TIII head vs neon head

[nvysion]

Hello,
I would like to know what are the pros and cons : which head flows more, cost, ease of install, .... with a 2.5L CB engine.

What parts are needed to do the conversion ?
Which neon head is best ?


Thanks

[shadow88]

This should be a neat thread. If I can add to it, I'd like to hear about valve and spring upgrades available for each as well as cams

[wheming]

A 16v conversion might be in my future. At some point...
So I'm interested in the options for non TIII heads.

[Kryp2nitE]

Interested also on where this thread goes

There are old threads about different stage porting, iirc the neon head outflows the TIII head when fully ported. I can search when I get home but you can search "Stage porting TIII vs Neon site:turbo-mopar.com" in google and replace turbo-mopar with the other site and stuff should come up.

Other things to keep in mind:
Cam options
RPM Limits
Tuning options

[glhs875]

Sounds like this could be an interesting thread! I know Indy cylinder head offers a cnc ported Neon head that flows over 300cfm!!!

[Kryp2nitE]

Stock flow numbers from DDG http://thedodgegarage.com/cylinder_head_flow.html

Ported numbers: http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f40/110793-anyone-put-t3-head-flow-bench.html

[glhs875]

The combustion chamber needs to be taking into consideration as well.

[shadow88]

Funny, I was just talking to Dave St Louis Monday morning about this lol

[banger68]

The biggest variable has to be the availability of the Neon head vs the Lotus head. Plus the Neon head is cheaper and more aftermarket options. But seen both on big HP motors.

[glhs875]

The biggest variable has to be the availability of the Neon head vs the Lotus head. Plus the Neon head is cheaper and more aftermarket options. But seen both on big HP motors.

Good point! A lot of camshaft/intake options available on the Neon head!

[turismolover22]

The neon head is infinetly upgradeable. Considering it was in about every dodge compact and mid size sedan, van, small suv types, etc. The TIII was only presented in two cars, for 3 years. The biggest thing a TIII head has going for it is that it is a direct bolt on to a chrysler 2.2/2.5 block.The neon is obviously a hybrid. For the cool factor id stick with a TIII, for the money factor id stick with a 2.4. Just grab a whole motor, should be cheaper at the jy than a single bare TIII head.

[nvysion]

What I would like to know is what parts are needed in both setups
Can I keep the 2.5 pistons, distributor, ECU ?
How about the timing belt in both cases ?

Is there a difference between 2.0 and 2.4L head ?
How about the valves, the exhaust valves should be upgraded with turbo ones shouldn't they ?
How about the mods required : water and oil ?
What gasket to use ?
How about the intake and exhaust manifold ?

Lastly, does a ported 8V head with big valves (like those sold by Steve Menegon) are close to a stock 16V head ?

I don't know if it would be better to buy a TIII head, a neon head or a ported 8V head.

Thanks
Louis

[glhs875]

What I would like to know is what parts are needed in both setups
Can I keep the 2.5 pistons, distributor, ECU ?
How about the timing belt in both cases ?

Is there a difference between 2.0 and 2.4L head ?
How about the valves, the exhaust valves should be upgraded with turbo ones shouldn't they ?
How about the mods required : water and oil ?
What gasket to use ?
How about the intake and exhaust manifold ?

Lastly, does a ported 8V head with big valves (like those sold by Steve Menegon) are close to a stock 16V head ?

I don't know if it would be better to buy a TIII head, a neon head or a ported 8V head.

Thanks
Louis

Not saying one is not out there,but I have never seen or heard of an 8V head flowing what a 16V head will. CFM's in the very low 200 range is about as good as it gets,still less than a stock 16V.

[Reaper1]

The TIII was offered for 3 years in 3 cars in regular production: 1991-1993, Spirit R/T, Daytona IROC R/T, Phantom R/T (Mexico only).

Both heads have a LOT of potential. For us TM guys the Lotus head holds some coolness value to it. The 2.0/2.4 head is everywhere, and has a lot of aftermarket support. If it hadn't been for my affinity for the Masi head, I'd have gone with a hybrid engine or a full 2.4 swap.

[GLHNSLHT2]

for the money factor id stick with a 2.4. Just grab a whole motor, should be cheaper at the jy than a single bare TIII head.


+1, full 2.4 is the best bang for your buck way to go. I picked up a whole 2.4 Turbo with 62k on it for $500. J-yards have these motors for that or a little more. My friend picked his up for 1100ish.

[86Shelby]

The ported TIII numbers Wallace gives in the TD thread mirror what my head flows as well. It's very close to a stock GM LS6 head at the same lift.

[zin]

TIII for "originality"/style points, 2.4L stuff for practicalities and power potential (with only a minor breaking of the bank!).

My .02cents anyway!

Mike

[Sgt Craig]

Yes there is a difference in neon heads.The DOHC neon head is probally the most common,lots of intake /exhaust mani choice,PT head has differnt exhaust Mani pattern and if i remeber correctly Intake(been awhile since ive messed with them),The turbo 2.4 stuff is also different.The 420a(non turbo talon/eclipse)Has the exhaust in front,intake in back.The valve cover from the 420a T/E will fit a neon DOHC head,but will leak oil into the park plug tubes due to the t/e head tubes being slightly offset and vice versa.

There is some more info here in this thread on neons.org http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=390738

[Ondonti]

I worry a bit about the functionality of the Neon head since people seem to have lifter troubles and more importantly, high rpm issues and then on the bottom end side I don't know how many rpms the 2.5 bottom can handle in a hybrid setup, especially with stock rods. I like more of each.

[iTurbo]

I am obviously biased because I have no experience with the Neon or any later 2.0/2.4 heads period. However, I have had a lot of experience working on and daily driving Spirit R/Ts for the last 10 years. I delivered pizza in a Spirit R/T for several years and about 40k miles with barely any issues at all.

I will say that I like the TIII. I never had or experienced I-shaft failures, or cracked cylinder heads. I know some people have, but I believe for the most part those problems are overblown. There are fixes out there to address those problems nowadays, and careful buying of certain parts (head) from reputable sources will save you a lot of grief. Some people won't consider a TIII because parts are 'rare', but there is always somebody out there parting an R/T car or TIII engine out. I wouldn't say anything is 'rare', and things like aftermarket forged pistons, rods etc..are going to cost some money no matter what setup you choose, and those aftermarket parts are generally available right off the shelf for the TIII from vendors. The TIII will also bolt into most turbo Mopars without any issues. Some adaptations have to be made for the L-body however.

Me personally, I wouldn't consider a hybrid setup. A lot of this has to do with my very limited fabrication skills. You'll have to do a lot of research on what parts will work together, what kind of engine management will work, possibly some custom mounted distributor, and lots of other custom parts that are probably not available off the shelf should you run into problems.

I would consider running a later 2.4 engine in it's entirety though, but even then you'll have to make your own custom motor mounts or find somebody that can, make modifications to run an earlier transaxle, and then have a heck of a lot of research and work to do to get some kind of engine management working on it, requisite custom calibration, rewiring a bunch of stuff to work with whatever engine management etc...




For me, I would go TIII all the way. It all bolts up and if your custom fabrication skills (or access to that) is severely limited it is so much easier in the end. The parts don't grow on trees, but they aren't rare enough to be prohibitively expensive or hard to find like is the case with the Maserati 16v. There are durability issues but those are well documented and can be addressed and taken care of during build/install. There may be some wiring work involved in getting connectors to reach where they need to go. If you have an earlier LM/PM or SMEC car, a wiring harness transplant may be needed, but that is about the worst of it. The TIII is "period correct" too, so in my opinion they are just a lot more at home under the hood of any 80s or 90s turbo Mopar.

[nvysion]

There are a lot of good infos here. What I would like to know is :

For the TIII setup, what is needed to do the conversion :
- head, cams,
- stock TIII intake and exhaust manifolds ?
- do the cam gear has to be changed ?
- why the electronic should be changed ? Unless the intake (which is in the front IIRC) prevents using the 8V distributor ?
- stock 2.5L pistons or TIII ones ?
- ????

For the hybrid setup :
- new turbo valves ?
- which head gasket to use ?
- which intake and exhaust manifolds ?
- special cam gears ?
- custom distributors and sensors ?
- what other mods are required (oil, water) ?
- what are the other mods required ?

On the other hand, a ported 8V head with a F4 cam will be plug and play and perhaps less expensive even at $1500 vs the 16V setup.
Shadow is making near 500HP IIRC with a 8V engine.

[turismolover22]

The hybrid setup also requires drilling and plugging water and oil returns at the front of the block, and having those decked at a machine shop. Then you have to add hard lines from the head to the block to work around this.

Obviously the t3 just bolts up. Stock electronics can be used with a complete head, you would have to notch the back of a cam and run your dizzy off the head, i cant remember if someone was able to squeeze one under the t3 intake.

- - - Updated - - -

The hybrid setup also requires drilling and plugging water and oil returns at the front of the block, and having those decked at a machine shop. Then you have to add hard lines from the head to the block to work around this.

Obviously the t3 just bolts up. Stock electronics can be used with a complete head, you would have to notch the back of a cam and run your dizzy off the head, i cant remember if someone was able to squeeze one under the t3 intake.

[BadAssPerformance]

Hello,
I would like to know what are the pros and cons : which head flows more, cost, ease of install, .... with a 2.5L CB engine.

What parts are needed to do the conversion ?
Which neon head is best ?


Thanks

Not sure how much power you're looking for or your parts availability is in France, but a 2.4L turbo swap is also an option...

[nvysion]

Here you can find a few neons with 1.8L and 2.0L engines, some 2.4L Voyagers w/o turbo and a very few 2.4L turbo PT cruisers.
I don't know if a 2.4L NA would be something to look for or if it thay are quite different than the turbo engines.
If I knew what engine, what head and what trans to look for, I will begin my research.

For example there is a 2.0L neon with an auto trans for sale (very rare here where all cars were manuals), and I have read that this trans is very strong.
I found also a 1.8L neon manual for only 300 bucks, on the other hand, Turbo PT cruisers are sold for 8000 euros !

I will probably stay with a 8V engine since it is the easiest way and I have already many parts (HE351, exhaust header, H beam rods, FWD main caps, ...) but when I see an hybrid engine I would give my ex-mother in law for it, lol

[glhs875]

Here you can find a few neons with 1.8L and 2.0L engines, some 2.4L Voyagers w/o turbo and a very few 2.4L turbo PT cruisers.
I don't know if a 2.4L NA would be something to look for or if it thay are quite different than the turbo engines.
If I knew what engine, what head and what trans to look for, I will begin my research.

For example there is a 2.0L neon with an auto trans for sale (very rare here where all cars were manuals), and I have read that this trans is very strong.
I found also a 1.8L neon manual for only 300 bucks, on the other hand, Turbo PT cruisers are sold for 8000 euros !

I will probably stay with a 8V engine since it is the easiest way and I have already many parts (HE351, exhaust header, H beam rods, FWD main caps, ...) but when I see an hybrid engine I would give my ex-mother in law for it, lol

I have one of those (ex mother in law). I did realize I could trade her for car parts, I will look into that! lol

[turbovanman²]

Obviously the t3 just bolts up. Stock electronics can be used with a complete head, you would have to notch the back of a cam and run your dizzy off the head, i cant remember if someone was able to squeeze one under the t3 intake.

Old thread but no, the dizzy will not fit under a stock TIII intake, you need to modify it, IE move the plenum out. I did that but then to service it, the intake has to come off.

[jonnymopar]

Damn, I was hoping to see more information in this thread now that it popped back up. Having had a full 2.4L swap for 8 years now, I'm a bit biased toward that. But I have always wanted to see what the differences actually were. It's not necessarily cut and dry TIII versus 2.4 either since there were changes to the 2.4 head starting in 2001.

I also wish someone would do a comparison with the SOHC Magnum head. Yes it's single-cam, but it is a decent-flowing 16V.

[turbovanman²]

For all out potential, I would say the 2.4 and TIII are identical. The 2.4 is cheaper to build and doesn't have exotic, expensive parts but as noted, the TIII is period correct. I think of the money spent and I could have built titanium 2.4 engines, lol.

The SOHC flows ok but can be make to flow better than an 8 valve.

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=263864