Motor is done. Car won't start.

[LarryMayes]

Hey all,

Got a 1998 Neon R/T coupe. Got the motor rebuilt with plenty of go-fast parts. Trouble is that it won't start. Got fuel pressure, spark, and compression. I'm really stumped on why it won't start. The computer isn't giving me any codes either. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Larry Mayes

[Khajjathefang]

Check timing?

[RoadWarrior222]

My crystal ball says cam sensor.

[turbovanman²]

Who rebuilt it? Who put the timing belt on? I would triple check cam timing, as many have got it wrong. Try not to keep cranking it over otherwise you'll glaze the rings.

[85boostbox]

I doubt timing is off. If it is off it is maybe a tooth or so. DOHC is a interference engine. If it was way off he would crank and it would be done. My bet is cam or crank sensor as well.

[85boostbox]

Let me add this. When cranking over to you get a tach bounce?

[LarryMayes]

Tach doesn't move at all. I had the bottom end assembled by Best Machine in Michigan. I assembled the top end by myself by following all the books.

---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

All the internals on the motor are brand new. As is all the sensors. The magnet for the cam sensor is installed right too. I double checked it. And the cam pos. sensor plug and coil plug are not swapped. Checked that too.

[85boostbox]

Crank sensor?

[RoadWarrior222]

Nintendo trick time... pull the ECU connector, blow on it, plug it back in...

[LarryMayes]

I have been told by a few people that it might be a grounding issue (or lack of ground). This weekend I'm gonna get out my meter and check for continuity between the body / frame and engine block / head. I also replaced the crank sensor, again, and that didn't help.

[nmw2006]

Yep, I'm going to go with a ground problem. I've had several new builds do this and it always turns out to be a bad ground. Take them all off, clean the hell out of them, put it back together. Also, make sure you check your clutch switch/neutral safety switch and wiring especially if you have messed with or changed any wiring. Good Luck :thumb:

[speedfreek500]

I would also check for bent pins in all the connections, I have seen bent pins on the stock style coil from somebody in a hurry replacing it.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Cam sensor and coil pack plugs switched? Seriously, it is possible, seen (and fixed) it before.

[LarryMayes]

Did some pokin' around on the motor over the weekend. Realized that the valve cover was not grounded. Noise supressor and coil are connected to it. Don't know if the missing ground is significant or not but gonna ground it anyway. Have a 4 gauge wire from the battery terminal to the frame. Also gonna run a 4 gauge from the trans. to the frame and the block to the frame. Hopefully that will solve this problem.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[ShelGame]

Original 2.0L or 2.4 swap?

How's Best Machine doing? They built the bottom end in my Daytona, 6 years ago - still going strong...

[LarryMayes]

Valve cover grounded to cyl. head with a ground braid. Negative side of battery is grounded to frame (4 gauge) and block (8 gauge) close to starter. Trans. is grounded to frame (4 gauge) as is back of block on pass. side to frame (4 gauge). Let me know if I missed anything.

Thanks,
Larry Mayes

[Big_P]

Are there any grounds on the engine portion of the wiring harness? Double check those. I don't recall Neons specifically as I've never had one apart, but I know our 2.2/2.5 motors have a ground on the injector harness and if it's not bolted to the intake manifold, the car will not run.

Also, do you have a scan tool with datastream feature? You can check for a crank sensor signal when cranking the engine.

[A.J.]

The OP never said whether or not he had injector pulse. He said he had fuel pressure, spark, and compression but if the injectors aren't opening than fuel pressure means nothing.

[LarryMayes]

How do I check for injector pulse? Also, in regards to my previous post, is the motor grounded enough now?

[A.J.]

You check injector pulse with a noid light. You could use a lest light in a pinch but you stand the chance of burning out the injector driver in the computer if out don't use a light with the correct resistance. You check the injector plug for 1) Constant 12 volts positive and 2) The ground side "pulse" from the computer that turns the injector on and off.

[turbo84voyager]

Are the plugs getting wet? If you cant get a noid light what I have done in situations where I did not have one on me, check for 12 volts and if you have it, spray a little carb cleaner in the throttle body and see if it tries to start. If it tries to start, chances are it does not have pulse. The tach not moving makes me think cam sensor. As stated earlier, make sure you did not bend any pins. Even with the weather tight connectors many people think you cant bend a connector. You can. I bent the crank sensor pin on a Subaru once after doing head gaskets. Plug snapped right in. I removed it, bent it back and all was good.

[LarryMayes]

I removed the spark plugs, one at a time, and could smell fuel in the cylinders. I'm assuming the injectors are pulsing, but I guess I could be wrong. Going to re-install the oil pan this weekend. Removed it because I had a minor anti-freeze leak that ate the paint on it. If everything goes as planned I might try to start it on Sunday.

[LarryMayes]

Got everything grounded. No start.:( Pulled all four plugs, got fuel in all cylinders. Gonna test for compression and swap out the ECU for the stock one. The OBD scanner comes up with no codes. Tried the forward-backward thing with the key and it comes up with one code. Don't remember exactly how it was worded but something like "too many key cycles with no start". This is really throwin' my mind for a loop and discouraging at the same time. A friend of mine told me I should take the motor out & put in a Hemi. That's been sounding better lately. LOL

Later,
Larry Mayes

[Force Fed Mopar]

Did you check if the coil pack and cam sensor plugs got switched?

[LarryMayes]

Yup, checked every plug connected to every sensor, three times. I have all the wiring diagrams and I checked the connectors against the diagrams. Everything is connected the way it should be and all the sensors are new.

Thanks,
Larry Mayes

[Force Fed Mopar]

Bad computer? Are you getting power to the computer?

[LarryMayes]

I have the Mopar Performance computer in the car. When I turn the key on I get the same hi-pitch noise out of it that I got when I was driving the car ten years ago. I sold my stock computer a few years ago (oops.) so I'm gonna get one from my local Mopar only scrap yard.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[glhs571]

I know you said all your sensors were brand new but it may be worth a shot swapping out the Cam position sensor for the hell of it. I know they are faulty pretty frequently. Heck my moms PT "GT" has went through three CPS's in 6 years...obviously it's a different setup than yours, but you get the picture.

[LarryMayes]

Need to know if an automatic trans. computer will work in a manual trans. car? I know there is one wire used in an auto trans. computer for the park/neutral switch. Since I can't find a cheap MTX computer thought I'd try an ATX.

Thanks in advance,
Larry Mayes

[LarryMayes]

Got an update:

1) The Tachometer bounces between 500 & 2000 rpm's when I'm trying to start it.
2) I took a look in the throttle body and there is a puddle of fuel in the bottom of the intake.
3) Could it possibly be bad fuel?

Later,
Larry Mayes

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 AM ----------

Got an update:

1) Tach bounces between 500 & 2000 rpm when trying to start.
2) Took a look down the throttle body. There is a puddle of fuel in the bottom of the intake.
3) Could it possibly be bad fuel?

Later,
Larry Mayes

[ShelGame]

Need to know if an automatic trans. computer will work in a manual trans. car? I know there is one wire used in an auto trans. computer for the park/neutral switch. Since I can't find a cheap MTX computer thought I'd try an ATX.

Thanks in advance,
Larry Mayes

The ATX computer should run an MTX car - however, if the P/N switch wire isn't grounded, it may not start at all. I know on the older TM's, there is no issue simply swapping in a AT computer, but check your wiring.

---------- Post added at 09:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------


Got an update:

1) Tach bounces between 500 & 2000 rpm when trying to start.
2) Took a look down the throttle body. There is a puddle of fuel in the bottom of the intake.
3) Could it possibly be bad fuel?

Later,
Larry Mayes

Could be bad fuel, but there shouldn't be a puddle of fuel in the intake. Have you checked the TPS voltage?

[LarryMayes]

Haven't checked the TPS voltage yet. Is it possible to install it upside-down? I have a Venom Perf. fuel rail, Indy intake, Modern Perf. throttle body and stock injectors. There are two sensors on the throttle body, I'm wondering if I have the plugs flip-flopped between the two. Also not sure why there's a puddle of fuel in the bottom of the intake.

Later,
Larry

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------

By the way, I don't have the heater, A/C, or air bags hooked up either. Don't think this will make a difference but figured I'd throw it out there anyway.

LM

[A.J.]

Got an update:

1) The Tachometer bounces between 500 & 2000 rpm's when I'm trying to start it.
2) I took a look in the throttle body and there is a puddle of fuel in the bottom of the intake.
3) Could it possibly be bad fuel?

Later,
Larry Mayes[COLOR="Silver"]


Does this this have a socketed computer and a custom cal? It sounds like you have either a bad computer, the wrong cal loaded, or the chip is in backwards. Those symptoms happened to me the other day when I plugged my Ostrich into my van and I had a different tune on it and tried to start it. Tach bounced all over the place and once I had the correct cal in it I had to hold the pedal to the floor to start it because it was flooded.

[LarryMayes]

I have the Mopar Performance computer in it now with no other add-ons. Gonna try to find a stock computer (sold the original one three years ago) and see if that helps.

LM

[LarryMayes]

Currently waiting on the stock computer that I sold 3 years ago to come back. I got in touch with the guy who bought it and he still has it (yipee)! When it comes back gonna throw it in and give yet another try. Really hope it starts this time, getting tired of pushing the car around.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[phantomrt]

Go back to basics. An engine needs three things to run.

1.) Compression. Easy to check. May as well do all four cylinders. Make sure it has it. Even a new, not-broken-in engine should make 140+ PSI. If they're all around, say, 100 PSI, then the cam timing is likely off, which will cause a no-run condition.

2.) Fuel. You say the spark plugs smell like gas, so that would suggest that is okay. With all this cranking, if it is getting fuel, the plugs could foul themselves out and cause you to chase your tail. It shouldn't hurt to disconnect the injectors and try starting fluid just to see if it'll even pop, after cleaning the plugs of wet fuel if necessary.

3.) Spark at the right time. I do not believe that I saw any test where the spark plug was removed, grounded, and then cranked to see if there is a bright, brilliant spark. I may have just missed the post though. To check to see if it is firing at the right time, bust out the old school timing light. You may have to make your own timing marks on the timing belt cover and crank pulley, but it is do-able. Make sure the spark plug wires aren't switched around.

Do these cars not have a magnet on the camshaft that triggers the cam position sensor? Any chance that it has a crack in it and is broken? Or missing?

Check all these, and then get back to us.

[Force Fed Mopar]

They do have a magnet, and I think they can go bad. I have seen computers go bad too.

[LarryMayes]

Does anyone think the motor is flooding itself out? And if so, what could be the cause of it? To check for spark I clamped a timing light to all four plug wires (one at a time) and the light flashed when I cranked the motor. This is really bumming me out. $4000 into a motor and all it is right now is a paper weight.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[LarryMayes]

Well, my Chrysler connection is coming over to my house 7/6/13. He's gonna bring along a "DRB" and all the necessary tools/testers to hopefully figure out why my little roller skate won't run. If we can get it running we're gonna bleed the brakes too and I might actually be able to drive it. Yahoo!! Last time I drove it was around ten years ago so I figure it's about time. I'll send a new post Monday 7/8/13 with an update. Thanks again to everyone who offered tips & suggestions.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[LarryMayes]

Well, here it is in a nutshell. Timing on the intake cam was 180 deg. off. We got all that set right, checked compression, and found zero compression on cylinder one. Two, three & four had 160 lbs. Now I have to take the head off and see if the intake valves and/or piston got damaged at all. THis is not what I wanted to see. (Completely bummed). Just thought I'd sent out an update to the continuing no-start saga.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[Force Fed Mopar]

Damn that sucks. But, at least you know what it is.

[LarryMayes]

F.Y.I. I used AEM adjustable cam gears. And unlike the stock gears these can be installed with the camshaft indexing pin facing up or down. OOPS! I called my engine connection he said he can take care of installing new valves. Now I just have to remember who I got the valves from and if they were oversize or not.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[turbovanman²]

I hate being right, lol. :p

Unfortunatley though, you've probably glazed the rings and it will have a lot of blowby at this point in time. I had the same issue years ago but doing a dizzy conversion, new rings, wouldn't fire, finally got it running but killed the rings, had terrible blowby, :(

[LarryMayes]

Took the head off on Saturday. Two valves are bent. Fortunately nothing wrong with the piston. Gonna take the head to my engine guy to get it taken care of. While I'm at it my two piece Indy intake is gonna get welded too. This fix shouldn't be that big of a deal, I hope. Once again thanks to all for your suggestions and comments.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[turbovanman²]

I would re-ring it while the head is off.

[LarryMayes]

Does anyone else think a ring replacement is a good idea?

Larry

[A.J.]

How many miles on the rings? If you've got the time, money, and tools, you're right there so might as well.

[LarryMayes]

No miles at all. Brand new build on the motor. All new parts.

LM

[turbovanman²]

That's not the issue as I explained earlier, all that cranking, fuel etc will glaze the bores and the rings will never seat. Been there, done that, got the badge and I've seen it too many times to count. You have the head off, changing the rings is a few more hours at best, quick hone, new rings, done.

[A.J.]

That's not the issue as I explained earlier, all that cranking, fuel etc will glaze the bores and the rings will never seat. Been there, done that, got the badge and I've seen it too many times to count. You have the head off, changing the rings is a few more hours at best, quick hone, new rings, done.

Ya I forgot about that. I'd do a quick hone and new rings. Rings and an oil pan gasket are cheap compared to pulling the head a second time.

[LarryMayes]

Got my Indy intake welded now it's out getting ceramic-coated. Gonna take the head to my engine guy and he'll go through it and tell me what I need. The valves are Indy stainless and still available (that's a relief). Also taking A.J.'s advice and re-ringin' it too. So for right now just touching up stuff and detailing parts that I didn't do before (got lazy).

Later
Larry Mayes

[A.J.]

Also taking A.J.'s advice and re-ringin' it too.


Ha ha, I got credit for Simon's recommendation. In yo' face.

[shackwrrr]

I don't see it hurting the rings, the cylinders will be glazed but the rings will be good, just run a hone through them and you'll be good.

[LarryMayes]

Glazed donuts, good. Glazed cylinders, not good. Got it.

LM

[LarryMayes]

Well, the head went bye-bye on 8/13/13 should be getting it back soon. Picking up the intake on Friday. Sixty dollars to get it welded and eighty to get it ceramic-coated. Not bad I guess. Hopefully it'll be runnin' by the end of the month. It's about time.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[LarryMayes]

Finally got my new valves from Indy today. Only had to buy two. Saved me a few dollars. Taking them out to my engine guy this afternoon, hope to have the head back next week sometime. That's it for now.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[turbovanman²]

Got my Indy intake welded now it's out getting ceramic-coated. Gonna take the head to my engine guy and he'll go through it and tell me what I need. The valves are Indy stainless and still available (that's a relief). Also taking A.J.'s advice and re-ringin' it too. So for right now just touching up stuff and detailing parts that I didn't do before (got lazy).

Later
Larry Mayes

Wow, :(


Ha ha, I got credit for Simon's recommendation. In yo' face.

LOL.


I don't see it hurting the rings, the cylinders will be glazed but the rings will be good, just run a hone through them and you'll be good.

See above on the explanation, look it up or ask a decent machine shop.

[LarryMayes]

Had a friend of mine come to the house and re-ring it while I was at work. Head is done and back on the motor. Same friend is gonna come over and help me get the timing set right. Indy intake is now one piece (welded) and ceramic-coated. Motor actually looks better than it did before.

Later,
Larry Mayes

[LarryMayes]

It runs. FINALLY! Got two codes:

P1294 Target idle not reached
P0172 Right rear fuel system rich

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Larry Mayes