Maserati block..Whats different?

[Warren Stramer]

What all is the differance between a regular production common block and a Masi block? And has anyone here sonic tested the cyl. wall thickness on a Masi block? What did you find?
And finally, Were they as heavily cast as a TIII block?

[2.216VTurbo]

See here's the thing Warren, your thread says Maserati in the title so I feel kinda obligated to respond with something useful;) but problem is, the only 'built' Masi motor I have I started with just the head and intake manifold and built the rest of the motor around it. The block started life in an 89 TII LeBaron GTC. So I've never had a true Masi block sonic checked. As far as 'Visual' differences, just some machining on the front bosses for Det sensor and and IN manifold brace. The pre June build dates in the 89 16V Masi's aren't even common block motors. I'll follow this thread and see if I can learn something about them too:D

[RoadWarrior222]

LOL whut? Alan doesn't know????? The Mayans were right, the world ended. :D

[glhs727]

Maybe Rick D can chime in....

[Warren Stramer]

See here's the thing Warren, your thread says Maserati in the title so I feel kinda obligated to respond with something useful;) but problem is, the only 'built' Masi motor I have I started with just the head and intake manifold and built the rest of the motor around it. The block started life in an 89 TII LeBaron GTC. So I've never had a true Masi block sonic checked. As far as 'Visual' differences, just some machining on the front bosses for Det sensor and and IN manifold brace. The pre June build dates in the 89 16V Masi's aren't even common block motors. I'll follow this thread and see if I can learn something about them too:D

I expected more out of you Alan:D, but you can't know everything can you........kidding aside, I have most of the parts collected to build my 700HP 8V:nod: ya you read right, I want the foundation to be the strongest, best block I can find so I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about the various castings.
Thanks to Shadow, I have a BUNCH of pre 90's common blocks, and I have done extensive sonic mapping of all the blocks I have here and none of them are as thick in the bores as the engine I had been running all these years which is a 93 block.
I have been making lots of calls. Have to get something soon If I'm going to make SDAC. I dont want to miss the chance to run at Indy.

[turbovanman²]

Have you checked out the TIII blocks? they are supposed to the thickest, hardest, best factory machined blocks around.

[ShelGame]

Have you checked out the TIII blocks? they are supposed to the thickest, hardest, best factory machined blocks around.

By my understanding, the 2.5 tall deck blocks have the thickest cylidner walls and they're basically the same bottom end structure as a common block.

[GLHNSLHT2]

so is a Masi block just a 2.5 dakota block or is the 2.5 dakota block a Masi block. Because as far as I know the machining for the Det sensor and intake brace is the same machining for mounting it in a RWD configuration right?

[BadAssPerformance]

none of them are as thick in the bores as the engine I had been running all these years which is a 93 block.

What did it start life as, T-III? 2.5 T-I? I could see the 16V blocks being designed stronger. I think the "strongest 8V 2.2L engine was supposed to be the 89-90 T-IV block, maybe 5-digits knows more bout that? Which block does Slowe run?


Have to get something soon If I'm going to make SDAC. I dont want to miss the chance to run at Indy.

Is there an issue with the current block? Hope you can make it out Warren! Did you notice the Weekend after SDAC is tentatively (not confirmed) Monster Mopar in Indy too?

[Warren Stramer]

I have a bare T-IV block. It is the thinnest poorest cast block of all my common blocks. You just cannot assume anything I guess.

I do not want to use a "tall deck" block for a couple of reasons.

The block that I built back in 1999, that is currently in the car, and has not been out of the car since I built it (aprox.375 runs) was a 2.5 92-93 tbi block. It had average .220 wall thickness.
I cracked it at a race at BIR last June. Hairline crack #1 cyl. at the top.

I located a new, never run DC block, the owner said he was willing to sell, but he cant/wont give me a price:confused:

Maybe I'm a little fussy,(understatement:p) but when you are going to drop a bunch of money into a max effort deal like this, and before you start shipping blocks across the country, I would like to be pretty darn sure that what i'm starting with is a useable piece.
My idea of a useable core would be not more than .010 overbore, not decked more than .010, crank main housing bores not off on any journal (alignment) by more than .002, obviously no cracks anywhere, and little to no core shift with cylinder thickness at least .220 thrust and non thrust sides.
If you knock out the expansion plugs and look closely at the mid section of the cyl. walls many blocks have a deep groove where the casting cores meet, some severe.

I have read alot about TIII blocks being the thickest-best, but I cannot find anyone who has personally sonic checked any. I suppose it is logical that they should have been made the strongest, but I wouldnt bet on it.

A TIII is working out GREAT for Brian, I guess that is probably what I should be searchin for.........Any leads?:eyebrows:

---------- Post added at 10:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 PM ----------

And while on the subject, What is the best, cheapest method of shipping a block cross country?

[BadAssPerformance]

I have a bare T-IV block. It is the thinnest poorest cast block of all my common blocks. You just cannot assume anything I guess.

Nope, guess you can't. Funny thing, I had a New 1996 T-IV short block from Mopar and cracked a stock piston :( and being under 12/12 I simple got another one... the 1997 T-IV replacement was different than the '96 one... not drilled for balance shaft oiling, and no forged crank :( Same part number too.



The block that I built back in 1999, that is currently in the car, and has not been out of the car since I built it (aprox.375 runs) was a 2.5 92-93 tbi block. It had average .220 wall thickness.

Interesting, wonder if being '92-'93 it was thicker because thsoe were the years the T-III blocks were made and they did some commonization? ..or just luck?


I cracked it at a race at BIR last June. Hairline crack #1 cyl. at the top.

Ouch :( Curious, was it filled?


A TIII is working out GREAT for Brian, I guess that is probably what I should be searchin for.........Any leads?:eyebrows:

Possibly


And while on the subject, What is the best, cheapest method of shipping a block cross country?

Used to be Greyhound, put it in a plastic tote and a ride for ~$75 I'd wrap it nicely tho, make sure it doesn't bounce

[RoadWarrior222]

BTW I thought we'd just figured out something in the last year (Or could be a bit longer) about "the weakest link" in blocks being a casting seam that you can see with the freeze plugs pulled. The more of a divot it is, seeming to correlate to a higher chance of block failure, and I guess ones that are marginal right along the block could cause distortion. I'm not entirely sure if you can "catch" it reliably by sampling block thickness, meaning it might be thick enough all round but for a about an inch by an eight thin patch on the cylinder wall where the thin spot is.

Anyway, that would seem to indicate that it doesn't really matter what the "general" thickness of a particular type of block is, if that seam might be the weak link in all of them, and durability depend on how thin or thick it is.

[Warren Stramer]

43281
BTW I thought we'd just figured out something in the last year (Or could be a bit longer) about "the weakest link" in blocks being a casting seam that you can see with the freeze plugs pulled. The more of a divot it is, seeming to correlate to a higher chance of block failure, and I guess ones that are marginal right along the block could cause distortion. I'm not entirely sure if you can "catch" it reliably by sampling block thickness, meaning it might be thick enough all round but for a about an inch by an eight thin patch on the cylinder wall where the thin spot is.

Anyway, that would seem to indicate that it doesn't really matter what the "general" thickness of a particular type of block is, if that seam might be the weak link in all of them, and durability depend on how thin or thick it is.

Yes you are correct. I photographed one that was particularly bad and someone posted it on here last year. It was the T-IV block.

You must knock out the expansion plugs to see the core shift and casting seams on the cyls. Ususally the worst one is in the front of cyl. #1, and you can see that through the water pump hole, but you must check them all, front and back.

Also what I have found by sonic checking so many of these blocks is that the thinnest area of the cyls. is the lower third, front, at about 7:30. Most of them loose aprox. -.050 in this area @ cyls #3 &#4.
I have found ALL blocks are thicker in the thrust side (rear)

Also, Every block I have measured/inspected that had not yet been bored has the bore spacing too far apart between Cyl#2 & #3 by about .024 (A good machinist will fix this when they bore the block, but you only get one chance at it).

Blocks that spent their life near Winnepeg Manitoba are all rust pitted in the rear:D:D sorry Rob, I just couldnt resist.

If you look close at the cut-away pics in the Knowlege Center you can see the casting butt-crack in the front of the cyl. near the water pump opening. The engine in that photo is not even that bad, some are much worse. (thanks Rob Lloyd)

If a main brg bore is out of alignment it is usually #4 or #5.

All of the blocks I have inspected could handle maybe 400HP(for a while), so dont throw them away. I'm just posting what I have found to be common to the early Common blocks.

Send me a bunch of T-III and Masi blocks and I will check them too:D
.

[ShelGame]

43281

Yes you are correct. I photographed one that was particularly bad and someone posted it on here last year. It was the T-IV block.

You must knock out the expansion plugs to see the core shift and casting seams on the cyls. Ususally the worst one is in the front of cyl. #1, and you can see that through the water pump hole, but you must check them all, front and back.

Also what I have found by sonic checking so many of these blocks is that the thinnest area of the cyls. is the lower third, front, at about 7:30. Most of them loose aprox. -.050 in this area @ cyls #3 .
I have found ALL blocks are thicker in the thrust side (rear)

Also, Every block I have measured/inspected that had not yet been bored has the bore spacing too far apart between Cyl#2 & #3 by about .024 (A good machinist will fix this when they bore the block, but you only get one chance at it).

Blocks that spent their life near Winnepeg Manitoba are all rust pitted in the rear:D:D sorry Rob, I just couldnt resist.

If you look close at the cut-away pics in the Knowlege Center you can see the casting butt-crack in the front of the cyl. near the water pump opening. The engine in that photo is not even that bad, some are much worse. (thanks Rob Lloyd)

If a main brg bore is out of alignment it is usually #4 or #5.

All of the blocks I have inspected could handle maybe 400HP(for a while), so dont throw them away. I'm just posting what I have found to be common to the early Common blocks.

Send me a bunch of T-III and Masi blocks and I will check them too:D
.

This should be added to the KC article in it's entirety...

[BadAssPerformance]

This should be added to the KC article in it's entirety...

+infinity, thanks for sharing Warren!

Is it possible to overcome the weaknesses like these with block fill?

[turbovanman²]

I have read alot about TIII blocks being the thickest-best, but I cannot find anyone who has personally sonic checked any. I suppose it is logical that they should have been made the strongest, but I wouldnt bet on it.

A TIII is working out GREAT for Brian, I guess that is probably what I should be searchin for.........Any leads?:eyebrows:

I do have a TIII shortblock for sale, :eyebrows:

[shackwrrr]

The seam is where mine cracked. On stock boost.

43283

[OmniLuvr]

warren, do you have a pic of the block with the crack in cyl #1? was it in the "open" deck part of the block?

[cordes]

January 8th and we already have a front runner for thread of the year. I'm in on this one for sure. Thanks for the great info guys.

[135sohc]

Warren have you noticed any extra cast in 'webbing' on your later TBI blocks on the back inside wall ? If you pop the freeze plugs and feel inside there the wall isnt smooth on the inside, its not casting garbage but intentionally extra metal that was put there in a grid pattern. I have only seen it on Mexico cast blocks.

[Warren Stramer]

warren, do you have a pic of the block with the crack in cyl #1? was it in the "open" deck part of the block?

Yes, crack is in the rear near bolt boss.......see pic, not too large yet but I can catch a nail on it.

[Warren Stramer]

Warren have you noticed any extra cast in 'webbing' on your later TBI blocks on the back inside wall ? If you pop the freeze plugs and feel inside there the wall isnt smooth on the inside, its not casting garbage but intentionally extra metal that was put there in a grid pattern. I have only seen it on Mexico cast blocks.

Yes, that crosshatch webbing is on the inside rear wall, easy to see with a flash lite down through the top deck water passages.

[OmniLuvr]

thanks warren, and wow, not what i expected :-/ what were the symptoms if you dont mind the thread jack... or was it just noticed on teardown...

[135sohc]

In all of your searching for the best block have you noticed that webbing in any particular year range/block origin ?



Yes, that crosshatch webbing is on the inside rear wall, easy to see with a flash lite down through the top deck water passages.

[Warren Stramer]

thanks warren, and wow, not what i expected :-/ what were the symptoms if you dont mind the thread jack... or was it just noticed on teardown...
Was blowing coolant out the rad. overflow, even with a 26lbs cap. Didnt know if the head was lifting, or head gskt. problem so I tore it down and found the crack. I had planned on building a new, better block anyway.
I think I will sleeve the cracked block and use it for a dyno engine.

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 PM ----------


In all of your searching for the best block have you noticed that webbing in any particular year range/block origin ?

I have only seen the webbing in this 93 TBI block.

[Pat]

I have only seen the webbing in this 93 TBI block.

i wonder if the webbing is in the '93 T3 blocks also.

[Lotashelbys]

Warren
I know for a fact that the 91-92 Mexican TIII blocks have more Nickel content it them than the US castings. We had that tested a few years back. Even the US built TIII blocks had lower Nickel. I know they also have the most extra material added in the upper main webbings than any other block I have seen. If I were to build up a high HP motor I would start with a TIII block that was cast in Mexico. Easiest way to tell is the MT or NT prefix on the VIN stamp on th e back of the block. All Mexican blaock I have seen always had actual number stamps and not the dot spectrum like the US VIN stamps....

[iTurbo]

Well I can't add a whole lot but, I do have a lot of blocks here. I have pre CB and CB 16v Masi blocks, TIII blocks including production and a couple '95 warranty blocks, early TI, late TI, '88 TI etc. Pics upon request.

[zin]

If this thread is going to become a KC article, pictures of all those blocks would be a hugely beneficial addition, IMHO anyway.

Mike

[iTurbo]

I have already cleaned most of the blocks I have. But not sure exactly what you guys want to see. I have been chasing the turbo mopar dream for a long time but still have never come close to pushing the limits of a block. I guess I'm into it more for the nostalgia now.

The blocks I can easily get pics of now:
'85 TI from a production Shelby Charger
'85 T? Came as part of a TII longblock I got from the late Dave Grove. has strange number where EIN is. Dave said it was a test mule from Direct Connection at auction.
'88 TI from a production Shadow ES
'91 TIII production block(s) '90 castings
'95 TIII warranty block '94 casting
'96 TIII warranty block '95 casting
Pre CB 16v Masi '87 casting, presumed to be from production vehicle, model year unknown
CB 16v Masi '89 casting, w/MP billet mains
CB 16v Masi complete engine on stand from production vehicle

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure the Masi 16v blocks started out as RWD blocks. The knock sensor threads into the block near the front motor mount beneath the distributor. I believe this hole was used for a motor mount bracket in a RWD application. Woulda been nice to have it that way on the TIII.

[Warren Stramer]

I have already cleaned most of the blocks I have. But not sure exactly what you guys want to see. I have been chasing the turbo mopar dream for a long time but still have never come close to pushing the limits of a block. I guess I'm into it more for the nostalgia now.

The blocks I can easily get pics of now:
'85 TI from a production Shelby Charger
'85 T? Came as part of a TII longblock I got from the late Dave Grove. has strange number where EIN is. Dave said it was a test mule from Direct Connection at auction.
'88 TI from a production Shadow ES
'91 TIII production block(s) '90 castings
'95 TIII warranty block '94 casting
'96 TIII warranty block '95 casting
Pre CB 16v Masi '87 casting, presumed to be from production vehicle, model year unknown
CB 16v Masi '89 casting, w/MP billet mains
CB 16v Masi complete engine on stand from production vehicle

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure the Masi 16v blocks started out as RWD blocks. The knock sensor threads into the block near the front motor mount beneath the distributor. I believe this hole was used for a motor mount bracket in a RWD application. Woulda been nice to have it that way on the TIII.

I would like very much to see some pics of that Masi common block with MP billet Mains!!

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------


Warren
I know for a fact that the 91-92 Mexican TIII blocks have more Nickel content it them than the US castings. We had that tested a few years back. Even the US built TIII blocks had lower Nickel. I know they also have the most extra material added in the upper main webbings than any other block I have seen. If I were to build up a high HP motor I would start with a TIII block that was cast in Mexico. Easiest way to tell is the MT or NT prefix on the VIN stamp on th e back of the block. All Mexican blaock I have seen always had actual number stamps and not the dot spectrum like the US VIN stamps....

Thanks! Good info

[RoadWarrior222]

The problem with mexican blocks having more nickel, is their gas also has more sulphur, which corrodes nickel, so those blocks could be needing rebores with relatively less mileage than US ones.

If you get one in good shape, try to aim for the top tier gas boasting the lowest sulphur content, the greenies are campaigning for sulphur reductions so it should be less of an issue than 7 or 8 years ago. Watch that race fuel though, you might wanna use E85 instead.

[turbovanman²]

Yes, crack is in the rear near bolt boss.......see pic, not too large yet but I can catch a nail on it.

Your bores look brand new, :wow1:

[4 l-bodies]

Warren,
I have 89 16V masi block that previous owner had all four cylinders resleeved. I believe this was done because they could only find JE pistons in std. bore! So rather than order custom pistons, they chose to resleeve block. Crazy, I tell you... Two cylinders were out of round and had some taper. Sleeves don't look very thick to me. I'm sort of afraid to use it (lol). I personally don't think the masi blocks were anything special aside from previously mentioned. I have noticed the 93-94 blocks having more meat in rear of block between core plugs.
LMK if you want any pics of that block.
Todd

[Reaper1]

Masi blocks aren't anything special beyond the knock sensor hole in the front from what I remember Rick tellin me.

Warren, look in my Masi build thread. My engine has billet 4-bolt mains and the Mopar Performance end main caps.

As stated the TIII blocks have the thickest main webbing and the thickest ears. The tall decks are reported to have the thickest walls. I have an idea of sleeving the block with some nice thick sleeves to use standard size pistons.

[Warren Stramer]

Thanks for the info everyone......keep it comming

---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------


Masi blocks aren't anything special beyond the knock sensor hole in the front from what I remember Rick tellin me.

Warren, look in my Masi build thread. My engine has billet 4-bolt mains and the Mopar Performance end main caps.

As stated the TIII blocks have the thickest main webbing and the thickest ears. The tall decks are reported to have the thickest walls. I have an idea of sleeving the block with some nice thick sleeves to use standard size pistons.

Reaper, you got a link to the photos and your Masi thread?

[Reaper1]

Sure! Here's the thread. ALL of the pictures of the project I have are posted here. If you want original copies so you can edit them or something, LMK and I'll email them to you.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?61091-My-Masi-engine-build&highlight=My+Masi+Build

---------- Post added at 08:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------

I just noticed that a bunch of pictures at the start of the thread aren't working. I'm trying to fix it now.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 PM ----------

Here's some decent ones of the block right as I tore it down from underneath.

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i413/rcktsrgn/20111014142335.jpg

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i413/rcktsrgn/20111014123728.jpg

And a crappy one from the back

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i413/rcktsrgn/20110929191808.jpg

---------- Post added at 08:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------

I know what the issue is with the first pictures in the thread that aren't showing up...they are linked to my facebook account. :( I have them, but I think the ones you really want to see are working later in the thread.

[Warren Stramer]

HEY THANKS Reap, I went through most of your build, Talk about turning a sow's ear into a silk purse! Nice work. Did you have any problem fitting those Mopar Performance caps? (the end ones) I have a set and they are not as precise as the ProGrams.

[Lotashelbys]

The problem with mexican blocks having more nickel, is their gas also has more sulphur, which corrodes nickel, so those blocks could be needing rebores with relatively less mileage than US ones.

Huh,I guess I didnt know that. But all the US production Spirit R/Ts with these blocks in them were shipped to the US so they probably didnt get affected by this. I have a few 91 Mexico cast TIII blocks that have 150+K on them and I have been able to re-use the factory pistons in them. That would tell me that the bores are plenty strong.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, it's probably not such a problem that the germans had with thin nikasil coatings that held up great in Europe, but died quickly over here.

[Reaper1]

HEY THANKS Reap, I went through most of your build, Talk about turning a sow's ear into a silk purse! Nice work. Did you have any problem fitting those Mopar Performance caps? (the end ones) I have a set and they are not as precise as the ProGrams.

Thanks! I'd REALLY like to have a nicely dressed crank like the one you are doing in it as well. I can't complain, that is a Masi 8V 2.2 crank, so it was in an auto car. NO wear on the thrust clearance. Care to divulge how much that cost you?

I entrusted Rick Diogo with choosing the shop that he has to all of his work (which is top notch from what I can). I honestly don'k know if there was any trouble with them or not. Rick had this set, and because I'm building an engine I want to make around 600whp with, we decided to use them. I know the shop recorded the clearance values and they are in the profile folder for the engine.

Not to get off track, but in my next iteration of this engine I intend to have a crank done up like yours using Honda rod journal sizes on it. Of course the required rods would have to go along with it. I want to either sleeve the block with thick sleeves so I can use stock diameter pistons, or put studs in the block wall to help stabilize the cylinder walls. I don't know how well a semi-filled block would work for my application, so that is not really a valid option. I'd LOVE to use 2.5 TD, but finding a belt to run the engine has proven to be problematic. I suppose at that point I could have custom crank, cam, and intermediate shaft gears to run whatever type of common belt I could find to work.

At that point the last things I can think of to help the bottom end is a fully custom crank bedplate and possibly chry-treating it. At that point I think at least 800hp could be handled by the bottom end easily.

[iTurbo]

I'm still working on getting block pics. It has been super cold here (4'F now) and we got a bunch of snow too. Plus my Dad rolled his Ford Ranger and I've been searching hi and lo for a replacement truck for him on my time off. Thankfully he was wearing his seat belt and is doing OK.

Here are some pics of the Masi 16v CB block with caps that I have already taken. When I got it a couple years ago, it came with a 2.0L crank in a Mopar Performance box, 6 Cunningham rods, and 6 Arias +.020 pistons. It was going to be used by a guy in Boise, ID for the 'streamliner' race car the previous owner had built for land speed racing at Bonneville.

43308 43309 43310 43311 43312

[thedon809]

That sucks. It's 70 out right now over here.

[lengel]

Looks like we need some billet aluminum blocks with ductile iron sleeles!:eyebrows:

[iTurbo]

If that were possible I would buy one. At least one, especially if you've got anything to do with it Adam.

[RoadWarrior222]

Well it's kinda unpossible for DD, but if you want top fuel methanol cooled drag blocks then go for it..

But, you could use maybe use 3D printing to create casting cores these days...

[Reaper1]

You could do a custom billet block for a DD. It's just going to be EXPENSIVE!! I'd bet $20,000 just for a block that can work in that sort of application. I would bet on it being able to be done as a multi-piece block that uses bolts that go all the way through it to hold the head to the "midblock" and the bedplate. There would be a lot of engineering to go into that to make it work well.

[RoadWarrior222]

Urgh, multi piece... yah, you could go back to 1910 when they used to make motors like that... :D

However, with modern materials, it would be cool to figure out a "lego" engine system where you slot modules of cylinders and crank case together in any configuration you damn well like :D

[zin]

If we're going with 3-d printed castings, then lets do a Mopar version of an Offy! Cylinder head is cast as part of the block! No worries about head gaskets there!

Mike

[shackwrrr]

Billet blocks with cooling systems are usually open deck. This would be pretty easy since ours are already considered partial open deck. Use ductile iron wet sleeves that use an o-ring to seal and o-rings for the cooling system.

[Reaper1]

The Offy idea is kind of where I was going. Remember, those things could churn out 1200hp in Indy car!