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View Full Version : Exhaust header with stock location turbo.



tryingbe
01-20-2013, 10:39 PM
Only requirement for this header build was the turbo must be at stock location as I did not want to redesign everything as the turbo was pack real tight with the stock exhaust manifold that was drilled for T3 flange. it came out perfect.


http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/header.jpg

cordes
01-20-2013, 10:43 PM
Perfect as in meeting the goal over all or exactly, perfectly where the stock turbo sits? Looks like it's pretty darn close for the latter. I bet you'll see some gains out of that if I had to guess. What material did you use?

turbovanmanČ
01-20-2013, 11:00 PM
Honestly, doesn't look very efficient, but kudo's for trying.

cordes
01-20-2013, 11:23 PM
Honestly, doesn't look very efficient, but kudo's for trying.

How so? I think the way #1 and #2 come together look much better than a stock piece. They actually have a bit of a turn to them.

GLHNSLHT2
01-20-2013, 11:46 PM
not sure why you didn't just do like the JRB header and run #1 to the other side instead of joining it with #2. But hey gotta start somewhere. How about using the nippondenso starter? would that give you more room?

turbovanmanČ
01-21-2013, 12:53 AM
How so? I think the way #1 and #2 come together look much better than a stock piece. They actually have a bit of a turn to them.

1 and 2 look good but 3 and 4 seem like they smush together and kinda hit a wall where they exit at 2. Its looks better than stock but by how much?

Maybe someone else who builds headers can chime in? I might be way off, lol.


Oops, my bad, got the numbers mixed up, not 3+4, but 1+2, lol.

wheming
01-21-2013, 09:05 AM
not sure why you didn't just do like the JRB header and run #1 to the other side instead of joining it with #2. But hey gotta start somewhere. How about using the nippondenso starter? would that give you more room?

Not only more room but that solenoid in your pic is going to fry with that exhaust heat.
Is it the Nippo that puts the solenoid on the bottom?

RoadWarrior222
01-21-2013, 02:56 PM
If you want brutal honesty... if I went to a swap meet, needing an exhaust manifold, and saw that laying on a table side by side with a stocker for $20 ... I'd take the stocker. It's not that it looks THAT bad, it's just weighing the "potential decrease in reliability" vs expected performance gain in my head by gut and eyeball, I'd take reliability and the stocker.

However, even if you only get "just as good" as the stocker, that's pretty decent for a home shop, and from a personal point of view, you should be proud of it, and use any lessons learned to develop your subsequent efforts. :thumb: .... in particular, your welding is way better than mine :D

thelostartof
01-21-2013, 05:55 PM
1 and 2 look good but 3 and 4 seem like they smush together and kinda hit a wall where they exit at 2. Its looks better than stock but by how much?

Maybe someone else who builds headers can chime in? I might be way off, lol.

Smush together? looks more like #4 comes into the back side of 3 , 3 looks like it comes down and semi finishes the turn. How much better than stock? being that stock #3 gets shot against a wall and then shoots exhaust gas towards #2 and #4 I would think that some bends that direct the flow must be worlds better. Nevermind the pressure wave from #4 might help pull the gas from #3 along the same path a bit. From there it looks like the #3+4 combo has another bend that turns it into the collector. #2 looks like it dumps into the top of this 3+4 combo which while not ideal is again better than the OEM design that shoots #2 into a cavity for the exhaust gas to stall in, but OEM relies on the pressure waves from the other runners to help pull the exhaust gas out kind of like a log.


If you want brutal honesty... if I went to a swap meet, needing an exhaust manifold, and saw that laying on a table side by side with a stocker for $20 ... I'd take the stocker. It's not that it looks THAT bad, it's just weighing the "potential decrease in reliability" vs expected performance gain in my head by gut and eyeball, I'd take reliability and the stocker.

However, even if you only get "just as good" as the stocker, that's pretty decent for a home shop, and from a personal point of view, you should be proud of it, and use any lessons learned to develop your subsequent efforts. :thumb: .... in particular, your welding is way better than mine :D


You would take a stock manifold that is made from a bad casting(the dodge castings is by far one of the worst I have seen in terms of quality of material) and prone to cracking and warping? I can not tell you how many stock manifolds I have seen ported or stock with cracks all in the cast iron along with warped head flanges where they do not sit flat or bolt holes do not even line up. I have been working on turbo dodges for some 9+ years and I seem to remember people thinking that even a log is better than stock. I mean sure I have seen log manifolds make 500whp but it does not mean it is the most ideal way to do it, a log is the lazy mans manifold as pretty much anything is better than a log, being that stock is as bad if not worse than a log I would have to say this should be a huge improvement over stock.

The fact that this manifold fits the turbo in the 100% stock location is the big kicker, I have seen tons of Manifolds for sale here that are built off the car and do not take into account all of the other changes required to make it fit. I wish someone made 100% stock replacement manifolds for all turbo cars as that would save so much effort of new downpipe along with oil and water lines along with intercooler lines. Oh and nevermind the non crossflow head design that might require a custom intake setup or possibly having to hammer out firewall to make it fit.

While the manifold might not be super bling with nice TIG welds everywhere if it fits and flows better than stock I do not really see the big issue, props for going out there and doing something yourself vs sticking to the norm.

Rrider
01-21-2013, 06:01 PM
It was kind of hard to tell from the pic.. but it looked like it could flow good.

turbovanmanČ
01-21-2013, 06:02 PM
Smush together? looks more like #4 comes into the back side of 3 , 3 looks like it comes down and semi finishes the turn. How much better than stock? being that stock #3 gets shot against a wall and then shoots exhaust gas towards #2 and #4 I would think that some bends that direct the flow must be worlds better. Nevermind the pressure wave from #4 might help pull the gas from #3 along the same path a bit. From there it looks like the #3+4 combo has another bend that turns it into the collector. #2 looks like it dumps into the top of this 3+4 combo which while not ideal is again better than the OEM design that shoots #2 into a cavity for the exhaust gas to stall in, but OEM relies on the pressure waves from the other runners to help pull the exhaust gas out kind of like a log.




You would take a stock manifold that is made from a bad casting(the dodge castings is by far one of the worst I have seen in terms of quality of material) and prone to cracking and warping? I can not tell you how many stock manifolds I have seen ported or stock with cracks all in the cast iron along with warped head flanges where they do not sit flat or bolt holes do not even line up. I have been working on turbo dodges for some 9+ years and I seem to remember people thinking that even a log is better than stock. I mean sure I have seen log manifolds make 500whp but it does not mean it is the most ideal way to do it, a log is the lazy mans manifold as pretty much anything is better than a log, being that stock is as bad if not worse than a log I would have to say this should be a huge improvement over stock.

The fact that this manifold fits the turbo in the 100% stock location is the big kicker, I have seen tons of Manifolds for sale here that are built off the car and do not take into account all of the other changes required to make it fit. I wish someone made 100% stock replacement manifolds for all turbo cars as that would save so much effort of new downpipe along with oil and water lines along with intercooler lines. Oh and nevermind the non crossflow head design that might require a custom intake setup or possibly having to hammer out firewall to make it fit.

While the manifold might not be super bling with nice TIG welds everywhere if it fits and flows better than stock I do not really see the big issue, props for going out there and doing something yourself vs sticking to the norm.

I guess you built it, :p

As for the stocker-cracked and warp prone, never seen it yet.

As for the design, like I said, it seems like 3+4 could be done better but its definetly better than stock and I would run that over stock any day. :thumb:


A true bolt on you say, well why didn't you say so-


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/8valve%20log%20header/PB240086.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/8valve%20log%20header/PB240087.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/8valve%20log%20header/PB240088.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/8valve%20log%20header/PB240089.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/8valve%20log%20header/PB240090.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/8valve%20log%20header/PB240091.jpg

thelostartof
01-21-2013, 06:10 PM
Perfect as in meeting the goal over all or exactly, perfectly where the stock turbo sits? Looks like it's pretty darn close for the latter. I bet you'll see some gains out of that if I had to guess. What material did you use?

Looks like Sch10 Stainless and then MIG weld'd.


How so? I think the way #1 and #2 come together look much better than a stock piece. They actually have a bit of a turn to them.

+1, worlds better than stock IMO


not sure why you didn't just do like the JRB header and run #1 to the other side instead of joining it with #2. But hey gotta start somewhere. How about using the nippondenso starter? would that give you more room?




The JRB looks like it is made out of thin wall, do you have any details about it? If it is thin wall I would not trust thin wall collector to hold up as I have seen a lot of thin wall manifolds fail at the collector from the heat. Typically if you build a normal style turbo manifold for most cars out of thin wall for the runners and use something good like sch10/40 for the collector they will last while the pure thin wall headers will fail as soon as you start throwing any timing at them. @ least that is what I have seen with a lot of turbo v8 setups where people DIY headers/manifolds.


JRB looks semi the same with #1 going into the back of the engine side and then @#2 on the front of the engine with #3+4 semi becoming one pipe to make it a 3 pipe collector. The JRB does look like it should flow a bit better but being thin wall collector I would just not trust it if you were doing much tuning over stock.

---------- Post added at 03:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------

That log looks good but you seem to be missing that logs flow like crap, as the stock is nothing more than a cast log. I have seen some cars pick up 30+whp when going from Log to something like a ram horn or even unequal setup over a log. Log's should only be used if nothing else can be done.

You have never seen a cracked or warped stock manifold? really? I find that hard to believe as I think the last 5-6 manifolds I have pulled off various dodges were all failed in one way or another.

turbovanmanČ
01-21-2013, 06:40 PM
That log looks good but you seem to be missing that logs flow like crap, as the stock is nothing more than a cast log. I have seen some cars pick up 30+whp when going from Log to something like a ram horn or even unequal setup over a log. Log's should only be used if nothing else can be done.

You have never seen a cracked or warped stock manifold? really? I find that hard to believe as I think the last 5-6 manifolds I have pulled off various dodges were all failed in one way or another.

Agreed to a point, they flow better than stock but worse than a true tubular header but for the price and no modding required to fit it, its worth it.

Yep, never seen a cracked or warped manifold yet, ok, one warped flange due to the guy driving it with broken studs otherwise nothing.

thelostartof
01-21-2013, 06:49 PM
I shall agree with you on those points,

I am tho in shock that you have never seen more failed stock manifolds besides that one, Most I have seen fail were semi stock sized turbos so it could of all of that extra heat from running higher boost on the stock .48 housing was just to much stress for them.

GLHNSLHT2
01-21-2013, 08:51 PM
The JRB looks like it is made out of thin wall, do you have any details about it? If it is thin wall I would not trust thin wall collector to hold up as I have seen a lot of thin wall manifolds fail at the collector from the heat. Typically if you build a normal style turbo manifold for most cars out of thin wall for the runners and use something good like sch10/40 for the collector they will last while the pure thin wall headers will fail as soon as you start throwing any timing at them. @ least that is what I have seen with a lot of turbo v8 setups where people DIY headers/manifolds.
JRB looks semi the same with #1 going into the back of the engine side and then @#2 on the front of the engine with #3+4 semi becoming one pipe to make it a 3 pipe collector. The JRB does look like it should flow a bit better but being thin wall collector I would just not trust it if you were doing much tuning over stock.[COLOR="Silver"]

Do I have details about it? I should, it's sitting on the rack in my shop.

RoadWarrior222
01-21-2013, 09:05 PM
Oops, next time I'll try the compliment sandwich.

turbovanmanČ
01-21-2013, 09:19 PM
I shall agree with you on those points,

I am tho in shock that you have never seen more failed stock manifolds besides that one, Most I have seen fail were semi stock sized turbos so it could of all of that extra heat from running higher boost on the stock .48 housing was just to much stress for them.

I am in Canada, so things are different here, eh, lol.

shadow88
01-21-2013, 09:23 PM
Oh, dammit you guys, I wanted to see it.

turbovanmanČ
01-21-2013, 09:35 PM
Oh, dammit you guys, I wanted to see it.

What, lol. :confused:

cordes
01-21-2013, 10:12 PM
I liked it! Put it down that I'm not a nay sayer.

turbovanmanČ
01-22-2013, 03:55 AM
Seriously Harry, what are you, 5? Grown men don't act like this and get all upset when people critque fabbed items.

wheming
01-22-2013, 08:26 AM
In all honesty, this community can be sort of harsh sometimes.
I was interested in seeing more pics and hearing a bit more discussion. It would certainly help the OP with any future design revisions.
There aren't too many options out there, and they are at different price points.

wallace
01-22-2013, 02:53 PM
Props for taking a stab at it I would be interested to know how it works out and if you feel it made a difference in the performance. In the end the only person that needs to be satisfied is you.

Rrider
01-22-2013, 03:40 PM
Better looking than I would have built. And I wouldn't have given a rats azz what anybody thought if I built myself one!

RoadWarrior222
01-22-2013, 03:56 PM
I was trying to say that, but just saying that to an external observer, who doesn't have his own work to trust, that it doesn't scream FLOW!!!!!1111 just by looking at it, which I was contrasting to the position of being "the most perfect manifold evarrrrr!!1111", rather than the position of "just what I wanted" I guess.

shayne
01-24-2013, 10:53 PM
not cool pissing on someones hard work. i find it personally difficult to deal with wondering how people will like what i build them, or how they will percieve what ive built for myself too. but the point is to build what you want to and enjoy it. plus packaging a turbo into the stock spot so as to not reinvent the wheel is difficult to say the least. i wonder how many guys have tried and can appreciate how hard it is to do so.

turbovanmanČ
01-25-2013, 03:14 PM
not cool pissing on someones hard work. i find it personally difficult to deal with wondering how people will like what i build them, or how they will percieve what ive built for myself too. but the point is to build what you want to and enjoy it. plus packaging a turbo into the stock spot so as to not reinvent the wheel is difficult to say the least. i wonder how many guys have tried and can appreciate how hard it is to do so.

First things first, he drives a turbo dodge, you should have a thick skin already, 2, no one put him down, we merely commented on his header, so if you don't want anyone to critique it, don't post it up for everyone to see, and 3, no one said it was crap design, so go back to points 1 and 2, 4, everyone who posts up fabbed items on here gets critiqued, its par for he course.

shayne
01-25-2013, 03:39 PM
well :p

cordes
01-25-2013, 07:56 PM
First things first, he drives a turbo dodge, you should have a thick skin already, 2, no one put him down, we merely commented on his header, so if you don't want anyone to critique it, don't post it up for everyone to see, and 3, no one said it was crap design, so go back to points 1 and 2, 4, everyone who posts up fabbed items on here gets critiqued, its par for he course.

I think the criticism could have been worded in a more polite way and I also disagree with several who thought that it wouldn't be an improvement.

turbovanmanČ
01-25-2013, 09:31 PM
I think the criticism could have been worded in a more polite way and I also disagree with several who thought that it wouldn't be an improvement.

Polite way? Hmmm, this is turbo-mopar if you don't remember, :D

cordes
01-25-2013, 11:15 PM
Polite way? Hmmm, this is turbo-mopar if you don't remember, :D

I know, it's generally a very polite and helpful board.

RoadWarrior222
01-26-2013, 12:05 AM
I guess my mindset at the time of initial response was a faint worry he was so excited he was gonna sink his life savings into getting a thousand copies made... and the market is harsh. So was trying to clumsily convey the opinion that there was room for improvement for it to be "commercial" as it were.

Tbird232ci
01-30-2013, 05:29 PM
Polite way? Hmmm, this is turbo-mopar if you don't remember, :D

I think you're confusing this with BM's kitchen ;)

acannell
04-17-2013, 01:28 AM
Only requirement for this header build was the turbo must be at stock location as I did not want to redesign everything as the turbo was pack real tight with the stock exhaust manifold that was drilled for T3 flange. it came out perfect.


http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/omniproject/header.jpg

Where is the pic? I spent months making one to fit in the stock location and I'd really like to see how someone else dealt with all the issues..

turbovanmanČ
04-17-2013, 04:55 PM
See post 21. We have pics, see my sig. Not sure what type you built though.

acannell
04-17-2013, 07:17 PM
See post 21. We have pics, see my sig. Not sure what type you built though.

thats a nice one, looks way better than stock. but is that the one tryingbe made? the one i made is pretty different, i tried to make equal length and it has to wrap around lots of parts to keep things in the stock location. got 5000 miles on it and it seems okay. using kaowool and foil for heat shields around starter and power steering pump. no cracks at 3000 mile inspection.

kinda useless with stock head and manifolds...someday..

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/photobucket-10906-1338057377929.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/acannell/photobucket-24207-1339911902177.jpg

turbovanmanČ
04-17-2013, 07:30 PM
Something similiar to yours. Pretty sure a tube type was tested on a stock head engine and picked up some decent power.

Yours looks great, :thumb:

tryingbe
04-18-2013, 09:37 AM
LOL, somehow turbovanmanČ became my spokesman?

No, my header is nothing likes yours, acannell. I have no plan to display the picture in public again. It's a simple header, it doesn't have as much band as your #2 pipe alone, don't think too hard. I get boost now by 1300RPM with my 2.5L, my friend that drove it says it feels like a big displacement engine instead of a boost engine.

Considering I was getting boost at 1600RPM with my ported stocker, I'd say it's an improvement. Boost any sooner and it'll spool at idle. :D

acannell
04-18-2013, 11:41 AM
LOL, somehow turbovanmanČ became my spokesman?

No, my header is nothing likes yours, acannell. I have no plan to display the picture in public again. It's a simple header, it doesn't have as much band as your #2 pipe alone, don't think too hard. I get boost now by 1300RPM with my 2.5L, my friend that drove it says it feels like a big displacement engine instead of a boost engine.

Considering I was getting boost at 1600RPM with my ported stocker, I'd say it's an improvement. Boost any sooner and it'll spool at idle. :D

that sounds great..i should see where mine starts boost at..im fairly certain its way beyond 1600 rpm, probably 3500..im sure alot of heat is lost in all the tubing too..im keeping my fingers crossed that itll make up for at very high flow rates

cordes
04-19-2013, 04:03 PM
LOL, somehow turbovanmanČ became my spokesman?

No, my header is nothing likes yours, acannell. I have no plan to display the picture in public again. It's a simple header, it doesn't have as much band as your #2 pipe alone, don't think too hard. I get boost now by 1300RPM with my 2.5L, my friend that drove it says it feels like a big displacement engine instead of a boost engine.

Considering I was getting boost at 1600RPM with my ported stocker, I'd say it's an improvement. Boost any sooner and it'll spool at idle. :D

Glad to hear that it made an improvement. I thought it would.

Dez
05-08-2013, 12:01 AM
Looks good, bro! Keep it up & glad it worked out for you!