Carburetor Choices

[Spraynlog]

I'm needing to replace a 17 year old Rochester Q-Jet on my 85 Ramcharger, which has a mild 360 in it with a 4 speed NP435 and 3.23 gears. I'm looking at the Edelbrock 600 cfm and the Holley street avenger for a couple choices. It needs to pass emissions test. Opinions on which carb is best?

[black86glhs]

The Edelbrock Q-jet carbs are pretty hard to beat. They are much more reliable than the Q-jet. Can I have your old one?

[Force Fed Mopar]

The Holley Truck Avengers are pretty good.

[shackwrrr]

If you want tunability and power get a holley, if you want simple and reliable then a edelbrock is good. The holleys have lots of things that you can tune (depending on model) like main jets, power valves, idle mixture, secondary opening rate, pump shot amount, air bleeds, float height, and a few other things that are completely useless on a daily driver. If any of those little passages get clogged then you have a driveability issue. On the edelbrock, all you really have is main jet, metering rod, metering rod springs, and idle mixture. Once you select a main jet size, everything else you can change right from the top of the carb.

I love holleys if you need one but I ran an Eddy on my jeep and it ran great, no weird crap for it run on inclines and metering rods do a great job of making a smooth power band. On the dyno my torque "curve" was literally a strait line from off idle to 5K where I let off.

---------- Post added at 12:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 AM ----------

If you do go for a holley go for a truck avenger, they have annular boosters that atomize the fuel better for better mixture/mileage.

[contraption22]

I've heard nothing but great things about Edelbrock carbs. As others have said, Holley for tunability, Edelbrock for reliability and drivability with little tuning if any.

[roachjuice]

The Edelbrock Q-jet carbs are pretty hard to beat. They are much more reliable than the Q-jet. Can I have your old one?

+1! Great carb.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Edelbrocks work great and are simple, but need the springs changed for large cams. Stock to mild came, they are usually fine out of the box.

[turbovanman²]

I've played with and tuned them all, by far the best running carb with the best MPG, cold running is the Qjet, followed by the AFB then the Holley. The best thing about the AFB is tuning, its easy to access the metering rods and springs but if you get then if you get the Qjet rebuilt, jetting isn't needed. I have found every AFB out of the box is pig rich, even my warmed over 360 needed the 1406 leaned out at least one to two jet size's. Find someone local for the Qjet or send it to me, :eyebrows:

[DevoBuzz]

I am wrestling with what to do with my QJet right now. It needs a rebuild for my soon to be built 461 CI Pontiac motor. Was gonna send it to Cliff ruggles (one of the big names in the Pontiac world) but he is like 12 months backed up with carb rebuilds. He literally wrote the book on how to rebuild/modify the QJet. So I am debating if I should tackle it myself or send it out to a local shop or buy one...

[turbovanman²]

I am wrestling with what to do with my QJet right now. It needs a rebuild for my soon to be built 461 CI Pontiac motor. Was gonna send it to Cliff ruggles (one of the big names in the Pontiac world) but he is like 12 months backed up with carb rebuilds. He literally wrote the book on how to rebuild/modify the QJet. So I am debating if I should tackle it myself or send it out to a local shop or by one...

It honestly took me 2-3 rebuilds to get them right, then after that, you don't forget. If you are good at taking things apart and putting them back together, then tackle it but if it needs tuning, then it can be a royal pain. Getting one done IE Edelbrock or maybe get the Pontiac guy to sell you the rods, jets etc.

[DevoBuzz]

I would think the Edelbrock ones would need tuning as well. Don't think they are setup for big cubes/cam. I already have the book on how to rebuild it. Would need a place to start for jets and rods for my setup.

[Spraynlog]

The Edelbrock Q-jet carbs are pretty hard to beat. They are much more reliable than the Q-jet. Can I have your old one?I looked for one of those, but Edelbrock quit making them in 2002.

[4 l-bodies]

I am wrestling with what to do with my QJet right now. It needs a rebuild for my soon to be built 461 CI Pontiac motor. Was gonna send it to Cliff ruggles (one of the big names in the Pontiac world) but he is like 12 months backed up with carb rebuilds. He literally wrote the book on how to rebuild/modify the QJet. So I am debating if I should tackle it myself or send it out to a local shop or buy one...
Pick up the book on Rochester carbs by Doug Roe and Bill Fisher if you don't already have it. It is worth every penny. These guys modified them alot too. I used to race a .060 over 428 with round port heads (Ram IV) in my 70 GTO. I was one of the few at the dragstrip that stuck with the Q-jet. I actually ended up using the slightly bigger Buick Q-jet and modifying it quite a bit. If your committed to staying with the Q-jet, rebuild it yourself and learn how it works. No one, no matter who rebuilds it, is going to make it perfect the first time for your particular car if it's modified at all, so IMO just learn to do it yourself because you will be taking it apart anyways.
Just make sure your starting with a good core. One that the airhorn isn't all warped (up front) and one that throttle shafts aren't all worn out, and screws aren't all stripped out on. These things are ancient and finding a good core is half the battle. I also suggest buying a wide band and weld in a o2 bung so tuning will be greatly simplified.

Todd

[ShadowFromHell]

If your going to be going off-road at all, I would be looking at the q-jet out of all your choices. With a couple simple mod's its a great off-road carb. Most aftermarket "car" carbs will not work worth a crap once you are on anything other then flat ground. My dad had a AFB on his Jeep at one time and 100% not joking or exaggerating that thing almost killed us more then once. He put alot of off-road miles on his q-jet before switching to the truck avenger he currently runs.

[DevoBuzz]

Yeah - you can reman ones from Summit and Jegs. Edlebrock versions are no longer available. I have "How To Rebuild and Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carbs" by Cliff Ruggles. Never rebuilt one before but may give it a shot. Cliff sells the rebuild kits with all the neede parts. http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/

[turbovanman²]

Pick up the book on Rochester carbs by Doug Roe and Bill Fisher if you don't already have it. It is worth every penny. These guys modified them alot too. I used to race a .060 over 428 with round port heads (Ram IV) in my 70 GTO. I was one of the few at the dragstrip that stuck with the Q-jet. I actually ended up using the slightly bigger Buick Q-jet and modifying it quite a bit. If your committed to staying with the Q-jet, rebuild it yourself and learn how it works. No one, no matter who rebuilds it, is going to make it perfect the first time for your particular car if it's modified at all, so IMO just learn to do it yourself because you will be taking it apart anyways.
Just make sure your starting with a good core. One that the airhorn isn't all warped (up front) and one that throttle shafts aren't all worn out, and screws aren't all stripped out on. These things are ancient and finding a good core is half the battle. I also suggest buying a wide band and weld in a o2 bung so tuning will be greatly simplified.

Todd

I've learned that if the car runs ok with the carb, its a good candidate for a rebuild, if you have weird issues, find another one. I have at least a dozen of them here to use for parts and cores.

Also when you put it back together, leave the plug off in the air horn so you can access the mixture adjustment, I made a tool using brake line.

Worn shaft bushings are easy, I have the tool to sleeve them, :eyebrows: You will most likely not find a core with no shaft play unless its been rebuilt already. STAY away from store rebuilds, they are pure junk, 1 in 10 actually works, :(


Yeah - you can reman ones from Summit and Jegs. Edlebrock versions are no longer available. I have "How To Rebuild and Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carbs" by Cliff Ruggles. Never rebuilt one before but may give it a shot. Cliff sells the rebuild kits with all the neede parts. http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/

I would get a hold of them, and get him to send what he thinks are the right primary and secondary metering rods and main jets. It will give you a baseline.

[zin]

Send your Q-Jet to the Carb Shop or someone similarly knowledgeable and can replace the shaft bushings and you'll be in good shape. The Q-Jet gets a bad rap, but they are really a pretty good carb if you know how to tune them, which is a little more complicated than a Holley, but then that's also one of the reasons why they run better, they have finer adjustments.

That said, if you want a new carb, the Truck Avenger is a great choice, though I doubt you'd get it through a smog test...

Mike

PS If you want to do the work yourself, or just want to know more about them, this is a great book: http://www.amazon.com/Rochester-Carburetors-Doug-Roe/dp/0895863014

[135sohc]

I'm putting an edelbrock thunder AVS (500 cfm version) on my 318 B-van to replace the pos BBD. I heard the same things in this thread about the holley vs edelbrock and for me the simplicity and support edelbrock offered sold me. Edelbrocks two main carbs are actually updated versions of the carter AFB and AVS carbs from back in the day.

[Force Fed Mopar]

The Eddy are a piece of cake to tune, downside is you have to buy a $50 tuning kit, the pieces aren't available separately.

[turbovanman²]

The Eddy are a piece of cake to tune, downside is you have to buy a $50 tuning kit, the pieces aren't available separately.

Yes they are, you can buy metering rods and jets, springs by themselves.

[black86glhs]

I looked for one of those, but Edelbrock quit making them in 2002.Damn. I swear I was still seeing them at Summit. Unless that was their newer line of carbs??? Hmmmm.


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-9951/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1406/overview/


I know the 9951 part number carb is GM. The 1406 is a universal. Probably have to use an adapter to fit this square bore carb on your manifold.
Sorry about that. It has been a while since I looked at carbs and didn't know they had stopped making them for the Dodges.

[3.0 van gogh]

Q jet is the best choice for the street and the mid 80's mopar Q jets are very good units.I have one on my Power Wagon (on the 318). They are set up actually better than the Chevy truck carbs of the late 70s (which are notoriously lean because of the huge air bleeds). ALSO, there are no electronics whatsoever. I also specialize in rebuilding them. You really do not need to do much. Maybe jets and a different spring for the power piston. Secondary rods are easy to change out on the car.

[black86glhs]

I used to rebuild them often for all my friends and at Oldsmobile. They are easy.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Yes they are, you can buy metering rods and jets, springs by themselves.

Really? I remember looking and not finding the metering rod springs separately. Links?

[turbovanman²]

Really? I remember looking and not finding the metering rod springs separately. Links?

Do you have the tuning book that comes with the carb, it lists all the part numbers in it. I can't find it now but google turned up this website for parts. I'll look later for the book, then call your local speed shop and order what you need.

http://quadrajetparts.com/carteredelbrock-afb-avs-parts-afb-avs-jets-rods-accessories-c-130_132.html?osCsid=07974efe7483078655f02fa52178ba 81

[Force Fed Mopar]

Do you have the tuning book that comes with the carb, it lists all the part numbers in it. I can't find it now but google turned up this website for parts. I'll look later for the book, then call your local speed shop and order what you need.

http://quadrajetparts.com/carteredelbrock-afb-avs-parts-afb-avs-jets-rods-accessories-c-130_132.html?osCsid=07974efe7483078655f02fa52178ba 81

Are you talking about Q-jet parts or AFB parts? I was talking about the Eddy AFB/AVS carbs.

[turbovanman²]

Are you talking about Q-jet parts or AFB parts? I was talking about the Eddy AFB/AVS carbs.

Yes, the Edelbrock AFB carb. You get a tuning book with it, it has charts inside that show richer and leaner with part numbers next to the jets and rods, so if you want, you order one by one.

http://store.edelbrock.com/meteringjetsforperformerandthundercarbs.aspx

[Spraynlog]

If the Ramcharger sits for a few days, the fuel drains out of the carb, and it won't pass emissions due to high HC, the limit is 220ppm, and it's putting out 3000. I am now using the vehicle as a daily driver, so I'm kind of in a no win situation. I'll have to do something this weekend I guess, the tags expire at the end of January. The 360 has an Edelbrock Performer intake on it, so I'm leaning (pun) toward the Eddy 1406 electric choke carb.

[shayne]

dumb question, what about a junkyard gm tbi swap? i have been tossing this idea around for my own r.c which is saddled with a nonfunctioning holley/chryser tbi 318.

[black86glhs]

If the Ramcharger sits for a few days, the fuel drains out of the carb, and it won't pass emissions due to high HC, the limit is 220ppm, and it's putting out 3000. I am now using the vehicle as a daily driver, so I'm kind of in a no win situation. I'll have to do something this weekend I guess, the tags expire at the end of January. The 360 has an Edelbrock Performer intake on it, so I'm leaning (pun) toward the Eddy 1406 electric choke carb.I'll bet the plugs are porous and its dumping into the intake. SOP for q-jets.

[zin]

Yep, a bit of epoxy will fix that! Probably fix the emissions issue too, as the fuel drips into the intake making it rich. Probably fails due to high HC. & CO... that book covers that fix as well as hot rodding it.

Mike

[Force Fed Mopar]

Yes, the Edelbrock AFB carb. You get a tuning book with it, it has charts inside that show richer and leaner with part numbers next to the jets and rods, so if you want, you order one by one.

http://store.edelbrock.com/meteringjetsforperformerandthundercarbs.aspx

Sweet! Thanks Simon :thumb:

---------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ----------


dumb question, what about a junkyard gm tbi swap? i have been tossing this idea around for my own r.c which is saddled with a nonfunctioning holley/chryser tbi 318.

What's wrong with it? I have a computer and a TB (minus injectors), wiring harness w/ solenoids and (I think) sensors, all from a '90 TBI van.

[turbovanman²]

If the Ramcharger sits for a few days, the fuel drains out of the carb, and it won't pass emissions due to high HC, the limit is 220ppm, and it's putting out 3000. I am now using the vehicle as a daily driver, so I'm kind of in a no win situation. I'll have to do something this weekend I guess, the tags expire at the end of January. The 360 has an Edelbrock Performer intake on it, so I'm leaning (pun) toward the Eddy 1406 electric choke carb.

That isn't a fuel issue, yes, they do leak but 3000 ppm HC is a miss, not running rich. If the carb was causing the issue, then your CO would be through the roof.

Just remember that if you put the 1406 on, it will need to be tuned, they are pig rich out of the box.


dumb question, what about a junkyard gm tbi swap? i have been tossing this idea around for my own r.c which is saddled with a nonfunctioning holley/chryser tbi 318.

We already talked about that, :censored: :lol:


Sweet! Thanks Simon :thumb:

---------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ----------



What's wrong with it? I have a computer and a TB (minus injectors), wiring harness w/ solenoids and (I think) sensors, all from a '90 TBI van.

No problem.

He has a carbed or TBI 318 that he wants to run properly, :p

[Spraynlog]

[QUOTE=turbovanman;975052]That isn't a fuel issue, yes, they do leak but 3000 ppm HC is a miss, not running rich. If the carb was causing the issue, then your CO would be through the roof.



Hmmm, It idles great at 800 rpm, pulls almost 18" of vacuum, and the plugs all looked clean when I pulled them. I'll try pulling off plug wires one at a time and see if there is one not firing. I'll take home some heavy rubber gloves from work!

[Spraynlog]

OK, problem solved. I got home with a pair of rubber gloves and started pulling plug wires one at a time with a vacuum gauge hooked up under the hood. I found #7 didn't make any change when I took it off. I checked them all, and then shut the motor down, thinking I'd replace the #7 plug wire and be good. I found another plug wire in my stash and installed it, and then it WOULDN'T START! The next step after checking everything out was to replace the HEI four pin module in my ignition system. (I put in a home made HEI setup using the Mopar distributor and a E coil from a Mustang GT) Bingo, it started right up and ran smoother right off. Today it passed the emission test and I got my tags. Thanks Simon for the tip about it "missing"! I should keep a spare HEI four pin in glove box, kinda like I did with the HEP on a TM.

[turbovanman²]

OK, problem solved. I got home with a pair of rubber gloves and started pulling plug wires one at a time with a vacuum gauge hooked up under the hood. I found #7 didn't make any change when I took it off. I checked them all, and then shut the motor down, thinking I'd replace the #7 plug wire and be good. I found another plug wire in my stash and installed it, and then it WOULDN'T START! The next step after checking everything out was to replace the HEI four pin module in my ignition system. (I put in a home made HEI setup using the Mopar distributor and a E coil from a Mustang GT) Bingo, it started right up and ran smoother right off. Today it passed the emission test and I got my tags. Thanks Simon for the tip about it "missing"! I should keep a spare HEI four pin in glove box, kinda like I did with the HEP on a TM.

No problem, glad I could help and save you some time and money, :thumb:

cough I take donations cough, :eyebrows:

[black86glhs]

I really would have thought you would have felt a misfire on that thing. Awesome it was something so simple.

[turbovanman²]

I really would have thought you would have felt a misfire on that thing. Awesome it was something so simple.

V8's can be deceptive.

[Force Fed Mopar]

OK, problem solved. I got home with a pair of rubber gloves and started pulling plug wires one at a time with a vacuum gauge hooked up under the hood. I found #7 didn't make any change when I took it off. I checked them all, and then shut the motor down, thinking I'd replace the #7 plug wire and be good. I found another plug wire in my stash and installed it, and then it WOULDN'T START! The next step after checking everything out was to replace the HEI four pin module in my ignition system. (I put in a home made HEI setup using the Mopar distributor and a E coil from a Mustang GT) Bingo, it started right up and ran smoother right off. Today it passed the emission test and I got my tags. Thanks Simon for the tip about it "missing"! I should keep a spare HEI four pin in glove box, kinda like I did with the HEP on a TM.

That is exactly why I think the HEI swap is a waste of time. Everybody says "Oh it's some much more reliable and starts better" blah blah blah, but it's not. Wiring is what plagues Chryslers more, not the actual components.

[Spraynlog]

That is exactly why I think the HEI swap is a waste of time. Everybody says "Oh it's some much more reliable and starts better" blah blah blah, but it's not. Wiring is what plagues Chryslers more, not the actual components.I'll disagree, somewhat...I've been left on the side of the road by a failed ballast resistor in the stock system. The HEI setup offers a much stronger spark for better starting and mileage. I gained 10% in mileage....OK, on the Ramcharger it was 1 mpg better, from 10 up to 11 mpg.

[black86glhs]

V8's can be deceptive.I have had V8s too and could tell. Very easy actually.

---------- Post added at 12:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 AM ----------


That is exactly why I think the HEI swap is a waste of time. Everybody says "Oh it's some much more reliable and starts better" blah blah blah, but it's not. Wiring is what plagues Chryslers more, not the actual components.I have owned so many GMs with HEI and they are not as breakdown prone as people say. Usually those that have problems don't use the grease that should be under the module. I see people put all other greases and pastes other than the right stuff and complain they are crap. I have never had a module die on me and I beat the crap out of every car I have owned. The issue is that there were so many HEI modules out there. Kind of like the ford modules that die. They don't go out near as often as you hear about, but there are a gazillion of them out there.
Then you add in the cheap aftermarket ones for both the GMs and Fords and it sounds much worse than it is. Very similar to the crappy aftermarket HEPs.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I'll disagree, somewhat...I've been left on the side of the road by a failed ballast resistor in the stock system. The HEI setup offers a much stronger spark for better starting and mileage. I gained 10% in mileage....OK, on the Ramcharger it was 1 mpg better, from 10 up to 11 mpg.

You can eliminate the ballast reistor by switching to a 12v coil...

---------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 AM ----------


I have had V8s too and could tell. Very easy actually.

---------- Post added at 12:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 AM ----------

I have owned so many GMs with HEI and they are not as breakdown prone as people say. Usually those that have problems don't use the grease that should be under the module. I see people put all other greases and pastes other than the right stuff and complain they are crap. I have never had a module die on me and I beat the crap out of every car I have owned. The issue is that there were so many HEI modules out there. Kind of like the ford modules that die. They don't go out near as often as you hear about, but there are a gazillion of them out there.
Then you add in the cheap aftermarket ones for both the GMs and Fords and it sounds much worse than it is. Very similar to the crappy aftermarket HEPs.

It is the same thing for the Chryslers. I've never had any of the hard parts go bad except for the ballast and 1 VR. There is the issue of cheap aftermarket parts though. You need to buy quality brands (and that does not always mean well-known brands).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the HEI is garbage (and I knew someone was gonna pull the "there's millions of them" card out :D), it's works good. I'm just saying it's not worth switching your Chrysler over to it because you aren't really gaining anything. I guarantee if you went over your 20+ year old wiring, cleaned/fixed/replaced any problems (worn/corroded connectors, fusible links, clean grounds etc), you will have minimal problems with the OEM ignition.

[black86glhs]

You can eliminate the ballast reistor by switching to a 12v coil...

---------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 AM ----------



It is the same thing for the Chryslers. I've never had any of the hard parts go bad except for the ballast and 1 VR. There is the issue of cheap aftermarket parts though. You need to buy quality brands (and that does not always mean well-known brands).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the HEI is garbage (and I knew someone was gonna pull the "there's millions of them" card out :D), it's works good. I'm just saying it's not worth switching your Chrysler over to it because you aren't really gaining anything. I guarantee if you went over your 20+ year old wiring, cleaned/fixed/replaced any problems (worn/corroded connectors, fusible links, clean grounds etc), you will have minimal problems with the OEM ignition.Gotcha....I think your right. I don't see it really being worth putting it in. The chrysler setup works fine.

[turbovanman²]

I have had V8s too and could tell. Very easy actually.

We are mechanics, I can hear a missing engine a mile away. I've had many customers bring in cars, even 4 bangers saying something doesn't feel right, I can hear them pull in and know instantly its missing, yet they have no clue.


I have owned so many GMs with HEI and they are not as breakdown prone as people say. Usually those that have problems don't use the grease that should be under the module. I see people put all other greases and pastes other than the right stuff and complain they are crap. I have never had a module die on me and I beat the crap out of every car I have owned. The issue is that there were so many HEI modules out there. Kind of like the ford modules that die. They don't go out near as often as you hear about, but there are a gazillion of them out there.
Then you add in the cheap aftermarket ones for both the GMs and Fords and it sounds much worse than it is. Very similar to the crappy aftermarket HEPs.

GM's HEI is damn near bulletproof except the chinese crap modules, I learned the hard way years ago after putting the chinese one's in a customers car, after being towed back for then failing literally within weeks, I only put OE in. Yes, they cost more but they work, actually MSD is ok too. Delphi's are hit and miss, did 2 ignition modules on a 3.4 code X in a row, one failed in a week, the other wouldn't even start the car, had to buy a chinese one as the dealer's was stupid money and the customer didn't want to spend that much.

[Spraynlog]

Thanks for the input guys. It sounds like I need to get the ACDelco unit for best service. I see them on Rock Auto for $33. I'm pleased with the HEI setup, it runs better than the Orange box Mopar unit, and I'll take the mileage improvement too, based on driving 10K a year it will save me over $300 a year in gas....well worth the investment of $50.

[zin]

....based on driving 10K a year it will save me over $300 a year in gas....well worth the investment of $50.

A "no-brainier" if I ever heard one! Best of Luck!

Mike

[Force Fed Mopar]

Thanks for the input guys. It sounds like I need to get the ACDelco unit for best service. I see them on Rock Auto for $33. I'm pleased with the HEI setup, it runs better than the Orange box Mopar unit, and I'll take the mileage improvement too, based on driving 10K a year it will save me over $300 a year in gas....well worth the investment of $50.

I doubt that came from the HEI, but whatever works :)