PT lifters making crazy noises.

[shackwrrr]

Today I found out that the "piston slap" that Ive been living with for a while was actually coming from under the valve cover. The previous owner listed PT lifters as one of his mods when I bought the van. Has anyone had PT lifters go bad from sitting? Most likely a shim problem?

The same amount of sound is coming out of all 8 lifters at idle but one or 2 are noticeably louder when driving.

has anyone else had problems?

[turbovanman²]

I would check the preload. Easiest way to tell is to set the engine at TDC, remove the cam caps, the cam should lift up about 1/4, not very scientific but a good way, then you can physically check the shims and how thick they are.

Its extremely rare for lifters to go bad sitting.

[shackwrrr]

Thats what I thought, thanks

I checked back to the previous owners build page (darkwolf) and he mentions a couple of washers under the lifters. Maybe its a regrind and he didn't know.

[bakes]

Make sure the retainerlock are not butted together i have seen this 4 time in 3 year now and if they are they will machine the way to the top of the valve .

[boost geek]

P T's should be quiet like simon said may be a shim isueregrind cam could be a nisue

[shackwrrr]

Make sure the retainerlock are not butted together i have seen this 4 time in 3 year now and if they are they will machine the way to the top of the valve .

Could be, it has 3.1 retainers and 3.3 springs. Thanks.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Add a washer and see if it gets quiet.

[boost geek]

be carefull notobend the cam when looosening the caps loosen and tighten the cappsevenly!

[BadFastGTC]

I would not recommend running the PT lifters with a reground cam. The reduced base circle combined with how far it is necessary to shim them may create more problems than you are willing to accept. Additionally, those stock springs are not good to run with a more aggressive lobe profile. You'd be better off with the Comp beehive or another performance oriented spring.

[turbovanman²]

I would not recommend running the PT lifters with a reground cam. The reduced base circle combined with how far it is necessary to shim them may create more problems than you are willing to accept. Additionally, those stock springs are not good to run with a more aggressive lobe profile. You'd be better off with the Comp beehive or another performance oriented spring.

Agreed on the 3.3 beehives, they are very weak.

You can shim up the PT lifter quite a bit, as long as the oil hole is below the bore, its ok. You can run a Taft S2 or smaller but that's it.

[shackwrrr]

Alright, I took it apart and the previous owner used washers that were too big. They were the right thickness, so he tried grinding them down but most of them sat on that little step on the bottom. Some bottomed out though and some stuck higher so I'm guessing this was the issue.

I spent a good hour pulling the shims, heat and a special tool I made got most of them. The last one he didn't grind down so it was stuck pretty good, about .020 above the step. I used a 5/16 blind hole tap which cut threads in the washer, then used a 5/16 bolt to jack the washer out.

For now I installed a set of stock lifters and checked everything over and it looks good.

Also if I were to get the comp beehives, would the 3.1 retainers work?

[turbovanman²]

Alright, I took it apart and the previous owner used washers that were too big. They were the right thickness, so he tried grinding them down but most of them sat on that little step on the bottom. Some bottomed out though and some stuck higher so I'm guessing this was the issue.

I spent a good hour pulling the shims, heat and a special tool I made got most of them. The last one he didn't grind down so it was stuck pretty good, about .020 above the step. I used a 5/16 blind hole tap which cut threads in the washer, then used a 5/16 bolt to jack the washer out.

For now I installed a set of stock lifters and checked everything over and it looks good.

Also if I were to get the comp beehives, would the 3.1 retainers work?

Bummer.

Yep, Comp cams conicals will work.

[shackwrrr]

I'm happy, it would have been a bummer if the washers were stuck forever.

[shackwrrr]

Well its still making noise. Same noise as before. If I put a stethoscope on the valve cover its the loudest, closer you get to the timing belt the louder it gets.

If I put it on the valve cover rail its quieter, If I put it on the head, even quieter, and if I put it on the block its pretty much non existant. It sounds kinda like piston slap but I would think that would make sound through the block. Looking through the oil cap, plenty of oil is coming out of the squirters.

[shackwrrr]

I also tried disconnecting the spark plug wires one by one and the noise never changed.

[black86glhs]

Swap the lifters from it to #4 and see if the noise jumps to #4. That way you know it is the lifters.

[shackwrrr]

Ill try that.

I am going to the JY sunday, I might get some rockers to throw in.

I scrapped all my spare valve covers or I would make one so I could run the engine without getting oil all over.

[turbovanman²]

Wrist pin noise and piston slap will sound like valve train noise. You would think it would come out of the block but it doesn't, you'd swear it was valvetrain related.

[shackwrrr]

:( bummer

I figured that unhooking the spark plug wire would quiet it. Number one piston was one of the more scuffed ones from my old block. I tried getting a video but my alternator belt decided it wanted to start squealing so you can't hear anything. Under light thrifts blips it sounds exactly like a diesel. When driving it makes a more metallic knocking noise until about 1000-1200 rpm then it is quiet. Under WOT it is silent. While driving it sounds like only one is making noise, when sitting still it sounds like they all rattle.

Wrist pins I would hope are good since other than the scuffed skirts the pistons were fairly new and rods were checked.

I did notice that when bouncing off the staging limiter ir rattles pretty bad.

It's really annoying and pisses me off but I guess it won't hurt anything for a while.

[turbovanman²]

Sounds like piston slap. Is it worse cold? If yes, then slap, if no, wrist pin.

[wallace]

I've got this same issue with my dd. I'd really like to know what you find to be the issue. Mine runs really good doesn't burn oil etc just has the same issue at idle. I've got PT's in it with shims from the Pope. When I serviced the head I found the same thing you did some of the shims are jammed down in the step at the bottom of the bore. I was unable to remove them so I left them in and reassembled. Mine has stock replacement springs, stock retainers, and keepers all with about 75,000 miles on them. All was new when I rebuilt the original engine. I had this issue on the 2.5 in my van. I bought a T&C wagon and swapped the head to this engine and the noise followed the head so I'm pretty sure mine is top end related.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Did you measure the total thickness of the shims under each lifter? IIRC I have mine shimmed about .052" and they are nice and quiet.

[wallace]

I didn't measure them I bought them from Pope and were supposed to be the correct thickness. I am not sure it's the shims/pt's causing the issue. I would swap them out for a set of stockers to verify but I can't get the shims out of some of the bores. Head is going to have to come off I have a head gasket starting to fail after an overheat condition so I may dig them all out and try a set of Cindy's to see if it helps. Car runs really good other than the funky noise at idle.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I ran what was supposed to be the correct thickness (.022-.024"? ) and they were still noisy. Went to the current setting and all is well.

[shackwrrr]

From what I read, each shim is .0625 and the pair of them in each hole is .125. All of mine measured right, they were just stuck at different heights in the head. I have the same noise now with stock lifters so I think they were OK.

My next theory is loose cam bores. With the timing belt pulling down and valves pushing up it could rattle up and down at lower rpms. The cam bore at the timing belt end is the last to get oil so that would explain why it gets better when rpms come up. This head did come from an engine that spun a couple rod bearings and the cam bores did have scoring. Also the head being aluminum, that would expand ad quiet it down when warmed up.

Now something that doesn't fit with that theory is that for my last oil change I used some 10w40 and it seemed like the noise got worse. It could have been a couple times that I drove it cold(noise it louder) that made it worse.

[shackwrrr]

This is cold

http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/shackwrrr/VID_20121109_093155.mp4

[shackwrrr]

And this is warmed up, you can hear it when I blip the throttle right before the belt starts screaming. If I hold the rpms it goes away.


http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/shackwrrr/VID_20121108_173715.mp4

Also the worst scuffed piston wasn't more than .003 smaller so if the machinist used a good piston to set bore size with a clearance of .004 then that piston won't have more than .007 side clearance. I would thing that would be more silent than the noise I'm hearing. There was another piston with scuffing just as bad as no.1 and it is installed in #3 and I don't get much noise on that end.

[wallace]

I can't view the attachments you posted in the two responses above. Before I swapped the head over on this engine it was so quiet you could hear the injectors doing their thing. In the van I couldn't tell where the noise was coming from. When I swapped the head over to this engine the noise followed so I think mine is definitely in the top end.

[shackwrrr]

http://vid43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/shackwrrr/VID_20121108_173715.mp4

Warm

[shackwrrr]

Cold http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/shackwrrr/?action=view&current=VID_20121109_093155.mp4

[turbovanman²]

And this is warmed up, you can hear it when I blip the throttle right before the belt starts screaming. If I hold the rpms it goes away.


http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/shackwrrr/VID_20121108_173715.mp4

Also the worst scuffed piston wasn't more than .003 smaller so if the machinist used a good piston to set bore size with a clearance of .004 then that piston won't have more than .007 side clearance. I would thing that would be more silent than the noise I'm hearing. There was another piston with scuffing just as bad as no.1 and it is installed in #3 and I don't get much noise on that end.

.007", that thing will rattle like on ones business. You found your noise, I'll listen to the sound clips later.

[shackwrrr]

If 2 are like that, why does only one make noise.

[GLHNSLHT2]

My JE's are set to .004 and they're noisy when it's cold. So if you've got .007 I'd imagine they'd be really loud.

[turbovanman²]

.007" is diesel sound territory, I put an engine together than the owner had the clearances set to .007" with vens and cold, holy mother of god, it was loud, as it warmed up, it got alot quieter but never shut down. I asked him why, he said the spec sheet said that, I had him dig it up and max size was .007", :banghead: :lol:

I don't know why only one would, how do you know its only one?

[shackwrrr]

Just the way it sounds in the van

[wallace]

Yours sounds very similar to mine. Mine is dead quiet at first start up and once a little heat gets in it the noise starts up. My current dd I bought with 70,000 original miles on it and I haven't touched the bottom end so I don't think mine is a clearance problem in the bore. Mine definitely sounds like it is in the valvetrain. I need to get it in the shop and do a bunch of maintenance to it. going to look at a possible replacement daily today. I'll post in this thread when I get the car in the shop and the top end pulled apart.

[shackwrrr]

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/shackwrrr/?action=view&current=VID_20120619_154346.mp4

Here is when I first got the van, before rebuild.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Have you guys checked foller/cam wear? Slider or roller cams?

[shackwrrr]

Well after a couple days of driving it seems to be getting quieter. Every time I drive it, the noise seems to go more away.

There is some noise still there that more reflects what loose forged pistons should sound like.

[black86glhs]

Hopefully it will come down to a livable level.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Are they they lifters with the hole in the top, or the older ones?

[shackwrrr]

I had ones with holes, I just switched back to stock 8v ones without holes. My noise of concern before was a high pitched knock. I do still have noise but its much lower pitched, more like the aluminum/iron piston slap.

[shackwrrr]

Well it seems its still there, The colder it gets the louder it gets. The couple days I couldn't hear it the daily high temp was around 72 degrees. Now that it is back into the 40's the sound came back. Must be piston slap in cylinder 1 where all the cold water from the radiator gets blasted right at it.

My thermostat might not be working right too, barely makes it into the "normal" range, its a newer dura(never)last 195 unit.

I thought about a reverse cooling system, push the cold coolant into the head and keep the pistons warm. Would help my problem, and help with power. Kinda bandaidish but I dont want to pull the engine apart again.

Another option, which involves pulling the piston(s) out, is having the skirt knurled. I know knurling is pretty old school but it works and would help me. I guess if I ever need to do a head gasket or the van is down for any extended period Ill just do this.

Its partially my fault with the machine work because I only mentioned the scuffed pistons the first time I met with the machinist and I had scotch brited the scuff marks making them hard to see. I asked him when I picked up the block if there were certain bores that the pistons needed to be installed in and he said no. I blew it off just wanting to get the thing together. It wasn't until later that I realized he had also mentioned using one piston for bore size, I'm sure he thought all the pistons were good. For now I will have to deal with the obnoxious piston. Wont hurt anything I hope.

[speedfreek500]

Did anybody else notice that the head did not have the bleed hole in the t-stat housing at the top?

I wonder if its a chinese head and the lifter bores are all not the same depth, Did you measre down the lifter bore to the step?

[shackwrrr]

Did anybody else notice that the head did not have the bleed hole in the t-stat housing at the top?

I wonder if its a chinese head and the lifter bores are all not the same depth, Did you measre down the lifter bore to the step?

Its just an early swirl head, 88 I believe.

[turbovanman²]

It won't hurt anything, ran mine like that for years, I probably had double the stock spec, lol.

I had my last set of pistons expanded when I lost an injector, worked like a charm, I doubt anyone would knurl them anymore.

[The Pope]

The easiest way to remove a PT washer, the lower seated washer is with a standard #2 screw driver, stick it in the hole and tilt it.

The easiest way to check and see if you have a lifter noise problem is to run the car, to know the washers are seated. Then turn the cam by hand till your off the lobes and see if they move.

Cams ware, even on the base circle. Same with the followers and the valve tips. You need to check them just like you would check lash on any engine with hydraulic lifters.

Lastly, crap in the head will plug a PT lifter. On an older engine running a half quart of Marvel Mystery Oil in the crank case can eat the crud causing poor flow to the lifters. If crud got in the lifters MMO often will clean them.

On a bad lobe, you can run 3 washers. But on an old head the tolerance gets wider and the lifter bores leak more, so more than 2 washers should be considered a temp move. Not an every day plan.

[shackwrrr]

The PO used bigger washers that a screwdriver wouldn't grab. I will try the lifters again once I get a good cam and roller set. There is an 88 lebaron tbi in the junkyard, I'll have to see if the stuff is still good.