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View Full Version : Combinations Windage Tray/Crank Scraper/Pan Baffle



supercrackerbox
10-10-2012, 01:52 PM
I copied this over here per 86Shelby's suggestion.

Now first of all, I'm not much of a fabricator, nor do I claim to be. I'm just a dip with a bench vise and a welder who can't leave well enough alone. Therefore, any critiques and suggestions would be appreciated.


This all started off as an Ishara-Johnson crank scraper that I got from FWDP. Now ideally the windage tray would have been a simple one-piece design that bolted to the block. But since my engine is an '89 TIV, there are no provisions for balance shafts, leaving no extra holes to bolt anything to, and I was hesitant to use the main cap hardware for anything. The other option would have been to weld something into the pan, but the part I don't like about that is the rather large hole needed for the oil pump pickup. Therefore I came up with a side skirt welded to each rail of the scraper, and a plate to cover the gap between. This will allow me to position each scraper independantly as needed, and still mount the pickup without the big hole.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/windagetray.jpg

Now as you can see in this teaser pic from last week, this does end up covering pretty much everything, meaning all the oil draining back from the head would wind up in the windage tray before it reached the pan. I originally planned a series of louvres for each skirt, but my tools and skills were severely lacking. Therefore I drilled two rows of large holes in each side, and covered them with some perforated sheet that I got from work.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/IMG_3531.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/IMG_3532.jpg

Please forgive the welds between the skirts and scrapers; the scrapers are considerably thicker than the 22 gauge sheet I'm using, making welding a bit tricky. They're not pretty, but I asure you they will hold. I also tack welded the bolts that will hold the bottom tray, as there will be no access for a wrench once the sides are in place. I positioned the bolts in line with the three middle main caps to ensure they would not contact the rotating assembly. The nuts I'm using have scalloped flanges, and I'll be using Loc-Tite to ensure that they won't come loose.


I also saw fit to add a baffle for the turbo oil return.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/IMG_3533.jpg

Now since this will all be going into a deep-sump 2.2 pan, I don't know that baffles will be necessary or even helpful, but I figure they certainly can't hurt. I don't forsee the car being able to accelerate or brake hard enough to cause an oil issue, so I just focused on the side-to-side. I formed two baffles to fit the bottom of the pan (more or less) with hinges on the bottom plate. The pan itself actually stops them from swinging the wrong direction, but I added the 90° braces just as a precaution.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/IMG_3534.jpg

You can also see that I provided a hole for the dipstick, something that was lacking on my old MP "autocross" oil pan.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/IMG_3535.jpg

Now in this pic, you can see somewhat of a gap between the skirts and the plate. I simply placed some thick washers under the plate. This will provide drainage for the oil that makes it past the drain holes above. Yes, there could be times where the oil washes up through the gap, but I think the plate will at least calm it down to where the oil doesn't splash onto the crank itself. Thoughts?

Here's how it all sits in the pan:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/IMG_3536.jpg

And shots of the baffles:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/IMG_3538.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/IMG_3537.jpg

They are not a perfect fit, but I'd rather have a slight gap than have them drag on the pan and not do their job, or worse yet, bind up and prevent oil from reaching the pickup.


And that's about it! Now to wash it all thoroughly in the parts washer, and finally seal up the bottom of the engine again.

zin
10-10-2012, 03:58 PM
Looks fantastic to me! Seems you've covered just about all the bases for oil control. My only concern, and it is likely just the angle of the pictures, is that there is sufficient room between everything for the oil to make its way back to the pan once it's slung off the crank... Other than that, I might have added something up front to help with sloshing under heavy braking, but if you're mainly drag that I wouldn't think that to be a big deal.

Gotta be one of the best set-ups I've seen!

Mike

supercrackerbox
10-11-2012, 02:02 AM
The gap between the side skirts and the bottom plate is about 1/16". I could easily open it up more, although I may have to trim the hinged baffles slightly. How much do you think I should need? My hope is that the majority of the oil would flow through the screens up top.

RoadWarrior222
10-11-2012, 10:15 AM
Well you know why they call a bottleneck a bottleneck? That's 'coz even if you take some water, (which is really runny, if you live in Az and haven't seen it before) , and fill up a wine bottle, and flip it upside down, it will still come out relatively slowly with a glug, glug, glug... Now that might be a bad example due to pressure equalisation issues, but you'd want to ensure a big enough gap that an oil film moving under gravity on each surface won't tend to "meet in the middle" and bridge the gap, backing up flow and impeding drainage.

Anyway, difficult to find hard figures on that, gut feeling would be 60 thou each side at least which is more like an eighth of an inch.

Oils are designed to be highly polar and cling to metals in a motor, this is all well and good on the parts that NEED lubrication, but not good where they don't or where you just want it to run freely... now if you remember, things are attracted to opposite polarity and repelled from like polarity. So some coating that is the same polarity of the oil will repel it, cause it to bead up and and skitter off, water off a ducks back is the exact expression to use, because the duck has oiled up it's feathers with secretions that are as highly polarised as water, in the same polarity. Tough stuff to find though that will hold up to engine heat and hot oil... some kind of silicone spray might do the trick... or teflon...

Thing you don't hear much about teflon is that because it's non stick, it's hard to get it to stick to something, being something that you would like it to stick to and protect... this would be why then that abrading/smearing it into a surface is about as effective as any other method of applying it... Three ways of doing this, bead blasting with it (at as much pressure as you can manage) buying round furniture slider pads and using them on a high speed drill like a sanding pad, or mummifying a dowel with plumbers tape (wrap opp to rotation) and using that in a high speed drill..... what you'd do is just smear it into the surfaces you want to shed oil quick, at a speed that avoids burning it (Yah 50,000rpm would be overkill) then rub in with a dry cloth or buffer.... and you've teflon coated something. Run water over it, watch it bead...

That's just a snippet to use to enhance performance if you want... probably just a "feels good to do a little extra" thing rather than something that will add huge amounts of performance... though done to the crank could enhance performance of the scraper.

supercrackerbox
10-11-2012, 10:25 AM
Ok, so I should open that up some more, no problem.

Does anyone have some thoughts on Glyptol? A small can would double what I've spent on this, but that's not saying much. :p

RoadWarrior222
10-11-2012, 10:46 AM
That should also be polar and allow film shedding, don't use on anything that needs the oil either for cooling or lube, (i.e. backside of your piston if you have squirters)

Most guys seem to assume it's best use is for block sealing, which would be an issue mostly encountered with cast metal and alloys. They equate it's oil flow properties with "shinyness" here...
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/paitning-your-inner-engine-glyptal-paint-95612.html

GLHS60
10-11-2012, 12:14 PM
Looks good. Is the screen you used the one way or directional style?

Thanks
Randy

supercrackerbox
10-11-2012, 12:20 PM
Unfortunately no.

ajakeski
10-15-2012, 06:01 PM
Very Nice.

supercrackerbox
10-16-2012, 03:34 AM
looks good, but just out of curiosity, have you test fit the pan yet with the pick up tube bolted up to the oil pump?? It doesnt look like there is enough room for the pick up tube to clear your assembly....
edit: nevermind, just noticed the first pic....lol. hopefully it goes on smooth, the last picture does not look like you will have the room to maneuver.

I'll be sure to double check that when I put it on. I need to spend some time with it in the parts washer first, there was a fair amount of cutting/drilling/grinding done and I need to make sure all the metal fragments are gone before it meets up with the engine again.

forcedfedmopar
10-16-2012, 08:39 PM
you can come test it on my test engine.....then leave it and go home.

supercrackerbox
10-17-2012, 03:18 AM
I wouldn't even attempt something like this with an engine still in the car. Besides, you're running the 2.5 pan.

Don't worry, we'll get something set up for you.

supercrackerbox
10-25-2012, 05:10 AM
Got the assembly cleaned and bolted to the engine tonight. I only have a couple cell phone pics; I didn't have my camera at the shop.

Better view of the gap between the bottom plate and side skirts:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/windage5.jpg

I think this will be plenty of room for oil drainage.



Overall view, showing plenty of clearance between the flaps and the pickup tube:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o298/supercrackerbox/GLHS/windage4.jpg



Both flaps can make the full swing without snagging on the pickup tube.

Reaper1
10-25-2012, 05:44 AM
I like this design! Very nice! I might just flatter you by using your idea for inspiration for my own that I intend to build!

zin
10-25-2012, 03:29 PM
Looks like you have the whole package there! Looks like a winner!

Mike

turbovanmanČ
10-25-2012, 04:44 PM
Warren uses glyptol to help with oil control too.

Great design but I don't think you have enough drains so to speak. If you look at any baffled setup, they leave the bottom virtually open due to the shear volume of oil.

supercrackerbox
10-26-2012, 01:41 PM
Perhaps you're right. I wish there was a way to physically watch it working, but short of a polycarbonate oil pan, I don't see a way. I guess I could pull the bottom plate off and run a row of large holes on each side just off set of the edges of the side skirts (roughly in line with the bolt holes). That would allow quicker exit of the fluid but still protect against direct splash-back.

turbovanmanČ
10-26-2012, 02:29 PM
You could, make a plexi glass oil pan or add windows to yours and watch it, :p

Sounds like a good idea, :nod:

zin
10-26-2012, 02:42 PM
Two words: Plexiglass Window.

To be really cool you'd add LED lights inside to more easily see!

OR.... Set up the assembly in the pan, then dump a ridiculous amount of the oil of your chosen weight onto/into the assembly and see how quick it makes it though... Just eyeball engineering it I think there's plenty of space for the oil to get where it needs to go, but nothing beats a real world simulation.

Mike

Reaper1
10-26-2012, 04:12 PM
Blast from the past:

Ed Peters mentioned that they were studying the effects of windage in engines on the engine dyno at Chrysler. He said they put plexi windows in the oil pans and used a timing light to see what was going on. His description of the oil around the crank at high rpm was "cotton candy"! He also mentioned that when the crank is spinning at high rpm, it can create enough "suction" to actually lift oil out of the pan and "suck" it up into the mess already on the crank being whipped around.

This being said, having the ability to not only scrape the oil off of the crank, but get it away from the assembly as quick as possible and KEEP it away (hence the whole purpose of this project) is paramount. I'd say making sure to have enough drainage on the down-rotating side of the crank, and baffles to keep the drainback oil from the head away from the crank would do well in achieving this goal.

turbovanmanČ
10-26-2012, 06:16 PM
Seriously though, with today's adhesives, adding a window or too wouldn't be that hard plus with the one piece gasket, if its a CB, makes changing pans relatively painless.

ShelGame
10-26-2012, 08:24 PM
Just put a GoPro (with the waterproof housing, of course) and a LED flashlight in the pan...

turbovanmanČ
10-26-2012, 08:27 PM
Just put a GoPro (with the waterproof housing, of course) and a LED flashlight in the pan...

You try it first, :D

135sohc
10-26-2012, 10:53 PM
http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/oem/gauges.cfm Add a row of sight gauges.

RoadWarrior222
10-26-2012, 11:00 PM
Midget... in a heatproof frogsuit.

Reaper1
10-27-2012, 03:12 AM
midget... In a heatproof frogsuit.

rotflmao!! :lol:

ShelGame
10-27-2012, 12:38 PM
You try it first, :D

I might - Now that the Hero3 is out, I want one of those. I'd be willing to try and mount my old Hero in the oil pan. I've been wanting to build a windage tray myself for years. Just haven't had an excuse to break the seal on my oil pan. The trick will be finding a spot to mount it where it won't get hit by anything and can still see the crank and tray.

supercrackerbox
10-27-2012, 03:42 PM
Seriously though, with today's adhesives, adding a window or too wouldn't be that hard plus with the one piece gasket, if its a CB, makes changing pans relatively painless.

After originally mocking up the scrapers, I don't think the one-piece gasket would seal very well without copious amounts of RTV at the ends of the rails. At that point I might as well save myself $30 and just use the traditional end pieces and RTV on the rails.

RoadWarrior222
10-27-2012, 07:21 PM
Yah, know what I was thinking about the other day for a crank wiper... those silicone basting brushes you can get from dollar stores, two for a buck, they're about an inch wide, so you'd want to spend about 8 bucks I guess...

Also have some fine perforated mesh I picked up from a dollar store in the craft section, might think of using that for a baffle/tray... it's like that perforated mesh you use for plaster only the holes are tiny..