Help: Turbonator/custom cal initial timing setup

[wheming]

Still trying to sort through some things. But one thing I have not found is how to perform a timing check with a custom cal.
I'm using a v19 base 2.5 T1 BoostButton cal setup for 3 bar map and 85#/hr (@35psi) injectors.
When I disconnect the coolant temp sensor the car will not run, it stumbles and wants to stall and when I give it some throttle it just hunts.
Is there something I need to disable in the cal temporarily to set/check my initial/base/reference timing?

Last time I adjusted it I had to swap smecs and readjust fuel pressure to be able to check with my timing light. But now I have these BIG injectors and thats not going to work.
Thanks

[cordes]

Give it a bit more timing with the dist and it should stay running.

[ShelGame]

Still trying to sort through some things. But one thing I have not found is how to perform a timing check with a custom cal.
I'm using a v19 base 2.5 T1 BoostButton cal setup for 3 bar map and 85#/hr (@35psi) injectors.
When I disconnect the coolant temp sensor the car will not run, it stumbles and wants to stall and when I give it some throttle it just hunts.
Is there something I need to disable in the cal temporarily to set/check my initial/base/reference timing?

Last time I adjusted it I had to swap smecs and readjust fuel pressure to be able to check with my timing light. But now I have these BIG injectors and thats not going to work.
Thanks

Engine warm or cold? I'd for sure try to do this with the engine warm. It will be way too rich (cold) with those injectors.

[wheming]

Give it a bit more timing with the dist and it should stay running.

I'm trying to check and set the dist timing reference.
I had it set to about 10 btdc at sdac but I had swapped computers to do it. Now that won't work with these 1000cc injectors.

Yes Rob, always trying warm.
When it sees the coolant temp fail, it must fail low so it thinks it needs more fuel? It should be in limp home mode, right? I don't think I could ever limp home like that! It won't stay running. It stumbles and rpms are low and when you catch it with some throttle it hunts.
How are you all ever checking your timing with it like that?
Is there a way to disable it temporarily or give it a fake value so it can run?
Or, is this an indication something else isn't right? Like off a cam tooth or something? I just can't see that for how good it runs normally.

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Aries_Turbo]

are all the limp in constants scaled for inj and map, Rob?

Brian

[ShelGame]

I'm trying to check and set the dist timing reference.
I had it set to about 10 btdc at sdac but I had swapped computers to do it. Now that won't work with these 1000cc injectors.

Yes Rob, always trying warm.
When it sees the coolant temp fail, it must fail low so it thinks it needs more fuel? It should be in limp home mode, right? I don't think I could ever limp home like that! It won't stay running. It stumbles and rpms are low and when you catch it with some throttle it hunts.
How are you all ever checking your timing with it like that?
Is there a way to disable it temporarily or give it a fake value so it can run?
Or, is this an indication something else isn't right? Like off a cam tooth or something? I just can't see that for how good it runs normally.

Thanks for any suggestions!

With the CTS unplugged, it defaults to a coolant temp of ~180F.

My guess is that those injectors are just too big to get a decent idle. At idle, the PW for 1000cc injectors is probably less than the latency. Which means it's impossible to get a small enough PW to idle at a 'normal' AFR. What are your AFR's when you unplug the CTS?

- - - Updated - - -


are all the limp in constants scaled for inj and map, Rob?

Brian

There's nothing to scale for coolant temp...

[wheming]

I'll have to check what the afr reads when doing this. But the +40's did the same thing as well.

I'd try to get a log but I've never been able to sort out the logging issues either.

[Aries_Turbo]

There's nothing to scale for coolant temp...

just wondering. :)

wayne, back off the fuel pressure as you unplug it till it runs well. then try.

Brian

[wheming]

I haven't yet tried to lower fuel pressure. I'm running these 95#/hr ones at 35 psi (85#/hr). Don't know if I'll be able to lower pressure enough.

Also checked a min ago since I had to go out. With coolant temp sensor unplugged and engine warm the afr was 10.2. And rpm was about 500. It stayed running but wasn't happy.
I thought the rpm's were supposed to rise with the sensor unplugged?

When I tried to check with a timing light before like this timing was all over the place. But trying to give it more throttle smooths out the timing to a more constant value. But then the rpms hunt.
I had previously checked the shutter on the dizzy and it was modded with some JB. I will probably check again though.

[cordes]

The timing mark jumping all over when the CTS is unplugged is highly indicative of a mechanical problem in the dist.

[wheming]

It was seeming to me it was the computer's attempt to keep it from stalling. It showed a more steady timing value when throttled up a bit, although then it would hunt.
But I will check it tomorrow and possibly just order another.

[cordes]

Unless I'm mistaken, with the CTS unplugged, the cal reverts to nothing more than the distributor timing, which is why you do that to set it in the first place. I would be highly suspect of a bouncing line with the CTS unplugged.

[wheming]

If that is the case, why would the afr drop from 14.7 to 10.2?
Maybe I have more than one issue...

[ShelGame]

If that is the case, why would the afr drop from 14.7 to 10.2?
Maybe I have more than one issue...

Using a charge temp sensor? Try turning it off in the cal, at least to set timing. It could be the IAT is going to default also. If it can run 14.x when in closed loop idle, then its not the big injectors...

[88C/S]

I would get another distributor, JB Weld on the shutter could be suspect. Have Rob's cal with 95# injectors and can set the timing by unplugging the CTS with no problem. Running 43 psi on the regulator IIRC.

[wheming]

Using a charge temp sensor? Try turning it off in the cal, at least to set timing. It could be the IAT is going to default also. If it can run 14.x when in closed loop idle, then its not the big injectors...

No charge temp sensor.
Yes idles fine normally and hovers right at 14.7
And the cal does have the charge temp sensor disabled.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll probably order a dist.

[ShelGame]

Another thing that might be causing the richness and timing to move around is, if the RPM drops too far, the ECU may go into 'starting mode'; in which case the fuel and spark will be different from the basic setup timing. But, IIRC, that RPM is ~533rpm. So, it would have to drop pretty far down...

[wheming]

Which it is doing. I didn't have the scanner on it but looked like about 500. Barely enough to keep running.

So what would make the idle rpm so low? Does the goal change when CTS is unplugged?

[ShelGame]

Which it is doing. I didn't have the scanner on it but looked like about 500. Barely enough to keep running.

So what would make the idle rpm so low? Does the goal change when CTS is unplugged?

Could be the base throttle opening is too low. There's a method to set the throttle stop screw on the TB, I forget the exact procedure.

[cordes]

Could be the base throttle opening is too low. There's a method to set the throttle stop screw on the TB, I forget the exact procedure.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/knowledge.php?title=Engines:Base-Idle-Adjustment

[wheming]

I thought the drb 2 had a timing check selection, but I couldn't find it. Maybe that was on another car like my 91.
I'm going to see what I can do.

[wheming]

Only wiggle in dist is the gear lash. No slop in shutter, dowel is tight too.

Tried lower fp down with cts unplugged and drb set to try to maintain 1100 rpm idle test. No go.
Pig rich, rpms low (drb showed rpms bouncing from 500-600) fp only could make it down to 20.

Maybe something is weird with the cal?
Should I try another for timing? And which? I dont want to have to swap injectors for a timing check.

[wheming]

CTS reads 70 unplugged according to drb. Then inj pw goes from 2 mS to 7.7 mS.
Of course afr then hits 9.5-10 and I start smoking out my neighbors...

[ShelGame]

Raise the min idle speed via the set screw on the TB so that it will idle at 800rpm or so with the CTS unplugged. See if that doesn't clear up the richness. Then try to set timing.

EDIT: Another thought - edit the fuel from charge temp table and set all the points to 0.

[wheming]

I ran through a min airflow test and set min airflow rpm to about 800. With cts uplugged it still stumbles and idles lower than that.

I'll check the cal for that charge temp you said. But I do know charge temp sensor is unchecked in the configuration.

[wheming]

Rob, should I do anything with the "cold load from coolant temp" modifiers?
Like I said the drb was displaying a coolant temp of 70 with the CTS unplugged.

[ShelGame]

I ran through a min airflow test and set min airflow rpm to about 800. With cts uplugged it still stumbles and idles lower than that.

I'll check the cal for that charge temp you said. But I do know charge temp sensor is unchecked in the configuration.

I know, but set that table to 0 for good measure.

[wheming]

I know, but set that table to 0 for good measure.

That made no difference.

[ShelGame]

Doh! Try this - Utilities - On-Board Diagnostics - Default Coolant Temp. Set it to ~200 (the scale was left off, oops).

[wheming]

Thats /utilty/on-board diagnostics/DefaultEngineTemp 03DEFTMP?

I'll try that.

Update!
That seems to have done the trick!
It stayed running and sounded good and purring just fine. Afr was normal/lean but fine to check with timing light.
Now just need her to fully warm and I'll see what I got.
I had backed it off at sdac because of knock retard but want to set it back to 12 and learn how to adjust it from MPTune.

Thanks for getting me squared away Rob, and all.

Next up a thread to figure out why I'm getting knock retard at 18psi...

[ShelGame]

It looks like that's a mistake in some of the templates. I'll update them and re-post later...

[Aries_Turbo]

what was it set to rob?

i remember this being a problem on jon trotters car one time. 87 lm cal

[ShelGame]

what was it set to rob?

i remember this being a problem on jon trotters car one time. 87 lm cal

Its not the same setup in the LM cals. I never set that up to disable the IAT.

But, it was set to 68F in a couple of the templates...

[wheming]

The value on mine was 149 before changing it to 200.
Seems like it shouldn't have defaulted to *that* rich as thats not really cold.
I'd have to look at those engine cold modifiers again but when the drb showed 70, the enrichment was like +30%

[ShelGame]

The value on mine was 149 before changing it to 200.
Seems like it shouldn't have defaulted to *that* rich as thats not really cold.
I'd have to look at those engine cold modifiers again but when the drb showed 70, the enrichment was like +30%

The scale isn't set though. The default temp was 68F.

[wheming]

Do I need to set the scale? And how?
All I did was enter a value of 200

[ShelGame]

Do I need to set the scale? And how?
All I did was enter a value of 200

Not necessary, but you can if you want to. Down in the lower RH corner of the MP Tune screen, there's a place for y-Axis values. They'll be 0 and 255; change them to -200 and 260; change the description to CoolatnTemp and the units to DegF.

[wheming]

That has got me thinking...
If on of these sensor scales are off on something else, could that be causing my datalog anomalies?

Could the same cause me to be getting a knock retard even though I should be safe? I'm on 22cc dished pistons with a .065" headgasket and a 287 head. My compression should be able to take 18psi without getting knock retard. Afr's were like 11.5 iirc.

[ShelGame]

That has got me thinking...
If on of these sensor scales are off on something else, could that be causing my datalog anomalies?

Could the same cause me to be getting a knock retard even though I should be safe? I'm on 22cc dished pistons with a .065" headgasket and a 287 head. My compression should be able to take 18psi without getting knock retard. Afr's were like 11.5 iirc.

The scaling factors are only used by MP Tune or MP Scan. They shouldn't affect the cal, unless you've tuned one of the few that doesn't have a fully defined scale...

[wheming]

If those scaling factors are off, do you think it would go to like a fail high state?
Seems like whenever I logged and went full throttle, when the boost would be coming up or peak, that is when the trends would flake out.

I guess looking at every parameter I was trending is where I should start.
I wouldn't know where to start on what the scales should be though.

[ShelGame]

If those scaling factors are off, do you think it would go to like a fail high state?
Seems like whenever I logged and went full throttle, when the boost would be coming up or peak, that is when the trends would flake out.

I guess looking at every parameter I was trending is where I should start.
I wouldn't know where to start on what the scales should be though.

No, again the ECU doesn't know the scaling factors. Or rather, the actual scaling factors are built in.

The factors you can adjust in MP Tune are only used by MP Tune to show you the data the way the ECU reads it. If the scaling factor is wrong, its only wrong to you. The ECU still knows the correct scale.

[wheming]

Sorry, I mean for how MPScan reads the data. That scaling doesn't effect how the data gets displayed?

When those datalogs go all wacky, there wasn't any indication of a problem as far as how the engine was running.

[ShelGame]

Sorry, I mean for how MPScan reads the data. That scaling doesn't effect how the data gets displayed?

When those datalogs go all wacky, there wasn't any indication of a problem as far as how the engine was running.

MP Scan has it's own scaling factors for each channel. There are ECU min/max and Display min/max. BUt, I believe if the ECU value goes over the display max, you just get the max. It doesn't do anything else funky...