At a Cross-Roads...

[RIMoparGuy]

So, long story short - Bill Baker's old Shadow, just dropped $1,000 into an axle, Steering Rack, Tranny Seal, PS Hose. Had a sneaking suspicion there was an issue on the head. Sure enough, coolant smoke coming out of the exhaust, coolant in the oil. Mechanic #1 says about $1200, however I discovered that they were marking up the gasket set $100, so it's on to the next shop. I'm just getting nervous because I'm way past what I had budgeted to help restore this car over the winter, and now it's un-driveable until I can get this head gasket replaced. My questions are...

Does the head have to go out for re-surfacing?
Oil Pressure is still good, do you think the block is safe?
Is there anything else I should be looking out for?

Bill, if you're reading this, can I still use a stock gasket if it is indeed the Menegon head on there?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Stick a FelPro on there and drive it!

[black86glhs]

Make Bill fix it since it was defective when he sold it to you?????








Just kidding. Should the head be sent out, yes. Do you have to, no. Is it better to send it out, yes. Will you save money sending it out, no. I take it you don't have the ability or time to do it yourself?

[Directconnection]

You should have it checked by a GOOD shop. Doing the slip and slide never works out for the long term. You would be better off having it at a friend's house and doing the work, or contracting a local TM member to do it for you.

[BadFastGTC]

Have the head and deck checked for straightness before anything. Determine course from there. Hopefully all you have is a gasket failure and it can go back together without additional machining.

[Force Fed Mopar]

FWIW, if I was doing this job, I would charge $250 labor + parts + machine work. A head gasket set should be around $50, and my machine shop charges $150-$200 to do a 2.2/2.5 head, unless new valves are needed. Valves are around $15-20 each last I checked for OEM replacements.

[tryingbe]

Gaskets + headbolts are less than $70 shipped. Oil, filter, and coolant are $40 or less. All the rest are labor. Start learning how to do this on your own?

[cordes]

+1 for doing it yourself. If I had to pay real money to have my cars worked on I would probably have something with a little more flash than our TMs.

[RIMoparGuy]

Unfortunately, I live in a large condo building, and have no garage, and I work 70-80 hours a week. I'm having a friend in the business put a quote together for me now. The machine work isn't too bad, I know of a few good shops. Just taking an educated guess and since it only got hot once and not for long, I'd be willing to bet it doesn't need to be re-surfaced, but I'll figure that out for sure once it gets taken apart. If I lived closer to someone like Cliff, I would see if he wanted to do it. If anyone is near 02904, let me know! Just so there's no confusion, I didn't buy this from Bill, I was just looking for his input on the situation.

[turbovanman²]

So, long story short - Bill Baker's old Shadow, just dropped $1,000 into an axle, Steering Rack, Tranny Seal, PS Hose. Had a sneaking suspicion there was an issue on the head. Sure enough, coolant smoke coming out of the exhaust, coolant in the oil. Mechanic #1 says about $1200, however I discovered that they were marking up the gasket set $100, so it's on to the next shop. I'm just getting nervous because I'm way past what I had budgeted to help restore this car over the winter, and now it's un-driveable until I can get this head gasket replaced. My questions are...

Does the head have to go out for re-surfacing?
Oil Pressure is still good, do you think the block is safe?
Is there anything else I should be looking out for?

Bill, if you're reading this, can I still use a stock gasket if it is indeed the Menegon head on there?

Sorry but that piss's me off, so the shop, who is in business to make money, has to pay mechanics, tax's, building rent etc is considered a rip off by marking up the gaskets $100?????????? Do you have any idea how much food and other items are marked up?

Time to do it yourself or hire a friend for cash. Rant off.

[wallace]

Sorry but that piss's me off, so the shop, who is in business to make money, has to pay mechanics, tax's, building rent etc is considered a rip off by marking up the gaskets $100?????????? Do you have any idea how much food and other items are marked up?

Time to do it yourself or hire a friend for cash. Rant off.

Come on Simon, that's 200% markup on a head gasket. I can see 25-35% but 200?!!

[Ondonti]

Providing your own parts is a nice way of protecting yourself.

[4 l-bodies]

These vehicles are getting old, having lived a hard life. Especially yours, (since Billy B. owned it) I kid, I kid (lol)! The old horse saying about run hard and put away wet comes to mind when describing the typical TM. You need to expect that things like this will happen. Losing a headgasket is hardly uncommon esp. when vehicles output is at least twice what is was from the factory.
The title of your thread says a lot to me. If you are truly at a crossroad over this bump in the road, you should probably rethink owning this type of vehicle. With owning this type of vehicle comes periodic headgasket changes, new clutches, losing a turbo, a piston, maybe even an entire motor, let alone constantly buying new HP parts, etc. None of which are cheap. Not trying to deter you from restoring a TM, in fact I applaud your efforts, but just trying to keep it real with the frustration, money, heartache, that comes with ownership of any HP Turbo Mopar. This is no Camry, Accord you bought.
Good luck,
Todd

[tryingbe]

Providing your own parts is a nice way of protecting yourself.

If you want no warranty for the work and have a slight possibility of being kicked out of the shop, go for it.

[turbovanman²]

Come on Simon, that's 200% markup on a head gasket. I can see 25-35% but 200?!!

He said gasket set, so if the set cost $100, it would be $200, that's a 50% markup, which is the norm for shops, if you don't follow that, you go bankrupt, simple as that. I really don''t to start a pissing match over running a business vs hobby cars, they do not go hand in hand unless your willing to pay either a shop the proper rate or you have a deal with a shop or you have a friend do it.

When you go out for a nice steak dinner, do you say to the waiter/owner, I AM NOT PAYING $40 for that, I can go to Costco and get it for $10? and then say, I'll bring my own, can you cook it for me? Or you go for a beer and pay $5 and say, forget it, I'll bring my own, I can buy a case of beer for that!

For some reason, everyone and their uncle can fix cars and you expect shops to do it for nothing yet people have no qualms about paying for food, alchol etc at 200-300% + what you can buy it for at the store?? :confused:



Providing your own parts is a nice way of protecting yourself.

Yep and no warranty and you'll most likely have a crappy job done, unless you have some sort of arrangement.


If you want no warranty for the work and have a slight possibility of being kicked out of the shop, go for it.

Yep, unless you do have some kind of arrangement.

[RIMoparGuy]

Just to clear a few things up here... The gasket set, identical sets, was $69 from Rock Auto and $179 through the mechanic. This particular shop is perfectly fine with me supplying parts, and in the case of this car, I HAD to supply a part, the gas tank, because they couldn't get one (not sure why, I found them readily available through multiple vendors). They are a good, trustworthy and reliable shop. That being said, they also do things by the book, and charge a premium labor rate. While I make a good living, I'm certainly not growing it on trees, especially since I'm looking at having to short sell my condo soon (not because of default, it's a 1br and my wife and I want to have kids).
While the financial ramifications of owning a car like this can be discouraging, I am a car guy, and a Chrysler guy at heart. I commute over 100 miles round trip each day in a Subaru Outback wagon. While it is a great commuter car, it's also a slow torture for a car guy like me. This isn't the first time I've had a daily driver and a recreational car, I've just never had to put so much money into my recreational car in such a short period of time. Coupled with work being extremely stressful right now, and Bank of America making my life a NIGHTMARE, it puts a lot of pressure on the decision making process. It seems every time I get my affairs in order and can have something fun, it all goes to crap, i.e. the Hemi Aspen I had before my Subaru and had to ditch when my previous job turned to crap and took a job much further away from home.

Anyways, It seems like mixed opinions on whether or not I should have the head machined. I'm still waiting on word from a family friend if he can take the job for less than my regular mechanic. DIY is not an option due to the hours I work and having no dedicated garage of my own right now. Aside from potentially having the head re-surfaced, is there anything else I should be taking into consideration or looking at?

[4 l-bodies]

Figure out what let go and why. Pull plugs and find out what cylinder(s) are leaking coolant. Perform compression check. This can narrow down cylinders in question. If there are no obvious signs of the headgasket leaking, I would have the head hydro-tested. That would really suck to put it all back together to find you have the same problem. That is around $40 where I live. Like others have said, CLEAN then check the deck of block and head for flatness and imperfections. The head will only be around $40 or so to have resurfaced just enough to clean it up (.004-.006) should do it. Make sure gorillas that tear down motor don't drag head across locating dowel pins in block when removing assembly. Those pins are very close to fire ring sealing areas on #1&4. If the headbolts are stock OEM type (torque to yield) bolts replace them. Cheap insurance as they are supposed to be one time use. If they are ARP headbolts or studs, check them carefully for stretching. Chase threads on block. Check the deck of block for erosion around waterjackets carefully.
Todd

[shmedley]

He said gasket set, so if the set cost $100, it would be $200, that's a 50% markup, which is the norm for shops, if you don't follow that, you go bankrupt, simple as that. I really don''t to start a pissing match over running a business vs hobby cars, they do not go hand in hand unless your willing to pay either a shop the proper rate or you have a deal with a shop or you have a friend do it.

When you go out for a nice steak dinner, do you say to the waiter/owner, I AM NOT PAYING $40 for that, I can go to Costco and get it for $10? and then say, I'll bring my own, can you cook it for me? Or you go for a beer and pay $5 and say, forget it, I'll bring my own, I can buy a case of beer for that!

For some reason, everyone and their uncle can fix cars and you expect shops to do it for nothing yet people have no qualms about paying for food, alchol etc at 200-300% + what you can buy it for at the store?? :confused:



I understand mark up at shops they have to make money. Buy some try to bend you over the coils.
My latest example...
I took my Neon in for an alignment and was told the following
Needed all new struts front and rear (base model) at the low low price of 300.00 EACH! :mad:
Front sway bar bushings 100.00
Cam bolts for alignment 80.00
Those prices did NOT include labor either total was a little over 2000 with labor tax and fees.

[domni058]

Hi, I live in plymouth ma, and have a collection of dodge turbo parts and i can sell you a mopar 005 head gasket and a set of mopar head bolts all still in the original packages. i will send you a pm with my cell# thanks, Doug.

[85glht]

He said gasket set, so if the set cost $100, it would be $200, that's a 50% markup


That would be 100% mark up. 50% would be $150.

[RIMoparGuy]

Update: Hopefully this should be back on the road by the time I get back from Cali vacation at the end of the month. Gonna try and get the swing valve wrapped up by late spring and get the seats/door panels swapped out for the summer. Heater Core still needs addressing but not until the fall.

[turbovanman²]

That would be 100% mark up. 50% would be $150.

No, that would be 50%, that's the way it works in retail, forget the exact term right now.


Update: Hopefully this should be back on the road by the time I get back from Cali vacation at the end of the month. Gonna try and get the swing valve wrapped up by late spring and get the seats/door panels swapped out for the summer. Heater Core still needs addressing but not until the fall.

So what did you end up doing?

[Reaper1]

The way I always understood markup is this: the markup is the percentage of the base price that is added TO the base price. So, if you have a $100 base price, $150 is a 50% markup.

I do agree that a 50% markup is normal, and on some stuff 100% (nuts and bolts are a good example). It is also standard practice to have a "shop fee" of a certain amount to cover the cost of expendable items and services the shop has to pat for like brake cleaner, shop towels, recylcing oil, ect.

I did get VERY angry with a shop not too long ago that tried to tell my wife that it would take $2000 to put new struts on her car and do an alignment! I knew EXACTLY how much they were paying for the parts because my store would have been supplying the parts! It was a 300% markup on parts and they were charging her WAY over book time to do it! WTF!?

Most shops WILL NOT accept you bringing your own parts, unless you sign a waiver stating that you give up ANY warranty, and even then, most won't do it. Reason being is that if they have to warranty out something, they can't claim labor on it.

[turbovanman²]

The way I always understood markup is this: the markup is the percentage of the base price that is added TO the base price. So, if you have a $100 base price, $150 is a 50% markup.

I do agree that a 50% markup is normal, and on some stuff 100% (nuts and bolts are a good example). It is also standard practice to have a "shop fee" of a certain amount to cover the cost of expendable items and services the shop has to pat for like brake cleaner, shop towels, recylcing oil, ect.

I did get VERY angry with a shop not too long ago that tried to tell my wife that it would take $2000 to put new struts on her car and do an alignment! I knew EXACTLY how much they were paying for the parts because my store would have been supplying the parts! It was a 300% markup on parts and they were charging her WAY over book time to do it! WTF!?

Most shops WILL NOT accept you bringing your own parts, unless you sign a waiver stating that you give up ANY warranty, and even then, most won't do it. Reason being is that if they have to warranty out something, they can't claim labor on it.

Doubling the price is 50%, like I said, I can't remember how it works but that's how it works. If the part is $25 and I charge $50, that's a 50% markup. As I mentioned earlier, if you saw how much food was you'd faint. Look at plumbers, electricians etc all mark up prices, the difference is most of us can't get those parts as cheaply as auto parts, plus with the influx of Ebay stores-no overhead, prices have dropped even more.

The reason we don't accept parts, unless prior arrangements are made, are numerous, IE warranty, only charging labour we don't make money-thus we shut down-just look at all the "cheap shops" that come and go, fit concerns-you take the car apart and shockers, its the wrong one, well now its on the hoist, tying up a money making bay and you can't get ahold of the customer, your turning retail work away etc. If you want to bring your own parts, I explain how it all works and if you still want to do it, and I am not busy, I charge more labour, no warranty of any kind and IF you bring the wrong part, I charge $5 a minute the car is on the hoist until the right part shows up, never done the last one yet as the "customer" will ok me to supply the part. :eyebrows:

I agree, some shops go too far and some shops charge too little, its hard to find a happy medium.

[Reaper1]

That is totally different than any way I've ever seen it calculated...

Either way, we agree, shops HAVE to mark stuff up to make money so they can at the minimum, stay open.

[turbovanman²]

That is totally different than any way I've ever seen it calculated...

Either way, we agree, shops HAVE to mark stuff up to make money so they can at the minimum, stay open.

This explains it-

http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/193986

[WLKivett]

This is called gross margin.

You divide your cost by 1 less your mark up

5 /(1-.5)=10

[Reaper1]

Interesting. I can tell you for fact that I've worked for 3 retailers that don't use that formula! They all make really good money and are very compatative in their markets.

[RIMoparGuy]

Holy off topic! Turbovanman- the memeber who sold me the car stepped up and offered to change the gasket for a very reasonable labor charge, and is going to take the head out to be looked over, planed down if warped and mostly re-built. I'm working on a list of what parts I need to get from FWD performance, which I'll start a separate thread for. He's gonna do the work while I'm on vaca (although I wish I had the free time to help/learn). As long as the job goes well, it just leaves details to bring the car to where I want it. What happens when it comes time to sell my condo is another story, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

[turbovanman²]

Holy off topic! Turbovanman- the memeber who sold me the car stepped up and offered to change the gasket for a very reasonable labor charge, and is going to take the head out to be looked over, planed down if warped and mostly re-built. I'm working on a list of what parts I need to get from FWD performance, which I'll start a separate thread for. He's gonna do the work while I'm on vaca (although I wish I had the free time to help/learn). As long as the job goes well, it just leaves details to bring the car to where I want it. What happens when it comes time to sell my condo is another story, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Yeah, we tend to go off topic alot around here, lol.

That's cool, and yeah, watching/learning would be good, your going to need it, lol.

[RIMoparGuy]

Update: Just had the car towed to another member's house. From there, the head will be going to Steve Menegon for a good once over, and any necessary repairs. Gasket set is on the way, just went with a good Fel-Pro set. It'll get a fresh valve cover gasket and thermostat as well. Hopefully it should come back to life in the next two weeks!

[RIMoparGuy]

Update-not looking good. There is aluminum pitting around the intake valve seats and there's a crack developing off of intake valve on cylinder 2. It doesn't look severe but its length is worrying. I'll get pics up when I get home. Gonna send it to Steve and see if its salvagble.