oil pump install

[TurboII]

So I narrowed my 88 lebaron to a bad oil pump. Kinda bumped cause I replaced it when I had the engine a few years back. Getting no oil pressure at warm idle. Not only did I have my digital gauge hooked up, I had a machinical one too while on a test drive. But my question is what are the pros and cons on pump install. First step I bought a mellings cause I read every where on the forum that melling is the way to go. But I couldn't get a cast aluminum I could only find cast iron. Anyways help install this pump correctly, maybe i fudge something up the first time

88 turbo lebaron coupe
2.5 common block s60

[roachjuice]

Pretty straight forward. Drain oil. Jack car up. Take down oil pan. Take old pump out. Put new pick up and pump in.
Question: is this a 2.2 or 2.5? Reason I ask is because 2.5 has balance shafts. If you took the balance shafts out the oil feed hole could be bleeding pressure off.

[roachjuice]

Nevermind. Just saw you have a common block 2.5. If your balance shafts are out check that oil feed hole and make sure it's blocked off.

[TurboII]

The machine shop welded the hole shut . I made sure of that from the beginning

[trannybuster]

Find a good used mopar unit with the cast aluminum body and check it per the fsm. Oil pumps rarely go bad, would dbl check other issues first.

[TurboII]

Find a good used mopar unit with the cast aluminum body and check it per the fsm. Oil pumps rarely go bad, would dbl check other issues first.

Yea I defininitly need to check that out in the fsm. But as of now I need to get this pump in because I'm.trying to get to the the track Saturday. When I drop the pan I'm gonna check out whats going on

[TurboII]

How would I know if I have the right pick up for my common block? How much clearance would I be looking for. Also when I was reading the instructions for the pump it says mounting surface may need to be re resurfaced? Is this true

[roachjuice]

Na. If it looks flat it should be fine. I've never heard of resurfacing where the oil pump goes. On the 2.5 pick up it is pretty long iirc.

[TurboII]

It just weird what the car is doing. I just hope is something easily fixed

[turbovanman²]

What are your readings hot and cold. 99% of the time, no oil pressure at idle is bearing related. To test this, put in thick oil, IE 20w50, if you have oil pressure at idle, bearings are worn.

I would reinstall the BS carrier minus the guts, that way it acts as a windage tray. The oil pump pickup should extend past the carrier, so going from memory, its aprox 5" deep, so the pickup would probably be 6" long.

Check the auxillary shaft gear for pitting or wear, put some anerobic sealer on the mating surfaces, don't use RTV.

[TurboII]

i have 15w40 in their right now. its a freshly rebuilt engine not even 4000 miles on it im almost positive it isnt bearing. i did us rtv tho so im wondering if something got clogged up or the screen is clogged but im sure its not bearing. at cold start its at 60 psi at warm idle its at 0. and i cant put the bs back in cause the oil passage hole is welded shut from the machine shop

[turbovanman²]

i have 15w40 in their right now. its a freshly rebuilt engine not even 4000 miles on it im almost positive it isnt bearing. i did us rtv tho so im wondering if something got clogged up or the screen is clogged but im sure its not bearing. at cold start its at 60 psi at warm idle its at 0. and i cant put the bs back in cause the oil passage hole is welded shut from the machine shop

Ok, well check the bearings for sure, its rare to have good oil pressure cold and the pump is faulty.

You gut the BS assembly and just install the cage, acts as a windage tray. IF the weld is in the way, just modify the leg with the hole to clear the weld.

[TurboII]

but that means i have to buy a 2.5 oil pan and pick up + bs asssembly now i already swapped it over to 2.2 oil pan and screen. i have a funny feeling that something is clogging up the pump. it is a seal power pump for that matter and i heard to buy mopar or mellings. i bet it makes no different in brand for that matter but i dont like seal power crap

joey

[turbovanman²]

Well if you have the shallow pan then your ok then. Most leave the CB pan on and it can create oil starvation issues.

[TurboII]

So I took apart the pump and found out that the oring was pretty banged up like it was squashed. I also found that the pump itself spun kinda rough. Like it had a drag and one spot on the rotation had a crunch. But visually their was nothing that stood out at me about the pump like their were know Rubbing marks or anything. I have pictured of the o ring but I have to reset my password on photo bucket.

[roachjuice]

Hopefully a new pump will fix it. These old engines are pretty tough. They take a beating. :)

[TurboII]

sorry for the long delay i was waiting for photobcuket

well pretty much this is how the o ring looked when i took it out
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss202/TurboII/20121003_172909.jpg
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss202/TurboII/20121003_172953.jpg

[turbovanman²]

It could have been that but then the cold oil pressure would have sucked too. Did you check the bearings yet?

[TurboII]

no i haven yet, But what size is the o ring on the screen pick tube if any one knows?

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ----------

is it ok for me to take each bearing cap off one by one? or do i have to do a sequence? im sorry for asking newb question but i hate messing with crank/cam bearings. also am i checking the main and rods or both? and one more final question what should i be looking for?

thanks Joey

[turbovanman²]

no i haven yet, But what size is the o ring on the screen pick tube if any one knows?

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ----------

is it ok for me to take each bearing cap off one by one? or do i have to do a sequence? im sorry for asking newb question but i hate messing with crank/cam bearings. also am i checking the main and rods or both? and one more final question what should i be looking for?

thanks Joey

Not sure on the size, you can buy them from Dodge or go to parts store and match it up.

You can do them one by one, no particular order, make sure the caps are marked so you can put them back in the same spot. Bearings should be a dull gray/silver, any brass or coppor colour and they are trash. Yep, check mains too except you won't be able to check #5, or the one at the flywheel end, retainer covers the bolts.

[zin]

Be sure the caps not only go on the same spot but also are put back in the same orientation (left side on the left kind of thing).

Mike

[TurboII]

Definitly ill put it the way it came out. I hate taking bearings out tho.
Lol

[TurboII]

ill be damned turbovanman i do have bad bearing. pulled the main on number two and found a bad main bearing. im kinda mad now cause its a freshly built motor and i dont wanna deal with this crap now
here is just the picture of number two

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss202/TurboII/20121005_092331-1.jpg

[turbovanman²]

That's not that bad, I've seen alot worse. I would replace them of course and put a new oil pump in. Try to find a good used OE pump, mucho better. What do the rod bearings look like?

[TurboII]

Once I saw that bearing I was to my breaking point. What I finally came down to was parting it out keep the good stuff sell the stuff I don't need and junk the shell

[turbovanman²]

That sucks, RIP, :(

[TurboII]

That sucks, RIP, :(

I Ben giving it some thought I'm gonna give it one more try

[roachjuice]

I Ben giving it some thought I'm gonna give it one more try

I go through the "f**k this s**t!!!" thing every week. :)

[turbovanman²]

I Ben giving it some thought I'm gonna give it one more try

Sweet. Check rod bearings. :thumb:

[inmyshadow]

Thats the spirit.

I know there isn't much of a berlin turnpike anymore, but it was nice to have one more turbododge throwing down.


I Ben giving it some thought I'm gonna give it one more try

[TurboII]

Well since I have to take the crank out I'm thinking of putting the four bolt main caps, any one every run them

[turbovanman²]

Well since I have to take the crank out I'm thinking of putting the four bolt main caps, any one every run them

Why are you taking the crank out and if you are, you have to pull the engine, it won't come out with the engine installed and trans installed.

4 bolt main caps? Unless your making 500 or more whp and or revving it constantly to 7000+ rpm, its not needed, its also alot of money due to machining etc.

[TurboII]

Why are you taking the crank out and if you are, you have to pull the engine, it won't come out with the engine installed and trans installed.

4 bolt main caps? Unless your making 500 or more whp and or revving it constantly to 7000+ rpm, its not needed, its also alot of money due to machining etc.

i realized that when i took a second look, i was hoping to get a away with snugging the tranny back some to clear some space to get the clutch/flywheel out but itll still be even more of a hastle no matter what. I was gonna do a four bolt main for extra hp/tq security. Im taking the crank out to have my machinist look at wtf happened to see if maybe we missed something I.E under cut, to much tolerance in the bearing clearnace and what not. the crank i bought as a kit from turbosunleashed and it came with bearing and a fresh cut crank, so i dont know what happened.

Joey

[TurboII]

any one know the part number to the mopar pump?

[trannybuster]

the mp units are melling pumps pull one from a used engine and check it per fsm.....that way you get a mp unit,it should have a aluminium body, is your pump even bad, did you check it?

[trannybuster]

ihow bout some pics of bearings,would tell us if it was poor installation, no such thing as to clean.....I once got 'one' std bearing in full set of .25mm bearings but I check every one so no issue. Was the engine primed well? If everything mesures okay you shouldnt of had an issue.my point being somewhere along the line it wasnt done correctly....

---------- Post added at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------

ah i see the pic, agreed it doesnt look that bad and it appears it was clean when installed, good on that!

[black86glhs]

How long did it sit after being built? 2 engines ago I lost that one to not priming it very well before starting, even with assembly lube.
An old engine builder told me years ago to use molybdenum grease to put an engine together with if it might sit for more than a few days. It won't run out like assembly lube can. You just have to change the oil filter soon after startup since molybdenum clogs filters.
This may have had nothing to do with it, but wanted to throw it out there.

[TurboII]

The pump was bad. Had a crushed o ring, pump didn't spin smooth had some drag and one spot had a crunch noise. I pulled one bearing out and found copper. I will get more pictures up when I take the engine out. When I put the motor in and i primed it for sure but it always had a noise that I could never explain and now that I think about it it could of Ben the crank moving around. But I don't no what the machine shop did

[black86glhs]

Bad pump, not much you can do if you didn't know. Thankfully it doesn't look horrible.

[zin]

sounds like it picked up a piece of "crap" that it couldn't "digest"... When that happened to one of my engines (I wasn't driving), it locked it up and ate the IM shaft and the gear on the pump...

BTW, is the gear serviceable by itself? Not that I can re-use the pump, it's wasted, but I'm curious for future reference.

Mike

[trannybuster]

The gear can be pressed off then back on, I would use some retaining compound if I were to do this. Good to see you making progress, dont lose heart, once its back together right it wont be an issue again. IMO find a good used Mopar unit and reuse it, its easier on the gears plus the old pumps nearly always checked out right at factory spec's...not to mention the money could be used elsewhere!!!

[TurboII]

The gear can be pressed off then back on, I would use some retaining compound if I were to do this. Good to see you making progress, dont lose heart, once its back together right it wont be an issue again. IMO find a good used Mopar unit and reuse it, its easier on the gears plus the old pumps nearly always checked out right at factory spec's...not to mention the money could be used elsewhere!!!

i scored a mopar oil pump from inmyshadow for ten bucks, in working order!. i haven't removed the engine yet cause i have a home renovating project going on. But my goal is to just take the engine out for now and put it in my basement sometime this week. i just want the motor out and i can work on the engine in my basement. cold is coming in fast. but what i don't get is why is the old mopar pump better then new melling what is the different, workmanship?

also, does mopar still carry genuine crankshaft? just in case my crank is done for

Joey

[trannybuster]

Well every one Ive checked that came from a running engine have all checked perfectly on clearence, so why spend big money on new one, there is simply no need. Also IMO the melling puts more load on the factory gears due to its high volume nature....my engine is highly modded and I have lost two melling pump/gears which in turn destroys the intermediate shafts. I went to the junkyard and found two used ones for back ups, got them for 10.00 each, both checked spot on to fsm. So far I havent failed another shaft or pump...to be fair I did case harden the intermediate shaft gear. Some say melling gear is too soft, I havent checked Rockwell, maybe it is...maybe it isnt....again used Mopar units cheap why chance it.

[TurboII]

I noticed the mellings is heavier then the mopar pump, obviously the mopar made of aluminum but that was my most noticeable difference . Even being a used Mopar pump it spun more freely then the new melling. I'm going to check the specs on the Mopar one.

[turbovanman²]

I believe you can buy new gears at Autozone or Napa, that's what I'll do when I run out of good pumps, lol.

[TurboII]

Updates: sorry been busy with the house. but i managed to get the motor out today. its in my basement awaiting to take it apart and find the mishap.

[Directconnection]

iI was gonna do a four bolt main for extra hp/tq security. Im taking the crank out to have my machinist look at wtf happened to see if maybe we missed something I.E under cut, to much tolerance in the bearing clearnace and what not. the crank i bought as a kit from turbosunleashed and it came with bearing and a fresh cut crank, so i dont know what happened.

Joey

You don't need 4 bolt mains. You had a failure due to something else other than the factory 2-bolt. If you had 4 bolt mains when you did this motor before... it still would have failed. Check the housing bores on the block for size.

[TurboII]

You don't need 4 bolt mains. You had a failure due to something else other than the factory 2-bolt. If you had 4 bolt mains when you did this motor before... it still would have failed. Check the housing bores on the block for size.

oh yea i know that, but while i had the the motor out i was gonna do a four bolt main setup anyway but decided not too. i will spec everything out to see what happned. could boiled down to a bad oil pump