Please help me learn about "IMSA Style" 2.0L destroked 2.2 engines.

[Jetmugg]

A little bit of background may help...

I'm very interested in building a 2.0L engine to run in a land speed racing attempt. This would be for a "Production" class truck - which is my '84 Dodge Rampgage...

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Jetmugg/Dodge%20Rampage/DSC_1870_zps7acfb0f4.jpg (http://s468.photobucket.com/user/Jetmugg/media/Dodge%20Rampage/DSC_1870_zps7acfb0f4.jpg.html)

In order to comply with the rules, he block has to be "of the same engine design", which means same material, same bore centers, crank supports, deck height, cam location, head mounting, bell-housing, and engine mount locations as the factory installed OEM engine.

The cylinder heads are limited to the original number of valves and port configuration. This does not preclude head porting, but no crossflow heads, and no 16V's are allowed for this class.

The current record in the class is 129.xx mph. My best estimate is that somewhere in the range of 220HP would allow me to be competitive against that record.

The requirements of the rules for G/Production Mid-Mini Pickup have led me to start researching and learning as much as I can about the de-stroked "IMSA" style 2.0 engines. The displacement limit for G classes is 2.015L.

I'm doing the online searches and reading as much as I can. I'm also hoping that someone with firsthand knowledge will be able and willing to lend a hand with my knowledge, and perhaps point me in the right direction.

In my mind, I would ideally find a reasonably priced deal on some NOS IMSA parts, or a complete engine, or a complete car that I could pluck the drivetrain from.

I don't think that's entirely likely, so I'm brainstorming/daydreaming about what it would take to build an NA 2.0 engine on a 2.2 block, using an 8V head, that could make somewhere on the high side of 220HP if possible.

Does $5,000 seem like a reasonable cost to build/buy an engine of this nature?

Thank YOU,

Steve.

[looneytuner]

I sent you a private message.

[contraption22]

Any camshaft or compression limitations? How about fuel? Carburetor?

[Jetmugg]

Can be carbed or injected. Any compression and cam. The basic limitations are that the block has to be essentially OEM in dimensions, and that the head has to have the same number of valves and port configuration as an engine that was originally available in the vehicle. Any other combination of mild to exotic parts is allowed.

2.015L maximum displacement, and has to run on gasoline (race gas is OK). No methanol or nitro.

Steve

[zin]

$5000.00 is probably a good start, but that probably won't cover everything. Good machine work is key, and the parts you need are pretty old, and so you will likely have to put some $$ into them to make them usable, not to mention you'll probably have to go through a few "cores" to find "good ones".

I was going to suggest finding and using a tall deck TBI (88?) block, as they have all the reinforcements of a later common block, with the added bonus of a taller deck, which would allow the use of longer rods, but I'm not sure if the IMSA crank would work without modifications (read $$).

On the other hand, it sounds like they'd allow you to use the later model common block, which is as good or better, but would definitely require changes to accommodate the IMSA crank due to the real seal differences (for one).

Since your HP goal is so low, I'll assume you'd be participating in a n/a class, so you'll want to invest in some good head work and cam...

Sounds like a fun project and seems like your goal is attainable without too much effort/$$.

Mike

[contraption22]

I take it the tall blocks would be compatible with an early style crank.

If so, there were a few early style short stroke (2.0L) cranks floating around the community within the last couple of years.

This company had offered a billet steel 2.0 crank in years past.

http://www.farndon.com/

[Jetmugg]

Yep, naturally aspirated only. Plenty of flow through the head is critical. I'll have to double check the rules, but I don't think that tall deck blocks are allowed as "production" for an '84. Deck height has to be OEM available in the vehicle.

I realize that $5K would have to include "buying parts right" - i.e. finding someone with a good stash of vintage race parts, and buying as a package if possible. I have a good machine shop (AMT Racing Engines) as a sponsor. Those guys do great work.

Thank you for the information, especially with respect to the reinforcements of the later block. I need to dig through my old books, I think there's an '80's Direct Connection catalog around here somewhere, that might help with some part#'s.

Steve.

[85boostbox]

Doesn't lengel run a newer 2.4 crank in his T3. Wasn't it machined to fit the common block. If so I'm sure you could do the same thing to a neon 2.0 crank and have it machined worked to fit a 2.2 CB.

[ShadowFromHell]

Ive got to ask.... How fast did it go with the diesel?

[Jetmugg]

The bad news is that the only place I've been able to run WOT it is on a chassis dyno. I finished the build in time for the World Of Speed meet this past September on the Bonneville Salt Flats. That event was a rain-out due to a freak storm system that drenched the salt. (The same storm system that flooded Boulder, CO). I changed my travel plans and made arrangements to go to Bonneville for the World Finals in October. Another rainout!

Between the two rainouts, I ran it on a Mustang Chassis Dyno at a local technical college. With the dyno set for road simulation, I was able to hit 120 mph. Obviously, no one issues land speed records for dyno runs, but I think that it's a good sign that I can be competitive against the existing 1.5L diesel (H/DT) record of approximately 106 mph. Obviously, no sanctioning bodies issue land speed records for dyno runs, though.

That's 167 HP and 238 ft-lbs from the 1.5L Turbodiesel. A stock 1.5L VW diesel (non-turbo) is 48 HP.

I will have to wait until next spring to run at a sanctioned event. The Ohio mile meets start in May. I will attend one or more of those before heading to Bonneville in August 2014.

In the meantime, I am thinking about "what's next" in terms of engine and tranny combinations to allow me to run in different classes.

Steve.

[83scamp]

Yep, naturally aspirated only. Plenty of flow through the head is critical. I'll have to double check the rules, but I don't think that tall deck blocks are allowed as "production" for an '84. Deck height has to be OEM available in the vehicle.

I realize that $5K would have to include "buying parts right" - i.e. finding someone with a good stash of vintage race parts, and buying as a package if possible. I have a good machine shop (AMT Racing Engines) as a sponsor. Those guys do great work.

Thank you for the information, especially with respect to the reinforcements of the later block. I need to dig through my old books, I think there's an '80's Direct Connection catalog around here somewhere, that might help with some part#'s.

Steve.


The reinforced later blocks are a big plus for turbo applications, but with an N/A engine, and the hp goals you are setting, any early bock will be more than strong enough. The only one I would even consider shying away from would be the very early 81-early 83 block. Those don't have the reinforcements of the "turbo" blocks, but would still probably work in your application. Chances of you finding one of them are slim to none though. By mid-83, all blocks were "turbo" blocks. My July 83 build Scamp has a "turbo" block in it.

[Jetmugg]

Thank you, Scamp. I just learned something new. That's what makes a forum like this so valuable!

Steve

[83scamp]

Thank you, Scamp. I just learned something new. That's what makes a forum like this so valuable!

Steve


No problem! Glad I could help. Another thing to keep in mind. The early turbo blocks also have 10mm head bolts, later(I believe 86 up?) blocks upgraded to 11mm. Not a big deal, the early blocks are easy to upgrade. I did mine when I rebuilt it many moons ago.

[Jetmugg]

Sounds similar to the VW diesel setup I'm running now. Early VW blocks were 11mm, later were 12mm. I'm using one of the 12mm head stud blocks, ARP studs, multi-layer steel HG, and running 30 pounds of boost. I'm a believer in upgrading to the most heavy duty stuff I can get my hands on, so that's good to know about the 2.2 blocks.

Is there enough "meat" in the earlier 2.2 blocks to drill and tap them for the larger size? (I manage a small company that includes some milling machines, so I can do quite a bit of the work here".

Steve.

[bgbmxer]

Sounds similar to the VW diesel setup I'm running now. Early VW blocks were 11mm, later were 12mm. I'm using one of the 12mm head stud blocks, ARP studs, multi-layer steel HG, and running 30 pounds of boost. I'm a believer in upgrading to the most heavy duty stuff I can get my hands on, so that's good to know about the 2.2 blocks.

Is there enough "meat" in the earlier 2.2 blocks to drill and tap them for the larger size? (I manage a small company that includes some milling machines, so I can do quite a bit of the work here".

Steve.

read ur buildup on the diesel forums I had a 1.6 rabbit na that I put a teo4h turbo on and ran close to 30lbs also. Makes the car come alive. Sold that car but would like another diesel those things are tough. Next time would be a 1.9 idi built pump and a bigger turbo. Prolly in an omni I hated how frail the body's are on the old vws.


good luck on your next build

[Jetmugg]

When the boost hits, that little VW Diesel really does scream. If anyone's interested, here's a YouTube video of a dyno pull...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYikOly9S0

[bgbmxer]

When the boost hits, that little VW Diesel really does scream. If anyone's interested, here's a YouTube video of a dyno pull...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYikOly9S0

i could have run a bigger turbo and made a lot more power if I had a built pump. Had a lot of work in the head intake and exhaust mani

[Vigo]

Hey there Steve!

Sorry i never got back with you about the VW-pattern 3-spd auto, i couldnt register at the other forum for some reason. Glad to see you here.

Anywho, i think 220hp from a non-turbo destroked 2.2 is doable for around 5k. The hardest part will be getting the head ported right. There are people in this community who can do it and may be willing to for a guy like you who has already shown a LOT of commitment and obviously isn't just window shopping. There are side-draft carb manifolds available which will support that rpm and power level with no or next to no work to them. Just need carbs and tuning! The long tube headers for these motors can be tricky to find but on your time frame it should not be a problem to find one between now and then. The valvetrain stuff i dont know much about, but i don't think you'll need to go inventing anything unless you need to go over 8000 rpm. I don't think you will need to..

[turismolover22]

To answer your question, yes there should be plenty of meat to upgrade to 11 mm headbolts. I think (dont quote me) that mopar performance / direct connection used to offer a tap kit to "upgrade" your early blocks to the stronger 11 mm headbolts.

[5DIGITS]

Jetmugg,
Sent you a PM for a crank.

[2.216VTurbo]

Jetmugg,
Sent you a PM for a crank.

Does it look like this:eyebrows:

[Vigo]

I pm'd him with a tip on a crank too. Judging by this thread you'd think they were EVERYWHERE.

[Jetmugg]

I'm supposed to be meeting up with a semi-local guy next week who has a collection of IMSA related 2.0 goodies. I'm hoping we can work something out! These cranks are certainly not growing on trees, but I have been pleasantly surprised that they are still "out there" and somewhat available.

Steve.

[glhs727]

I'm supposed to be meeting up with a semi-local guy next week who has a collection of IMSA related 2.0 goodies. I'm hoping we can work something out! These cranks are certainly not growing on trees, but I have been pleasantly surprised that they are still "out there" and somewhat available.

Steve. well if he doesn't have any, I have a one I can sell. Good luck sounds like a cool project!

[5DIGITS]

Does it look like this:eyebrows:

Nice crank !

Alan,
Whats hilarious is how some of these came to be, including the 2.0L touring car cranks.
There is a small machine shop/fab area outside one of the garages in the headquarters bldg.
The lab guys would take the cranks to a band saw and remove the counter-weights and hand grind them so they could be sent out for balancing.
The idea was - It's a four cylinder and opposed weight. As long as the throws/counters were equal, it was a 'mass' wash and HP gain.

The one pictured didn't have the throw completely removed like others, but received many angle cuts on the lathe until the cut neared the opposing side of the counter weight.

Very cool !!

[Jetmugg]

I'm definitely encouraged by the amount of knowledge and parts in circulation to build a "production" based 2 liter engine based on an early 2.2 block and head (possibly a DC/MP head)? I've been doing some searching, but haven't found much that's related to the exact combinations that were run in IMSA, in terms of pistons, and rods in particular. Does anyone know if the connecting rods were 1-off special parts (Oliver, Carillo, etc), or if there was a DC/MP rod that was used on the 2 liter IMSA engines?

I'm hoping to get together with a local guy who has a stash of parts, machine shop, dyno, etc. and has ownership stake in at least 2 Dodge race cars of the correct vintage.

In the meantime, I'm craving any technical details I can get my hands on, including estimates of HP for the destroked NA versions of this engine. Compression ratios, head flow numbers, valve sizes, rpm operating ranges, etc. would be fantastic. I wish I could find a technical article on how Dodge built the competition engines, but I haven't seen anything online yet.

On race gas, I'm working under the assumption that 250 HP is attainable for a dedicated engine, maybe in the range of 7,000 rpm+.

Steve.

[GLHS60]

Around 1985 there was a 2.2 engine book put out by Hot Rod magazine that has a lot of IMSA specific stuff in it. They come up for sale occasionally. I see there is a new crank on Ebay right now.

Thanks
Randy

[contraption22]

I'm pretty excited about this build.

[Jetmugg]

WAYYYY back in the '80's, I owned an '80 Dodge 024 with the 1.7L VW gasser engine. At that time, I bought a book entitled something like "FWD Mopar Performance", or something similar. It was mostly information about suspension, brakes, setting up a car for the track, etc. I ended up putting a Shelby Charger suspension on that car, gutting most of the interior, and fabbing up a flat "rear deck" area where the hatch and back seat would normally be.

Sounds like I should be on the lookout for that Hot Rod book as well.

Back then, it was my dream to build up my 024 in stages (I even had the stages named). Stage 1 was to be a 2.2 Turbo engine and FWD layout. Stage 2 was going to be a RWD conversion, based on the RWD crossmember that was available at the time for Dodge Daytona's and the like. I wanted to run an aluminum Chevy V6 (4.3L) and keep it stout but still streetable. There were a few drag cars at the time, that were either 024's or Shelby Chargers, which had been converted to RWD, and which looked fantastic tubbed in the rear. Stage 3 was going to be a full-on race car transformation for the drag strip.

I still kick myself for getting rid of that 024. By the time I graduated from college (metallurgical engineering), the 024 had developed a bad habit of dying randomly on the highway. I tried different distributors, ignition modules, chased wiring gremlins, but could never solve that mystery. As soon as I graduated and got a "Real Job", I traded the 024 in on a V8 Dakota. I've been kicking myself since then. In 2003, I traded in the Dakota on an '03 Ram 2500. In '13, I traded in the '03 Ram 2500 on a 2013 Ram 2500. The blue 024 still shows up in my dreams, though.

This Rampage kind of fills in my longing for that old 024, but the hole in my heart isn't completely healed yet. There may be an 024, Charger 2.2, or Shelby in my future.

Anyway, back to the Rampage / land speed racing deal... Since I was about 10 years old, I can remember being in love with the idea of racing at Bonneville. The Rampage has become my chance to live out my dream as far as LSR goes. Right now, I'm committed to running the 1.5L turbodiesel at SpeedWeek next year, but I'm already thinking about what comes next. I have the basis for a 2 liter diesel engine already mounted on an engine stand in my garage. However, if I can "partner up" with someone who has a 2-liter 2.2 engine, I may have to switch to the gasser classes next.

I'm not sure if I've posted a link yet, but here's the entire "build thread" for my Rampage so far....


http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10625.0.html

Steve.

[83scamp]

To answer your question, yes there should be plenty of meat to upgrade to 11 mm headbolts. I think (dont quote me) that mopar performance / direct connection used to offer a tap kit to "upgrade" your early blocks to the stronger 11 mm headbolts.

You are correct. MP used to offer the kit to do it. I had the machine shop do mine on their mill so I knew the holes were perfectly vertical to the deck.


Around 1985 there was a 2.2 engine book put out by Hot Rod magazine that has a lot of IMSA specific stuff in it. They come up for sale occasionally. I see there is a new crank on Ebay right now.

Thanks
Randy

I have this book at home! I know there was some info on the 2.0 IMSA stuff. I'll have to look when I get a chance.

[Jetmugg]

Does anyone have a photo of the Hot Rod book? I'm trying to do a search for the book, and it would be nice to be able to know one when I see it.

As far as drilling and tapping the block, I think I would also use a vertical milling machine for that job.

I found an old (1989) copy of the Mopar Performance catalog, which still included that drill& tap kit. It did not, however, include any of the IMSA internal engine goodies. I'm on the search for an MP / DC catalog from earlier in the 80's, which would hopefully include the IMSA hard parts. I love having the MP/DC part#'s.

[Vigo]

Steve, would you have to run an unported head? Or a head ported and then offered 'from the factory' that way? I would guess you could still hit your power goal with a 'factory ported' head but it would be tougher to find and probably require more rpm and cam vs a bigger head.

Can you just summarize the class limitations on the engine build?

[Jetmugg]

Here's a snapshot of the engine rules for Production classes:

The engine used shall have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from any automobile dealer. A different displacement size of the same engine design may be used provided it does not constitute an engine swap. (Engine swap is designated as follows):

An engine swap is defined as the use of an engine from an engine design family that was not available as a factory or dealer installed option for a given vehicle year. An engine design family is defined as engines which are made with the same basic material, have the same bore centers, crankshaft supports, deck height, cam location, head mounting, bell housing, and engine mount patterns.

The use of an OEM or aftermarket replacement block from the same design family is not considered an engine swap. "Crate engines" are not considered engine swaps. Direc replacement aftermarket engine blocks are not considered engine swaps (i.e. Dart, World Products, etc) if they meet the other engine swap design criteria.

- - - Updated - - -

The only text regarding cylinder heads are that "Cylinder heads are limited to the original number of valves and port configuration".

Porting is allowed, and is almost essential to success. What you can't do is switch to a later model crossflow head, a Masi head, etc.

Steve.

[Jetmugg]

It's OK to port the living snot out of an OEM head, put in bigger valves, bigger cam, change between hydraulic and mechanical cams, change connecting rods, cranks, pistons, etc.

The basic block and head geometry are the items that need to be ostensibly production pieces.

Direct Connection / Mopar Performance blocks, heads, and hard parts that are compatible with a 2.2 are all acceptable as "production".

Steve.

[GLHS60]

1987-1988 Turbo II block would be ideal as it will be crossdrilled, already have 11 mm head bolts and the early style crank is a drop in.

Thanks
Randy

[GLHS60]

Here is a picture of the Hot Rod book along with a couple of pages of IMSA stuff. Most of the block mods. are out dated as the Turbo II block is superior than the early stuff.

Thanks
Randy

[Jetmugg]

Excellent, thank you Randy. Now I know what I'm looking for. Regarding the '87-88 turbo blocks, that's exactly the kind of detailed tech info that I was hoping to find.

PS - great looking Rampage.

[Vigo]

It's OK to port the living snot out of an OEM head, put in bigger valves, bigger cam, change between hydraulic and mechanical cams, change connecting rods, cranks, pistons, etc.

The basic block and head geometry are the items that need to be ostensibly production pieces.


Well then, i think this engine build will be easier than or on par with your diesel build as far as sourcing parts. As im sure you well know we could have had you probably 10 pairs of headlights covers for your Rampage if it weren't for stringent OEM stipulations. In this case any of the ubiquitous blocks and heads that fit the rule will support your goal. I may not be much harder to get a 2.0 crank than it is to find any of several parts on your diesel motor like the non-usdm intake manifold (iirc). The side-draft manifold bases will probably cost you more than the crank if you end up going that way.

[Jetmugg]

True - the side draft stuff looks spendy, no matter what engine it's going on.

Regarding the diesel stuff, some of what I had was never available in the USA on any production vehicle, but "Diesel Truck" does not have the same requirements as "Production" classes. Engine swaps are legal in DT.

What is the general consensus on using some kind of individual runner fuel injection, as opposed to the side-drafts (in terms of cost, complexity, and power potential). I know there has been a LOT of improvement in fuel injection systems since the 80's.

For what I want to do, driveability is not a concern, only making good power at elevated RPM's. I know that one of the higher-end LSR teams uses an AEM management system on their VW Rabbit Pickup truck. That truck has run as fast as 194 mph with a turbo 2 liter VW on gasoline. I'm going to try to post a video of that truck - they used to have some of their videos online, but may have taken them down. In any event, a 194 mph VW pickup is EXTREMELY fast.

Steve

[Jetmugg]

OK, I know it's not a Mopar, but here's an in-truck video of a VW Rabbit pickup running 195 mph with a 2 liter turbo VW under the hood.

http://whitegoosebar.com/images/Videos/2111/BV/2111_081611run2front.flv

Steve.

[83scamp]

True - the side draft stuff looks spendy, no matter what engine it's going on.

Regarding the diesel stuff, some of what I had was never available in the USA on any production vehicle, but "Diesel Truck" does not have the same requirements as "Production" classes. Engine swaps are legal in DT.

What is the general consensus on using some kind of individual runner fuel injection, as opposed to the side-drafts (in terms of cost, complexity, and power potential). I know there has been a LOT of improvement in fuel injection systems since the 80's.

For what I want to do, driveability is not a concern, only making good power at elevated RPM's. I know that one of the higher-end LSR teams uses an AEM management system on their VW Rabbit Pickup truck. That truck has run as fast as 194 mph with a turbo 2 liter VW on gasoline. I'm going to try to post a video of that truck - they used to have some of their videos online, but may have taken them down. In any event, a 194 mph VW pickup is EXTREMELY fast.

Steve


Check out these guys: http://foxinjection.com/index.html They sell a fuel injection setup that replaces a pair of side draft Webers.

[Vigo]

What is the general consensus on using some kind of individual runner fuel injection, as opposed to the side-drafts (in terms of cost, complexity, and power potential). I know there has been a LOT of improvement in fuel injection systems since the 80's.

For what I want to do, driveability is not a concern, only making good power at elevated RPM's. I know that one of the higher-end LSR teams uses an AEM management system on their VW Rabbit Pickup truck. That truck has run as fast as 194 mph with a turbo 2 liter VW on gasoline. I'm going to try to post a video of that truck - they used to have some of their videos online, but may have taken them down. In any event, a 194 mph VW pickup is EXTREMELY fast.

Drivability not being a concern is the main reason i would suggest a 'simple' side-draft setup. It really only has to work well at WOT and carbs are pretty easy to tune for WOT and very easy to install the wiring for (see what i did there? Hah).

If you were to tell us you ALSO wanted to go 195mph i may change my tune, or my recommendation for your tune (ok ill stop) but if you just want to make 250hp i would just do the sidedraft carb setup and spend the rest of your time getting the cylinder head to keep up with it. In my opinion, the relative complexity of fuel injection is an unnecessary distraction for this kind of single-use app.

If you become dead set on using a completely custom intake manifold, PM mr. Asa Cannell here and ask him to show you his CNC manifold parts for this motor: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/member.php?6765-acannell

[GLHS60]

Excellent, thank you Randy. Now I know what I'm looking for. Regarding the '87-88 turbo blocks, that's exactly the kind of detailed tech info that I was hoping to find.

PS - great looking Rampage.

I'm happy to be of any help. Most of us here are running turbos, so most don't have a lot of N.A. experience, but we are all cheering you on!! There are three styles of cylinder heads to choose from, the original 1981, 2.2 head is known as the 655. It has the largest intake ports of all but was soon replaced by the G head, basically the same style bathtub type combustion chamber but smaller intake ports. From 1986 on the swirl, or fastburn head was used until the end. There are many opinions on which one is the best.

Thanks
Randy

[Jetmugg]

I'm gaining knowledge quickly, which is a good thing. Yesterday afternoon, I bought a book online that I believe is the Hot Rod book shown above. A seller on Amazon had it listed, he didn't have a photo of the book, but the description and 1985 date matched, so I pulled the trigger on that deal. I also bought the 4th edition of the Mopar 2.2/2.5 FWD performance handbook. What's ironic is that I used to own a copy of that book (probably 1st edition), that I bought back in '86 or so. My original copy must have gotten tossed out somewhere along the line.

Tomorrow, I'm having lunch with the local race engineering guy to talk about details and possibilities for my project and potentially resurrecting an existing race car that has been in storage for a while. Talking to him a couple of days ago, he was describing his experience with ported cylinder heads and flowbench results. He said that he has flow-tested several ported heads, and that all of them have excellent flow on the intake side, but not nearly as good on the exhaust side. It seems that flow on the exhaust side is the limiting factor on these heads (I'm not sure of the casting numbers or letter codes for the heads he was describing). I can't wait to get a chance to get up to his shop (maybe next week or weekend).

I have seen a couple of photos of the CNC intake manifolds as described above. They are definitely works of art, and there's nothing like a set of Webers on a full-race 4-banger for that "Cool Factor".

Regarding ignition systems, what are the popular, modern systems to use for these engines? My experience back in the 80's indicated that the OEM distributors were not known for either their precision or high levels of reliability. Without doing any research, is it safe to assume that there's some kind of crank-triggered fully electronic system that is more common for higher HP and rpm levels (maybe something like an MSD box and optical trigger system)?

Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback and input as I try to learn as much as I can in as quick a time frame as possible.

Thanks again,

Steve

[Vigo]

Well, on a turbo car the exhaust ports are.. not the main exhaust restriction, since the turbo is. :p Having said that, you're right that the exhaust ALWAYS flows much worse than the intake on these heads although that is generally true on most motors.

If your guy has a fix for that you should take him up on it, but otherwise it is just something you will have to work around like everyone else. The 'advantage' you will have vs the majority of this forum who are running turbos, is that you can make the cam bigger and nastier to make up for crap headflow as long as you can safely keep revving. There's really nobody on this forum that i know of with a true high-rpm 8v turbo build (there are two or three 2.2 guys here who shift well over 7000 if that helps) so you will not be able to get much 8v-specific high-rpm n/a cam help here that isnt just based on general concepts. Most of the really strong n/a setups ever built for these motors were done back when people were intimidated by and didn't understand turbos and fuel injection and much of that knowledge is either lost or rests with a small number of people, and i dont know who they are. :(

[Reaper1]

Warren Stramer might be your best bet for advice on high rpm 8V valvetrain stuff. He seems to have that licked pretty well.

There is enough meat in the block to go to 1/2" headbolts (I have a friend that has done it), but it really isn't needed. Any of the turbo blocks will suite your purposes just fine.

I was also thinking about how possible it would be to run the 2.0L Neon crank in one of our engines. Yes, it would require work, but I don't think it's impossible.

The best thing about fuel injection is that it is easy to plug in a computer and fiddle with it to compensate for things and get the tune just right everywhere in the engine operation range. The worst thing about fuel injection is that it's easy to plug in a computer.....

If you are familiar with, and comfortable with carbs, then I say stick with them as they will do exactly what you need without having to learn new stuff along the way.

For ignition, I've seen this done so many ways. I'd look at something like Electromotive. It'll give you the power, adjustability, and robustness that you are looking for. I'm sure there are other systems out there, but that one is tried and true and I know it works very well.

I really like LSR stuff, so I'm rooting for you! I'm not going to say it's easy, because it's not, but I think you very well might be onto a combination to go record hunting! :thumb:

[Jetmugg]

Thank you, Reaper. I have a TON of stuff to learn about these engines. I'll do some research on Warren Stramer, as I'm fairly new to this game.

It's good to know that the blocks have enough material to support up to 1/2" headbolts. That information may come in handy some day, especially on a boosted engine. My sense is that 11mm studs/bolts might be enough for a naturally aspirated engine, but my sense may very well be wrong.

Electronic fuel injection and ignition tuning would certainly be a learning curve. The good news is that there are a lot of people doing EFI tuning. Finding the right system and the right person would be critical.

I'll definitely be keeping up to date on this project. As I mentioned earlier, I am committed to running the 1.5L diesel setup that's currently in the Rampage, at least until next August, or until it blows up (whichever comes first). After that, there are a couple of more opportunities for "pavement based" LSR racing for the rest of 2014. That's where I would look to start running with a different drivetrain.

Steve.

[Jetmugg]

Quick update - I spent about 3 hours with Bill Lambros today - that guy is a real ocean of knowledge on all things FWD Mopar. We didn't get up to his shop, but he came down and checked out my Rampage as we did plenty of bench racing. As the stories flowed, I could see that a lot of the details were coming right back to him, and the guy absolutely knows his stuff. The next meeting will be at his shop to take a look at all the goodness there. I'm riding pretty high right now, having daydreams and visions of a screaming 2 liter "production" engine under the hood of my Rampage for starters.

Steve.

[Vigo]

There is some chance that you may "flip your sh1t" when you see all the stuff he's got. :p

[Jetmugg]

It's quite likely. Exotic heads, exotic blocks, pistons, rods, cranks, suspension stuff, injection stuff, data acquisition, complete race cars, engine dyno, flowbench..... you know, just everyday stuff.

[Reaper1]

Bill is a great guy and knows these things like the back of his hand. He's been around literally forever. He's not as active as he once was, but he's still very helpful.

About the headbolts, I know most everyone in the turbo community just sticks with 11mm ARP hardware. I think the only reason my friend did the larger size was due to cost. IIRC he used V8 hardware for an old Hemi or something and it was half the cost to buy the V8 stuff and get 2 sets, than the single set of 4-cylinder stuff.

[83scamp]

Quick update - I spent about 3 hours with Bill Lambros today - that guy is a real ocean of knowledge on all things FWD Mopar. We didn't get up to his shop, but he came down and checked out my Rampage as we did plenty of bench racing. As the stories flowed, I could see that a lot of the details were coming right back to him, and the guy absolutely knows his stuff. The next meeting will be at his shop to take a look at all the goodness there. I'm riding pretty high right now, having daydreams and visions of a screaming 2 liter "production" engine under the hood of my Rampage for starters.

Steve.

As in Lambros Race Engineering? Those guys were at the top of 2.2 developement back in the 80's(along with Koffel's Place). I wish I had a resource like him close.


Bill is a great guy and knows these things like the back of his hand. He's been around literally forever. He's not as active as he once was, but he's still very helpful.

About the headbolts, I know most everyone in the turbo community just sticks with 11mm ARP hardware. I think the only reason my friend did the larger size was due to cost. IIRC he used V8 hardware for an old Hemi or something and it was half the cost to buy the V8 stuff and get 2 sets, than the single set of 4-cylinder stuff.

You are correct, the lower row head bolts from a Hemi can be used on a 2.2 if the block is tapped for them. Those were one of the first high performance mods to be done. At the time they were the only high quality fastener available that was close to the size needed for the 2.2.

[2.216VTurbo]

As in Lambros Race Engineering? Those guys were at the top of 2.2 developement back in the 80's(along with Koffel's Place). I wish I had a resource like him close.



You are correct, the lower row head bolts from a Hemi can be used on a 2.2 if the block is tapped for them. Those were one of the first high performance mods to be done. At the time they were the only high quality fastener available that was close to the size needed for the 2.2.

If you found the right Hot Rod Speed Secrets book Jetmugg, there are a few pics of Koffel's Place parts in there too. I remember a pic of one of the very first 2.2 Adj Cam gear's, like 15 years ago I somehow ended up with one, they are crazy difficult to adjust but I still have it on an early build motor somewhere:)

[Jetmugg]

Yep, I just received the book today, and saw pics of Koffel's, and one of the LRE Chargers. Bill was talking about the adjustable cam gears - says he has some engineering notes about them back at his shop. He's a very knowledgeable guy, and we hit it off pretty well. We are both engineers by profession, so there was a lot to talk about.

Steve.

[Jetmugg]

Well, the stars aligned for a few hours under a full moon last night, and I met Bill Lambros at his shop. All I can say is WOW! The sheer volume of knowledge contained in his head, combined with his collection of parts is eye-opening. We haven't worked out all the details, but the possibilities look very promising for us to team up for some LSR attempts in the near future.

Steve

[looneytuner]

The hard part is figuring out which of his camshafts to use. I'm pretty sure that your enthusiasm is going to rekindle his enthusiasm. That monster in the shop is the original Carter Carburetor dyno.

[Jetmugg]

I'm pretty sure he has the fever again, and has enough parts to test just about any 2.2 based engine that someone could dream up. That in-shop dyno can be a fantastic tool for checking all kinds of combinations, from mild to wild.