The Flying Tool Shed wasn't flying, its sucked a*s!

[turbovanman²]

Well, I this proves the patented butt meter lies. I thought it pulled better up top with the G-head but alas, it wasn't so.
This time, gas tank was really low so I put 2 gallons C16 in, so I would venture to say 90% pure. Boost at roughly 26 ish, timing 16 deg, stage, thought the run felt good, 14.0@94mph. EGT's were high 1600, Dawes yellow with green flashing.
Phone Frank, so I take out 2 deg timing, turn up the boost, stage and run, 14.1@96mph, EGT's were scary at 17-1800, can't say as guage stops at 1600 but it over alot. WTF is going on???? Boost at 28.
Go back to 12 deg, bottom out boost controller-Dawes with a copper ferule in it, turn on alky with 50/50 of meth. Do a wicked burnout, stage, 29psi, EGT's pegged again, and another whopping 14.0@94 mph run.
So, needless to say, I am very upset, going thru that whole quitting thing again, alot of work this week to lose 1/2 sec. I know my cal isn't right but I doubt it would get me into the 13's or 12's? It just doesn't pull on the top end. I think I am just going to throw a stock swirl head back on with the stock cam and call it a year. Thoughts, opinions?

[Una]

You are going the wrong way with the timing.. High EGT's are showing that the fuel is still burning on it's way out.. The timing is way too retarded.. Should have tried pushing it past 16.. I know you can't see the timing mark anymore, so you're kinda flying blind there, but go slowly up and watch the EGT's react..

[MiniMopar]

What's your A/F?

[turbovanman²]

Ok, I will advance the base timing tomorrow and see what happens on the way to work. That could explain why my idle vacuum is so low.

[glhs875]

Your going about it all wrong. If the egt's were high and got higher with less timing you need to add more timing. And 10 degrees advance on the cam is defintely what's killing your top end. And if your not even close to the point of detonation, race gas is not needed or even wanted, that could slow you down some with things like they are! Get the cal right (alot closer to the point of detonation) but not over like you were before, before you make a judgement. After your new rings seat better the idle vacum will most likely get better also. I pull 14" to 15" with a highly ported big valve G head and an S3 cam at only 2 deg advance!!! It's not the head thats the problem if it's a known good flowing one anyway. It's alot of other things for sure. You may need to just give up if your going to keep going about things in this way!

[glhs875]

A G-Head can run really good with PROPER tuning. The fast 8V cars at this last SDAC were running one (Warren, Reeves). Kevin Davis tried a swirl on his Charger and had problems with detonation. Swithed to G head and AFTER tuning things in with his SDS went low 7's @ 100+ mph in the 1/8th. I use a G head and Iam sitting in 3rd place (from what is known) in the 1/8th on pure street radials with more to come. All Iam trying to say is, if things are right, a G head can run just as good as a swirl, probably better!

[Frank]

I only wanted to see you turn down the timing once to see if you had to much base timing on the low end.... I guess it was hard to explain over the phone.

Here is what you need to do... dont drag race until you do...

Put a stock stall speed TQ in it.
Put a stock cam and pulley on it.
Wait for your new G-Head Calibration. (biggest problem, not your fault)
Set boost to 15psi.
Turn alky to a minimum if on at all.
Run it on the track. Feel good?
Set boost to 20psi then add some alky.

That order and nothing else!



Frank

[glhs875]

I only wanted to see you turn down the timing once to see if you had to much base timing on the low end.... I guess it was hard to explain over the phone.

Here is what you need to do... dont drag race until you do...

Put a stock stall speed TQ in it.
Put a stock cam and pulley on it.
Wait for your new G-Head Calibration. (biggest problem, not your fault)
Set boost to 15psi.
Turn alky to a minimum if on at all.
Run it on the track. Feel good?
Set boost to 20psi then add some alky.

That order and nothing else!



Frank

Not a bad idea at all! But why a stock stall speed? That could hurt spoolup somewhat with a hybrid turbo if the one he has is a higher than stock stall.

[Frank]

Not at all. I am running a stock stall speed in my 3200lb Daytona. I love it... even have the tallest gears in it. It spools hard and fast. His stall speed is currently at 4300rpms.... that just isnt going to cut it in that heavy van of his. I think that high is hurting him. What is the proper speed for his van, I dont know, but we do know how it should and act under a known condition... aka the stock stall speed. I want him to get a Nan with say 3500 stall speed.


Frank

[Dave]

Go back to basics is what you gotta do. Stock parts work, and they work well to a point. I'd say change the cam and pulley and as Frank said the TC and see what happens.

[boost geek]

Sorry for flakin' on ya last night! Sometimes I have a feeling that it would be a bad night to go for me, and I didn't have time to swap an engine today if I blew it, plus no tow vehicle. At least you didn't break anything!:thumb:
Hope you make it to the track again this year! Maybe next friday for me...

[turbovanman²]

Frank, my stall is 4000 but I won't change that out until it fails.

As for the other stuff, I slept on it and I was going to put the stock cam back in today and drive it around. The Swirl loved my S2 but this head doesn't like it.

I thought Reeves had a Swirl head?

[glhs875]

Not at all. I am running a stock stall speed in my 3200lb Daytona. I love it... even have the tallest gears in it. It spools hard and fast. His stall speed is currently at 4300rpms.... that just isnt going to cut it in that heavy van of his. I think that high is hurting him. What is the proper speed for his van, I dont know, but we do know how it should and act under a known condition... aka the stock stall speed. I want him to get a Nan with say 3500 stall speed.


Frank

It might help, or it might not. That much stall shouldn't hurt if the converter gets very effiecient and tightens up after that point. But nothing tried, nothing gained!

[glhs875]

I thought Reeves had a Swirl head?

Not according from what Ken said.

[Frank]

I thought he was running Ken's old Steve M. swirl head... I know he used to have a G-head. Unless Ken confiscated it back for his 2.2. Who knows!!!!


Frank

[turbovanman²]

Guess we'll have to ask Ken. I know Ken likes the Swirl on light cars, aka the Omni, :nod:

[csxtra]

Reeves is running a G-head (slightly looked at by Mr. Menegon:eyebrows:).

Also Simon, if you are going to run Alky, run it straight, not 50/50. That is what Reeves and I are running, and Steve Calder did some dyno testing and found no advantage of 50/50 over straight methanol.

The only advantage to 50/50 is that it makes some "marginally methanol safe" injection systems last longer, which is why it is touted so much. Also, running straight Methanol instead of 50/50 eliminates one more tuning variable (although running Alky in itself is already adding another variable).

Don't get frustrated, the G-head is GREAT for a 2.5, once you get it tuned in.

Hope this helps,
Warren

[turbovanman²]

Thanks Warren. I just bought Boost juice, its premixed so no mess, no fuss and thats all they had. :eyebrows:

As for tuning, yes, I should know better by now, but its still frustrating, I have been chasing the magic number for years :(

Advanced my timing coming to work, just moved the distributor, no timing light, I would guess around 18 deg base, EGT's came down to 12-1300, :thumb:

[My96z]

Seems like you are having the same problems I am Simon. Hope I havent cursed you.

[GLHSKEN]

I thought he was running Ken's old Steve M. swirl head... I know he used to have a G-head. Unless Ken confiscated it back for his 2.2. Who knows!!!!


Frank
Y'all crack me up. Remember the old campfire time. The ranger get's 10 people and lines them up and whispers a story in the 1st person's ear. Then it's passed along. At the end they compare the 1st story with the last persons story and they are different. The ranger proudly declares he's caught a line of suckers!!!

SUCKERS!!!

I'm running REEVES old swirl head (it outflowes his +1mmg valve head.. Yes, he's running a G head!!)


I would not run a G on a 2.2... I WOULD run a G on a 2.5... as James does (quite well I'll add)

[turbovanman²]

Seems like you are having the same problems I am Simon. Hope I havent cursed you.


I am cursed, just can't deal with it.

[Hemidare]

Hey Simon where are those vids from friday night? Wanna see our race where you raped me!

[turbovanman²]

I will get them all hosted and put them up.

BTW, put the stock 89 cam back in, runs so much better, 18 inch's of vacuum, seems to pull harder at 20 psi so we'll see on Friday night I guess.

[Una]

hehe, everyone keeps saying, stock cam is the way to go in our cars..

[turbovanman²]

hehe, everyone keeps saying, stock cam is the way to go in our cars..


I would agree to a point, my swirl loved the S2 cam but never got to try it back to back.

[Hemidare]

Cool man and i rerouted my intercooler pipes and it pulls way harder and no whistling noise. Sounds like a frikking supercharger, sounds cool. I keep on blowing one hose off. Pisses me off.

[Directconnection]

You are going the wrong way with the timing.. High EGT's are showing that the fuel is still burning on it's way out.. The

No... the unburned fuel can give a false reading of low egts when in fact, they can be high. This is one good reason not to place the egt probe too close to the head. I learned this one from turbojerry and 5d.

[turbovanman²]

No... the unburned fuel can give a false reading of low egts when in fact, they can be high. This is one good reason not to place the egt probe too close to the head. I learned this one from turbojerry and 5d.

Maybe so but I advanced the timing and it lowered the EGT's, :D

[Frank]

Whats just as crazy is that EGTs can actually lower again for A/Fs near 21:1 for cruise... special application stuff, but interesting none the less!

[Aries_Turbo]

unless you have some serious mods to get it to run 21:1 afr (lean burn quench stuff) youll have a hard time making the engine run decent on 21:1... Ive hit 17:1 on part throttle in vaccum on occasion (old cal issue) and it misfires like crazy. I doubt hes near there.

Brian

[Frank]

Oh I know... I was making a point about the effects of EGT... nothing more...

[cordes]

Honestly, if it were me, I would wait on the new cal. and then run it from there. It won't take long to recieve I would immagine. Run it with the new cal, and see what happens. If that does not work then I might try swapping cams etc. I just don't see any thing that is really out of place as far as what others are doing with their setups for me to suggest going back to stock cam etc. just yet.

[turbovanman²]

Honestly, it didn't like that cam, it idled poorly and around 12 inches of vacuum. With the stocker back in, it runs alot better and has 18 inches of vacuum. Seems to pull harder too.
I can always run it like this, then put the S2 back in and see if it goes slower or faster or dyno like this-with the proper cal of course then put the S2 in and go back.

[Directconnection]

Oh I know... I was making a point about the effects of EGT... nothing more...

Same here