Turbonator Masi???

[GLHNSLHT2]

Any work on a 16v masi setup? My 2.5 Masi will hopefully be running this spring and going to need a cal starting point.

[ShelGame]

Any work on a 16v masi setup? My 2.5 Masi will hopefully be running this spring and going to need a cal starting point.

It's mostly done, actually. Just never finished transating the transient fuel tables. Nobody ever asked for it, so it went on the back burner (way back)...

[GLHNSLHT2]

Well I'm asking for it. :) Suprised Alan hasn't been all over it too. Would love to see even just a spark curve to compare to an 8v. Reaper1 is going to want it as well possibly ???

[ShelGame]

Well I'm asking for it. :) Suprised Alan hasn't been all over it too. Would love to see even just a spark curve to compare to an 8v. Reaper1 is going to want it as well possibly ???

It's really NOT an aggresive cal at all. From what I remember, it was actually maybe softer than a T2 cal in terms of timing. I'll try to finish it up this next week while I'm off work...

[vipernbox]

My project is on the back burner.


But put me on this list also.

[GLHNSLHT2]

That's be awesome Rob.

hehe look at the Masi people start to come out of the wood work.

[2.216VTurbo]

My yellow Masi could use a better cal but it's a pretty heavily modded 2.2 with 72PPH injectors done by a local guy, not sure how close a 2.5 cal would be??

[GLHNSLHT2]

Alan Figured we'd do just a stock 2.2 Masi cal and then I'd tweak it for my 2.5. I just am curious as to what it looks like against a 2.2 T2 or a 2.5 T1.

[iTurbo]

My project is back burner status as well but I would like to get in on this as I have 2.2L and 2.0L here.

[ShelGame]

Was looking thru the transient fuel code in the Masi cal today. It's actually very similar in function to the TIII code. Which makes me think that the DOHC cals need the extra transient fuel for some reason. Basically, they have different pump shot values for idle, cold idle, and normal operation. The T1 and T2 cals only have 1 pumpshot value.

So, ill have to think about how to add the Masi cal. I the way to do it will be to go ahead and add the extra code. But that will require some mods to the other templates...

[Reaper1]

I'll certainly be interested. I know Rick Diogo has a nicely tweaked Masi cal that Mike Stimac is running. I don't remember the source of that cal, but it seems to work. From what Rick told me, the stock Masi cal is VERY soft in timing. Gotta remember the stock Masi compression ratio is 7.5:1 IIRC.

I'm going to have to start to get the stuff to burn my own cals anyway. I think I popped a headgasket the other night (my own dumb fault). I didn't HEAR knock and I wasn't way up in boost at all, but I suppose the load and the boost combined with the crap gas around here and the better timing curve finally did the trick. This is the first time I've had to take the head off the car since I got it!

Anyway, back to Masi talk. Yes, VERY interested in Masi stuff. I've been going back and forth on whether to stick with stock electronics or not. Honestly, right now, the ONLY advantage aftermarket seems to have is ease of tuning and cleaning up the engine bay a bit. Other than that, the stock stuff seems to be able to do just fine.

Something to also look at with the Masi is the knock threshold (speaking of knock). The sensor is in a completely different place on the Masi, so I would think that anything having to do with that parameter is probably tweaked from the rest of the other cals.

[joelzip]

Count me in for a masi cal as well, I'm thinking sbec for my 2.2, 72lb injectors, 58mm billet ball bearing turbo.

[Reaper1]

WOW! I forgot about this thread!! I can't believe it's been over a year my car has been down. :( At least it's getting closer to having an engine in it again (well, complete engine).

This is still something I'm interested in as sticking with the stock electronics will save me a good amount of money and time.

[ShelGame]

WOW! I forgot about this thread!! I can't believe it's been over a year my car has been down. :( At least it's getting closer to having an engine in it again (well, complete engine).

This is still something I'm interested in as sticking with the stock electronics will save me a good amount of money and time.

OK, I'll try to finish up the template for the Masi cal...

[Reaper1]

Thanks, Rob. I'm not in a big hurry, but some of the other guys might have a bit more advanced schedule than me. I'm *hoping* to have the engine in the car sometime in the spring. I don't know if it'll be running, but I at least want it in the car.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Life keeps taking my project money :( But I'd love to have this so I can start looking over it and comparing it to other stuff so I know where to start since mine is going to be a 2.5.

[Reaper1]

Sounds like I need to make a trip to Spokane to get edumacated in the dark art of Chrysler SMEC/SBEC tuning! ;)

[joelzip]

Rob I called two times and left two messages in the last month and also filled out a custom cal form on your website without a response or return phone call. Is there a better way to contact you? I just shipped my computer core to you today.

[ShelGame]

Rob I called two times and left two messages in the last month and also filled out a custom cal form on your website without a response or return phone call. Is there a better way to contact you? I just shipped my computer core to you today.

I've been working 10 hour days at my 'regular' job. So, haven't had much time to return calls at reasonable hours. Sorry, I did see your message and spec sheet. I just didn't put the 2 together. I'll send you an email later today...

Or, you can PM me on here. I check at least once a day.

[joelzip]

Got my computer back from Rob with the flashable chip and cord. Hopefully catch up with him in the summer and have it tuned! Very luck to have him only 30 minutes away.

[iTurbo]

Rob, would it be possible to get a SBEC Masi 16v cal? I have already converted my Shelby Lancer from LM/PM to SBEC and would rather not have to pull it all back out and convert to SMEC. Really like having the PDC in the car and don't want to give it up. I'm looking at installing stock 2.2L Masi 16v into the car later this year.

[vipernbox]

He worked me up a sbec cal. It still needs tuning. And I think I have a bad ground/connection somewhere. But I do have a masi running a sbec cal

[iTurbo]

Right on, thanks for letting me know.

[ShelGame]

He worked me up a sbec cal. It still needs tuning. And I think I have a bad ground/connection somewhere. But I do have a masi running a sbec cal

Let me what's up with the cal. There's a lot of stuff to copy over from the Masi. But, luckily the Masi used basically the same code as the T1 and T2. So, copying is pretty straight forward.

[GLHNSLHT2]

so is turbonator masi ready yet?

[Reaper1]

so is turbonator masi ready yet?

You got a running Masi engine yet? ;) :ballchain: :whip: :bolt:

[iTurbo]

Who does? heheh. Not me yet either...are we all in the same boat or what?!

edit: I'm thinking we're all in good company though! Lot's of very cool projects coming to light here. From mild to wild; but I gotta admit I probably have the tamest goals. Can't wait to see what everybody else does with theirs. I'm particularly interested in Jay's setup because I'm a pretty big fan of the 2.5L..

[joelzip]

The computer he just made for me is an sbec.

[Reaper1]

Who does? heheh. Not me yet either...are we all in the same boat or what?!

edit: I'm thinking we're all in good company though! Lot's of very cool projects coming to light here. From mild to wild; but I gotta admit I probably have the tamest goals. Can't wait to see what everybody else does with theirs. I'm particularly interested in Jay's setup because I'm a pretty big fan of the 2.5L..

I think we are all in the same boat! We might need a bigger boat! (sorry, I couldn't resist)

[GLHNSLHT2]

You got a running Masi engine yet? ;) :ballchain: :whip: :bolt:


Wow, I see how it is :) ugh life. Gotta replace or fix my daily drive now (stupid snow plow driver) Then get a fricken raise at work.


I'm particularly interested in Jay's setup because I'm a pretty big fan of the 2.5L..

Thanks Jeremy, I too am particularly interested in what it's going to turn out like. I too love the 2.5 in a heavier car. It feels like the 2.2 in my GLH. I was way happy with the 2.5 8v I had in my Tona as it revved up nice and quick and had tons of top end. If I can get this thing put together into the setup I want I'm hoping it will be a monster.

[vipernbox]

Let me what's up with the cal. There's a lot of stuff to copy over from the Masi. But, luckily the Masi used basically the same code as the T1 and T2. So, copying is pretty straight forward.



I will let ya know.. I just have a couple projects I am working VERY hard to complete... In fact... I just wired up a SBEC in my VNT sandrail... I'll test it on that setup as it is throwing no codes... I have no idea what is up with the van.. I discovered unplugging the O2 sensor will cause it to die... (regardless of which computer setup) I suspect a bad ground somewhere... but where.. I dunno.. all the easy stuff has been checked and rechecked.. No idea...

The other problem is I wasn't able to get my laptop to play nicely with the new SCI cable... But at the time I was in a hurry and the van was running.. and I needed it for work.. So it went to work...

I appreciate all your help Rob... and will let ya know what I can figure out ASAP!

[iTurbo]

We might need a bigger boat. Cool. The more the merrier.

Jay, my thinking has always been that combining the high flowing DOHC 16v head *and* a stroker 2.5L is a winner. Great fun on the street and major power potential. I had a "2.5L TII" in my GLH for quite a while and it was insane fun for pizza delivery duty back in the day! Just point and shoot.

[ShelGame]

I'm working on the SMEC Masi cal dis-assy again today. Here's the thing - the Masi cal is 99% identical to the T2 software. The one place it's different is in the transient fuelling. What I think they did is add a set of values for when the engine has been idling and just comes off-idle. Those transient fuel values are different from the others, and unique to the Masi. The TIII has something similar, but not using the same code. Turbonator doesn't have anything like this in it.

However, the part-throttle and coming-off-idle MAP trigger levels are the same. The difference is in the Max Trigger level. I'll have to see what the impact there is, but the effect should be to limit how much pump-shot fuel you get coming off-idle. Which will have the effect of being more responsive off-idle.

Are the Masi's very responsive? I've never even seen one running, much less driven one...

[GLHNSLHT2]

I would imagine with the heavy crank and itty bitty turbo that response isn't that great. That being said a # of us are not going to be stock. Myself will be running a 2.5 crank, Oliver rods, JE's, aluminum flywheel, UDP, fidanza pulleys on all 3 pulleys, and a crank gear that weighs almost 1/2 of what a stocker does, either a GTX30R or a GT35R, 4" intake with 3" plumbing, 3" or maybe 4" exhaust, big FMIC and a 58mm TB, so response should be pretty damn quick. I like to have all the components installed before that 1st fire up so I don't have one running yet, and I've never heard or driven a stocker either so I can't say what they're like in that form. Alan?????

[2.216VTurbo]

Not sure I understand the question, what are you guys asking?

[iTurbo]

Heh, well Alan, since you seem to be worlds ahead of us all and actually have a running example of a Masi 16v motor...

What is the throttle response like compared to a TI/TII/TIII? Driveability? Does it rev nice off idle? Do you ever find yourself wishing it was a 2.5L on the street? That sort of thing.

[4 l-bodies]

Ha! your asking the wrong guy about wishing it was a 2.5. Alan is planning to go the other way to 2.0. A stock masi has very good driveability. With that heavy flywheel it's like learning to drive in a 4 cylinder Honda. You let let out the clutch and go. Being a 4 valve motor, it is always going to be down a little torque down low compared to a 2 valve motor.
Todd

[iTurbo]

Thanks Todd, I can go both ways here (2.0/2.2/2.5), but I might be 200 years old by the time that happens?! Damn!

[2.216VTurbo]

Ha! your asking the wrong guy about wishing it was a 2.5. Alan is planning to go the other way to 2.0. A stock masi has very good driveability. With that heavy flywheel it's like learning to drive in a 4 cylinder Honda. You let let out the clutch and go. Being a 4 valve motor, it is always going to be down a little torque down low compared to a 2 valve motor.
Todd

I would be done with the 2l by now (3 years into it I think but the Big D ate some of that up) if my builder could just stay healthy... I have the $$ and the parts, having the time is hardest. Skilz, well I've built plenty of TM motors but this one may be a little trickier:o

As Todd mentioned with a stock Masi set up and heavy rotating assembly, you can literally let the clutch out-then hit the gas, it WILL NOT stall, even on an incline:thumb: It's weird, I've been letting a special friend drive the White TC some lately, she hasn't driven a 5 spd car in years and didn't stall it once. I didn't actually tell her why not;) Damn, she looks good in that car:eyebrows:

As far as a modded Masi 16V motor, the one in my Red GLHS is not a very usefull comparison. See, 'back then' in the 90's engine management sucked and detonation was the biggest concern so I set it up 7:1 CR so I could run 35PSI if I wanted to. It's never been over 20 yet, spins in 4th with 225 DR's and a Quaife posi so it's been pointless to go higher:thumb: That and the GT35 makes it pretty poochy before 4500RPMS. The builder guy in this thread has me talked into a much high CR on the 2l, approaching 9:1:evil: I don't actually expect any meaningful boost until 5K but 5K to 9K watch out:wow1: A 4K 'useable' powerband in a roadrace car will be entertaining.

[GLHNSLHT2]

so in stock form then a masi isn't very responsive it sounds like. Too much weight.

[ShelGame]

so in stock form then a masi isn't very responsive it sounds like. Too much weight.

That would explain why the cal has special standing-start pump-shot values.

If everyone interested in this is basically running a custom setup, then it's probably OK to ignore the standing start stuff.

[2.216VTurbo]

so in stock form then a masi isn't very responsive it sounds like. Too much weight.


Too many valves, Too little lift from the cams. However, full boost by 2K RPMs, is that responsive? Such a subjective question.

[GLHNSLHT2]

by responsive I mean blip the throttle and you get 2k rpms of gain. Or is it all so heavy you blip the throttle and the revs struggle to climb 500rpms.

[Reaper1]

No, from what I'm understanding it is responsive. It's not "snappy", but from what I've seen/heard it drives like a nice V6. That was the whole point behind the really small turbo. The one or two times I've heard one run it seems to rev like a stock TII, but that's just sitting there blipping the gas.

My build is 2.2L (TII crank), 8.5:1 (I need to double check that, might be 8.2) Venolia's .020 over, BC pro rods, 4-bolt mains, ARP studs in all the critical areas, TU "race" steel flywheel, Fidanza cam pullies (hoping to get an aluminum version of the stock I-shaft gear), RDI prepped head with all the goodies (except the cam buckets...they were out of my $ range at the time). I haven't decided on the turbo yet, but I'm leaning heavily toward a BW EFR. I'm aiming for the same type of power band as Alan (redline around 8500, so not quite as high revving). I might attempt something that hasn't been done in our community that I know of. There are a few that know what it is, but I'm keeping that card close for now.

I know I'm going to need a custom intake to make my eventual goals, but I want to get the car going and be able to drive it and get used to how to tune it.

[joelzip]

I looked into the BW EFR turbo but couldn't find a size that I wanted. Which one did you have in mind? The t3 .82 I considered to be a bit large for a street car but I guess it would work for a drag racing. The size under that is a t25 inlet flange which is too small.

[Reaper1]

I am looking at the 8374. Yeah, it's friggin huge (compressor housing outer diameter is around 8" from what I can tell). My goals are 750crank, 8500 redline. Either using the .92 T4 TS internal WG, or the .83 T3 internal WG. From what I've read the cars that have run this turbo (mostly EVO's) have all reported exceptional response, good drivability, and boost starts to come in around 4000-4500 on a 2.0L. They are putting down the numbers I'm looking for. There are also a number of time attack cars I've found that use either this turbo or the even larger 9180.

I'm not planning to drag race my car at all, really. I want to road race it (track days), and do LSR type stuff. Silver State Classic is pretty much the end goal. I want a sustained 200+mph.

Yes, these choices are large, but to meet my goals I think this is my best options. It offers a lot of nice integrated hardware, and the design is a ground-up deal aimed directly at the performance market. The fact that the Ford EcoTec that was in the Daytona Prototype did pretty darn well in the Rolex 24, and set a new lap record around the tri-oval with no turbo failures...that impressed me.

Yeah, they are expensive, but given everything they come with and are capable of, compared to similar turbos that still need external peripheries, it's a good deal. Plus, I can add the compressor wheel speed sensor REALLY easy! That makes it SUPER simple to figure out how the turbo is working for the way it's tuned. Add an exhaust backpressure probe and you can pretty much tell if you have the right turbo or if there is something else in your system that needs attention to get the most out of everything. If I had the spare funds, I'd be ordering it tomorrow! I'm THAT sold on them.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Bump, since you're on a "custom cal "pause"" maybe this will get finished???

[ShelGame]

Maybe. I have to get caught up first...

[johnl]

The best way to understand the drivability of the Masi is to think of it as the passenger car V8 that Chrysler, at that moment, didn't have.

The Masi with its heavy rotating assembly and its smallish ports and small turbo (especially the compressor) was built to meet or beat the power curve of the V8s that were in the luxury cars of Ford and GM.


Yes, in stock form they don't spin up quickly but you don't notice that because of the torque. And, make no mistake, they DO spin, quite happily, and - for a four - very smoothly. It was designed to match the power characteristics expected of a late 80's 4 or 5 liter luxury car.

And like Alan says - easy peezy out of the hole, off idle. One day my niece called to say that she was going to Europe and that she would have to drive clutch rental cars there and she knew I had some and could I teach her - I had several cars to choose from, I chose the Ramerati. Made her stop on a steep hill, told her to imagine that there was another car tight and right behind us, that she would crash into it if she blew the start . . .. she let out the clutch and chug chug chug, no sweat.

Here are comparison pics - .42 A/R and center off a Volvo (IIRC what Boyd said) below and stock ISI on top.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Thanks John. hopefully my 2.5 cast crank, Oliver rods, GT30R with .82 exhaust and external WG, Aluminum flywheel, UDP, Fidanza pulleys on all 3 gears and a BR crank pulley should be a little more "responsive".

I'm done waiting on the guy from work to finish welding my exhaust manny, just going to get it and take it to my pay guy.

[2.216VTurbo]

I would be interested in that stock IHI RB5 turbo if you wanna part with it John. My White Masi needs a little upgrade, stock is a 12T compressor, with a 16T compressor they maintain stock-like driveability with a 35HP kick up top.

[Reaper1]

Here are comparison pics - .42 A/R and center off a Volvo (IIRC what Boyd said) below and stock ISI on top.

Is the exhaust manifold on that flipped over?


I would be interested in that stock IHI RB5 turbo if you wanna part with it John. My White Masi needs a little upgrade, stock is a 12T compressor, with a 16T compressor they maintain stock-like driveability with a 35HP kick up top.

I don't imagine you need a totally stock Masi IHI?

[joelzip]

I think my factory masi turbo is going to turn into a bedside lamp.....

[johnl]

I would be interested in that stock IHI RB5 turbo if you wanna part with it John. My White Masi needs a little upgrade, stock is a 12T compressor, with a 16T compressor they maintain stock-like driveability with a 35HP kick up top.

Sure but I should wait until after I get this thing up and running and re-registered.