler welded on
2- downpipe/swingvalve loction and turbo inlet location in relation to all the crap on the driver's side of the firewall

[joelzip]

I was told it was to balance the exhaust because of a lean condition on one of the cylinders. I would suspect its more of the intakes fault. The way the two outside cylinders fire at each other would lead me to believe moving the outlet a 1/2" would have a negligible effect. I thought the exhaust downpipe was the tight side anyway?

[Reaper1]

Honestly, I really don't know about if one of the cylinders has a lean condition problem. I am hoping to use individual EGT's and data log while tuning. With how much power I'm looking for and for the amount to time I want to run the engine that hard, this is going to be VERY important. Once I get the tune dialed in, then I'll just run one EGT on the turbine inlet to monitor overall engine health. Of course a WBO2 will be used, but not individual ones simply because that would just chew up expensive sensors. That kind of thing is usually reserved for engine dyno testing with companies that can afford the high end type of sensors that requires.

The whole area behind the engine is tight. I've addressed this issue and should have plenty of room for the downpipe at least. I'm working on the intake side. I figure if L-body guys can fit 4" intakes, so can I.

[joelzip]

Food for thought, the original intake plenum " not including runners" is about 1.84 liters. Most performance turbocharged 4 cylinder cars are around 1.25 to 1.5 times the engine size. Soooo I'm aiming for 2.75-3.3 liters. Happens to work out to about a 3.5" round tube same length as the original plenum. My intake had an accident.... I will also be selling my throttle body I bought from Rick if someone is interested discounted from what I paid.

[GLHNSLHT2]

hehe mine had an accident like that before I sent it to rick for porting :) That being said, put it in the car 1st before you go welding on it. The stock setup is very close to the rad and it's fan, it's also very close to the hood at least on my 87 ShelbyZ. It's going to be a tight fit to use a stock rad and ac. I even went to a full size T1 radiator to move the filler neck and fan more out of the way. I'm still working on how big of a plenum I can get in there and where I'm going to mount my TB. Here's how mine is cut so far. I plan on boxing it in as big as I can go with 1/4" plate.

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/1000778_3196196119202_1413934549_n.jpg

[85boostbox]

If you're looking for max efficiency out of a intake I have researched and have a plenum shape and designs drawn out on my computer that seemingly gives EVEN flow to all cylinders according to model programs. Send me a PM or a text Joel if you're interested. I could even bring the measurements to you on paper so you could build straight from. Let me know.

Paul

[joelzip]

The horizon I bought is supposed to be delivered today. Let me pull the head off it and plop the masi head on for reference. I need to see what room I am working with for the intake / exhaust first before any designs come to mind.

[2.216VTurbo]

For packaging into an L body you might want to think about moving the TB to the other side of the intake, makes IC tubing an easier fit:thumb:

[joelzip]

But the ac compressor is in the way...I have dreams of getting the a/c on but I don't think its a reality in that body. If the a/c is never going to happen I would definitely consider swapping the TB to the left end.

[85boostbox]

If I were you I would start with a new intake completely if you want to keep your ac

[Reaper1]

If you're looking for max efficiency out of a intake I have researched and have a plenum shape and designs drawn out on my computer that seemingly gives EVEN flow to all cylinders according to model programs. Send me a PM or a text Joel if you're interested. I could even bring the measurements to you on paper so you could build straight from. Let me know.

Paul

Would you mind sending me some of that info as well? I've got some ideas on what I'd like to do, but I'm curious if any of them are close to what models show would work well.

I intend on keeping A/C in my car as well. I'm addressing the clearance issue between the intake and radiator in a way not many other TM people have done that I've personally seen. It should also open up options for intake design as well. It really depends on some of the other things I want to do for the cooling and aero of the car.

[85boostbox]

PM your email please. I am in the process of opening a performance shop and don't want my ideas out there until my shop possibly opens. Hope you understand. I don't mind sharing with a few people but not just everybody.

Paul

[vipernbox]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/07/6u7e7aju.jpg



Long as the 134 tooth count is right this belt looks like it will work great

[joelzip]

I counted 134 on mine! bye the way, the factory masi intake will never fit an omni. I guess I'm the only one attempting this? I either have to remove the cross brace that has the hood latch and move the radiator forward or make the intake super narrow. I will post pictures tomorrow. Lots of room in the back though!

[vipernbox]

Yep. You have to move the rad at the very least under the core support. IIRC I had seen someone using a Honda radiator of some kind.

[4 l-bodies]

... bye the way, the factory masi intake will never fit an omni. I guess I'm the only one attempting this? I either have to remove the cross brace that has the hood latch and move the radiator forward or make the intake super narrow. I will post pictures tomorrow. Lots of room in the back though!
Hey Joel, why is it you keep thinking you are doing something nobody else tried before? Masi transplants have been done many times over last 10-15 by others in all L-body styles (Omnis, Chargers, and Rampages). The stock intake fits engine bay just fine. You may need proof since you cut yours all to pieces before you even had your vehicle to test fit. Intake below is bone stock with exception that it was extrude honed on inside. IMO, writing that it "will never fit an Omni" is just very misleading. The heat exchangers (the radiator & intercooler) and radiator core support brace is what needs some fab work, not the intake. If this thread is to be of any benefit to others, stick to facts and leave the conjecture out of this.
Todd

[85boostbox]

I counted 134 on mine! bye the way, the factory masi intake will never fit an omni. I guess I'm the only one attempting this? I either have to remove the cross brace that has the hood latch and move the radiator forward or make the intake super narrow. I will post pictures tomorrow. Lots of room in the back though!

Umm.... He said that Todd. That was sort of a pissy reply that was not called for. Don't understand why you got offensive. And he is probably thinking no one has done it due to the fact that no one has a project log on a Masi swapped like L body. At least not that I know of.

Paul

[joelzip]

Nothing misleading about me saying that the intake needs to be modified, the radiator needs to be moved forward or the core support needs to be altered.....Everything I said is exactly true. I have the car, the engine, and the head in the garage so that's not misleading. The intake is cut right down the length so I can hold it right back together to see what it looks like on the car. I cut the intake cause it sucks, not to make it fit the car and if someone replies "my car makes x horsepower with the stock intake and exhaust manifold" I don't care. I could probably make 500 horsepower through a 2.5" exhaust pipe too, it would work but not the most efficient way to go about things. The 2.5" square intake on these motors are less than ideal, the exhaust with its outer banks aiming directly at to each other is also less than ideal. Does it work? Sure.

[4 l-bodies]

Nothing misleading about me saying that the intake needs to be modified, the radiator needs to be moved back or the core support needs to be altered.....Everything I said is exactly true. I have the car, the engine, and the head in the garage so that's not misleading. The intake is cut right down the length so I can hold it right back together to see what it looks like on the car. I cut the intake cause it sucks, not to make it fit the car. There is something definitely different about my car and the clearance in front of the intake manifold to core support. My factory masi intake almost touches it, did you move or rock your motor back compared to the factory location?
No nothing moved or altered. Are your front and rear mounts in place? None of the other Masi implants with stock intakes had to either that I am aware of.
Good luck with your masi implant.
Todd

[joelzip]

I posted from work and when I got home I compared your picture with my car and both are the same, my mistake thinking the intake was closer to the core support than yours. I'm thinking of starting another thread with the build so this one doesn't get even longer. I will add a link when I start it. I bought an mk2 radiator that will fit under the core support.

[4 l-bodies]

Umm.... He said that Todd. That was sort of a pissy reply that was not called for. Don't understand why you got offensive. ...Paul
Paul, Now there is the pot calling the kettle black...:rolleyes:
Todd

[85boostbox]

Nothing in my post was rude. But you're a well respected member here and I enjoy your posts so enough said.

Paul

[iTurbo]

Love the pic of the Omni w/Masi16v. Lots of stuff to oogle over there!

It appears the radiator is under the upper radiator support. I'm guessing it's using the Scirocco radiator, but the filler neck appears to be like a TII radiator. Nicely done intercooler pipe as well, very clean and feng shui. I would like to know more about the electronics/wiring on this car.

[joelzip]

I would like to know about the intercooler return line as it appears to aim directly out of the front of the car?

[joelzip]

well, I decided on what I'm doing with the intake. I added to the original, overall 30% increase in volume as well as a taper to increase flow to the first cylinder and squeeze it down to the last in line. Trying to copy an srt4 design and fit it under the hood. Working on the transition to the throttle body that will literally be bolted directly to the air/ water exchanger with a 45 silicone elbow.

[joelzip]

For those interested, I'm not going to post anymore build pictures here and have started a separate thread. I will update this thread if I feel as though I can add some knowledge that someone could use.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?73791-1989-Horizon-Masi-project&p=1025469&highlight=#post1025469

[joelzip]

I called ARP today and asked for a stud kit that is 11mm x1.5 on one end and the standard 7/16" on the other with a total length of 5" and they cross referenced a Nissan stud kit, 10 count with the correct reduced 12pt head and washers. Part number 202-4302 $103 Can someone with a set of correct studs please confirm these dimensions for fitment?

[4 l-bodies]

I called ARP today and asked for a stud kit that is 11mm x1.5 on one end and the standard 7/16" on the other with a total length of 5" and they cross referenced a Nissan stud kit, 10 count with the correct reduced 12pt head and washers. Part number 202-4302 $103 Can someone with a set of correct studs please confirm these dimensions for fitment?
That should be close enough. Mine measured 5.060". BTW Toyota 3.0 V6 head bolts work perfect too. Have nice 12 point head just like originals. Washers OD have to be cut down just a hair though.
Todd

[joelzip]

I told the ARP guy 5" and he said the Nissan ones were just a hair over 5" so I'm guessing those are the ones at 5.06" The Nissan part number listed I believe is offered in an undercut stud version part number 202-4702 that doesn't require re-torquing and has a higher clamping force. They are only offered in the 8740 chromoly material though, not the higher 2000 metal.

[iTurbo]

.....taking notes here....feel free to talk amongst yourselves..

[GLHNSLHT2]

Jeremy clear out your Inbox :)

[joelzip]

Getting ready to button up my motor and was wondering if the masi head requires the oil restrictor in the surface of the block. If it does than I lost mine....

[GLHNSLHT2]

it's different then the 8v. Believe Todd states it's a .093" hole I have one and I have to make one for my motors.

[joelzip]

edit: found it down in the hole. I will make sure its open as I don't believe it was ever taken out at the machine shop. Seams scary that tiny pin hole provides the oil to keep the cams from wiping out. Gotta make damn sure a piece of debris doesn't plug it.

[4 l-bodies]

it's different then the 8v. Believe Todd states it's a .093" hole I have one and I have to make one for my motors.


edit: found it down in the hole. I will make sure its open as I don't believe it was ever taken out at the machine shop. Seams scary that tiny pin hole provides the oil to keep the cams from wiping out. Gotta make damn sure a piece of debris doesn't plug it.

Yeah I read somewhere (FSM? or parts manual) .091 to .093 for Masi. That was what mine was that I pulled from my motor. Pat Melendy's has been measured at .084. Definitely smaller than 8V.
Todd

[Reaper1]

The head studs I have for mine are 5.040" in length and are 7/16" on one end and must be 11mm on the other. I don't have a PN for the entire kit because it's not in the box, but it is in its original sealed bag. Sounds like what you guys are looking at.

[joelzip]

My factory restrictor is .073....

[2.216VTurbo]

My yellow Masi TC had lazy oil pressure after full warm up, I did the 'top end' 5-6 years ago but didn't want to do rod bearings or bottom end work so I pulled the factory restrictor(didn't think to measure it:o) and put in a homemade brass plug drilled to .065. Pressure is better now and no issues with starving the top end. I have RDI's double springs and OS Rev Valves. been 6-8K miles now and no cam flaking or flattening or whatever. The 70PPH cal has a 7500 RPM limit and it has seen it many many times. ;)

[joelzip]

Well that makes me feel better as my combo in head parts is similar. I was thinking I'd have to pull it out and enlarge it as the springs probably create a lot of additional pressure and friction on the top end.

[Reaper1]

So...I already knew about the different restrictor, so what is the consensus? Leave it stock, make it bigger, make a custom one...?

[joelzip]

Survey says .065-.093 works. I think I'll be happy leaving mine in the middle at .073 where it came from the factory.

[joelzip]

GLHNSLHT2, (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/member.php?410-GLHNSLHT2) I pulled another restrictor from my factory horizon block and tig welded it shut with silicon bronze. I will open it up to your specs and send it to you for no charge if you wish. Hows that for deal! Just PM me.

[joelzip]

I have another question, my turbo is not water cooled so I pluged the water feed banjo on the head. Would this effect the way the coolant travels through the head? Maybe bleeding the coolant out that end is similar to the modification they make on 8 valve motors. I'm wondering if I should just connect that line to the back of the block instead? On another note, I have the 202-4702 studs in hand and they look perfect for our motors. They are the better undercut studs from ARP. I should get my head gasket here soon to install them so I will update on how the nuts and washers fit as I don't have my head in hand at the moment.

[Reaper1]

While water cooling does have a certain degree of effectivity for cooling turbos while the engine is running, the largest benefit is gained when the engine is turned off after being run. The water cooling works off of convection pulling cooler water from the block through the turbo then returning it back to the head.

Without doing some data recording, it's hard to say whether the turbo coolant return being blocked off on the head will be detrimental, but my gut feeling is "no".

BTW, how's the valve cover gasket project coming along?

[joelzip]

I asked to have a .020 bead put on the perimeter with a laser on the mold but it was too difficult and would require starting over with the mold. They were to add .030 to the perimeter for compression and forgot the cam cap humps for some reason so they are fixing that. I looked at 5 samples a few weeks ago and should get the corrected one soon. Once I agree to this coming version I will have the lot made up. Its taking a lot longer than I was quoted....

[Reaper1]

Yeah, development and testing usually takes longer than expected, even when snags are accounted for. I'm not trying to rush anything, just was wondering how it was coming along.

Are you going to test one on a running engine to make sure that it performs as it should on an operating engine that goes through thermal cycles and vibration?

[joelzip]

I can't make any more changes without starting over on the mold which is a ton of money. I'm already at the point of worrying I won't get my money back. So I think they are just going to be how they are which I'm happy with. I will test the next sample with measuring devices and may send one out to someone thats willing to bolt it on but I won't have a running motor for another 3 months or so myself. There is .030 compression height which is 15% compression, that is what they suggested even though I started with the original idea of .040. The cover will bolt down metal to metal and the rubber will expand width wise about 15% to the full trough. The new rubber is way more advanced than what they were using 25 years ago so it should provide better compression retention and degrading life. It would be great to make some test them make changes, over and over, but this is already more of a favor when the price is under 10 grand. I'm sure they will be more than adequate. I am a plumber by trade ya know, I tell liquid what to do!

[2.216VTurbo]

I can't make any more changes without starting over on the mold which is a ton of money. I'm already at the point of worrying I won't get my money back. So I think they are just going to be how they are which I'm happy with. I will test the next sample with measuring devices and may send one out to someone thats willing to bolt it on but I won't have a running motor for another 3 months or so myself. There is .030 compression height which is 15% compression, that is what they suggested even though I started with the original idea of .040. The cover will bolt down metal to metal and the rubber will expand width wise about 15% to the full trough. The new rubber is way more advanced than what they were using 25 years ago so it should provide better compression retention and degrading life. It would be great to make some test them make changes, over and over, but this is already more of a favor when the price is under 10 grand. I'm sure they will be more than adequate. I am a plumber by trade ya know, I tell liquid what to do!

I have a running (leaking from the VC) Masi TC I'd be willing to test on. I drove the yellow(leaking) Masi to Spring Fling with the GF driving the white one, when a drop of oil hits the Ex manifold, it's like a mini smokescreen for a few seconds underhood:o

[joelzip]

I will let you know when I get my hands on the second sample and send it out.

[joelzip]

Head stud washers are indeed too large in diameter to fit into the head, I used the factory washers.

[joelzip]

Need advice!, what to torque cam cap nuts to? I will add this to the sticky when I get an answer. Thanks.

[2.216VTurbo]

13inch lbs sounds familiar but better check it with the manual. Because of those wave washers it's lighter than you might have thought...

[Reaper1]

If I remember, I'll check my manual tonight as well if it isn't posted up already.

[joelzip]

I'm still in need of the torque specs when someone has a chance to check.

[85boostbox]

Would 89 Service manuals have it. Or is it specific Masi manual?

[joelzip]

Red or blue tc manual I believe.

[85boostbox]

I'll still look and find out just to makes sure. Will look tonight to find out.

[4 l-bodies]

240 inch pounds, actually a hair tighter than 8V stuff. Per TC manual.

[joelzip]

Thank you!, Added to sticky as well. I should probably get one of these manuals, any for sale?

[joelzip]

Unearthing an old post. There was talk about adjustable timing gears in another thread so I thought I would ask if anyone has any information on degreeing these masi head cams. I love the look of the adjustable gears but at this point does anybody have any hard documentation of the factory cam profile and where it should be zero'd in at to base adjustments off? Has someone found that advancing or retarding a set amount benefits all of these motors because of the taller power band we are using them at?

[4 l-bodies]

Unearthing an old post. There was talk about adjustable timing gears in another thread so I thought I would ask if anyone has any information on degreeing these masi head cams. I love the look of the adjustable gears but at this point does anybody have any hard documentation of the factory cam profile and where it should be zero'd in at to base adjustments off? Has someone found that advancing or retarding a set amount benefits all of these motors because of the taller power band we are using them at?
Joel,
I have degreed my stock masi camshafts in. If you went through your motor and head, your camshafts will be slightly retarded from resurfacing the block and head. Most people will see that engine likes the intake cam to be slightly advanced, while exhaust cam might like a bit of retard. Of course all engines are not the same. That is the beauty of DOHC, you can adjust intake and exhaust independently, and change LSA to suit the RPM band you want. Can't do that with 8V SOHC. Most people start with advancing intake then move to exhaust when tuning on chassis dyno.
LSA is 112.25. Installed intake is 112 ATDC. Exhaust the same at 112 but obviously BTDC. Camshafts are interchangeable, but you must move key to correct keyway. I found mine to be about 1 degree advanced on bone stock virgin engine, so awfully darn close. These camshafts are pretty mild. Duration is just a bit over 200 @ .050 on both intake and exhaust, measured at bucket. Measurements were with lash set at .015 intake and .011 exhaust (cold). It takes some patience to set up dial indicator properly, as there isn't a whole bunch of room for it. Hope this info helps. You should buy Tom's sprockets. He wants to sell, and you seem like you could use them. One would think you two should be able to work out some sort of deal.
Todd